Discussion Topic |
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 13, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
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Let's face it. No grade gets more lambasted than 5.10d.
Everyone wants to be able to climb 5.10 - it is the new standard for transition into bigger grades.
5.10d pisses people off if they can't do it, it makes them feel like they can't climb 5.11 - which sucks if you are itching for grades.
I give you an example of an exasperating one:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/hemp-liberation/105815129
Thoughts?
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thebravecowboy
climber
the Midcontinent Rift
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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.10c can be pretty full-value, I think. S-crack starts as near-horizontal .5 and cruxes (for me) on the vertical .75s. the rest is a cakewalk, har har.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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thank for the photo, 'cowboy
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SweetWilliam
Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:12pm PT
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This one 10d was too hard for me.
That chick in the picther should have worn more than a sports bra like a long sleeve you get all scarped up in there.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
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Dude, that's a dude in the Twilight Zone photo. Nick Taylor I think? Still, probably not the best climb to go shirtless on, but then he's way harder than you.
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SweetWilliam
Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
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Apr 13, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
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whateverr fatman did you climb it smarty? who is nick taylor i thought that was the guy in the rolling stones who died?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
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It's late Sweetie. Listen to your mommy and go to sleep and stop trolling on the internet.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Apr 14, 2015 - 08:49am PT
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The most notorious that I have been on is El Matador at Devils Tower. Most guidebooks say 10d/11a. What's with that? For me it is one of those that you tell yourself it is only 10d before you lead it and you brag it is 11a if you redpoint it.
Prolly a little tougher for the under 6ft crowd, but I am 5'9" and have stemmed it bottom to top on TR.
Although El Mat is tough it is the 10b's that I feel like are really sandbagged at DT.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Apr 14, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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hahha i've beeeeen to heaven
and there the resident bartender
spends more time weaving
eternity than she does
undoin my now.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Apr 14, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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The hardest 5.10 in the Valley I've ever been on is only 5.10b, Waverly Wafer.
That thing requires all my strength, no matter how I do it.
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Killer K
Boulder climber
Sacramento, CA
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Apr 14, 2015 - 08:55am PT
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I think .10d is definitely a sandbag grade. It's what you rate a route that you know is harder but you want your friends to think they're weak.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 14, 2015 - 09:00am PT
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Not so sure it's a sandbag grade, a few climbers are humble and figure naw I didn't FA an 5.11, I'll call it 10d.
And yes, I've climbed 10d's that seem harder than 11b's.
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Killer K
Boulder climber
Sacramento, CA
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Apr 14, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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^^^^^ good point!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 14, 2015 - 10:48am PT
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There's more truth in the thread's title than many think. When Sacherer and Beck freed the DNB, they rated it 5.9. Now, ST rates it 5.11a.
John
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 14, 2015 - 11:17am PT
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The "New old-school 5.9" is really more the rating of "5.9+", no?
Many 5.9s never are an issue, but over time, they get the coveted 5.9+ in the book.
and I've been on a few 10ds that climb like 5.9+... awkward, pumpy, stemmed out, sketchy rock.
So yeah, I can see it.
Now, for an example climb, hmmmm...
how about EBGBs?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 14, 2015 - 11:34am PT
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I was just reading in an old Mountain mag about the FFA of Crack A Go Go, they rated that rig .10+.
The good old days when climbs were easier.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 14, 2015 - 11:36am PT
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When 5.10 was the top grade, that's what the hardest climbs were rated. Just as 5.9 was used by those who figured they weren't the best in the world and who were they to apply the mighty 5.10 rating.
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thebravecowboy
climber
the Midcontinent Rift
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Apr 14, 2015 - 11:56am PT
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I would agree Munge. 5.9+ is the hardest grade in rock climbing.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
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The Cleft was 10d for me the first time, but that was before hand stacks were invented.
I can relate. I took solace, however, in the fact that it was A1 for Pratt himself in a couple of spots the first time he did it, too. It didn't take me long to realize that 5.9 for Pratt inevitably meant desperate for me.
John
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throwpie
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Apr 14, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
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Cowboy Larry took me to the Cleft for my first real climb. He claimed it was perfect for a beginner. He swam up it and I can't recall even getting my feet off of the ground.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Apr 14, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
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Warbler:
No way is The Wafer 10b... Fer sure harder than Cramming or first pitch of New D or EBC. Seems harder than Leanie Meanie too, for that matter. When I did The Nabisco Wall I thought The Wafer was the hardest pitch.
