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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 10, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
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I'll be visiting the Palisades for 6-7 days in mid-August. We will be a group of four.
We don't own ice axes or crampons; I'm trying gauge the feasibility of our plans without laying out for them.
Our objectives are: Swiss Arete, Venusian Blind and/or Moon Goddess Aretes, Sun Ribbon Arete, and the Sill/Thunderbolt traverse.
Temple Crag
Firstly, I'm under the impression that both Moon Goddess Arete and Venusian Blind can be reasonably approached without crossing snow using a first pitch (chimney) variation. And I gather that Sun Ribbon Arete is feasible without crampons (ice axe "recommended" according to Supertopo) if we take care to kick some steps up on the preceding afternoon.
Also according to ST, it would appear that Sun Ribbon (at least) can probably be approached in mid-August via the moat between snow and rock.
Is this accurate?
Swiss Arete
For Swiss Arete I understand that we can avoid the L-shaped snowfield using the "sit-start" at the toe of the arete.. Is that the only viable approach without axe/crampons? It's possible we will start this climb in late-morning/early afternoon. Perhaps by that time we will be able to traverse the snowfield in approach shoes?
Am I correct that, when descending the north face of Sill to Glacier Notch ("North Couloir" per Porcella/Burns), that snow/ice can be circumvented?
Sill/Thunderbolt Traverse
This is an ambitious project for our group, so it's important to keep retreat options open.
I am under the impression that the Underhill Couloir can be approached via the snow/rock moat in late season and can thus be climbed or descended without axe/crampons.
And my understanding is that there are no east-side descent options, without ice axe or crampons, between the Underhill Couloir and the North Couloir of Sill.
On the west side, on the other hand, it seems like there are numerous options for climbing and descending without axe/crampons, all along the range: SW Chutes on Thunderbolt, NW/Starlight Chutes, SW Chute of North Palisade, SW slope of Sill.
An east-side base camp seems suitable if all goes according to plan but would necessitate a long detour (north to Agassiz Col or south to Scimitar Pass) if we were forced to retreat down the west side.
With all of that in mind, it would seem that my group must either bring axes and crampons (permitting easier retreat down the east side) or should plan on attacking this route from a west-side base camp.
Have I got that right?
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 10, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
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All of this is predicated on no major, new snow falls close to your visit dates.
Temple Crag should require no crampons. An axe maybe useful in approaching the Sun Ribbon and the Moon Goddess, but not mandatory. It can be thrown down to the snow, after crossing, for retrieval on the way back to camp as well( assuming you are coming down Contact Pass)
"the moat between snow and rock". Most likely there will be no moat and access to Sun Ribbon will be straight forward and easy via rocky ledges coming in from the climbers left.
Swiss Arete. An ax and /or micro spikes (crampons not needed) makes the approach along the glacier to Glacier Notch easier, but is not mandatory either. Walking the snow/ice is easier and generally less time consuming than boulder hoping the lateral moraine. Access to the arete is easy and by afternoon any snow in the L shaped Coulior will most likely be soft and post holing back to Glacier Notch.The slandered descent takes one around Apex Peak and into the top of the L shaped Coulior and down that to Glacier Notch. It will be the easiest and fastest way down. Scrambling rock to avoid this will be time/ energy consuming.
Sill/Thunderbolt Traverse. Pretty much nailed it. The west side climbs are snow free compared to the east(glacier approaches). I'm sure it's possible to get onto Thunderbolt from the glacier without axe or crampons,but you might find them handy. You wouldn't want to tote them across the traverse in any case: getting onto Thunderbolt is the only place they would really be useful. You could drop over to the west side and approach that way, but would be a very long day for a party of 4 and might result in a bivi, planned or otherwise.
Hope this helps. Keep an eye on conditions and call locals, like Sierra Mountaineering International in Bishop for the latest info. Several folks here on ST live on the Eastside and might be willing to give you updates as well.
