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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2015 - 06:09am PT
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Heavy stuff, Biotch. That woman in the striped suit jumping off El Cap must have been that famous last "legal" jump in the valley. What a sad situation. Looked like the chute never opened--at all.
@ElcapPirate:
Oh, I hear you, Ammon. I've not climbed at your standard, but I've been at the game long enough to know the stakes. I'm sure all of us here are glad your own BASE accident turned out so well in the end.
Be well, jump and climb safely, one and all!
BAd
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
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Jul 13, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
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^^ Jan Davis
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 13, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
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famous last "legal" jump in the valley -- Jan Davis
It was never legal at all.
NPS allowed them to protest jump and then when they landed they were arrested.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 14, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
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The biggest (but not only) problem with base jumping is that there is no way to control the deployment bag as it pulls out of the container and extends your suspension and control lines...that is to say you have no control over which direction you will initially be heading in when, and if, your chute fully deploys. I have a skydiving license but have yet to see the base jump I would consider going off of.
Oh man....BASE pack jobs don't use a bag for one thing. The lines are stowed in a sewn in device on the tail, called a tailgate. The BASE pack job has been refined. We used to open severely off heading fairly often back in the early days, but they have now been refined to the point now that off heading openings are much less common. They do happen, but if you are quick, you can recover most of the time.
We did use bags in the olden days, when all you needed to do was pack with the slider down and put on a huge pilot chute, but your skydiving gear is quite different from BASE gear now, even I know that, and I've been out of the game since the nineties.
As for Jan Davis, I have mixed feelings. She seemed a nice person. I skydived on a few loads with her at Deland, but she was older. She had BASE experience, but not a whole lot. She wasn't super current from what I have heard.
She went in with a perfect parachute on her back. She was used to a legstrap pilot chute stow, but this rig had the stow on the base of the container, which is the way to do all rigs now. She went in searching for it.
I remember when skydiving rigs were available with either type of stow. When you jumped somebody else's rig, with a different stow, you practice it over and over until it is muscle memory. I can only assume that she didn't. If it had happened at a DZ, out of an airplane, it would have ended with a very embarrassing reserve ride at best, and a bounce at worst. She had soooo much time to find it.
Se was well liked, and her partner was Tom Sanders, a great free fall photographer. So it is hard to call her an idiot, but that's what it was, an idiotic mistake. For most jumpers, they could do El Cap every day until they die of old age and never get hurt. The only risky part of El Cap is that you must open high so that you have time to reach the meadow.
I saw a picture of Werner soloing Reed's with a boombox. He must be suicidal. Anyway, I've lost friends to climbing. None of my BASE buddies died jumping, although 2 died in car crashes. Walt died kayaking a dangerous line. His choice.
You guys need to lighten up. Wingsuiting is proving itself dangerous, for sure, but plain old BASE is now pretty safe with new gear.
Threads like this aren't very different from reading the comments section beneath the Caldwel/Jorgenson press when they were on the Dawn Wall. Don't think that you understand these things if you haven't done them.
Hell, if I were to get back into it, which I've thought about now that my son is out of college, I would have to go to the Perrine and take a first jump course or beg Ammon and Hank to help me out.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 14, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
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Look at that building strike on the previous page. She opened less than 30 degrees beyond 90 (parallel with the object) and she had 2 seconds to react.
All she had to do was pull her rear riser, and she would have been fine. Instead, she brain locked.
I've had way worse happen to me. She didn't react. She had no muscly memory. It is like watching a sack of potatoes.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 14, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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The first El Cap fatality happened in 1993. The woman was totally inexperienced. She didn't track. She kept a head high body position and managed to slide backwards into the wall. She didn't even know how to track, or brainlocked and didn't.
Even a half assed track in shorts and a t-shirt, will put you a good 250 feet away from the wall after 10 seconds. That last couple of seconds you are almost at terminal velocity and your forward movement is close to 60mph.
Even a half assed track will put you way out there.
Jan was the third El Cap fatality, in 1999. I've said enough about her.
I don't believe there has been one since, and I've read the entire list several times. It is a good way to learn from the mistakes of others.
If there was some basic ability required to do El Cap, like I said, you could do it all of the time. It is nigh impossible to hit the wall, you open so far away (I 180'd off my first time) that it is basically impossible to hit.
El Cap has been jumped thousands of times, and every incident was preventable.
The Royal Gorge Bridge is an example of a dangerous object, in a relative sense. OK for experts, but not for newbies.
These days there is enough of a BASE community that most of the stupid beginner deaths have stopped. Now and then, though.
It is just like climbing or kayaking or extreme skiing. You have people pushing the limits. People tend to do that, and you can't stop it.
Would you want to put a restraining order on Alex Honnold, preventing him from soloing? What about Bachar? He eventually did die soloing.
It is hard for you guys to weigh risk. These people know what they are getting into beforehand.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 14, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
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I have never commented negatively about base in general. The sport has matured and it does appear to be possible to do reasonably safely should one choose good exit sites, good conditions, good gear be current yadda judgement..yadda.
