Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 159 of total 159 in this topic |
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 27, 2015 - 08:18am PT
|
I was reading this excellent (albeit needs more pics) thead
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2609632&tn=40
Near the beginning is a brief exchange between SweetWilliam and Fat Dad that made me cringe. (Not simply because of the horrific grammar and spelling issues.)
Sweet william posted this pic from Yosemite Climber and wrote, "That chick in the picther should have worn more than a sports bra like a long sleeve you get all scarped up in there"
Fat Dad quickly corrected him to say it was NOT a "chick" but instead was Valley Hardman Nic Taylor from Australia.
The response... classic! (Complete with even more grammar issues) "whateverr fatman did you climb it smarty? who is nick taylor i thought that was the guy in the rolling stones who died?"
This made me wonder... How long until the men who set the stage for the next generation of climbers are completely forgotten by the gym rats of today? In ten years will people know (this is a VERY brief list in no particular order):
Royal Robbins
Allen Steck
Warren Harding
Glen Denny
Jim Bridwell
Frank Sacherer
Mark Klemens
Barry Bates
Steve Roper
Yvon Chouinard
Tom Frost
Chuck Pratt
Bev Johnson
Werner Braun
Ron Kauk
Kevin Worrall
Lynn Hill
Hans Florine
John Long
John Bachar
Dale Bard
Augie Klein
Dave Diegelman
Bill Price
Charlie Porter
Sibylle Hechtel
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:23am PT
|
Yosemite climbing is hands-down the most well-documented in our country, if not the world. I'm not too concerned.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:28am PT
|
It is not concerning either that some people are ignorant of Yosemite or climbing history. Usually education starts with grammar before progressing to things they don't teach in school. More than just climbing pioneer history is lost to that poor soul.
|
|
Psilocyborg
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:29am PT
|
Actually seems like the dude is just being silly?
Either way I don't think coments from random internet users suggest a trend
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:30am PT
|
don't forget about Ken boodawg!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:42am PT
|
Remember?
Hell, they don't know sh!t about the history of climbing.
|
|
Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:45am PT
|
Warren Harding
What!?! that ol' president climbed?
that's cool ;)
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2015 - 08:58am PT
|
At least Roxy knows the presidents!
One of these men had balls... the other just threw a ball.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:03am PT
|
Hell, they don't know sh!t about the history of climbing.
Sure they do.
Everyone wakes up in the morning and remembers what they did the day before.
And why am I on this list? I don't belong there.
I'm no pioneer, I just ate some bananas and jumped up and down like a monkey on some rocks and didn't do sh!t.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:08am PT
|
and didn't do sh!t.
Not buying that line.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:13am PT
|
Remember?
Hell, they don't know sh!t about the history of climbing.
Prolly has someth'in to do with the higher thc levels in the gonja these days compared to the weed you smoked
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:15am PT
|
Remember?
Hell, they don't know sh!t about the history of climbing.
Bullsh#t.
Don't paint us all with the same brush Ron.
I appreciate history and pass it on to the next generation we are now mentoring every chance I get.
If you are actually concerned about climbing, take some of these new kids out and show them how you roll. Action speaks much louder than words.
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:15am PT
|
Interesting question. Coincidentally I was thinking about this subject on my drive to work this morning. I'd say in about 100 or more years, and no one will care about early climbing history.
In the mean time, a lot of people on this site are doing their part to make sure it doesn't get "lost" for the time being.
On a related note:
Last week I noticed that Ken Boche was a member of a FA party out in the Palisades. Not a 5.3 jug haul or whatever the F! was stated above.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:22am PT
|
Adam
Mohammed
Socrates
Cleopatra
Alexander
Cook
Hartouni
Hillary
Mandela
Jack
Yes, I believe they will.
|
|
ryankelly
Trad climber
Bhumi
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:26am PT
|
Don't forget my buddy Rick Cashner on your list.
Werner, you got any good Rick stories for the internet?
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:40am PT
|
I'd say in about 100 or more years, and no one will care about early climbing history.
You really think that people who love climbing won't care about it's roots? I don't believe it for a second. There are lots of people who don't care about human history either, but that doesn't mean it's been entirely forgotten.
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:47am PT
|
Funny.....but not funny story.
So a few years back, Bridwell and I are in Yosemite Valley visiting. Went by to see Werner, Merry and John Dill, was a good visit, fun listening to the BS flying. So we leave good company and decide to go by C-4 rescue site, Jim wanted to see it since it had been such a long span between visits. On the drive over from the Village he talks about Lucy and Virginia Parker and how Julia and Ralph's old house use to be amongst the pines right outside of C-4, he talks about how they use to go over and visit with Lucy and Virginia when Julia and Ralph were out of town....the parties at the house. We park the truck in the Lodge parking lot and walk across to C-4, walking through Camp 4 with Jim is a story in itself listening to all the stories he has from his stay there.
We go beyond the camp and he shows me the old house site, what's left of it. He seems saddened by the fact it's not there and all the memories he had there with the Parker's. On the walk back into camp we stop by the tent cabins of the rescue crew. There is yellow tape marking the boundaries and Jim talks of how far this crew has come to now have their own spot in camp and have the comfort of tent cabins, instead of tents and sleeping bags back in his day. He wants to go talk with some of the SAR members, so he steps over the yellow tape and before he could get his other foot in bounds a member steps out of one of the cabins and informs Jim, he is in unauthorized territory and he must step back over the tape! He laughs and steps back and I try to explain the situation and who Jim is. She hears nothing of it and says she does not know of Bridwell and we need to be escorted into the SAR site by a SAR member!! Jim and I are floored...and as we walk back to the truck, he is laughing that the site he started, he is no longer known or welcome.
So yeah.....our "pioneers" will be forgotten. Sad as it may be.
Peace
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:52am PT
|
This is really funny. AntiPlasticMan (eKat calls him that) worries that Yosemite pioneers will be forgotten, and provides a list to remind us just who those pioneers were...
...conveniently forgetting that those weren't the pioneers at all. That the real pioneers were the ones who came before most of the guys on the list. Maybe Al Steck qualifies as straddling generations, but most of the others were second- and third-wave. They pushed the envelope of the possible, but definitely followed the path pioneered by those who came before.
I'm guilty, too, as I couldn't name them all, nor tell you the stories of their climbs, so help me out. I remember the name Bestor Robinson, but there were a bunch of others...
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:54am PT
|
Kevin, you should give the movie a look, you are oh SO YOUNG in it!
Peace
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2015 - 10:14am PT
|
On a similar note... I try to tell students that performers like Kanye West, Iggo Azalea, and Justin Bieber will be long forgotten in 15 years because much of their music is derivative but the real pioneers, Beethoven, Mozart, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, and even Taylor Swift will still be played 50 years from now.
A...N...D...
Disagree.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2015 - 10:24am PT
|
Ghost is correct that I leaned heavily on my time period and left off many a pioneer (I was working on three hours sleep and a sudden urge).
A few more:
Ray Jardine
John Middendorf
Yabo
John Salathé
William Kat
David Brower
Anton Nelson
Mark Powell
Of course there are hundreds but there are certain names that should be drilled into new climbers much the same that MLK, George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln are embedded into youths at school. Where would Yosemite climbing be without Robbins, Bridwell, Bachar, Kauk, Hill?
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 10:42am PT
|
Here's a couple you forgot hater,
Jules Eichorn
Bestor Robinson
Maybe the first of the piton pounders?
|
|
elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 10:55am PT
|
Back in 1988 I had a similar experience with Bridwell. I was trying to sleep, the night before starting on the Muir, but heard a rucas outside and got out of my tent to see what was up. Bridwell was a little loaded and was saying that he went by another site and saw some climbers who he engaged in conversation... it went something like this "hello guys. I am Jim Bridwell and have done some things here... I was wondering what you guys are working on?" The reply was short and powerful...... "Jim who?" Bridwell was furious that they had never heard of him and said.. "Fcuking Americans know nothing about the history of climbing in their own country!"
People who are interested in the history of climbing will learn all about it, and can, as we now have an extensive record of its development. Those with no interest, will not. It is that way with just about everything. In the end... the real end... all that mankind has ever done will some day be lost when the earth is eaten by the sun. Nothing lasts forever.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 10:57am PT
|
Two events of the past few days reminded me of a basic truth about history: It's not those who were there, but those who come after that decide what is historically signficant.
On Friday, I had to deal with all the noisy remembrance of the Armenian genocide started by the Young Turk government on April 24, 1915. My mother, still alive and lucid at 103, was thrown into prison and her father, a professor at Euphrates College, was killed, facts she vividly remembers. Nonetheless, the enormous scale of the killings perpetrated by Hitler, Stalin and Mao make many argue that the horror my forebears faced doesn't "qualify" as genocide.