Good climbing and be safe. The Palisades are serious alpine mountain and demand respect and attentiveness.
TY
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 10, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
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On the East/North side you'll be crossing some steep snow regardless of route. I strongly recommend having axes. It only takes one careless step to go for a big, fast ride down into a moat or the talus.
I've been there and done that long ago in a galaxy far away. You really don't wanna do that. It can be fatal.
Remember sections of the snow can be ice or at least nearly as slick and hard. Especially early morning or when in afternoon shade.
You shouldn't need crampons. Which is another way of saying that if you're not trained in their use they can be more dangerous than not having them.
Agassiz Col is a beeech! The East side isn't bad. Steep talus and boulders. Arduous but fairly safe. Great bivvy site at the highest tarn.
The West side is steeper with much loose sand and gravel. I consider it quite dangerous. If you take the west side of the col you might want to keep a large distance between climbers and at some points have everyone but the highest get out of the rockfall line when the leader is in the nasty places.
Due to the required caution it will likely take you longer than the Scimitar Pass route.
Be ready to get benighted unless you're very fast.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
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Thanks for the excellent feedback!
TYeary: Regarding the approach to Glacier Notch. We hope to accomplish Swiss Arete on the day we hike in via the South Fork of Big Pine Creek. From that side, I believe the approach is on talus rock, right?
On that note, day 1 we plan to hike in via South Fork, set up camp under (S/SE of) Gayley/Glacier Notch, climb the Swiss Arete, and return to camp. In the morning we will descend contact pass to spend some camping at Third Lake and climbing Temple Crag. It seems like there are plenty of flat spots and a fair bit of water up there so that we should easily be able to find a suitable spot.
Regarding the traverse, it sounds like a base on the west side is definitely the right strategy. So the plan would be to use the SW Face of Sill and the SW Chute #2 of Thunderbolt (south/right of Thunderbolt Pass), with the traverse between Thunderbolt Pass and Potluck pass rounding out the loop.
That terrain is supposed to be a major talus field, and slow-going, right? Any thoughts on how long we should anticipate for crossing it in daylight? Would it be foolish to even attempt crossing in the dark?
I know the traverse can be done in both directions (Sill-Thunderbolt or vice-versa). Are there any strategic reasons to choose one or the other? Opinions on awesome campsites to launch this traverse from?
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
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HighTraverse: Does your warning about getting benighted still apply as strongly with the west-side base, given the more numerous retreat options? Obviously anything can happen. We can get off-route on the descent too, someone can be injured, stuck ropes, etc. But if we are merely slow and take a responsible decision to retreat at the right time it seems like we should be optimistic, no? Especially with a loop via the west-side talus field, retreating on top will also shorten the hike back.
Which is not to say that we won't be prepared to spend a night out if it comes to that.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 10, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
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I've not climbed in the Palisades from the West. I'd be at least emotionally prepared for a bivvy. Assuming it's summer and not raining all you really need is an extra sweater and a fuzzy hat. Extra water and some energy food. Everyone should have a headlamp for that long trek over rough country after dark.
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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Jun 10, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
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I know the traverse can be done in both directions (Sill-Thunderbolt or vice-versa). Are there any strategic reasons to choose one or the other? Opinions on awesome campsites to launch this traverse from?
A couple of hundred feet right below the T-bolt SW chute, south of T-bolt Pass, are some small tarns with spots to camp. Not the best water in the world, but it'll do fine. People have done T-bolt in 3 hour round trips from there.
You're camping at 12,000' there, you might want to acclimate some.
T-bolt Pass itself is huge blocks of talus, as well, kind of tedious going.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 10, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
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If you aren't prepared for glacier / snow travel you might be better off going over Bishop pass and doing some of the west side routes or the traverse from that side. The campsite below T Bolt pass is one of my favorites but the hike up to the pass, and even worse back down, is torturous.