What I have been going on about for a while now is the low clearance (below) wingsuit proximity flying. As opposed to lots of air below and to the left or right of you.
That is simply misguided flying in any aircraft. Low altitude is not a place to hang out with aircraft. It is avoided for good reason by pilots who wish to live a while. Unavoidable for takeoffs and landings in regular aircraft..and not surprisingly the most likely times for fatal accidents.
I certainly don't advocate for outlawing these things. I would fight for folks right to do any of this. But I do advocate for voices stepping up and making clear the russian roulette nature of the game. Russian roulette is not a respectable type of risk taking. If you are the kind of person truly driven to push the limits..this is not an activity you should take up, it is not like many other things and humans are way out of their evolutionary element in it. We are severely handicapped in this arena. reliability and capability of flight equipment, Perception processing, speed, very slow reflexes relative to the speed of events and inability to sense rates of climb. Things birds take for granted and they still screw up.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jul 14, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Funny....
You never hear of jumpers sitting around bashing climbers. But for some reason climbers think that they have the rational and safe sport. Like BASE is some f*#king death wish. There is not one jumper out there that has such a wish. Quite the opposite.
I mean really if someone had a death wish why invest time, money and friendships just to go in?
Reading this form regarding BASE is highlarious. It seems to be a bunch of opinionated, ignorant and ego driven individuals.
99% of peoples comments regarding BASE and fatalities in this forum are 100% d#@&%e.
You sound as f*#king dumb as all the gumbies at El Cap Meadow...
" so you pound in all those spikey things into the rock?"
" and how you get that rope up there?"
" How you go to the bathroom?"
When Alex goes in we can all sit around and say how f*#k'n stupid climb is too and anyone who climbs is a moron :)
get outside more,
be on the internet less
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 14, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Pretty entertaining to hear climbers bagging on the risks of BASE jumping.
Huge difference in risk. The latest Rock and Ice showed the results of a survey of base jumpers. 70 something % of base jumpers have directly witnessed serious injury or death. That percentage is surely much much smaller for climbers.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jul 14, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
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^^^
you must climb in a gym?
If you think for one moment climbing is risk free you are a complete moron. Even in a gym people have been seriously hurt or killed.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 14, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
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Some of you guys will just never get it.
You can inform yourself, though. Go to basejumper.com and peruse the forum posts. Read the BASE Fatality List. A lot was learned from the mistakes of others back in the early days. Gear was evolving very quickly.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 14, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
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get outside more, be on the internet less
Do as I say, not as I do?
neener neener
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2015 - 06:19pm PT
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@Base 104:
Very informative. Thank you. I, for one, ain't bashing. It's just sad to lose our heroes, and in some cases, folks are doing some crazy stuff. But climbers do that, too.
One thought: I seems to me that one of the benefits of wingsuits is that they could make regular base a lot safer by allowing one to get well clear of the wall. But I guess that's too tame for some folks. I get it.
BAd
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
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There is not one jumper out there that has such a wish.
Wrong!!
We had a jumper who duck taped his clothing to keep his body parts together when he cratered off El Cap.
He had no canopy/parachute.
Pure suicide and death wish even left a note.
You guys don't know everything going on .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 14, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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I remember that day..sucked..I'm thinking the duct tape didn't work..amirong?
BASE104.. If you feel I am way off on my thoughts regarding proximity flight I promise to listen and not argue. I'd love to be wrong about it.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 14, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
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"Reading this forum... is highlarious. It seems to be a bunch of opinionated, ignorant and ego driven individuals. "
Welcome to Supertopo! Thanks for posting the Info on base.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 14, 2015 - 11:24pm PT
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If anyone thinks the level of risk for the average BASE jumper is comparable to the level of risk for the average rock climber you are fooling yourself.
Everyone makes their own choices about what level or risk is acceptable but you should keep things in perspective.
I believe the point of this thread was the extra risk of "stunts" or "disciplines" and how much more dangerous are they and are they worth the added risk (which is really a personal question but it's interesting to hear people's take on it).
There's roped climbing and free soloing and they have very different risks. And there's El Cap BASE jumps and wingsuit proximity flying and they have very different risks.
For me personally I'm a generalist. I do a lot of different sports so I never feel I've "gotten bored" with a sport and needed to take it to a very high level for it to still be thrilling. But if I was really focused on BASE I could see wanting to progress and try more difficult things.
The main thing that concerns me about BASE (or high altitude mountaineering for that matter) is the objective danger, the things out of my control (e.g. line overs, bad weather). If things are in my control (even in something as dangerous as free soloing, unless a hold breaks) I feel like I at least have a pretty good idea of what the actual risks will be.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 15, 2015 - 05:12am PT
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I do a lot of different sports so I never feel I've "gotten bored" with a sport and needed to take it to a very high level for it to still be thrilling. But if I was really focused on BASE I could see wanting to progress and try more difficult things.
Your comparison to the risks involved with high altitude mountaineering is interesting. Virtual proximity flying would allow wipe-outs.
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Gunkie
climber
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Jul 15, 2015 - 05:25am PT
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BASE104 has a lot of very good insight into a world I will never know. Thanks for posting your thoughts.
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