The X in SpaceX

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clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 28, 2015 - 07:49am PT
SpaceX's Falcon 9 rocket broke up just minutes after its launch with a robotic Drago cargo capsule for the International Space Station, NASA said.

The Falcon took off right on time, rising into the sunny skies over Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florda at 10:21 a.m. ET. But shortly afterward, NASA spokesman George Diller reported that the launch vehicle was lost.
BREAKING
SCIENCE
JUN 28 2015, 10:36 AM ET
SpaceX Rocket Breaks Up After Launch With Space Station Cargo, NASA Says
The mission's primary objective was to deliver the Dragon to the space station with more than two and a half tons of supplies, equipment and experiments — ranging from a new docking adapter for accommodating future U.S.-built spaceships to a virtual-reality headset for the station's crew.

This was to have been the first robotic cargo delivery since a Russian Progress capsule went awry in April, resulting in the loss of the craft's 3-ton payload. The Dragon's payload includes food, oxygen and other much-needed basics — and its loss will put even more pressure on the crew and mission planners.

The Dragon previously made six successful cargo runs under the terms of a $1.6 billion contract with NASA, plus an initial demonstration mission in 2012. Sunday's loss marked SpaceX's first failed mission to the space station.

Space is as dangerous as BASE jumping. Good thing it was not manned. We are going to Mars with rockets blowing up still?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 28, 2015 - 08:19am PT
I wish I could think of a bigger waste of money but I can't, other than the Pentagon.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
Sunday was Musk's 44th birthday. The SpaceX founder also runs his electric car company, Tesla.
"Yeah, not the best birthday," Musk tweeted.

One expensive trick candle.

Data stopped flowing from the Falcon 9 rocket around 2 minutes and 19 seconds, he said.
SpaceX founder and chief executive Elon Musk later said that the pressure got too high in the liquid-oxygen tank of the rocket's upper stage.
"That's all we can say with confidence right now," Musk said via Twitter.
The private company is in charge of the accident investigation, with oversight from the Federal Aviation Administration, which licensed the flight.
The Dragon capsule, which is designed to eventually carry people, still sent signals to the ground after the rocket broke apart, said SpaceX President Gwynne Shotwell. Had astronauts been on board, a still-being tested abort system, would have whisked them away to safety in such a mishap, she said.
SpaceX hopes to launch astronauts from U.S. soil again aboard the Falcon-Dragon combination in December 2017. They still can make that target, Shotwell said. Now NASA buys seats from Russia to get astronauts to the orbiting lab.
Shotwell assured reporters that the California-based company will fix the problem - "and get back to flight."

A hunting safari for the blind might be safer. Whisked away?
jstan

climber
Jun 28, 2015 - 10:34pm PT
Apollo 13
Later NASA contracts were required to follow very tight Mission Assurance protocols that made building hardware seem close to impossible. Oxygen was a huge problem in the Mercury program also. Three dead there.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/apollo-13-the-mistakes-the-explosion-and-six-hours-of-live-saving-decisions/2/

45 years after Apollo 13: Ars looks at what went wrong and why
You’ve probably seen the film—but the reality is a lot more complicated.

by Lee Hutchinson - Apr 16, 2015 6:00am PDT

What happened in space

Liquefied cryogens like liquid oxygen tend to "stratify" in microgravity—that is, without gravity to hold them down, they separate out into various layers and spread around inside a given volume. When that volume is the inside of a tank, the stratification makes it difficult to measure the tank’s fill level. So the Apollo service module’s oxygen tanks included a set of internal fans—little paddle-like impellers—to stir the tanks’ contents into a more uniform mass for quantity measurements.

These "cryo stir" operations were carried out with regularity throughout every Apollo flight. What no one knew was that on Apollo 13, each cryo stir was a potential catastrophe in the making. Every time Tank 2’s fans were triggered, current raced through the damaged wires.

At 56 hours in, command module pilot Jack Swigert performed a planned cryo stir. It’s theorized that a spark from a damaged wire ignited a piece of Teflon insulation in Tank 2. The Teflon burned very rapidly in the oxygen-thick environment, causing a near-instant pressure spike within the tank up to 6,000 psi (about 41 MPa). This quickly overwhelmed not only the capacity of the tank’s overpressure relief valve, but the structural integrity of the tank itself.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jun 28, 2015 - 11:00pm PT

Jun 28, 2015 - 08:19am PT
I wish I could think of a bigger waste of money but I can't, other than the Pentagon.