Anything on Temple should be doable in late August sans crampons and maybe even and axe, but be forewarned that Contact Pass can go from an easy snow slog to ice as soon after it goes into shade. Don't be late! Did that once in approach shoes with no axe and it wasn't fun!
When the sun goes over the hill the Palisades glacier changes from a slush slog to a tilted ice rink with big boulders for a crash pad a long way below.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 10, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
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You've got some good beta with High Traverse and Gary.
I think your plan, as far as Sill and Temple are concerned, is very doable. There should be no issues getting to Glacier Notch from Elinore Lake or the high tarn up under Glacier notch. Unless you start early, and/or are very fit, the haul up to Elinore or above with packs for 6 plus days and climbing gear, and then climb Swiss Arete, will be a very full day, especially since you will have no acclimatization. Making camp, relaxing for the afternoon and not stressing yourselves more and climbing Mt.Sill early the next day is a good plan "B".
Cheers,
TY
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 10, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
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You're planning on hiking in on the South Fork and then doing the Swiss Arete the same day? That's a big day. If you're planning on camping at Brainard or Finger Lake, it's not that close to Mt. Sill. Maybe you're really fit and this is doable, but it's more walking and alot more talus than you may realize. It seems like you're doing a hell of a lot of walking simply to avoid bringing crampons, which, considering you're coming all the way from Ottawa, should not be that great of a sacrifice to purchase.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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Excellent advice all around:
"Emotionally prepared" for a bivy - yes, this is a good way to put it.
Extra water, food, clothing, headlamps. I think it's Andy Kirkpatrick that said the best place for spare batteries is in a spare headlamp? So we'll have that covered.
Acclimation
I'm aware that altitude sickness can strike as low as 10-11k' although this is atypical. I've also seen a trip report of an attempt on this traverse almost directly from sea level (clear signs of altitude sickness through which the party, irresponsibly in my opinion, continued).
We will attempt the traverse as one of our last objectives on this visit, so we should be well acclimated by then with many nights at 10-12k' and multiple days summiting (hopefully) at 13-14k'.
On day 0 we will sleep at 7700' (Big Pine Creek Campground).
On day 1 we will sleep somewhere at or above Elinore Lake (11-12k').
It's wise to identify altitude as a risk factor - I think the above plan is responsible but acknowledge that we will definitely experience some (hopefully moderate) effects of altitude and must react accordingly.
TGT: Presumably contact pass should be mostly bare in August? In our case we will observe it on our approach from South Fork of Big Pine, so we will at least know what to expect.
Fat Dad: We're not approaching via South Fork to avoid the crampons. In fact I missed getting a permit for North Fork. On the other hand, South Fork is the recommended approach (per Porcella/Burns) for the Swiss Arete anyway.
I don't mind buying an axe and crampons, but I don't want to lay out $200+ each for (and then carry) gear we don't need. I also don't want to foolishly leave something behind that will compromise the whole trip.
We would not camp at Brainerd or Finger for Mt Sill. Most likely the tarn under Glacier or Elinore Lake.
I agree that starting early is a pre-req for even considering Mt Sill on the first day - this trip report puts the approach at 7h, which is about my own estimate, too (I have a lot of experience planning backpacking trips; I have some good metrics for distance/altitude-based trail-time estimation). It's definitely questionable whether the Swiss Arete, starting at 2PM, is a sound idea. Our party is neither the slowest nor fastest, but I would be surprised if we exceeded the ST-estimate of 2-3h for the ascent. PM thundershowers, fatigue, acclimation, or the lure of an alpine lake are all good reasons we might not choose to do it that day.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jun 11, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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Owing to your group size, and depending on your experience, or speed, you may end up having to bivy on the Sill/T-bolt traverse.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 08:39am PT
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Based on this feedback and some map reading, my current thought for the traverse would be:
Day 0 Leave one car at Bishop Pass Trail TH, drive other car to Big Pine Campground, sleep
Day 1 Hike South Fork to Elinore Lake drainage (camp at lake or high tarn)
Day 2 Descend Contact Pass to establish camp at Third Lake
Days 3-4 Temple Crag days
Day 5 cross Winchell Col and set up camp at the tarn NW of Thunderbolt Pass.