The next day, I watched "Valley Uprising" again when Discovery aired it, to see if my impression from the first time I watched it changed. It did not. How could anyone argue that the NW Face of Half Dome was "the world's first 'big wall' route," given the routes that had been done in Europe in the 1920's and 30's, or, for that matter, the Lost Arrow Chimney and the Steck-Salathe? Nonetheless, that's what the film said.
I'm sure if Pratt were alive, he'd be surprised to find that he was a mere "acolyte" of Robbins. Sacherer would doubtless be surprised to learn that that my generation was the first to consider free climbing big walls. I gusee the DNB, Lost Arrow Chimney, and North Buttress of Middle Cathedral don't count.
When I thought about it some more, however, I realized that people and climbs I considered important decades earlier are not necessarily important today. Each innovation in the steam locomotive was a big technological breakthrough in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, but doesn't matter much in the 21st.
Whether we like it or not, there's no guaranty that climbers and history we think important now will seem so important 50 years from now. Humanity's curse, but also its blessing, is that we change how we do things. Those changes necessarily cause us to view past events differently over time.
John
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:06am PT
|
love this guy named Bob kamps!
At least Roxy knows the presidents!
One of these men had balls... the other just threw a ball.
sounds like a baby boomer kinda comment!
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:07am PT
|
I gotta say that Jim was very well mannered and took it all in stride. He is "different" now than he was in the 60's-80's and speaks his mind. Jim is an incredibly giving person in the same way. Same trip to the Valley as above, we were in the cafeteria eating breakfast with a close group of friends. Word gets around that Bridwell is "over there". People start to gather, a camera man sets up a camera on a tripod and starts to film us eating breakfast and starts an interview with Jim. I ask Jim if he's cool with everything...he responds, good to go....if I can sit here and make these guys day, then that's what I'll do.
He also hands out food to the needy at his local church, never seen him turn away someone who wants to talk or get an autograph. He has done work for magazines and films, never gotten paid, but doesn't ask either. He is a one of a kind, true gentleman.
Just be ready to discuss if you ask a question he is ready to discuss!
Peace
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:11am PT
|
Seems many (most?) climbers know little climbing history. More worrisome is that few people know history, science, math, or writing. It seems that it would behoove the species to let natural selection run unimpaired by society's interventions....
PS That pic of Nic Taylor represents some serious badassery!
PPS For Jim Bridwell to not get every due respect from YOSAR just ain't right!! Thanks, Ron, for posting about The Bird. For those who enjoyed the unique atmosphere of The Valley during the 70s, The Mayor of Camp 4 orchestrated the magic and we have him to thank.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2015 - 11:17am PT
|
Ron... I remember always being intimidated by Jim... my God! He was larger than life for this pubescent teen wannabe. One day my cruiser bike disappeared from C4. I wandered around looking for it and caught wind a gang of long hairs had it over by the pool. I strutted over there ready to set things straight only to see Jim astride the vehicle and surrounded by the "names": Werner, Kauk, Bard, Worrall, Long... I knew Ron well so I mustered my courage and approached.
"Hi. Uhmm... that's my bike. Can I have it?"
Jim: "Yours? Really? I thought it was a community cruiser."
"I need it to get down to el Cap"
Jim: "El Cap, huh? That's quite an objective this late in the day."
"No, we're not gonna climb it today. Just Moby Dick."
Jim: "Well then, I better get you on your way."
He hoped off and gently passed the bike over. The crew all got a good laugh out of it and I felt I had conquered a huge fear. I peddled back to C4 to tell my young crew about the dignitaries I had met.
Good times...
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:34am PT
|
It's sad if we're sad about it. Me, not so much. My kids don't really care who I used to be or who my heroes were or who the real pioneers were. They're the pioneers now.
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:39am PT
|
I started climbing in 1977 and wanted to know everything about the history. Now a lot of youngsters don't care much about it.
What is wrong?
Why don't they care?
The ones who came before set the stage so we could have our fun.
How can someone not know about Bridwell?
|
|
selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:44am PT
|
people start caring about history when they get older. Give it another 20 years and those plastic climbers will be complaining no one has ever heard of Sharma
|
|
ECF
Big Wall climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:58am PT
|
Pioneers forgotten?
Yeah, even by you history buffs.
George Anderson
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
|
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2534096&msg=2534096#msg2534096
Ghost doesn't keep up with much, Apogee, in terms of music.
I'm so glad I got a chance to speak with Raffi Bedayn and sit on his granite bench in the lee of Columbia boulder
with a sense of pleasant ease,
watching the new stars climb with ease.
And waiting for their children to follow.
It's funny, too, because this youngster was there that afternoon, too!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
|
Yeah Mike, a sweeping generalization, but all too often true.
I just can't understand how young (literate) climbers are just not curious as to how our activity evolved.
Before I ever put up a route I knew One Man's Mountains by Patey as well as Doug Scott's book by heart, and had read many dozens of other climbing books.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 12:27pm PT
|
Doug who?
edit: oh, wait. was that the guy that broke his legs in the himalaya and crawled down on his knees?
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
|
Everyone is eventually forgotten . . . except for a few names in history books that most people don't read anyway.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
|
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
|
Yes Big M....I think that most of what we care about today will be irrelevant 100 years from now. What might be of interests is Hannold, Caldwell etc. Because those guys are changing climbing..radically changing climbing.
The new generation may want to know where their strategies, techniques, and gear came from. Soloing and Free Base is the future, and will open up new ideas like your own personal safety drone that catches you before a grounder. Climbing around with ropes, etc. will be too cumbersome (for the future IMO).
No one will give a crap about leading a 5.9. Well some will...think about the true pioneers and what occurred in the 20th century. Museums will have some of it is my guess, but they will have had made room for the 21st century pioneers too which will be more interesting to visitors as it is more relevant.
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 02:30pm PT
|
They're gonna forget about Medusa!!!
(Happy birthday!!)
happy bday medusa!!!
|
|
ECF
Big Wall climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
|
Johntp
You are thinking of Joe Simpson, I'd guess.
I read everything from Whymper to Rowell. There is so much to be learned in those stories. So much wisdom earned the hard way.
Seemed smarter to try and learn from other peoples errors as much as possible when lives are on the line.
Knowing what others had done and made it through, has helped me many times in keeping it together when it starts getting seriously grim.
But when you can look up anything you want at a moment's notice, why learn anything?
Right?
IMO, in a hundred years all that will still be told of Yostory is
George Anderson
Robbins vs Harding
Bridwell
Free Nose, Free Dawn
Honnold making everyone else look like pussies by soloing absolutely everything
Really, where do you go after that?
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 03:02pm PT
|
Reading a quote from Ashley Montague in Neurodiversity about the glories of my daughter's adhd.
From their "mature adult" heights adults only too frequently look down patronizingly upon the "childish" qualities of the child, without any understanding of their real meaning. Such adults fail to understand that those "childish" qualities constitute the most valuable possessions of our species, to be cherished, nurtured, and cultivated.
Love that girl of mine and her irrepressible childish energy! Or build a shrine to RR, if we prefer.
|
|
Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
|
I'm with Rhodo-Router. The history of the crag where I learned to climb (Vedauwoo) is mostly forgotten. The few of us who remember such things have moved away, passed away, or simply lost interest. I suspect there are many such areas that have lost or are in danger of losing their history.
Yosemite may be one of the only areas where that history has been preserved.
|
|
Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 03:53pm PT
|
I think as long as guidebooks and such continue to have FA indexes, then the pioneers who put up a bunch of routes will continue to be well-recognized, or at least their names will. Plus a bunch of climbs and formations are named after the FA party: Dolt Tower, the Huber Variation, Harding Slot, Kor Roof, Schultz's Ridge, Sacherer Cracker, Kaukulator, Klemens' Escape, Werner's Ant Trees, the Chouinard-Herbert, Bachar-Yerian, Ament Arete, Bates Problem, and a million other examples.
Edit: On a related note, anybody know who/what Rixon's Pinnacle is named after? It popped into my head when I was coming up with routes named after people, and I realized I don't know how it got the name. First climbed by Chuck and Ellen Wilts in 1948, but perhaps already named prior to that?
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
|
Byran... Good opinion!
And I too am perplexed by Rixon's. I have a decent library and an above average knowledge of Valley climbing and can find no mention of who Mr. (or Mrs. or Miss) Rixon is or was.
|
|
StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
|
I'm with DMT on this one. Put it out there and let it stand on it's own merit. Spray it all you want, but go easy on slandering what people are doing today.