Waverly is tough as hell for me, kind of like Reeotch said, takes me to my limit just about every time. But even though its crux section is hard, imo it's not Leanie Meanie hard.
LM's crux is just meaner.
Little Wing and Mark of Art are two more tough .10d climbs. Five and Dime my nemesis, I don't even talk about it any more.
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dogtown
Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
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Apr 14, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
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T-zone 10C is a testie off-width with tubes for sure!
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Laine
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 14, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
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Lord Caffeine in Yose and Aja at Rainbow are two of the most sandbagged 10d's I done.
I done a few FAs I rated 10d for fear of rating them 11a so I guess I'm guilty (like Roof Bravado at Woodfords). For me it's one of those grade I might assign since mid 11's are at my limit and I think it's probably not an 11 since I fired it. So I guess I agree with the OP.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 14, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
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I thought Lord Caffeine was .11a. Still, that felt light compared to the start of Crammin'. That made the final stretch of New Dimension feel soft.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
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I should have put 5.9+ - good point.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 14, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
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Nice climbs all.....it is the CLIMB that is too hard for you NOT the rating. The climb is reality the rating attached to it is subjective, arbitrary and temporary.
People climb climbs they don't climb ratings.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
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Apr 14, 2015 - 07:48pm PT
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Perfect timing, since I got shut down on a 10d on Saturday! haha
Rawhide at the Grotto...my big hands suck for the lower section
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thebravecowboy
climber
the Midcontinent Rift
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Apr 14, 2015 - 11:43pm PT
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sweet share Mark F. thanks!
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Apr 15, 2015 - 07:22am PT
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Five and Dime my nemesis Good, I'm not the only one. Also Fingerlickin.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Apr 15, 2015 - 11:31am PT
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Anyone been "Raked Over the Coles"
Or to the "Rubicon"
Or taken the "Imaginary Voyage"
How 'bout that "High Plains Drifter"?
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crankster
Trad climber
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Apr 15, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
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Peter Principle at Snowshed, Donner. Got my number.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 15, 2015 - 01:06pm PT
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I have a list of 10d Yosemite’s routes I climbed in my order from easiest to hardest ( very subjective I guess, but it interesting to see what other climbers think).
It was a time when I was trying to nail all 10d's in the Valley , which have at least one star in the book
1.Serenity Crack p3. *
2.Lucky Streaks p3 *
3.Catchy **
4.Vanishing Point**
5. Maniana ***
6. Moratorium p1**
7.The Thief ***
8. Independence Center p3 -10d **
9. Lazy Bum*
10.Book of Revelations, p1 **
11. Hardy Pinnacle*
12. Five & Dime **
13. Waverly Wafer ( 10c, but this is my place in 10d list)***
14. Gold Dust**
15. Memo From Lloyd [TM] **
16. Axis aka Blotto at Arch**
17. 2nd pitch of Moratorium**
18.TwilightZone***
19. Dagger **
20. Ten Years After ***
21. Olga’s trick**
22. 5th 10d pitch on Rostrum ( layback roof)**
23. Lord Caffeine[TM] ***
24. 1096***
25. Cramming ***
26.Ying Yang***
27. Steppin' Out ***
28. Finger Lickin' ***
29.Little Wing** never red point
30.Good Book (p3)*** never red point
31. Mark of the Art*** never red point
32. Slack Center p1 * never red point
FinalExam*** ? - never climbed, but see it once - looks good, but long hike
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 15, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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Speaking of snowshed and 10d's, I'd always muff the crux on Airial.