Day 6 Climb SW Chute #1 (left/west of Thunderbolt Pass), do the traverse, descend the SW Face of Sill, return to camp via Potluck Pass and Thunderbolt Pass
Day 7 Hike out via Bishop Pass Trail
We would do Sill on day 1 or 2, Venusian Blind or Moon Goddess the next day, and Sun Ribbon (probably only two of us) on day 3 or 4.
I really appreciate all of the feedback I've received so far. From what I've heard, I would consider this an ambitious but possible plan, with reasonable retreat options. And I've definitely heard the message that we need to cross our i's, dot our t's, and treat the mountains with respect.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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10b4me: Acknowledging that the unexpected might happen, yes, we could end up bivying on the ridge. But we would prefer to bail early if we are not making good time. Our plan wouldn't commit us to finishing the route.
Do you see a reason why (barring injury, stuck rope, or getting lost on the descent) a party willing to retreat due to speed would get stuck on top?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 11, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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Contact pass will be bare on the S side but may be snow filled on the N side. I was talking about the normal descent from Temple that goes down the N side of Contact pass.
Elinore lake should be renamed "the lake you cannot get to" It's a long tough slog up there with packs. From Willow lake up it's about the longest "it's only a mile or so on the topo" you'll ever do.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jun 11, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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Do you see a reason why (barring injury, stuck rope, or getting lost on the descent) a party willing to retreat due to speed would get stuck on top?
No. Just beware of your descent routes on the west side. For example, descending the west side of the U-notch is easy. The descent possibilities on the west side of North Pal are problematic. After the U-notch, the next possible descent is the southwest chute #2, on T-bolt.
Try picking up a copy of , the High Sierra, Peaks, Passes, Trails, by RJSecor.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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10b4me: Thanks. I do have Secor, in addition to Porcella/Burns (also ST High Sierra, although it's not relevant to the traverse). I'm also working off of the Tom Harrison map.
Working from north to south, I have the following escape options:
SW Chutes on Thunderbolt (we will climb #1)
NW/Starlight Chutes
SW Chute of North Palisade (aka West side of U-Notch)
SW face of Sill (our planned descent)
The NW/Starlight Chutes are not on your list; should I not consider them?
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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TGT: Thanks - those names would definitely be more descriptive!
Elinore Lake - in an ideal world we will not hit the lake itself; the route directly to the high tarn follows a creek north of the Elinore. I'm not sure if you were referring to the last bit up to the lake itself, or the general nature of travel in that area. I hear the message about very rough cross-country travel in this section, implying slower than normal travel.
Contact Pass - I was talking about the north side, too. I'm surprised that it could be snow-filled. ST seems to suggest that there might be snow but that it can be reasonably avoided. Sounds like we will be OK in the afternoon but that descending in the dark could be treacherous.
Thanks again.
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Murf
climber
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Jun 11, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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No way I'd go up there without an axe and walking crampons.
I also think the terrain there is more complicated than it might appear on the map so to speak.
In your shoes I'd hike up the NF ( "You mean this isn't the SF sir?" ), camp at 3rd lake and tick everything off Temple you want. Pick a day and do Sill, be prepared for a tougher approach after Sam Mack than you expected. Leave plenty of time for the descent and if you have time, hit Polonium on the descent.
Go back to town, drink beer.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 10:07am PT
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Murf: You would bring axe and walking crampons for Temple? Swiss Arete? The traverse?