Oil depletion allowance
Paying farmers not to grow crops.
Sugar beet subsidy.
TSA
The wall at the Mexican border.


And the winner is....

The bomb shelter for Congress under the Greenbriar hotel.
couchmaster

climber
Jun 29, 2015 - 06:18am PT
Reilly said:

Reilly said -quote:
"I wish I could think of a bigger waste of money but I can't, other than the Pentagon."

A significant percentage of the space program expenditure is defense related. As such, I don't agree Reilly. There is plenty of wasted US military money in weapons and global imperialism. Our military is in 130 countries, we could save craploads by pulling troops out of most of them for instance.

Given that new disruptive technology often wins the next war that is just around the corner. (ie, WW1, WW2--->coming up) It seems to me that our country's very safety and security is directly related to who controls space. Does anyone prefer it to not be us, but some other country? North Korea, or China perhaps? The government is trying to keep costs down while still developing our war ability in space, and space X is part of that cost cutting/public-private investment partnership. It is critically valuable for us all. Good on the Obama Administration for doing it.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 29, 2015 - 09:15am PT
I thought that WE invented rockets that didn't explode, back in like 1964....

So space X is reinventing the Ford Falcon????

Sad example of the decline of the USA.

jstan

climber
Jun 29, 2015 - 09:34am PT
Neil DeGrasse Tyson's response to this topic. He "goes off"on topics all the while laughing at himself. while we enjoy the trip. Whether you agree or disagree it is always fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIZU8cQWXc



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 29, 2015 - 09:38am PT
Moosie, the space program is just one chunk of the military-industrial-congressional complex.
I thought you were a peacenik? Besides, if we need to know about space it's a lot cheaper
to just ask Werner, isn't it? Furthermore, it's quite clear that the aliens don't want to have
anything to do with us. Who could blame them?
couchmaster

climber
Jun 29, 2015 - 10:10am PT

In the 30's, Winston Churchill thought that Britain could avoid the next war forming with Germany if they would better prepare for it. It turned out to so. As Churchill indicated, one can be a "peacenik" opposed to disarmament and want to have a staunch defense. "If you wish peace, then prepare for war" was one of his favorites, although the saying predates him by a couple thousand years.

Winston Churchill said:
"This truth may be unfashionable, unpalatable, no doubt unpopular, but, if it is the truth, the story of mankind shows that war was universal and unceasing for millions of years before armaments were invented or armies organized. Indeed, the lucid intervals of peace and order only occurred in human history after armaments in the hands of strong governments have come into being, and civilization in every age has been nursed only in cradles guarded by superior weapons and superior discipline."

Closer to home:
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace. -George Washington"

From my view, Teddy Roosevelt had it on the money when he said: "Walk softly, but carry a big stick".



Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 29, 2015 - 10:20am PT
So space X is reinventing the Ford Falcon????

They're buying old Russian engines for $1M instead of buying new US one's for around $20M. You get what you pay for. Gotta wonder what the payload was worth.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 29, 2015 - 10:23am PT
Furthermore, it's quite clear that the aliens don't want to have
anything to do with us. Who could blame them?

They're just waiting while more an more of us get nice and fat and juicy. They'll be here soon enough. Best to be scrawny and unappetizing.
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2015 - 10:27am PT
The whole space program is a complete failure.

The fools only got some stoopid fake orange juice out of it called Tang after spending trillions.

For the materially conditioned earthlings there's no escape from planet earth by their materially conditioned earthling bodies.

Stooopid scientists will still take your hard earned money to be wasted trying .....
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:06am PT
Elon has enough money that he can afford to look far into the future, to think of his personal legacy and the legacy of humanity, and he is investing himself in that vision that will one day benefit our descendants.

To make practical advancements- not just in ability to do something first, but to do it cost-effectively in a manner that facilitates practical use of the technology- to make such advancements, there are bound to be numerous setbacks. Successful people know how to learn from such mistakes, solve the problems encountered, and go on to greater things. Small minded people focus on the failures, reinforcing their acceptance and even celebration of mediocrity, their acceptance of being confined by traditions and boundaries and living at the mercy of mysterious forces rather than being active agents of our own fate. Should we sit in the rain in a puddle because god wills it or should we learn to build a shelter? I'm glad some of our ancestors had vision, and I'm glad some humans today do as well.

