Theodore Roosevelt and proto-US imperialism

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rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Topic Author's Original Post - May 4, 2015 - 03:38am PT
Just listened to a Hardcore History pod-cast; #49 The American Peril, about the late 19th century, Roosevelt and other Jingoists pushing for an American empire.... If you haven't listened to Dan Carlin's (Hardcore History) pod-casts they are all really quite entertaining. This one happens to be free to download from ITunes. This era is not my field of study so I have no opinion on accuracy of his presentation... but a good listen all the same. Got a spare 4 hours? Or have a long drive ahead of you. You'll like it..

By the way, his (also free) series on Genghis Khan is even better.


number 6 on the I-tunes list here
http://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/dan-carlins-hardcore-history/id173001861?mt=2
ECF

Big Wall climber
May 4, 2015 - 05:08am PT
I wish more people cared about history.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 4, 2015 - 07:38am PT
I care enough that I might stoop to using Itunes for the first time ever.

shudder

Teddy Roosevelt was a very interesting person.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 08:24am PT
I think you can download directly from DanCarlin.com if you prefer.

Teddy was a egoistic murderous jerk. Just my opinion. ha
But his machismo must ring familiar to climbers. Danger and discomfort give life its meaning. I do find some truth in that. Hitler loved his WWI war years too. Man is a strange creature.
gumbyclimber

climber
May 4, 2015 - 09:19am PT
America's craziest president. A man who reinvigorated imperialism and warned against "the menace of peace".

Tom Woods writes: "Presidential scholar Edward Corwin has spoken of the "personalization of the presidency," by which he means that the accident of personality has played a considerable role in shaping the office. And indeed it is hard to think of a stronger personality than that of Theodore Roosevelt who ever served as president. One presidential scholar observed that Roosevelt gave the office "the absorbing drama of a Western movie." And no wonder. Mark Twain, who met with the president twice, declared him "clearly insane." In a way, Roosevelt set the tone for his public life to come at age 20, when, after an argument with his girlfriend, he went home and shot and killed his neighbor's dog. He told a friend in 1884 that when he donned his special cowboy suit, which featured revolver and rifle, "I feel able to face anything." When he killed his first buffalo, he "abandoned himself to complete hysteria," as historian Edmund Morris put it, "whooping and shrieking while his guide watched in stolid amazement." His reaction was similar in 1898 when he killed his first Spaniard."

"This is a pistol with history," he said, fondling his revolver affectionately. "It was taken from the wreck of the Maine. When I took it to Cuba I made a vow to kill at least one Spaniard with it and I did..."

His eldest daughter once remarked, "He wants to be the bride at every wedding, the corpse at every funeral, and the baby at every christening."
Flip Flop

climber
salad bowl, california
May 4, 2015 - 09:37am PT
Fvckin Teddy Nutjob. It's important to remember that in politics, like climbing, crazy is a winning tactic.

My grandfather, born Theodore Roosevelt Scheile, changed his name to Theodore Raymond Scheile. He hated Teddy. I'm not sure his reasons.

My complaints about Teddy are the imperialistic thrutchings that left such a mess. Competitive little east coast guy with too much blood lust, in my opinion.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 4, 2015 - 10:22am PT
Like I said.. very interesting guy.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
May 4, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
If it wasn't for Teddy Roosevelt, I suppose you'd all be begging wealthy landowners for the possibility to enjoy a little bit of access to the vast resource that is now the public lands (isn't hypothetical history fun!).

Which reminds me of the Province of Buenos Aires, where less than one-tenth-of-one-percent of the surface area is public lands and the deer population was hunted to virtual extinction decades ago. Teddy Roosevelt didn't have much influence here.
Flip Flop

climber
salad bowl, california
May 4, 2015 - 01:28pm PT
Yanqui,
Can we talk? Would you mind reading a bit about US imperialism and Corporate Colonialism in Argentina and then tell me if you think that US policy hasn't affected Argentina.

In a modification of the phrase "Lo que no tienen ustedes, tenemos nosotros."
gumbyclimber

climber
May 4, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
If it wasn't for Teddy Roosevelt, I suppose you'd all be begging wealthy landowners for the possibility to enjoy a little bit of access to the vast resource that is now the public lands (isn't hypothetical history fun!).

Maybe. On the other hand, "Germany ranks among the densely wooded countries in Europe. Around 11,4 million hectares corresponding to one third of the national territory are covered with forests...Forests increased by more than 1 million hectares in Germany over the past five decades...Hence, Germany occupies a leading place compared with other European countries....48% of the 11.4 million hectares of forest in Germany are private forests. 29% of forests are owned by Countries, 19% owned by corporations and 4% owned by the state."