By walking crampons, do you mean something less than full crampons (i.e. microspikes)?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 11, 2015 - 10:35am PT
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Mt. Sill is tall and a long approach. Have fun, but don't take it lightly.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jun 11, 2015 - 10:35am PT
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I really recommend an ultralight axe and some ultralight crampons if going up there. You really hate to have a few ounces ruin your objective or have you end up as one of the hundreds of "Slip and Fall on Ice: Unprepared for Conditions" accidents in ANAM. Things can go from awesome to tragic really quick out there and its nice to know you are "battle ready" when on your approach and descent.
I LOVE my tiny little Corsa Ice Ax from Camp. Its really small....too short for standard glacier use but is awesome in my right hand when on a steep snowfield like the one's yall will be on. It's maybe a foot and a half long. Worth every penny and stays in my small pack most of the time. A lifesaver though. Be an alpinist. Not a rock climber who ends up in the hospital cause he wasn't ready to be in the big mountains.
Have a blast. That's gonna be a fantastic trip.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.sagetosummit.com/camp-corsa-ice-axe.html
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 10:57am PT
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Murf: I was looking at either the Contact or the Neve (seems like an aluminum version of the Contact).
(1) For the types of things we're talking about here, I don't think the difference between SS and aluminum is likely to be a factor.
(2) 250g less
(3) If I need something more sophisticated in the future, it's likely to be more sophisticated than the contact, too.
Sound right?
Micronut: The Camp Corsa does indeed look like a great lightweight axe and would surely be useful.
Regarding the traverse being a big bite. I recognize that. Part of what I'm trying to explore is whether we can bite it off in a way where we have fun whether we succeed or fail.
If we stick to Temple and Swiss Arete, it sounds like we can probably do without them but the more cautious amongst you would still encourage us to bring them (or would advise us not to go without them).
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 11, 2015 - 10:57am PT
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Certainly the folks here who have said that you’ll be fine without an axe and light crampons are correct. That said, I can think of several times I’ve done Sierra trips with partners who insisted we go super light, and not take these basic alpine tools. No one died, but getting sketched or having to take long detours to avoid terrain which could be easily traversed with these light tools eats up a lot of time and energy. Just my .02.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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Is there somewhere between SFO and Bishop that is recommended for renting crampons/axe?
Of the four of us, two are committed to doing more alpine stuff - spending $300 on an axe and crampons is not a big deal for us (nor the carrying). For the other two, they might not use this gear again. Having something less ultralight, but not such a big investment, would probably suit them more.
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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Jun 11, 2015 - 11:04am PT
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In your shoes I'd hike up the NF ( "You mean this isn't the SF sir?" )
You could probably get a walk up permit. Lots of reservation cancellations, too, more than likely.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jun 11, 2015 - 11:17am PT
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Is there somewhere between SFO and Bishop that is recommended for renting crampons/axe?
REI used to rent crampons, and axes. Not sure if they still do.
Of the four of us, two are committed to doing more alpine stuff - spending $300 on an axe and crampons is not a big deal for us (nor the carrying). For the other two, they might not use this gear again. Having something less ultralight, but not such a big investment, would probably suit them more.
fyi, if two of you are committed to do more alpine climbing, I might go with a more durable chromoly axe, as opposed to an aluminum one. my .02, but ymmv.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 11, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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Katoola (sp?) microspike crampons and a BD pro raven axe = less than $200
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 11, 2015 - 11:28am PT
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Ditto on the delays from climbing with someone who wanted to save weight by not bringing crampons. Hiked all the way up to Matterhorn Peak with someone who thought he could do the whole thing in running shoes. Ended up bagging it because he was so slow traversing the snowfields at the base.
Also, if you're wed on doing the Swiss Arete, do the traverse south to north and start up it rather than climbing some nondescript route on Thunderbolt. I'm trying to talk a buddy into doing the traverse the same way.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2015 - 07:35am PT
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Alright, thanks for all of the excellent and insightful replies.
We might skip the traverse for this time.