I just got back from 2 weeks sleeping under the stars across the southwestern US, and loved every moment of it. And I come home to a roof that I appreciate more than when I left. I like taking breaks from technology, and I like returning to it. Experiencing each end of the spectrum makes me appreciate them both the more. I think the ends of the spectrum will keep broadening over time, and our ability to appreciate each end will continue growing.
jstan

climber
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:39am PT
We have to await SpaceX's event report but past history suggests we have a persistent problem with transporting liquid oxygen in the weightless environment. Making up little fans out of combustable materials and putting them in the oxygen seems a poor way to go.

If we could get UV into the tank without also putting combustable materials in there, might we get changes in translational energy by putting LED's inside that emit in the UV, and apply a time varying electrostatic field? Can't do that, of course, if the metallic tank acts as a Faraday Cage. Any evaporated electrode inside would have to use an insulator, also inside. Noncombustible insulator?

On the other hand oxygen is a diatomic molecule possessing a magnetic moment. It won/t do a lot of good lining up those moments if we don't affect translational energy. But again the metallic tank presents a problem.

Suppose we make a sufficiently strong ceramic tank out of a ceramic that itself has magnetic properties. Dope it with iron aligned to a magnetic field? If the tank has a north and a south pole configuration the second law says there will be mixing between the two moments in the oxygen at the interface. 3D plasma deposition printing with iron doping to make the tank?

Maybe SpaceX is already trying to do some such?
TLP

climber
Jun 29, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
KSolem wrote:
They're buying old Russian engines for $1M instead of buying new US one's for around $20M. You get what you pay for.

That's Orbital Sciences who buys the old refurbished Russian rocket engines, for their Antares rockets (one of which blew up just above the launch pad, a couple of months ago, kinda looks like an engine failure). The SpaceX engines are made in house.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 29, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
I wish I could think of a bigger waste of money but I can't, other than the Pentagon.

Truly....

Imagine where we could be if the human race could focus it's collective profits on infecting a new space rock instead of killing each other here for an ever dwindling supply of resources.

But really the first step is cracking the warp problem. Without that we're not heading anywhere.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jun 29, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
Soyuz rockets fly on liquid oxygen since 1966. It is not rocket since.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 29, 2015 - 01:23pm PT
THe Ol Boys from North Amerian Rockwell- Rocketdyne division could teach the SpaceX guys a thing or two.

Not for long...

Edit
That's Orbital Sciences who buys the old refurbished Russian rocket engines

Ooops. Brain fart. Thanks.

There's a book called "The Engines That Came in From The Cold." Now it's all over as TV docs etc. Pretty interesting story there.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 29, 2015 - 04:03pm PT
Whole lot of misinformation here. Rocketry is hard. Both liquid and solid engines.
Certainly they weren't perfected back in the 1960s. Both we and the Russians have had many issues since then. Both on rockets intended for space, and ICBMs. Google "Titan Damascus incident". Or the Challenger disaster.
There will be accidents. But I'm fairly confident SpaceX will improve reliability and lower costs. And going into space does provide value. Do none of you complainers ever use GPS?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 29, 2015 - 04:08pm PT
Do none of you complainers ever use GPS?

Yes! Cause the wife makes me! That sh!t sucks and it's expensive!
It's way more fun gettin' lost for free!
Alex Baker

climber
Portland
Jun 29, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
I think SpaceX and NASA are doing some of the most rad things humans have ever done. They are enabling the cutting edge of modern exploration, and broadening the human experience immensely.

I was very fortunate to have a quick conversation with an astronaut who visited my college. He said he thinks "adventure starts when your intuition no longer applies". Those guys are having some real adventures.

AB
okie

Trad climber
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
Yeah, ask Werner, after all he's Hitler's rocket man and the father of our space program...wait, maybe that was another Braun?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jun 30, 2015 - 12:19am PT


The fools only got some stoopid fake orange juice out of it called Tang after spending trillions.

For the materially conditioned earthlings there's no escape from planet earth by their materially conditioned earthling bodies


Aw, Werner, that's not so! We got the space pen and freeze dried ice cream, too.