It just freakin' rock climbing for Buddha's sake. Respect is important, hero worship is creepy.
|
|
Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
|
I've been working on a New Book for the past two years with Largo called "Yosemite in the 50's" The Iron Age. It will be avabile the beginning of September, Published thur Patagonia Books. This is a Great Book, a labor of Love and Obbession. . .df
This will be the Third climbing History Book about Yosemite from we've made, The StoneMasters, Valley Climbers and now Yosemite in the 50's. . .
|
|
EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 04:40pm PT
|
Read through your list to see if you "forgot" Bev Johnson, but you did not
so at least you are ok.. : )
Ultimately the climbs are more important than the people
some realized that early and never reported a route they did.
Many could learn to climb with a little more coherence in general,
but there are some, and at least one on your list, who did not.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
|
Dean! So looking forward to that. Gotta make more room on the shelf!
|
|
EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
|
and.. Ron, Dale, but not Tony?
oh by the way, after Westbay, Long, and Birdwell did the Nose in a day,
Dale Bard and Tony Yaniro fixed to sicle.. and in the morning started up, Dale insisted on hanging out for 45 minutes or so most of the way up so they would not look like they were trying to set a record… which they did not do because they fixed the first four pitches..
back at camp 4 eating LUNCH someone asked what they did that morning… "oh the nose"
came the answer.. nobody even contemplated that they were serious, they had cut the record in half. i think it took another 10 years before someone else climbed the nose that fast.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
|
Wave you arms, embellish, lie out the sides of your mouth IT DOES NOT MATTER.
In 1945 Albert and Mabel Rixon stood in front of the pinnacle and took self portrait.
They called it Rixon's Pinnacle ........
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
|
ECF-
I am also an avid reader of climbing tomes.
**All four made it to the West Summit for a second time, which was snow lined and more straightforward, and established a snow cave at 7000m on the ridge connecting it to the main summit, which would be their high camp. Doug and Chris then had a go at the main summit, a 250m rock pinnacle which required many pitches of extreme rock climbing (Doug said it was difficult to estimate the climbing grade because the problems are very different at high altitude, but he said it was certainly the most technical climbing he ever did at that altitude). They reached the summit on July 13th as the sun was setting. Because it was so late in the day they knew they had to get down quickly while there was still some daylight, which they did by abseiling. During one pitch Doug took a 30m pendulum swing against a rock face and smashed his legs. He pushed off with one of them against the rock, and felt such unspeakable pain wrench through him that he realised it must be broken. He pushed off with the other leg, and felt the pain again. Both legs were broken, and they were on a small ledge a little below the summit, with more than 2000 metres of extreme climbing ahead of them if Doug was to get back to base camp safely.
“There wasn’t any fear, just anticipation,” said Doug. “I never had any doubt that I would get down, I just didn’t know how I was going to do it.”**
|
|
EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
|
Bullwinkle!
Since the book is about the iron age..
will it tell of John Salathe"s company?
That company made pins that looked strikingly like lost arrows!
and the company logo was a Diamond P !!
Looking forward to your accurate story as published by Chouinard.
Ed
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
|
Lynn's free ascent of the Nose may be the most momentous athletic achievement of any female in history, as far as one upping the men and the length of time before anyone followed in her footsteps.
|
|
this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
|
This book is incredible
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
|
The iron age Sounds just bad ass!
Thanks bullwinkle.
I'll get it at GPIW...
|
|
hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
|
Mark Twain goes to Pompeii and he walks into a home whose stone threshold has been worn down an inch by all of the people who have visited the family over the years. 1600 years (and a volcanic eruption) later he wonders who these people were and what did they do?
So who was that who pinned out Serenity Crack?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
|
I did it several times with pins so that banana eating monkeys could do it free later.
The Iron Age .....
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
|
Honor the story tellers. That's how history thru the ages has been passed down to the many generations.....that listen.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
|
You are so right, Warbler. But timing is everything. Trying to get on the same page with Beckey and TM for our book. Everyone says, get TM at a campfire......yeah. Trying.
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
|
Werner, I really felt similar, re your first post on response to this thread.
But history keeps individuals alive after they have gone. It does have value.
It's not just the younger who have never learned stories - I was talking to a climbing partner of mine, over 70 year old, and mentioned Steve Petro and Jim Collins, in the context of different conversations, and he had heard of neither.
If someone tells a good story, and the story is spread, people learn the history. This is what Steve Grossman is trying to accomplish, no? This is why I subscribe to a climbing magazine - I read good stories every month. this is what people do here on the Taco. Good stuff.
phyl
|
|
Flip Flop
climber
salad bowl, california
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
|
Tutokanula
Galen Clark
George Anderson
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
|
Yosemite’s Pioneer Cemetery
I live across the street from there.
The ghosts come out of there in the stormy night winters.
I've seen them ......
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:20pm PT
|
Warbler, will do, seriously....if I can't get the story I know Tommy will help.
Werner, talk about ghosts, come visit Tioga Pass Resort. Oh yeah! We'll put you in one of the "special" cabins.
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:33pm PT
|
I would agree, studly. I think lots of climbing achievements rank at the top of the scale of human athletic accomplishments. To tout it as her one upping the men only draws attention to the fact that men have always one upped women across the board in every other facet of climbing. Other than pregnant ascents. Hahahahah!
Honor the story tellers. That's how history thru the ages has been passed down to the many generations.....that listen. This is why I don't like the term "spray," it deters people from telling the stories we love.
I'm relatively young and love history, maybe because it helps me find places where there is none... Sorry Yosemite Valley
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
|
Since we are deep into history, here is a trip report written by Guy Waterman in 1978.
The International Climbing Clubs Expedition to Northern Pillar
First reports have begun to filter back from the Shawangunks on the fate of the
ill-starred International Climbing Club’s Expedition to Northern Pillar. Despite
the array of some of the best climbing talent from among the various clubs that
climb in the Shawangunks, it appears the massive undertaking has not been
successful.
Christian Dhyrenhoffer was the leader who conceived and organized the
International Expedition. For it, he assembled a diverse team of stars from the
mountaineering world. This very fact may have created part of the problem that
was to plague the expedition; too many top-flight individuals and not enough
teamwork or experience at working together.
The group included:
Kevin Bein of the Harvard Mountaineering Club
Paul Harrison of the Dartmouth Mountaineering Club
Paul LeDoux of the MIT Outing Club
Dick Williams of the New Vulgarian Mountain Club
Lester Germer of the Old Vulgarian Mountin Club
John Monten &
Walter Baumann of the Degenerate Mountain Club
Jim Waterman of DMC, also repesenting the largest
Climbing organization in the East – his family
Ira Brant and Herb Cahn of the Appalachian Mountain Club
Leon Greenman of Leon Greenman Inc.
Harry Hunt of Camp and Trail Outfitters
Gardner Perry of Gardner Perry Inc.
Dhyrenhoffer, leader
Although this obviously represented a uniformly high level of technical climbing
ability, the average age was high for a Shawangunks expedition; 48 years. (Of
course when Lester Germer dropped out the average age dropped to 22—but
still it is well known that most of the good climbs now done at the
Shawangunks are done by people 15 years old or younger.)
A bigger problem for the International Expedition was that despite the great
array of climbing talent, the members did not even have a common language,
did not all know each other, and had never worked together as a team.
For example, consider the problems when Greenman, Hunt, and Perry were
together on one rope. They obviously did not speak the same language and
therefore could not be expected to work together smoothly. It was not
altogether surprising to learn of incidents such as Greenman sinking his alpine
hammer into Hunt’s achille’s tendon, Hunt severing the fixed rope Greenman
was ascending and Perry pushing both of them into a crevasse. (These
incidents were faithfully reported by Williams, as objective observer of them.
William’s account failed to mention what happened to Perry, but none of the
three has since been heard from.)
A preview of some of the expedition’s troubles was detected even earlier, when
base Camp supplies were opened on the Carriage Road directly below the pillar.
Dhyrenhoffer had delegated the purchase of food to Baumann. When the 900
porters (hired from among the high school girls brought up to the cliffs during
the past season by Sirdar Dave Loeks) unloaded the 2700 food packages, it was
discovered that Baumann had included 10 boxes of Cornish game Hen, 10
boxes of Kippered Snacks, 10 boxes of larks tougues, and 2670 cases of a local
brew, pronounced inferior by Williams, shortly before his speech became
entirely unintelligible.
A further problem unfolded when Dhyrenhoffer’s climbing plans were
disclosed. The main attempt was to be up the fearsome Northern Pillar. But
Dhyrenhoffer had another card up his sleeve. Although most previous parties to
climb the pillar had taken either the Madame G route, or Le Teton, or Cemetary
Wall – all basically walkups; the intimidating Southern Pillar route had been
pioneered by the Americans in 1963 ( Americans like Hans Kraus, Fritz
Weissner, and other Mayflower descendents). The Southern Pillar involved
serious technical climbing.