In the best case, it seems like an axe and some crampons could minimize the faff, even for Temple Crag and Swiss Arete. I'll probably pick up a pair of BD Contact and a Camp Corsa Nanotech. I'll encourage my companions to consider those or the less expensive Camp Stalker crampons and Camp Neve axe.
Logic for the Contact crampons vs. the aluminum Neve is that the Neve don't seem suitable for coming down an icy contact pass (likely mixed rock & ice) or moving up a late summer glacier that could possibly be hard ice. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Logic for the Corsa Nanotech vs. the plain Corsa is mainly that the former is available in Canada.
I'll be sure to send a TR when it's all said and done. Thanks!
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 12, 2015 - 07:45am PT
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With any luck Doug Robinson will chime in.
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JerryA
Mountain climber
Sacramento,CA
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Jun 12, 2015 - 08:19am PT
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Hi Erik . Did you read Doug Robinson's Alpinist48 Palisades article ? I wonder if it will increase interest & visits . John Fischer told me that he asked Allen Steck & Steve Roper not to include any Palisades routes in their Fifty Classic Climbs of North America because he worried about the impact. On page 290, ,John is photographed climbing the Southwest Face of Clyde Minaret .When he & I climbed that route ,we bivid at the base of the route & saw a line of headlamps on the trail before sunrise heading our way . Have a great trip !
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2015 - 08:26am PT
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Guy,
You're not a downer, thanks for reading this far. That kind of feedback is definitely why I'm writing here. On the other hand, I'm an analytical person in general, so obsessing over details is something I do as a general practice.
We have a pretty objective attitude - we will be in the mountains for a few days and we're going to try some climbs. If something doesn't feel right, we're not beholden to the plans.
Upon reflection, the traverse is definitely out for us. The east-side base requires technique we don't have, and the west side requires an arduous camp move for an objective probably out of our range when lots of other more realistic things are nearby.
Swiss Arete, Venusian Blind, Moon Goddess, Sun Ribbon.
The first three seem within our reach for sure in terms of technical rock difficulty, speed, endurance. We have to work on some things (simul technique) but we have some weekends set aside to perfect those, with the goal of getting equivalent footage (involves lapping the biggest wall we have out here 2-3 times). Sun Ribbon, I'm not sure, we have to see how the others go.
You seem to be implying that appoaching/descending those routes requires honed mountaineering skills. We don't have those (although we've done some guided ice climbing). I don't get the same sense from the other commenters here, but maybe I'm only seeing what I want to see. What I read, here, in ST, and in various trip reports, is that an axe/crampons can be handy for approaching those climbs, in the limit (after dark) can be very useful for descending them, but not that there is any technical ascent on snow or ice. For the descent of Sill, we might have to posthole across a snowfield and should probably avoid doing that in the dark.
Definitely not trying to argue with good and generous advice. Only to reconcile the different expert points of view here.
Thanks,
Erik
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2015 - 08:34am PT
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JerryA: Yes we did, although the (two weeks in total) trip was already in the works before that. You are correct that the article influenced us to include Temple Crag in the objectives.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jun 12, 2015 - 09:01am PT
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I have climbed the Swiss Arête twice. The first time, finding the descent was a little tricky.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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Guy,
I think you hit the nail on the head with regards to the ice stuff. This is not meant to be an ice/snow trip, and if it is destined to be one, it's the wrong objective because we don't have those skills. That being said, I'm aware that these approaches/descents, in that season, fall in a grey area and how much of a factor that is is what I was trying to sound out here.
I think we got it in our minds that the traverse could be a stretch objective if we do exceptionally well on the others. That's a big if, and the answer is probably no. For the others, those objectives in that order seem like a good way to test ourselves without over extending.
I do hope to get out there again in the future with a lot more knowledge, experience, and confidence.
Thanks for your thoughtful response and encouragement,
Erik
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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I like the way you are approaching this trip. Good assessment of skill level, conditioning and climbing conditions in determining objectives.