Yum!
But that cell phone you use wouldn't be around if it wasn't for the integrated circuit, which was first viably developed for Apollo mission computers.

And it's easy for a duck to lecture humans on escaping the bonds of Earth.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 30, 2015 - 07:56am PT
And GPS wasn't invented by or for the space business it was invented by the US Air Force
so they could bomb yer ass within millimeters. All that other shizz woulda been invented
anyway by somebody trying to make an honest buck.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jun 30, 2015 - 10:44am PT

All that other shizz woulda been invented
anyway by somebody trying to make an honest buck.

No way freeze dried ice cream would have been invented otherwise.

The other stuff? It would have been invented, but not in time to be useful in your lifetime.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 30, 2015 - 11:33am PT
And GPS wasn't invented by or for the space business

I guess.. but it sure wouldn't exist without a space program.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jun 30, 2015 - 11:41am PT
There will be a simple engineering solution to this problem; "all it takes is time and money." Ceramic paddles to stir the LOX? Certainly NOT flammable!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 30, 2015 - 11:49am PT
For those thinking it was similar to zero g issues on Apollo 13...

Uhm this was during launch right after breaking the sound barrier.. pretty much the highest g part of the flight.. one of the most dangerous parts of any orbital flight..

Plus it was not the stratification of O2 in the tanks that caused a problem on Apollo 13.. it was a short in the wiring
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jun 30, 2015 - 11:50am PT
^^^^^^

Correct analysis.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 22, 2015 - 08:21am PT
We are going to Mars with rockets blowing up still?

looks like were going to MARS


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Dec 22, 2015 - 09:31am PT
I liked all the people cheering and high fiveing at liftoff. We launched a sattelite! How amazing!

Welcome to 1959.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Dec 22, 2015 - 09:59am PT
I liked all the people cheering and high fiveing at liftoff. We launched a sattelite! How amazing!

Welcome to 1959.

Still effing hard despite many technological advances. We have however gone from it taking a nation-state level effort to launch a basketball into orbit to having multiple private companies being able to pull it off and relatively cheaply (by comparison) and with the prospect of some re-usability we might see another halving of the launch cost.

My guess is you roll your eyes every time some one summits El Cap?

overwatch

climber
Dec 22, 2015 - 10:08am PT
Wasn't there some sketchy fire at NASA that destroyed key docs for building the Apollo rockets or is that conspiracy myth? I probably read it on here from Klimmer
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 22, 2015 - 10:10am PT
Of course the moon landing was fake.. Fortunately our friends the Soviets had no interest in embarrassing us by revealing the easily proven lie. Infact they were such amazing allies that they unnecessarily took on the embarrassment of losing the race and congratulated our fake landing publicly in their own newspapers.

How cool is that!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 22, 2015 - 10:16am PT
The Red Planet.

Does that mean it is full of Republicans?

Or commies?

And the moon landing was not fake, I watched it on TV.

And the Russians confirmed that the moon rocks were not from this world.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
Cali
Dec 22, 2015 - 10:20am PT
The point was that the rocket landed dead on the spot it was supposed to and stayed upright. Refill it with fluids and send it off again. That is why this launch was special.

And if we don't get out into space in the next 50 years we won't have enough energy left on this planet to ever get off it. Then the slow decline really sets in.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 22, 2015 - 10:26am PT
Gnome.

The Animals.

We Gotta Get Out Of This Place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJVpihgwE18


EDIT

When I was nine and an altar boy I wanted to be the first American Pope, then I woke up.

When I was ten I wanted to be an astronaut.

Now, I just want to find cures for dementia and cancer.

And the cutest kitten you could imagine (aren't they all) is climbing over my keyboard.

And the lovely puppy is barking, "Forget about space, get me to the beach."

And the love of my life is in a nursing home.

I know about the implications of space, the benefits, the downsides. Yes it was pretty good that the "Rocket" landed, and Musk is sitting in his accolades.

But how does it really help humanity? I suppose in some ways it can.
MikeMc

Social climber
Dec 22, 2015 - 10:30am PT
This is one of the big deals about last nights launch/landing;

"The Falcon 9 rocket costs about $16 million to build … but the cost of the propellant, which is mostly oxygen and a gas, is only about $200,000," Musk said. "So that means that the potential cost reduction in the long term is probably in excess of a factor of a hundred."