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 15, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
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On the topic of 10d's that make you feel like you're not a 5.10 climber. Anyone ever been on Romantic Tension? It's on the headwall above the Cookie Sheet in Yosemite, just below Gait of Power and Tunnel Vision. It's a Jonny Woodward and Dimitri Barton route I believe. Looks like kind of a sandbag. I only made it about 20 ft up the unprotected face at the start, then unexpectedly broke off a hold, and decided to climb back down with my tail between my legs. The crux pitch looming above looks... uh... formidable. A drastically overhanging flake, and wide too. Probably really spectacular climbing.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Apr 15, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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Alexey that is a sweet list. For the ones I've done, this is how I'd reorder them (not on the list = I haven't tried it). A few of these where I've noted I seconded or haven't led:
1.Serenity Crack p3. *
2. Lucky Streaks p3 *
3. Catchy **
5. Maniana ***
8. Independence Center p3 -10d **
9. Lazy Bum*
32. Slack Center p1 (only tr'd it, never tried to lead, felt not too bad)
22. 5th 10d pitch on Rostrum ( layback roof)**
4. Vanishing Point**
14. Gold Dust**
15. Memo From Lloyd [TM] **
26. Ying Yang*** (0 for 2 rp tries, goes ok on TR, haven't done p2)
13. Waverly Wafer (0 for 3 on rp tries, goes ok on mini)***
12. Five & Dime ** (0 for ?? 6? on rp tries! ##$%#$)
29. Little Wing** (0 for 1)
31. Mark of the Art*** (0 for 1)
In summary, man, I thought Vanishing Point and Five & Dime were much harder than you did! If I were to put the Midget Chimney (Reed .10c) in there, which we did together, I'd put it just above Memo from Lloyd (though I only seconded it)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 15, 2015 - 02:54pm PT
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Five & Dime has a short crux.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 15, 2015 - 02:59pm PT
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I'm one more person who got my ego bruised by five and dime. Need to work on ring locks
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 15, 2015 - 03:09pm PT
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The feet are critical on Five & Dime....look for a slopey, smeary foothold out to the left.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Apr 15, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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Was it harder than Open Cockpit?
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Apr 15, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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Jim D.- for me its a problem of committing to gunning through the crux to the next good hand jam. I hesitate, and then... "screw it, take".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 15, 2015 - 03:45pm PT
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When in doubt, run it out.
Used to be kind of a mantra for me. Now when I consider those words a nervous shiver precedes the growing realization that I'm aging.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 15, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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For Five + Dime you do need to motor thru the crux. A slow, methodical approach will not work well for that climb, at least it didn't for me.
I was surprised to see Little Wing high on the difficulty list for 10ds. I remember it being kind of funky, but it didn't feel hard for the grade, at least not compared to some of the other .10ds on that list.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Apr 18, 2015 - 04:04pm PT
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Just tried my first lead of Mark of Art about 2 hours ago. 1 fall.
After having lead the 3rd pitch of Moratorium 11.b pretty easily yesterday, I can confirm that Mark of Art 10.d felt Harder! Super awesome pitch though!!
My list:
1. Serenity Crack
2. Lots of other random 10.d's
3. Corner on Good Book
4. Finger Lickin'
5. Lord Caffeine
6. Cramming
7. 3rd pitch Moratorium
8. Mark of Art
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 18, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
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JTDS, 5.9 up:
5.9
5.10a
5.9+
5.10b
5.11-
5.10c
5.11a
5.10d
5.11
5.10+
5.11b
Etc…
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 18, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
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The original system everywhere was a minus or a plus. I believe Dick Williams was the first to introduce the letter grade system. I still can't tell the difference between b and c. So I still use the old system when telling someone how hard a route is. But yeah 5.10+ can be a real bitch.
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Jon Clark
climber
philadelphia
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Apr 19, 2015 - 05:33am PT
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The original system everywhere was a minus or a plus. I believe Dick Williams was the first to introduce the letter grade system.
I thought Jim Bridwell introduced the letter grade subdivisions in his article "The Innocent, The Ignorant, and the Insecure" in 1973. I don't think Williams was using the letter grades in his early guide books.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2015 - 07:33am PT
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Most of the '+' routes were on the grrrr side
Ha! Love it.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 19, 2015 - 09:42am PT
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I never climbed that many 10d routes
Is Lazy Bum really a solid 10d? I came "this close" to free soloing that baby, but my nuts were too tiny.
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throwpie
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Apr 19, 2015 - 11:02am PT
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The Australian grading system always seemed the most logical... 1 is the easiest and it goes up from there.
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Mar'
Trad climber
Fanta Se
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Apr 27, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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Dangs!! No wonder I've never progressed into 11-land!! No more 10d for me!! ahahhaa!!
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Phil Bard
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, OR
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Apr 27, 2015 - 09:46am PT
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Dude, that's a dude in the Twilight Zone photo. Nick Taylor I think? Still, probably not the best climb to go shirtless on, but then he's way harder than you.
I always thought that was Yabo, BITD. I could be wrong, memory is failing.
Fist stacking... rugged.