Dhyrenhoffer’s game plan was to send a second team up the Southern Pillar.
For this route he had picked Bein, Harrison and LeDoux; apparently promising
Bein he could be the first Harvardman up the pillar, Harrison that he could be
the first Dartmouthman, and LeDoux that he could be the first
Massachsettsinstituteoftechnologyman.
He had still one further trick up his sleeve. The first woman to climb the pillar
would have a modest niche in mountain climbing history. In picking the right
person however, Dhyrenhoffer encountered unexpected troubles. First he had
delegated Monten to select the woman; he had one picked out alright, but
somehow that fell through. Then he asked Brant to pick one; this seemed set
till it was discovered Raquel Welch couldn’t climb (mountains). Finally at the last
moment he had requested Williams to pick the person. Apparently Williams
misunderstood the function the woman was to fill on the expedition, so
Dhyrenhoffer’s plans were thwarted. However an excellent mutton stew
provided the party with fresh meat dinners for several days.
As it turned out, tragedy struck during the early days of work on the Southern
Pillar route. Williams and Germer had descended to Emile’s which is where the
whole party would generally go after putting in a long day on the pillar
(generally around 1:30). Although a superb climber Williams was not
accustomed to Emile’s, having done most of his difficult technical work in
recent years at the Homestead. He got hung up on a keg and could not get off
it. His partner returned to Base Camp on the Carriage Road and went to sleep.
When daylight descended and Williams had still not returned, a rescue party
was formed with Bein, Monten and Baumann. Most of the party never reached
Williams, getting pinned down themselves near the door when Bein made a
simple Sicilian gesture to the bartender that was interpreted as an order for a
pitcher, which of course had to be consumed. At one point Baumann did make
a daring traverse, unroped, to the point where Williams lay. Seeing that Williams
was unconscious and determining that nothing could be done, Baumann with
his characteristic British understatement yelled, “You goddamn
motherf*#kereatshit”, and returned to his comrades.
When this news reached Base Camp, the party was thunderstruck. At that point
Dhyrenhoffer made a decision which was to split the party with dissension. He
cancelled the attack on Southern Pillar to concentrate all remaining efforts and
resources on the Northern Pillar. Further, he passed over Germer and
Waterman, a smoothly matched team whose turn it was to lead, and selected
Cahn and Brant for the summit bid. Brant and Cahn are about the hottest rock
and gin team in the climbing world now, but Dhyrenhoffer’s decision did not sit
well.
Bein, Harrison, and LeDoux revolted. Bein resigned from the expedition with
this blast: “They expect me, Kevin Bein, Harvard Mountaineering Club member,
employee of Leon Greenman, INC., 132 Spring St., to work as a sherpa for
Anglosaxons and Japanese. (sic) Never! This is not me but Harvard they have
insulted.” Harrison and LeDoux also quit, as did Waterman and Germer.
(Actually Germer’s principle complaint involved the decision to discard his 1939
hemp rope in favor of a modern variety that Germer regarded as insufficiently
tested.)
Curiously, at this juncture a serious bid to climb Northern Pillar was made by
Brant and Cahn, supported by Monten and Baumann.
After two months of hard work the party had succeeded in pushing from the
Carriage Road to the base of the pillar. From here Brant and Cahn found a route
up a holdless wall 90 feet to a camp at 1140 feet on April 23. On May 10 they
found a campsite at 1190 feet on a tiny ledge. Then on May 17 they fought
their way to a final camp at 1220 feet, at the start of the huge intimidating
Merkyl Cracks( or Kraus Cracks).
At this point Brant and Cahn had been on the mountain 17 days straight, living
on martinis and olives straight. This was a longer time than anyone had ever
spent on a climb in the Shawangunks (except of course, Dave Ingalls). Whether
the ordeal had clouded their judgment or not is uncertain, but on May 19
Dhyrenhoffer at Base Camp fired off a red rocket, indicating Emile’s would open
at 10AM instead of 1PM. Brant and Cahn set off on a dash for the summit.
The fact was, however, Brant and Cahn had run out of gin and had to turn back.
They had been relying on Monten and Baumann in support to keep them
supplied. But toward the end the loads which the support party started off with
full, were nearly always empty by the time they reached high camp.
The International Climbing Clubs Expedition to Northern Pillar thus ended in
frustration and defeat. It is understood that Dhyrenhoffer feels that his effort
was a worthy successor to the major 1971 expeditions to the Himalaya, that it
learned much from them, and probably accomplished more than some of them.
Perhaps the International Climbing Clubs Expedition to Northern Pillar will point
the way to still greater mountaineering achievements in the future.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:34pm PT
|
^^^Thats quite someth'in JStan TFPU!
Is there a longer version somewhere?
This is turning out to be a great thread!
|
|
WyoTrad124
Trad climber
Wyoming
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:49pm PT
|
Mugs Stump???
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 09:14am PT
|
My previous comments were more about climbing history in general. If Yosemite can get it together and allow for a museum to open then obviously that will (as long as it's open) continue to help keep its history remembered.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 10:11am PT
|
I have been thinking about Ron's earlier post regarding the dismissal of Jim in the current C4 SAR. It actually angers me! That team would not be there if it were not for Jim.
Standing on the shoulders of giants.
|
|
BBA
Social climber
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 10:51am PT
|
Tom Rixon was Henry Knoll's partner on the first attempt of The Arrowhead Chimney, from the August 1942 Sierra Club Bulletin.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 11:04am PT
|
Rixon's Pinnacle got its name because Tom Rixon proposed it as a climbing problem, according to the Sierra Club Bulletin. Rixon was also on the first ascent of the Old Original route on Machete Ridge in Pinnacles.
Great story, jstan. Emile's was a legend of mythical proportions in my own mind, particularly after Joe Kelsey's hilarious tale in Summit in the early 1970's, (I think it was called "The Oceana Wall," but I'd have to check when I get home.) How could one not love Joe's line: "If only Mozart could see Mr. Cask!"
Finally, after some comments above, and with "Valley Uprising" fresh in my mind, I think the alleged Robbins-Harding rivalry was much less consequential than the Robbins-Cooper one. Harding was sui generis. I really don't remember anyone trying to emulate him, other than treating climbing as a source of fun.
John
|
|
Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 11:21am PT
|
Maybe this is an opportunity for Bridwell to do an episode for the CBS tv show Undercover Boss.
|
|
Highlife
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 11:35am PT
|
I don't post much on here. But was lurking and saw the above comments about the SAR site dismissing Jim Bridwell. I've been on the site for a number of years now and that's not the case at all, and I think that's a bogus inflammatory statement (i know I know, its the supertaco) aimed solely to put down the new generation (although I guess that's what this thread is about). But besides what were gonna climb next, one of the most common topics of conversation is how bad ass and inspiring the people that came before us were and how in awe of them we are to this day.
I don't know of any SAR siter who hasn't sat around the SAR parking area and listened raptly to Werner tell stories about the 70s.
I also know of the situation in question, which happened before I arrived on the team, and heard a different spin on the story (I know its all about perspective, and I'll guess there's truth on both sides) I also know that the women with whom that interaction took place was not on the SAR site, but the wife and/or fiance of a new member who was not there.
So anyways, far be it from me to expect civility from this crowd. But not super psyched to see the SAR sites name being publicly dragged through the mud because of one bad interaction someone had with Jim Bridwell 7 years ago.
Have fun with the internet bashing!
|
|
Highlife
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 11:37am PT
|
Also, in the last 5 years I have never seen any yellow tape wrapped around the SAR site.
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
|
Budmiller, I respect your statement and glad you can back the incident. How is what I said an "inflammatory statement"? It happened, you so much as say that, in that you know of the women and the incident happened. I am not trying to put SAR or the younger generation down in anyway. I've had many friends and great times in the SAR site. I was only relaying a story that indeed happen as related to "Pioneers Be Forgotten", SAR does a great job and service to all that need those services while in the park. Like I said....we laughed about it on the way back to the truck.
I'd be interested in knowing how you found out about it. Anyway, no ill intent on my post, you guys save a lot of butts!
Peace
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
|
Bud,
Thanks so much for the other take on this. always two sides to any story!
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
|
That's cool Tami. Me I was into learning the history of climbing too. I'm more of a math guy but some folks just love history - great!
What bothers me is more the moral judgment attached to our valuing climbing history - I cringed when I heard someone who didn't know the history, those poor lost souls who haven't followed my path of learning the history, etc. Sure it's cool if many of us enjoy the history that's great! Let's keep that history alive if it's important to us to validate and glorify our paths and experiences compared to others (those insolent whippersnappers!) paths and experiences.