Japan is both the most densely populated (90% live on 10% of the land) and most forested (67%) first-world nation with 60% private forest.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 4, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
Wasn't Thomas Jefferson the first hegemonist imperialist president with his
Barbary Pirates War?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 4, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
What did he do that was so bad? I've always thought of him as a good president. I've read some books and am not completely ignorant but maybe I am missing something???
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
May 4, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
I read an excellent book about that period and what TR set up... He was why the Japanese invaded Korea and tormented those people for many years. He actually put the circumstances in place that eventually led to WWII.
The book is "The Imperial Cruise". Opened my eyes to another side of TR besides the one we like to remember him for.... a not so good side... he was a rabid racist too.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
May 4, 2015 - 04:14pm PT
gumbyclimber: The Provincia of Buenos Aires is double the size of Washington State but you can't climb ANYWHERE in the province (legally) unless you can convince a landowner to permit you. The land was first largely divided up among the wealthy and powerful and then handed down and/or bought and sold over time. The part left over that was public was mostly given away or sold off at bargain basement prices to wealthy or powerful friends and associates of the politicians in power.

That sort of thing was going on in the US before Roosevelt stepped in. The definitive book on Roosevelt's contribution is Douglas Brinkley's "The Wilderness Warrior" :

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/23/books/23maslin.html?_r=0

it's heavy going, but worth it if you want to evaluate Roosevelt's contribution to the public lands in the US.

I like public lands, and the access and conservation that comes with that. Maybe Japan and Germany does OK without, but the Provincia of Buenos Aires has largely converted into a giant soy field, with a few tiny islands outside, because they are too wet or too rocky to make money off of right now. However, the limited access to these islands will readily disappear, if access conflicts with the owner's interest.

Filp Flop: sure we can talk. What do you have to say?

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
Yea I kind of forgot about Teddy's national park deal. Of course public lands are being sold off by the neocons now. Ha
And I hear Hitler really liked dogs and (arian) children. Even nuts have a good side. :)

Sounds like Argentina needs to import the Shinning Path to set things straight.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
May 4, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
rockermike: I (almost) hate to say it but you are a slave to Goodwin's Law. Seek enlightenment!
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
lol... Goodwin's law doesn't apply becuase this isn't a long thread yet. Secondly Goodwins 'law' is a piece of sh#t. Who the hell is Goodwin and why is his half baked opinion supposed to carry the day? What it implies is that hereafter no one can refer back the the most important event and personality of the twentieth century.. for the sake of highlighting certain traits or trends. No I didn't say Teddy was a mass murderer... but my point stands. Teddy's good doesn't make up for his racist egoistic war mongering. One man's opinion. Carry on :)
gumbyclimber

climber
May 4, 2015 - 09:39pm PT
I don't mean to simplify a complicated issue but who built Hoover Dam, Hetch Hetchy, and the TVA? Who has been better to climbers: the Yosemite Park Service or the Indian Creek Cattle Company? I know I'd rather deal with Heidi and her sons than the Yosemite rangers. The ICCC has certainly been better on the conservation front than the NPS.
Rick A

climber
Boulder, Colorado
May 6, 2015 - 08:58am PT
Theodore Roosevelt was not the first president to engage in empire building, far from it.

I have been reading about early US history recently and from Washington on, the early leaders and their patrons engaged in speculating in land. This required an ever-increasing inventory of raw land, and it was available to the west, north and south of the thirteen colonies, provided one could dispossess the inhabitants, primarily native Americans, but also European settlers under the flags of Britain, France and Spain.

Examples:

In the revolutionary war, one of our first military offensives was the invasion of Canada in an attempt to acquire the lands to the north.

Thomas Jefferson, the great proponent of small government, presided over the Louisiana Purchase, adding to what he called an “Empire of Liberty”.

Aaron Burr, after his term as vice president and his duel with Alexander Hamilton, raised a private army in an attempt to seize Mexico from Spain in what was known then as a “filibuster”. This meant a private effort to take and settle land held by foreign powers, with the goal of eventual annexation of those lands by the US government.

Andrew Jackson presided over the cruel and infamous “Trail of Tears,” the forcible removal of native Americans from the southeastern US in order to clear the way for the use and sale of that land.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 6, 2015 - 09:09am PT
I already said Thomas Jefferson. But I didn't include his big
housing development. ;-)
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 6, 2015 - 09:22am PT
He is still popular
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
May 10, 2015 - 10:32am PT
The hardcore history podcasts are pretty cool.

When it comes to TR, yep he was an imperialist. Many world leaders were back then, and it did lead to conflict around the world. He wasn't the first, nor was it unique to the United States. Our main empire was internal- coast to coast. Hawaii, Guam, and the Philippines were late in the game.

I find the attempts to expand the slave empire pre-civil war to really interesting. Many American slave power politicians wanted Cuba.

The filibusterer William Walker is worth a bit of research if you have time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_%28filibuster%29

Trying to start a revolution with the purpose of annexation by the United States seems crazy, except that it worked in Texas and sort of in California.

Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
May 10, 2015 - 02:32pm PT
And then there's the Phillipines. And Cuba.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 10, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
Seems like a lot of Theodore Roosevelt hate on this thread.

I worked through a very interesting 524 page biography of Roosevelt a couple years back, and by the standards of the early 1900's, he appeared to be one of the most progressive presidents we've ever enjoyed.
Theodore Roosevelt by Kathleen Dalton.


By our current standards, he may deserve all the dirt thrown out thus far, but it was a far different time in America and of course the Democrats were the most racist, ignorant, & conservative party & the Republicans were the more educated &--------slightly more liberal party, that completely supported Corporate America.

At the time, Roosevelt was an rich, intellectual liberal, that favored American expansion.

So----by current standards Theodore was a racist, but he was hated by the conservatives for his then, liberal attitudes towards blacks.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Theodore_Roosevelt

On the other hand, Roosevelt felt that the equality for the black race would come through progress from one generation to the next.[6] For this, he was lauded by liberal whites, and was received as the usher of a new era in the black community.[7] William McGill, a black preacher in Tennessee, wrote: "The administration of President Roosevelt is to the Negro what the heart is to the body. It has pumped life blood into every artery of the Negro in this country."[8] Pope Leo XIII remarked approvingly of TR’s determination “to seek equality of treatment of all the races.”[9]

Roosevelt wrote to a friend that, regarding the difficult issue of race relations, “I have not been able to think out any solution of the terrible problem offered by the presence of the Negro on this continent, but of one thing I am sure, and that is that inasmuch as he is here and can neither be killed nor driven away, the only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less than he shows himself worthy to have.”[10] Additionally, Roosevelt risked outrage (and perhaps physical harm) while speaking to a heavily armed crowd in Butte, Montana during his 1903 Western tour: “I fought beside colored troops at Santiago [Cuba], and I hold that if a man is good enough to be put up and shot at then he is good enough for me to do what I can to get him a square deal.”[11]

Perhaps his attitude is best understood in comparison to those of others in his time, who accused him of “mingling and mongrelization” of the white race; notably Democratic Sen. Benjamin Tillman of South Carolina, who commented on Roosevelt's dining with Booker T. Washington: “The action of President Roosevelt in entertaining that nigger will necessitate our killing a thousand niggers in the South before they learn their place again.”[12]

As regards his politics, his huge visions for saving our National Parks & National Forests has been mentioned.

He did much more for America.


After President McKinley’s assassination in 1901, which elevated Vice-president Roosevelt to President:

from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt


One of Roosevelt's first notable acts as president was to deliver a 20,000-word address to Congress[91] asking it to curb the power of large corporations (called "trusts"). He also spoke in support of organized labor to further chagrin big business, but to their delight, he endorsed the gold standard, protective tariffs and lower taxes.[92] For his aggressive use of United States antitrust law, he became known as the "trust-buster." He brought 40 antitrust suits, and broke up major companies, such as the largest railroad and Standard Oil, the largest oil company.[93]

In May 1902, anthracite coal miners went on strike, threatening a national energy shortage. After threatening the coal operators with intervention by federal troops, Roosevelt won their agreement to an arbitration of the dispute by a commission, which succeeded in stopping the strike, dropping coal prices and retiring furnaces; the accord with J.P. Morgan resulted in the workers getting more pay for fewer hours, but with no union recognition.[94][95]

Journalist Ray Baker quoted Roosevelt concerning his policy towards capitalists and laborers: "My action on labor should always be considered in connection with my action as regards capital, and both are reducible to my favorite formula – a square deal for every man."[96] Roosevelt thought it was particularly important for the government to supervise the workings of the railway to avoid corruption in interstate commerce; the result was the Hepburn bill, which established control over railroad rates.[97]

Roosevelt responded to public anger over the abuses in the food packing industry by pushing Congress to pass the Meat Inspection Act of 1906 and the Pure Food and Drug Act. The Meat Inspection Act of 1906 banned misleading labels and preservatives that contained harmful chemicals. The Pure Food and Drug Act banned food and drugs that were impure or falsely labeled from being made, sold, and shipped

1912 Presidential election, which he lost as candidate of the new Progressive Party aka Bull Moose Party.

Roosevelt's platform echoed his 1907–8 proposals, calling for vigorous government intervention to protect the people from the selfish interests;
"To destroy this invisible Government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.[143][144] This country belongs to the people. Its resources, its business, its laws, its institutions, should be utilized, maintained, or altered in whatever manner will best promote the general interest. This assertion is explicit... Mr. Wilson must know that every monopoly in the United States opposes the Progressive party... I challenge him... to name the monopoly that did support the Progressive party, whether... the Sugar Trust, the US Steel Trust, the Harvester Trust, the Standard Oil Trust, the Tobacco Trust, or any other... Ours was the only program to which they objected, and they supported either Mr. Wilson or Mr. Taft"[145]

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