If more people approached their trips this way there would be more happy outcomes.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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donini: That's a humbling compliment coming from you, and one I aspire to live up to.
Guy: TR promised.
Everyone: Thanks again. I know enough to know I've just tapped into some amazing mountain wisdom and I'm very grateful for your attention.
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CCT
Trad climber
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Jun 12, 2015 - 10:32am PT
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All those climbs are more about route-finding and risk assessment than technical ability. I'm glad that you dropped the Thunderbolt-Sill Traverse - it's not really practical with an inexperienced group of 4 (I know, I tried and failed, then came back and nailed it with a dialed partner). If part of your party is strong enough, you will know after Sill. And don't be afraid to plan to bivy on the route. There's no hurry anyway, and you can easily melt snow for water.
If there is any snow left in August, bring one ice axe for the approach to the Temple Crag routes. You can drop a rope and belay up anyone else who needs help.
Wear your helmets! Temple Crag is loose.
Plan for long days - I recommend those lightweight space blanket bivy sacks. You probably won't need them, but if you do they're well worth it.
Have fun out there!
EDIT: Escape options to East off of Thunderbolt-Sill ridge are generally not great if you aren't familiar with the terrain. In a typical retreat situation, you are tired, hungry, dehydrated, and it's getting dark. Maybe there's a storm too. If you know the way up, getting down is easy. If you don't, there may be some significant route finding challenges, including rappels with loose rock and into potentially icy gullies. In my opinion, it's best to plan not to retreat, and instead bivy in a sheltered spot on the ridge.
Ditto for Temple Crag. You can retreat into those gullies, but they are rockfall magnets. If anything other than injury is turning you back, it's safer to spend the night on the arete and finish up in the morning.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 12, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
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This has been covered, but Temple Crag is filled with loose rock. Helmets are mandatory. I know a guy who suffered a horrible head trauma when the lead line knocked off a loose block on the Sun Ribbon.
None of these routes are hard, and if you don't dick around, you can do them quickly. Personally, I wouldn't want to climb with someone above me on those aretes.
Sill is easy-peasy. If you lead 5.8 you will probably use little pro. The rock is better as well. Most of it is low fifth class IRRC. I've guided most of those routes.
Temple Crag is a beautiful mountain, but the rock is different from the surrounding peaks. It is shattered and loose. So pay attention to where the rope is running, and always try to belay in a sheltered spot from rockfall above. So be careful. It isn't the climbing that is the problem, it is the loose rock.
I never needed crampons up there in the summer, but axes are nice, especially if you need to self arrest. I remember a snow gully on the descent from Sill that we used to glicade. One of the clients hit his butt on a buried rock and broke his Coccyx, which was painful. I suspect it is full of rocks in a low snow year like this one.
Have fun, just beware of rockfall on Temple Crag. It is spectacular, but loose.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 12, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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Two points reinforced
Don't underestimate how much a climber who starts losing his nerve can slow down your team. You can go from 3d classing to occasional belays to belaying someone on even the 3d class sections very quickly. Now you're moving s.....l.....o.....w......l......y
In my opinion, it's best to plan not to retreat, and instead bivy in a sheltered spot on the ridge. This is related to my first point. Having been dragged to a belay-every-pitch-crawl by my partner we finally summited North Pal but on descent we got benighted at the top of U-Notch. In snow flurries. Last week in October. We bivvied for the night and had a no sweat descent in the morning. A little tired, a little hungry. Much safer than in the dark.
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CAC
Gym climber
Clairemont
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Jun 12, 2015 - 03:21pm PT
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I'm always surprised when people bring an axe and not crampons into the Sierra in summer. For snow collars like you are likely to find guarding some of the routes mentioned in this thread, my preferred equipment is a single set of instep crampons for the party. In fact, I haven't carried an axe in the Sierra after my first few years climbing there over 20 years ago.