But Me i think my kids are cool, non lost soul, super uncringeworthy even if they don't care about our history :-) Hey they're just like you!
|
|
son of stan
Boulder climber
San Jose CA
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
|
Pioneers, by definition, arrive on horses or wagons pulled
by critters with 4 legs.
If, on the other hand, your arrival in the valley is heralded
by empty beer cans falling onto the ground, as you exit the door of
your gasoline powered car. You may be a hero but still just a tourist
dirtbag climber.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
|
When I started climbing I didn't give a hoot about prior climbers or history of climbing, just like I don't care about current or past professional athletes or watching sports on TV. I just liked climbing.
I started caring more when I started climbing more in Yosemite for a few reasons:
1) When I started climbing in Yosemite, I had a big void in my life that I needed to fill, and I attached a lot of meaning to climbing to do that. Part of attaching more meaning to climbing meant that adding more layers of understanding and back-story to the activities I did made it a richer experience that filled a bigger part of that void, made me feel more part of a "community" when I was feeling very dissociated from my family.
2) Knowing some history of climbing and specific climbers helps to forecast the level of adventure associated with doing specific routes or visiting certain areas. It is like a piece of a puzzle when playing the game of re-discovering old routes.
3) Knowing history sheds some light on quality and spacing of bolts.
4) I now see history/remembrance as a sort of currency, showing appreciation to those who got the bolts in there and left some grand stories and a paper trail to fuel my adventures
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
|
Most climbing history is highly local. I know lots of AZ climbing lore but wouldn't expect others to care.
Beyond the 70s shenanigans that we are constantly reminded of, what was done in the valley that is of any global climbing significance? The hammer era was essentially a disgrace and how many current routes harder than 5.10 or so don't rely on a key holds that are pin scars? One could argue that Yosemite gave rise to modern fast climbing in the big ranges but, between the chipped routes and readily available rescues, it really is not much different from a gym.
So i think lots of pioneers will be forgotten outside of the local scene, not because they were not great folks and and great climbers, but because the history of climbing in yos is very overrated by the still living participants.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
|
The hammer era was essentially a disgrace
Wow! Really? 40 years from now will we read the "roped era was essentially a disgrace"?
Hmmm... yea, probably. From my perspective:sad.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
|
Hammers are / were condoned chipping. Harder climbing on passive gear was common place in the UK and elsewhere decades prior. To my knowledge no rope created a chipped shitshow like Serenity Crack.
Most if not all of the major alps north faces had been climbed in far better style before any major wall California climb. The only thing comparable to 50s-early 80s wall climbs were the Himalayan sieges, which at least took place at altitude, in real weather and more than a few hundred yards from a highway.
Again, I am not saying many of California's yos climbers were not great climbers, but in the big picture little was done there.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 06:48pm PT
|
Wait... is that my jaw that just bounced off the ground?
but in the big picture little was done there.
"there" being the Valley.
I respect what was being done in the Alps, Germany, France, Italy, and Britain but I cannot condone this statment.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
|
Kevin, I did more than a few routes with Yabo while he was under the influence of whatever he could find and he still made me look like a fool.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
|
Yabo might have climbed harder when he was under the influence, but not better.
Does anyone remember when John Peck was the first one to ride the Pipeline on acid? I thought so.
Was it this fateful day in 1963. No one is saying. John is still riding today. On acid? Probably some days.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 07:36pm PT
|
Everything is forgotten until one re-awakens .......
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
|
Now that puts it all into perspective Herr Braun. You have a knack for that. Saves me a lot of explaining.
"One man gathers what another man spills."
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 10:22am PT
|
I think that whether people are motivated to remember the history is really about the value that history has to them. So for young climbers maybe it's fun to think about the good old days and how far we've come and how they're members of this wild tribe of adventurers, or maybe they need to break from the past and adventure off on their own. For the pioneers themselves either as DMT nails it "Legacy!", like Bridwell being pissed about not being known, or legacy is not really what they were in it for, like Bridwell laughing off getting booted from SAR site. Or maybe some of each. For the rest of us, to the extent that we like thinking about climbing when we're not climbing, and doing so validates our awesomeness to be associated with our tribe's actions, it's fun to think about the history of climbing.
But in addition to our individual relationships to climbing history, we also make a moral judgment about whether or not other people should be interested in climbing history. Sorry if I misunderstand, but to me, that seems to be what this thread is about. A big part of that, I think, is that we feel disrespected by young people who don't value that history - they lack humility and respect and gratitude towards our accomplishments and the advantages that we've carved out for them. So for example in the 5.10d thread's exchange that inspired this thread, FatDad tells SweetWilliam to listen to his mommy and go to sleep, in this thread the op cringes at SweetWilliams attitude (and grammar) and calls Yosemite pioneers "men" and young climbers "gym rats", Warbler needs to ascribe disinterest in climbing history to lack of stoke or need for more creativity, or my personal favorite, that if you're not interested in climbing history then you're a simpleton who needs to conserve your brain power :-)
But our real pioneers here on earth started 4 billion years ago. The advantages of our neoteny means that we retain juvenile characteristics into adulthood because doing so contributes to our evolutionary success (think Werner soloing up a crack with a boombox in one hand - how disrespectful! what would his mommy say? :-) But in those 4 billion years, have we learned to have humility and respect and gratitude for our biological pioneers and the path they've led us on to where we are today - the current complexity and diversity of life and the complexity and diversity of our own belief creation processes, and the way those belief processes work and are of value to us (eg the value of our SweetWilliams)? Not so much I think.
Why should Yosemite climbing history be different? Because we're losing our youthful perspectives. Those kids need to show proper respect! Even if we didnt and don't.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 11:02am PT
|
One could argue that Yosemite gave rise to modern fast climbing in the big ranges but, between the chipped routes and readily available rescues, it really is not much different from a gym.
This demonstrates how not knowing history leads to incorrect conclusions. Until the advent of the permanent SAR corps, rescue was by no means a sure thing. The Rowell/Harding rescue in 1968 was a first of its kind. The attempt (sad to say, unnecessary) to rescue Pratt and Fredericks resulted in the death of the rescuer. There wasn't a truly successful rescue from El Cap until the rescue on the West Buttress in fall of 1970 (since one of the rescued is a friend, I'll keep that one anonymous).
Accordingly, the pioneering routes in the Valley until, really, the early 1970's, did not have readily available rescue.
Also, those doing those routes demonstrated their care and concern for those coming after in the rapid conversion to clean climbing in the early 1970's. As Kevin points out, pitons were all we had at first, but I, for one, started using nuts (making my own forerunners of tube chocks and Stoppers because none were commercially available) as soon as I found out about nuts. And let's face it - I was just a "normal" climber. I was following trends, not leading them.
When we forget what happened, we draw the wrong conclusions and sometimes, justify actions that cannot be justified. As DMT and I have both argued, those who come after determine historical significance, but they should make their determinations based on accurate information.
John
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
|
Agreed JEleazarian. How far back are we willing to go in remembering our history? Do we just go back to when we had chipped routes and readily available rescues?, or do we just go back to when the first climbers showed up in Yosemite? It seems to me that however far back we feel is advantageous for us to go, we're unwilling to go back farther and try to understand why that's where we stop, and why we're unwilling to accept the reality and commonality of our human belief processes, because we want to be able to justify our (individual) perspective and condemn the other ones.
Sure when the zombie apocalypse comes I'm going to be fvcked! because having ignored the history of the automobile, I don't know how to hotwire a car. But in the meanwhile I'm alive here on earth benefitting from the human belief processes that the pioneers have paved for me.
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
|
Nice story of some history! Thanks Kevin.......a pioneer/legend/StoneMaster in climbing history. These stories must be carried on, because young or old, history helps us understand where we came from.
20 years from now, history will be told in the 13 y/o that first climbed 5.15! I started and I don't even know if 12's where being done.....do know there where no cams on my rack yet. I marvel in what is still being pushed as I marveled when Bachar told me, he and Peter had just done El Cap and Half Dome....I laughed and he replied...."what ever Bro" shrugged his shoulders and proceeded to walk down the main path in C-4.
Peace
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
|
How many here free climbed routes in the days before hexes and cams.
If you drove your protection pins too hard your second wouldn't be able to clean them and if you drove them too light the piton could rip out if you fell on it.
Mannn what nerve racking way to climb back then.
Long run outs and with death fall potentials, heavy gear for protection, hammers, shitty harnesses, crappy heavy ropes, stooopid free climbing boots etc etc.
Can't wait to do it all over again ..... :-)
|
|
mastadon
Trad climber
crack addict
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 06:36pm PT
|
First time on Meat Grinder we used pins. First time on Sacherer Crack we used pins. Backed off Center Moby Dick when I ran out of large bongs. Climbed on the apron with pitons and hammer.