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 27, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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I always thought that was Yabo, BITD. I could be wrong, memory is failing.
Fist stacking... rugged.
The photo is from George Meyers' "Yosemite Climber". The appended description is:
Twilight Zone is perhaps the most classic 5.10 off-width crack in Yosemite. When Chuck Pratt first led this Cookie route in 1965, without the comfort of protecting bongs, the climb gained an instant reputation as being hard and unprotectable. Tube chocks now protect the crux second pitch, seen here. However, on any off-width crack there is the danger that adding protection will make climbing around the chocks difficult. Most first-time visitors to Yosemite find the steep, awkward and strenuous climbing of such 'holdless' cracks unfamiliar and intimidating. Australian Nic Taylor is seen here flawlessly managing the 5.10c with a gentle care bred from his long-standing Valley residence.
IMO, leading Twilight Zone with anything less than a #6 Camalot is way gnar. Also note that grade of 5.10c!
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Steven Amter
climber
Washington, DC
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Apr 28, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
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Heading back east, I recall that the Gunks' Coexistence on the Mac Wall had a consensus rating of 5.10d, and in the late 70s and early '80s was generally regarded as entry-level "hardman" territory. It was a good sandbag, given how the way to safely protect it was to place multiple rather small wires and pieces in a strenuous section of climbing. Classic.
I understand that currently the crux protection system is good - a replaced pin and cams where you need them, but the first 30 feet is considered 5.8 R/X runout. I don't remember a scary bottom - was it protected by long-gone pins?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 28, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
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"Peter Principle at Snowshed, Donner. Got my number."
It is burly! I find a lot of climbs out there fairly burly.
Manana is the one with green camalots over a roof right? That one is hard as hell compared to most 10+ cracks in Yosemite. Barely got it somehow, last time I tried. Thought it is way harder than Catchy, Five and Dime, Twilight Zone, Finger Lickin, Waverly, 10d LB on the rostrum, the 10d pitch on Serenity etc. WOuld be interesting to check out CPoF "10d" pitch sometime. That sounds HARDD.
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 28, 2015 - 05:53pm PT
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Steven
The start of Co-Ex isn't that bad. If you can't handle the start your in way over your head when you get to the crux. I'd be curious to here Rgold's take on the FA and find out exactly how many pins where in place then. I consider Co-Ex a test piece and was really stoked to onsight it. However, there are some 10+'s in the Gunks that are harder. Stannards Roof and 10,000 Restless Virgins come to mind. Put any of those climbs out west and they'd be mid 5.11's.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 28, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 28, 2015 - 10:47pm PT
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Apr 29, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
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Everyone now wants to get a 'D' instead of an 'A'.
Ol' Warren would be proud that we are continuing the tradition of downward bound.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
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Nice slab shots, Tony!
Everyone now wants to get a 'D' instead of an 'A'.
Ol' Warren would be proud that we are continuing the tradition of downward bound.
That's a great comment, Branscomb.
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brett
climber
oregon
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Apr 29, 2015 - 07:53pm PT
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Gotta repost this classic from rec.climbing 20 years ago, which pegs 10d as harder than 11a but easier than 11-. I wonder where 10 squeeze falls on this scale? mid 12?
From: Brutus of Wyde (bbin...@ebmud.com)
Subject: Re: You wanted trip reports...
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Date: 1995/08/24
> ave...@cs.ubc.ca (Alistair Veitch) writes:
> raw...@aol.com (Rawdomg) writes:
> Bzzzt, wrong! I thought 5.11- meant 5.11a/b, ie, low end of the
> 5.11 range. Likewise 5.11+ means 5.11c/d.
Alistair:
I've seen 5.11 divided into 11 different grades of increasing difficulty, as follows:
.5.11a 5.10d 5.11- 5.11b 5.11 5.11c 5.9 squeeze 5.11+
.5.10 OW 5.12a 5.11d
Brutus
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Apr 29, 2015 - 08:11pm PT
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Is Lazy Bum really a solid 10d?
I would not think so . . . we used to tr it whenever we did the Jamcrack, '78-'79ish, EB's.
Probably 10b+/10c-.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Apr 29, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
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Really awesome photo wstmrnclmr . . . gotta get back and get on that steeper apron.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 30, 2015 - 11:00pm PT
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They call it a sport climb these days but we all know it was a freed aid climb. For some reason, one of my favorite little climbs. A very safe tune up........Classic 10d
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