Good article here: http://www.space.com/31444-spacex-falcon-rocket-landing-epic-photos.html
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 22, 2015 - 10:47am PT
Pretty amazing!!! I've been trying to find a trace of the trajectory but haven't had any luck. Has anyone seen one? There is quite a horizontal component and there must have been quite a big burn to reverse course back toward Canaveral.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Dec 22, 2015 - 11:13am PT
My guess is you roll your eyes every time some one summits El Cap?

Merely another roadside crag. That stuff is just grade III from what I've been reading.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
Cali
Dec 22, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
I don't think that we will be any better as a species in space or on another planet. People are as people have always been. But unless we immediately kill off 9/10s of our population we are going to run out of stuff. There is more of everything in space so we need to get there before we have too little to boost out of our own atmosphere. Not that I personally care, at 65 I am not going to see much of it happen, but if our species hopes for long term viability then this needs to happen.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 22, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 22, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
I don't think that we will be any better as a species in space or on another planet. People are as people have always been

Well said.. this species will not move on... but another probably will.

Sagan
By the time we are ready to settle even in the nearest other planetary systems, we will have changed.
The simple passage of so many generations will have changed us, necessity would have changed us, we are an adaptable species.
It will not be we who reach Alfa Centauri and the other nearby stars. It will be a species very much like us, but with more of our strengths, and fewer of our weaknesses; more confident, far-seen, capable and prudent.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
By the time we are ready to settle even in the nearest other planetary systems, we will have changed.



clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2018 - 06:16am PT
A secret spacecraft launched by a SpaceX rocket on Sunday failed to enter a stable orbit and was lost.
The spacecraft, called Zuma, launched at 8 p.m. Sunday from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida aboard a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket.
But the spacecraft apparently did not separate as it was supposed to from the upper stage of the rocket and did not reach a stable orbit, according to a U.S. administration official and two sources who were briefed on the matter. The sources would not confirm what exactly the payload was, saying it was classified.
The mission itself was shrouded in secrecy even before it failed to enter a stable orbit. The government agency that ordered the spacecraft has not been disclosed.
Northrop Grumman (NOC), the aerospace and defense company that built the Zuma spacecraft, would only say: "This is a classified program. We cannot comment on classified programs." SpaceX has also declined to give details about the spacecraft.
In a statement, the Department of Defense said, "As a matter of policy we do not comment on classified missions."
It was not immediately clear if the failure of this mission was due to problems with the SpaceX rocket, or with the Zuma spacecraft. SpaceX issued a statement Tuesday suggesting that its rocket performed as designed.
"After review of all data to date, Falcon 9 did everything correctly on Sunday night," said the statement from Gwynne Shotwell, president and chief operating officer of SpaceX. "If we or others find otherwise based on further review, we will report it immediately. Information published that is contrary to this statement is categorically false. Due to the classified nature of the payload, no further comment is possible."

Not good.

In other news,

Your guide to commercial space travel in 2018

It's is a good time to start tuning into the business of space. The months ahead could bring some monumental developments in the booming commercial space industry.
Here's a look at what's on the calendar this year. Note that this industry is notoriously loose with deadlines, so it's possible that a few endeavors planned for 2018 will be pushed back.
SpaceX will launch astronauts with Crew Dragon
For the first time ever, SpaceX is planning to conduct a mission to space with humans on board.
Elon Musk's company has made nearly a dozen unmanned trips to the International Space Station. Those missions deliver supplies and scientific experiments to the crew on board.
Its new spacecraft, called Crew Dragon, will be able to carry astronauts as well. The company has already cinched a contract with NASA to do so.
That's a huge deal. Ever since NASA's Space Shuttle missions ended in 2011, American astronauts have had to rely on Russian spacecrafts to get to and from the space station.
NASA's keen on changing that. The agency has paid Russia about $81 million per seat for those trips. The deal with Crew Dragon would cost NASA about $58 million per seat, according to a NASA estimate.
When: A test launch is scheduled for April, and the first manned mission is slated for August.

I hope the general public flyers bought trip insurance. I personally would feel the flu coming on in August and have to cancel my trip.

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