On the NW face of Half Dome in 1972, we didn't take a single nut.
Those were the days. Don't miss them. Meat Grinder was literally a puke fest with pitons.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
|
Don, next time we meet we'll do the grinder with pitons, mountain double boots and hemp rope.
And of course you'll be leading it .... :-)
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
|
Meat Grinder was literally a puke fest with pitons.
Jesus, what an experience that must have been.
The pioneers live on through mentor-ship of the next generation. It has already happened, continues to and will forever occur.
It is natural to hand over the adventure to the younger climber provided they really care.
I talk about the pioneers every chance I get. Some are posting on this thread.
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
|
Nerve wracking....isn't there a climb in Tuolumne with some similarity
Werner, you remember the C-4 incident???
Peace
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
|
Will Pioneers Be Forgotten?
Is the sky blue?
An assumption underlies our attitudes here. That there can be some sort of certified history that everyone can accept. Clearly not. And in the face of new equipment, new practices, new tricks, and above all else memories , old experiences can never be reproduced.
Why try? We did what we did with the people we wanted to do it with. The experience is a memory but also a memory shared by the participants. That's plenty. Why pretend it can be made into something else?
Guy Waterman caught very accurately what Gunks climbing was in the 70's. Glorious fun.
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
|
Keep it up guys. This is Gold. Please keep passing the torch.
Thanks
Mike Cowper
|
|
Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2015 - 09:13pm PT
|
nice pics, Ron... when were those taken? I'm guessing at an OR show?
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
Taken in Yosemite Valley Tamara. Your Dad with Tom Frost and Joe Fitschen, they were along on the second ascent of The Nose, El Capitan with Chuck Pratt. Photo taken inside the Mountain Shop, Curry Village.
Peace
|
|
mastadon
Trad climber
crack addict
|
|
Didn't have the guts (brains?) to layback Meat Grinder when I first did it in 1972. Left side in the whole way. Closest I've come to heaving on a pitch ever.
Not the first time on Meat Grinder but prolly 1973 or 74.
Werner-I don't have any bongs left. Please don't tell me that you do… That would certainly raise some eyebrows at the Cookie-the sound of bongs being hammered into the Meat Grinder. Haha, might almost be worth it. Did you ever install that license plate frame I gave you??
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
Lately I've been carrying 3 or four pins on every new route outing. We leave them fixed in sections where you could at best get a shetty RP, thin stopper, or have to run it out. Since these routes are out in the middle of nowhere and not likely to be repeated there is nothing for anyone else to remember. Perhaps hundreds of years from now someone will ponder the reason for the anomalous rust stains.
|
|
Scottnorthwest
Trad climber
Sumner Washington
|
|
The nice thing about the "Legends" of Yosemite is most of them were still around in the 80's when I was there and were happy to talk to you and climb with you. The first one I ever met was TM Herbert, he showed up in the Mountain Room Bar late and joined my room mate and I at out table. We talked about our favorite climbs and he asked us what we were doing the next day. We told him we were climbing and he asked to join us. I was pretty new at the time and that was a big deal. I hope TM is still around, one of the funniest guys I have met.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
I'd heard the same story about Klemens and Bates, Kevin - although from neither of the principals - but no matter. If we both heard it, it must be true.
I was too cheap to buy Clog hexes, and I think I owned one MOAC, but Dan Smith and I took a trip to his home in Belmont, then to his favorite metal supplier, where we bought some aluminum hexagonal stock, some thick aluminum irrigation pipe (about 1 1/4" OD), and a 2" X 2" x6" block of soft aluminum. I made a bunch of hexes and tube chocks by sawing the stock with a hacksaw, and drilling holes with a hand drill at my father's furniture store. I made MOAC-like (and Stopper-like) wedges of various widths, again using the hacksaw, then filing things smooth. I think Dan got ahold of a rock tumbler and made some much nicer ones. The rest of the block got sawn into smashies. It was a high-value trip for this impoverished Berkeley student.
It wasn't more than a month before one of my home-made hexes got field tested, in a way that sounds similar to yours, but on rather gentler terrain (the Harding Route on the GPA), when I misjudged a lieback and took a 20-foot slide. My homemade hex, placed endwise, held just fine.
I remember first seeing Stoppers and first-generation Hexcentrics in 1971, but I didn't really start using them in a big way until 1972. By 1973, if I took an angle with me (particularly on a free climb), David Altman would demand to know why. By then, I started leaving the hammer behind on most free routes.
It's funny, as I contemplete the "wealth/poverty" thread elsewhere on ST. I was flat broke most of the time then, but very rich in climbing time and adventure.
John
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
|
That there can be some sort of certified history that everyone can accept
Do we all accept the history of Washington? Edison? Watson& Crick? MLK? The Kennedy assassination?
No, but they remain historically significant nonetheless.
Does this mean I am putting Westbay, Long & Bridwell on the Nose alongside the first president? No. But that does not mean it is less important in y eye.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
It looked like OW to me when I nailed the first pitch, Warbler. :0)
We n00bs didn't know what the climb was, and this was in fall of '70.
Mathis and me and McAllister, one of our first attempts at being hard, but it ended when Mathis said we'd never have enough pins!
I went and bought more iron, but we never ever went back out of shame when we found what it was from the guys in camp. We both thought OW.
It's never interested me, either, not after hearing about Matt's fall.
It's only taken me what, 45 years to find this out? Ha! Thanks.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
A significant factor at play in the contemporary world is the accelerated loss of historical knowledge and understanding in general---driven by recent technology.
An average Millennial learns all he/she needs to know and navigate in the real world from peers in social media and from the general state of technological connectedness--- and not from prior generations, as was the case traditionally.
Such is the nature and the pace of change at the current time.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
It is a fact that there is too much history to learn. One learns only what interests oneself and lets the rest slide into the gray area.
It is natural for the pioneers to become "quaint" for the "modern generation," who will suffer the same fate, ultimately.
What would Herodotus say? Easy peasey to find out: look it up online!
"Historia (Inquiry); so that the actions of of people will not fade with time."
― Herodotus
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2018 - 07:34pm PT
|
I brake for Bird sh!t...
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2018 - 07:42pm PT
|
George G. Anderson...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2018 - 07:44pm PT
|
Will Yosemite Pioneers Be Forgotten?
What did they ever pioneer for humanity?
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2018 - 07:47pm PT
|
Ahwahnechee
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
|
I have to make it a habit before posting to see if I have weighed in once already. I here violate my rule not to post often .
Fifteen years ago a Gunks climber told me even after thirty years, people there were still picking up cigarette butts. I wasn't a pioneer nor was I the proximate cause. But it is just great to see people moving in a good direction. That's all that counts.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2018 - 08:12pm PT
|
HATE THAT!
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2018 - 08:27pm PT
|
I walked a section of the Hollywood Walk of Fame with my daughter yesterday. I was surprised that I only recognized about 5% of the names on the stars after a few blocks!
All we are is dust in the wind.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2018 - 08:42pm PT
|
Gold dust brother...
Ryan Frost photo
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2018 - 10:35pm PT
|
^^ that is a GREAT shot! The joyful boy still shines through.
I’m really grateful for the role models of the climbing world that have opened my eyes to the possibilities of aging. I’ve gained so much from following their routes, and I hope that I gain even more following their example in my later years.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 05:40am PT
|
I don't think the Yosemite pioneers will really be forgotton.. If anything, I see more interest in recording thier stories and more books and documntaries being made. Sites like this one record a lot of this history for posterity.
There is always going to be some disconnect with certain age groups and people outside the California/Yosemite bubble- but when has that not been the case? There is just a much larger number of climbers nationwide these days. It may take a few decades for the millenials to take an interest.
@ NutAgain!- not suprising you didn't recognize most of the names. The Walk is for sale to anyone who has done... anything... in the entertainment industry (including off screen). All they need is a nomination from a friend and $30,000.00 . The Hollywood Chamber of Congress does have to agree though.
Funny factoid: "The Hollywood Chamber of Commerce, which oversees the awarding of this singular honor, announced in 2013 that [Kim] Kardashian is unworthy of being walked upon by tourists because, as a reality TV star, she lacks a key attribute: talent."
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 07:49am PT
|
"Celluloid Heroes"
Everybody's a dreamer and everybody's a star,
And everybody's in movies, it doesn't matter who you are.
There are stars in every city,
In every house and on every street,
And if you walk down Hollywood Boulevard
Their names are written in concrete!
Don't step on Greta Garbo as you walk down the Boulevard,
She looks so weak and fragile that's why she tried to be so hard
But they turned her into a princess
And they sat her on a throne,
But she turned her back on stardom,
Because she wanted to be alone.