The way we handle summer snow: the team climbs to the base of the snow collar, one member of the team climbs the collar with instep crampons to the base of the route and fixes the rope, then the rest of the party uses the rope as a hand line up to the base of the route. Super quick and way safer than having the entire party try to make their way up a bullet-hard snow field with an ice axe, which in case of a slip they are unlikely to be able to use to arrest anyway.
The aluminum instep crampons are easily stowed away in a small pack or even in a pocket. Rock climbing with an axe strapped to your pack can be a constant hassle - most of the routes on Temple have some chimneys in which the axe will hang up.
The Sierra snow collars are usually not steep and are often sun cupped so all you really need is a way to keep your feet under you while you walk upwards. Instep crampons are good for that and can be securely attached to approach shoes so you don't even have to bring heavy boots. I bring them along on many of my Sierra trips and will often not use them but they are light insurance - I would hate to get turned back from a route just because I can't get across a 20-foot section of hard snow.
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CCT
Trad climber
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Jun 12, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
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Good point, CAC.
Maybe I should rethink the ice axe strategy and carry a pair of lightweight, fits-all crampons instead.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Jun 12, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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You can chop steps with this
Oversized tool
Good luck self arresting with
Instep crampons
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CAC
Gym climber
Clairemont
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Jun 12, 2015 - 05:06pm PT
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Luckily, chopping steps went out with woolen climbing breeches ;) I shudder to think about rock climbing with that long stick attached to my back.
Have you tried to self-arrest on hard early-morning Sierra snow, even at a moderate angle? I haven't but I'm guessing my chances of stopping myself would be 50/50 at best. Always better to not slip in the first place, which of course is what the crampons are for.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 12, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
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I've never regretted leaving the pons behind, but there have been a few times I really didn't like not having the axe.
Knowing how to efficiently whack a few steps or holds can save a lot of time and minimize the excitement.
Self arresting can be effective on surprisingly steep and hard surfaces IF! you've practiced it under the right conditions.
Both skills are about now completely lost arts, and most axes made now don't do either very well.
If I was just going to Temple I probably wouldn't bring either. (but I'd bring two nut tools this time)
For Sill in August I'd want the axe.
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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Jun 12, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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Knowing how to efficiently whack a few steps or holds can save a lot of time and minimize the excitement.
True.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2015 - 09:40pm PT
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That's Jay Smith in the photo.
He probably knows what to do with the tool....one of a select group to summit all three of the Torre Group in Patagonia.
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JedHiker
Social climber
Long Beach, CA & Bishop area
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Happy to say that I climbed the lower portion of Moon Goddess Arete in 1969 or 1970 with the PSM. And a few days later, Swiss Arete. Doug Robinson was the training guide and John Fischer ran the clinic. Then, Swiss Arete again in 1992 with my son Mike and the late Alan Bard. And much later, numerous trips up the 4th class crack at Contact Pass. ( swing up left at the chicken head, for those who know)
As I walk the N. fork trails now, you might find me day hiking to the lakes or Sam Mack if I feel adventurous. Talking with the young climbers on their way up brings back memories seemingly days or weeks old rather than the 46 years.
I wish all of you the same memories. It never, ever leaves you.
Anyone out there sleep in the stone hut at the top of the Third Lake couloir?
Jed Bishop
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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I would like to know what this 'snow' thing is. I havent heard of this thing before.
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JerryA
Mountain climber
Sacramento,CA
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What stone hut above Third Lake ?
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2015 - 10:04am PT
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By the way, we did make the trip out west, though we scaled back our ambitions and spent two weeks in Tuolomne. Fairview, Dozier, Tenaya, Matthes, Stately, Pywiack, Medlicott, Cathedral. An awesome trip! I'm still catching up with stuff at home but I'll get a TR up soon.
Palisades remain high on my list for another year. Thanks again for all the feedback here.
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| Messages 1 - 54 of total 54 in this topic |
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