You can see all the stars as you walk down Hollywood Boulevard,
Some that you recognise, some that you've hardly even heard of,
People who worked and suffered and struggled for fame,
Some who succeeded and some who suffered in vain.
Rudolph Valentino, looks very much alive,
And he looks up ladies' dresses as they sadly pass him by.
Avoid stepping on Bela Lugosi
'Cos he's liable to turn and bite,
But stand close by Bette Davis
Because hers was such a lonely life.
If you covered him with garbage,
George Sanders would still have style,
And if you stamped on Mickey Rooney
He would still turn round and smile,
But please don't tread on dearest Marilyn
'Cos she's not very tough,
She should have been made of iron or steel,
But she was only made of flesh and blood.
You can see all the stars as you walk down Hollywood Boulevard,
Some that you recognise, some that you've hardly even heard of.
People who worked and suffered and struggled for fame,
Some who succeeded and some who suffered in vain.
Everybody's a dreamer and everybody's a star
And everybody's in show biz, it doesn't matter who you are.
And those who are successful,
Be always on your guard,
Success walks hand in hand with failure
Along Hollywood Boulevard.
I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes,
Because celluloid heroes never feel any pain
And celluloid heroes never really die.
You can see all the stars as you walk along Hollywood Boulevard,
Some that you recognise, some that you've hardly even heard of,
People who worked and suffered and struggled for fame,
Some who succeeded and some who suffered in vain.
Oh celluloid heroes never feel any pain
Oh celluloid heroes never really die.
I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes,
Because celluloid heroes never feel any pain
And celluloid heroes never really die.
Ray Davies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh23A2GptAQ
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
|
That Frost smile is worth gold! Kind of makes one ponder, he just might enjoy climbing.......
|
|
jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 02:52pm PT
|
Bev Johnson was super cool, got to climb with her a bunch in the late 80's up until her death on April 3, 1994. I was set to go on a trip to Kelly Wy with Bev 2 weeks before her death, got a phone call from my Dad saying her and Mike Hover and the President of Disney had a bad accident while Heliskiing. I cried a bunch, it was the day before by birthday. R.I.P Bev.
|
|
Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 03:13pm PT
|
My introduction to climbing began in September 1961. In a few other threads I’ve related the details of that introduction. You may have read from The Original Vulgarian:
“I spent the entire Saturday climbing at Stoney in a pair of John’s mountain boots two sizes too small for me. He took me around the entire area, climbing everything in sight. By the end of the day I could barely lift my arms. I was exhausted - but was I stoked!
That evening at John’s apartment, … , John [Hansen] filled me with Gerwurztraminer and tales from his Vulgarian Shawangunks days. Well into the evening he talked about mountaineering – famous European and American climbers and climbing history. He pulled six mountaineering books off his shelf and insisted I take them home and read them.”
My reading list included:
Gaston Rebuffat’s Starlight and Storm
Lionel Terray’s Conquistadors of the Useless
Maurice Herzog’s AnnapurnaS
Edward Whymper’s Scrambles Amongst the Alps
Clarence King’s Mountaineering in the Sierra Nevada
A.F. Mummery’s My Climbs in the Alps and the Caucasus
Needless-to-say, my “introduction” included a basic history lesson. The Golden Age of Yosemite had just begun. Books covering that Age did not yet exist. Any Yosemite history was brief and oral, but John filled in what he knew from Anderson through Salathe, Steck, Harding, Robbins, Frost, Chouinard, and Pratt.
In September of 1962, I completed my first Yosemite climb (Higher Cathedral Spire) and finished off Hansen’s reading list. A pile of back issues of Summit Magazine brought me pretty much up-to-date.
I had acquired a respectable background in the history of climbing and most importantly I had, and still retain, considerable respect for that history. Should be a required prerequisite to calling yourself a climber.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 06:13pm PT
|
I say we get old Clint's head in a jar of clear fluid like they do on that Futurama dealie.
When you're done with it, of course, CC! :0)
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 06:16pm PT
|
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 07:29pm PT
|
Climbing history and the written word are far from dead and it comes down to the question of presentation and access. Bricks and mortar are dead but the ongoing history of the routes that we all share and the names behind the routes and their attendant adventures boils down to how many clicks in it all is. Those of us who emptied out the library shelves like myself are now trying to distill all of those accounts down to their compelling essence in the hope that interested souls will hunger for more and seek it out.
When I started the North American Climbing History Archives(NACHA) back in 2014 it was with this mission: To gather,document and celebrate climbing history in image, word and artifact with special emphasis on personalities and events in North America and fostering climbing culture.
Toward that end I have posted thousands of images and scanned article pages on this forum and organized many historical gatherings to allow younger climbers to connect directly with the events and estimable climbers that set the table for what is going on in the world of climbing now.
We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us and knowing more about our collective experience enriches us all while we step out and learn what we can on rock and ice.
Life is too short to be willingly ignorant.
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 07:39pm PT
|
Nice Steve and a big guy like you can get away with saying "Life is too short!"................
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2018 - 08:18pm PT
|
With heroes like Pratt, YC and your estimable ass I come by my adulation honestly...
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Feb 25, 2018 - 02:26am PT
|
Freddy are you keeping any narrative history of the Swell, especially the Dylan wall. Ought to be doable since it's mostly you!
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 25, 2018 - 05:18pm PT
|
Wikipedia page views: Dave Rearick, Bob Kamps = 2 or 3 a day. Chuck Pratt = 33 per day. Tom Frost = 49 per day. No page for Mark Powell. Warren Harding = 100+ per day. Royal Robbins = 203 per day. Yvon Chouinard = 554 per day.
Roughly speaking, the luminaries are remembered. Many of those who were just as good, not so much.
|
|
Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 01:22am PT
|
To answer the question: yes.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 09:04am PT
|
A somewhat less than Merry outlook from a fine and brave man recently described as a "Bad Ass Motherf*#ka" by a admiring young lady. Believe it brother.
The question is one of easy access to relevant history and not the content of your character or accomplishments which will certainly live on. We just don't have much climbing culture in this country which I am trying to change.
I remember flying back to Seattle from the Outdoor Retailer show quite a while ago and pointing out one of our best to a bunch of folks sitting nearby. "That tall fellow on the left up there is Big Jim Whittaker, the first American to summit Mt. Everest in 63". They were appreciative but simply didn't recognize him despite his stature.
As the profile of climbing steadily rises as it has in the last two decades the readily available variety and depth of mountaineering history needs to keep pace. The general public is fascinated by climbing and always has been. The challenge is properly feeding that interest.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 09:56am PT
|
Americans seem to want it all NOW!
But the Euros have had climbing to appreciate and on which to comment since its inception.
The culture of climbing grew apace with those of the earliest European pioneers and spread to other lands.
I'm not surprised that Big Jim was unknown to that group you mentioned, Steve. One can hope that gym-rats and others will begin (sooner rather thatn later) to appreciate the outdoor venues more than they apparently do. When that starts happening, maybe we will see a greater general awareness of who those pioneers were and the importance of their FAs and other discoveries.
Meanwhile, keep your noses to the grindstone, Steve and Bullwinkle and Ken and Corbett and the rest.
|
|
Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 10:30am PT
|
I would argue that the history has been preserved more in Yosemite than anywhere else in the U.S. There is also so much history in other areas of the country that weren't fortunate enough to have the writers and historians like Robbins, Frost, Long. I bet there were hard core climbers at places like the Tennessee Wall (I've never been), Devil's Lake, any number of "backwoods" places whose history has already been forgotten. I know we never documented anything back from the early days at Vedauwoo. There is some documented history here in the Wasatch but not all that much. Yosemite is fortunate in that there is a pretty well-preserved record of the pioneers.
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 11:57am PT
|
Today, I don't see a lot interest in reading printed periodicals. Most of what seems to be consumed is web content, which is heavily laden with videos of current climbing comps, travelogues, and some bouldering. Where are these kids going to find any of this history out? Back when I first got into climbing, you actually had to have a magazine to read on the toilet. Now, sh#t, you have your smart phone!
There is a lot of history with the "web content" of this very supertopo site.
Although whether anybody under 40 is reading anything from this site, I couldn't tell ya.
|
|
RussianBot
climber
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 11:57am PT
|
Climbing is the new curling! I don’t know about you, but I’m rushing out to brush up on all our heroes from curling history. I’ll bet the rest of the world is doing the same for climbing.
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 06:52pm PT
|
Now, barring some global cyber erasure of data, any person with a curious mind has access to endless data on everything
Before the Library of Alexandria burned, any person with a curious mind had access to endless data on everything. Paper and Papyrus are not very durable, and from my experience, neither are magnetic media or CDs. I don't know about solid-state thumb drives. But, without a working computer, none of that data is accessible.
Bronze statuary is pretty durable.
Maybe we could crowdfund a statue of Harding with a message in several languages, and swap out El Cap's "No Mud Falcons Allowed" sign.
Robbins' message could be where you divert from the cable trail to reach the NW face.
Bridwell could be at the Arch Rock entrance.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 07:02pm PT
|
Maybe we could crowdfund a statue of Harding with a message in several languages--Tom
You might take that idea to Derryberry.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 08:26pm PT
|
Will Yosemite pioneers be forgotten?
What about the larger, and much more important, question: Will climbing's pioneers be forgotten?
For Americans, particularly Californians, Yosemite _is_ climbing. But in the real world of climbing, Yosemite is just one little blip among many, and the OP question should be broadened to include all of climbing history.
Who here knows much about non-California climbers? Yeah, okay, there are a few of us, but this site is seriously California-centric, and California is hardly the world epicenter of climbing.
Case in point: Allen Steck just sent me (via Steve Grossman) a copy of his recently-published memoir, "A Mountaineer's Life." You all know about Allen, right? Pioneer Yosemite climber. East Buttress of El Cap. Steck-Salathe on Sentinel. But do you have any clue that these were the least of his climbing achievements?
Do any of you know who Bill Murray was? Voytek Kurtika? Mick Fowler?
California climbing will live on forever in a million web pages, books, and videos. The real question is whether the rest of climbing history, the _real_ climbing history, will live on or be forgotten.
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2018 - 11:38pm PT
|
Mostly older guys who get interested in climbing history. The bug didn't bite me until I turned 62. Then I started working on my website and delving into aspects of that history. But, I suspect many of the older guys on this site (with some exceptions) know very little about the history of our sport, beyond California, the Gunks, and a few other areas, and really don't care.
Think of all the young people who flock to the climbing gyms and perhaps never really commit to the outdoors. When they become old some of them will become interested in climbing history. The history of climbing gyms and international competitions.
Oliver Perry Smith, the finest American rock climber of the Edwardian age: Wikipedia page hits = 2 per day. Georg Winkler, young solo climber = 3 per day. Paul Preuss = 22 per day.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 03:19am PT
|
Whatever the activity, we all stand on the shoulders of those who preceded us. As a young climber I was inspired by books written by Bonatti, Buhl and Gervasutti. As an older climber I sometimes feel like a pivot point between those climbers whose path I followed and today’s young climbers who are taking climbing to levels thought impossible a few years ago.
|
|
Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 08:51am PT
|
I do think a big part of the knowledge gap is due to modern tech, although, as mentioned, lots of folks have never cared about history. When I started climbing, there was only one way to learn about it--a few mags and BOOKS. So I checked them out, got my parents to buy whatever they could find, and I read and re-read them, immersing myself in both European and American stories. I beat the hell out of Climbing in North America by Chris Jones and was quite star-struck as a lad to meet him at a couple of AAC meetings. Great guy! But I read Bonatti, Cassin (got to meet him, too), Gervasutti, Brown, Rebuffat (of course), Herzog (duh), and more. I loved the crap out of Climb! about Colorado climbing where I was first introduced to my heroes of Jim Erikson, Steve Wunsch, and Layton Freakin' Kor! Monsters all. And it wasn't just history. The point, really, was stories. Great stories about the sport that has guided much of my life. Reading these, too, gave me a sense of humility and perspective, which we all need.
My current read is history: Peter the Great by Robert Massie. Won the Pulitzer in 1980. Great read!
Gotta get that book about Valley climbing in the 50's. Sounds wonderful.
BAd
|
|
Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
|
Read Spencer's Mutability Canto in the Faerie Queen:
All is dust!
What I've noticed though is that kids who start in gyms and then go out and boulder and climb in traditional areas have a deep knowledge of who did what and when BITD. They also know about who's doing the modern test pieces. Of course, for every 500 people who go to gyms, there's only a handful who leave the incubator nest and move out into the field. But when they do, they seem to have a knowledge of test pieces and the history surrounding them. They even develop their own rock philosophy based on doing.
|
|
RussianBot
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 01:18pm PT
|
I’m not convinced it’s a function of how many people are engaged in the activity. Probably almost every single one of us is a speller, but I’d be surprised if we knew the history of our heroes who faced down the stress and the danger of humiliation to spell that last word correctly and win the National spelling bee!
We’re interested in what we’re interested in, and we want other people to be interested in it too. The interesting question to me is why? Why do we care whether other people are interested in / glorify the things that we’re interested in?
The stuff we (or others) are not interested in ... it’s not a question of whether that stuff will be forgotten - we were never interested enough to learn about it in the first place. Maybe it’s the same for other people and climbing, even other climbers who just aren’t interested in the history of climbing.
And why should they be? They’re gonna answer that one for themselves, just like we do. I wonder why we answer it the way we do? I don’t know jack about our spelling bee heroes.
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
|
I enjoyed Chris Jones' book on climbing in North America when it came out.
It would be great to see someone take this format/concept from 1975 to the present
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 02:55pm PT
|
Marlowe started a thread in 2015 about Walter Parry Haskett Smith, arguably the father of Anglo rock climbing as a sport (1880s). Using my simplistic metric of Wiki page visits, he has about 4 per day, and so is relatively forgotten - though not entirely of course. Another star performer and pioneer was Owen Glynne Jones, who during the 1890s became Britain's first "tiger." His page hits are about 3 per day.
How many boulderers these days can identify Oscar Eckenstein, arguably the father of Anglo bouldering (1880s)? Well, I was pleasantly surprised to see that his Wiki page gets 22 or so hits per day. Not completely forgotten. But Pierre Allain, who championed the activity in the 1930s and 1940s has only 7 or so visits per day.
It's one thing to know something of the generation preceding your own, and another to go back several generations. But, really, who cares? I bet if you asked an up and coming young gymnast about the stars of the 1936 Olympic games, he wouldn't have a clue - and why should he? But he would certainly know the recent champions of the sport.
|
|
Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 03:31pm PT
|
One of the great things about time is that it separates those whose deeds were worth remembering from those whose deeds were not.
So much of our history is written by and centers around the exploits of those who had the time to document it, not necessarily those who did amazing things.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
|
If you are young and fervently pursuing the athlectic aspects of climbing it’s history may hold little interest for you. If climbing becomes the abiding passion of a lifetime, delving into it’s short but fascinating history will enrich your journey.
|
|
wayne burleson
climber
Amherst, MA
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 02:08pm PT
|
I think the availability of vast amounts of fresh and glossy information on the internet is mostly responsible for the lack of interest in more traditional media including books and magazines.
We see the same in engineering. Students know who Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are, but don't know or care about Shannon, Fourier, or Maxwell...
|
|
Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
|
|
|
Mar 21, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
|
They've forgotten Fourier's theorem for sampling, quantizing and encoding?
Shame on them!
|
|
Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2018 - 02:54pm PT
|
first, who is Paul Preuss? (yes I'm serious, but no, I don't need an answer)
second, I've been finding that climbing history is in a revival stage. Maybe it's just because I have been necessarily immersed in it myself for the last several years, but I believe there IS interest overall by new climbers.
third, Yvon's recent words come to mind, "If the russians attacked this building right now the entire history of climbing would be erased" - so cheers to no Russians blowing up Modesto last week ;)
|
|
Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2018 - 03:58pm PT
|
Thank you Brian! ;)
|
|
Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2018 - 04:01pm PT
|
Who has read "Where Clouds Can Go" by Konrad Cain?
Paul Preuss died soloing and therefore is unimportant to me. If you die climbing then you have failed the game, insulted the community and hurt anyone that you loved. Only climbers who survive climbing are important. In My Cranky Opinion.
|
|
Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
|
Not if you internalize what Dad wrote (see my post in the Yosemite Pioneers being forgotten thread)....
And, how are you/we to be the judges of whether a climber CHOSE to or happened to die?
Also, (as an example, not taking anything personally...) are you saying that if Dad had died climbing, his significance in the sport and the world would have been completely altered?
While completely understanding and respecting your admission of being cranky, the post simply begged to be questioned ;)
|
|
Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2018 - 04:26pm PT
|
[quote]
Also, (as an example, not taking anything personally...) are you saying that if Dad had died climbing, his significance in the sport and the world would have been completely altered[/quote
Do you need me to answer that? Yes. His life and his career would have been completely altered. Wouldn't your life have been altered completely?
That's why Ricardo Cassin and your dad are worthy legends and guys like Paul Preuss, Hersey, Potter are just cautionary footnotes.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 159 of total 159 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!