Are you poor?

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zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 27, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
2015 - 150% of federal (monthly) poverty level income:

family of one = $1471.25
family of two = $1991.25

Do you think that extra quarter is worth accounting for?

Why is the increase from family of one to two only $520?


Why 150%? I can answer that one. It's the way the federal court site reports it.

Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Mar 27, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
fascinating
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Mar 27, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
Why is the increase from family of one to two only $520?
Because some major costs of living like rent and heating do not increase proportionately when you add another person to the apartment.

Why 150%?
Eligibility for welfare programs and health insurance subsidies are based on how close you are to the poverty line.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
^^^^

Yeah, what Moose said. Some material wealth is required in our modern society to maintain the basics of food and shelter. Maybe some day that will be a given.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2015 - 01:10pm PT

Because some major costs of living like rent and heating do not increase proportionately when you add another person to the apartment.

Yeah Clint, I kinda got that, but I'd like to see the calculations.

As to the 150%, I'm thinking that the court has determined that if you're poor then you're probably also dumb and don't know how to multiply by 1.5. Likewise income tax forms.

Anyway, even if you're poor and otherwise qualified in all other regards for $17,500 of student loan forgiveness (math teacher in low income area) you can't get it if you happened to have had a loan balance prior to October 1, 1998.

The lackeys working for the companies that were guaranteed high interest, no risk loans have gone so far as to deny forgiveness on occasion to folks whose loans were approved prior to the date yet the funds were not distributed until after the date.

Write to your (and mine) president Mr. Barack Obama and ask for an executive order removing this arbitrary and discriminatory ccutoff date. Certainly this is a better way to intervene in the free economy that pestering poor cattle ranchers in Nevada.



MisterE

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Mar 27, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
Are you poor?

Depends on how you define wealth.

%^)

Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Mar 27, 2015 - 07:14pm PT
Thankfully, no . . . just poorly positioned at the moment.

zBrown is my 2016 potus write-in candidate.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 27, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
The Potus didn't create the student loan crisis, it was just one of many shitstorms he inherited.

The bottom line is the financial industry in America has decided every citizen is simply a mannequin to hang debt on. They've taken the four principle forms of consumer debt - mortgages, credit cards, auto, and student loans - and moved them into the largely unregulated markets of asset-backed securities. In other words, in loading up our graduates with an ungodly amount of student debt they've basically decided to f*#k our future for a buck today. And it only took throwing trinkets and shiny baubles at our colleges and universities for them to jump into the slop whole hog.

At this point the Dept. of Education and all of our colleges and universities are just Wall St. branch offices. Unbelievable really...
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 27, 2015 - 07:44pm PT
Poor would be this............if a person didn't have the Eastside and Tuolumne to hang out in. So far I'm not poor. :)
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:06pm PT

Nope, I've got some of the greatest friends anyone could!
Rolfr

Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
I grew up poor, I had so many patches on my jeans the kids called me Apache, true story!

When we wanted Kentucky Fried Chicken, we had to lick other people's fingers! Maybe not so true.

CHOOSING poverty as a life style with bare essentials is a lot different then never having a choice. As much as some people on this forum talks about the simplicity of climbing, I really wonder how many climbers actually come from poverty?

When you come from poverty, the elusiveness of wealth and materialism effect you more than those middle class folk, who where fortunate enough to turn their backs on materialism.

Today , I am not poor in materialism and the richness of my friends, and am grateful for my humble upbringing , otherwise I would never have been as driven as I am today.

My favourite quote is from the actor Kirk Douglas "My children didn't have my advantages; I was born into abject poverty. "
WBraun

climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:20pm PT
Despite Americas rich materialism it's still one of the poorest countries on the planet.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
My daughter was describing someone a few months back and said, "He was so poor all he had was money."
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:33pm PT
Yes and no.
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:35pm PT
i don't know
but i made 9 grand today.

no shite.
I'm 9 thousand dollars less
poor than i was yesterday.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:38pm PT
Braun, Force and the rest of yo understand that money and wealth are not what makes a person rich. What makes us rich is a heart of love and forgiveness along with a spirit of peace, joy, compassion and keeping a heart out for the broken hearted. It's being a part of this planet and the grand universe we are gifted with, taking care of it and loving the gift we have living here.
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:49pm PT
Are you poor?

If your transmission goes out, can you pay for another one? Do you worry about things like this?

Have you ever chosen food over electricity?

What would happen if your spouse lost their job?

Do you get medi-cal/caid? Are you just above the cutoff so that you never go to the doctor?

Do your children qualify for free and reduced lunch?

These questions apply to this country- where you can be poor and not starve to death.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
Yes...but:

As my mother-in-law, who was poor her entire life, was fond of saying,

Rich or poor, it's good to have money.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
I'm totally grooving on the tone here. What's it all about, Alfie? Where's my dog Mouse. One of the richest dudes I know. And you Lynnie are one rich bitch. Ok, slap me.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:02pm PT
Of course we're "poor", how else are we going to ever have anything if we don't hide it all (tips etc) from the IRS etc in the first place.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
Just groovin' on the love here too. I had 3 homes and a fantastic husband (we did have our ups and downs....that's real life.) Dan died and went to the heavenlies and the economy tanked.

I've learned to live simply and my new motto is (copyright) Savor Don't Save. Along with my family I have the Sierra, a place of healing and miracles along with the incredible joy of discovering the beauty that lies therein.

And I trust my best friend jesus to be my pr man. He's why I'm at TPR. Never give up, joy is just around the corner. lynnie
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2015 - 09:37pm PT
The thread took some interesting turns. Started out as me bitching about another of the bigs (big govt, big tobacco, big pharma, big finance ... you know the drill).

Took some nice detours along the lines Lynne (one of several) pointed out.

I like the way these threads evolve into the unexpected.

I can't imagine trying to live on $11780 a year (the official poverty line) and feel pretty lucky that I am not poor in any of the senses we've seen here. By and large my suspicion is that there are very few poor folks inhabiting the ST.

"I can't complain, but sometimes I still do
Life's been good to me so far"

Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:13pm PT
Definitely nice groove...

there are people suffering, though, without enough to get by in great part because a lot of people have the mistaken idea that they can fill the hole they feel in their hearts with stuff and they keep thinking they can never have enough for themselves. If they realized they could make that hole fill up and heal by helping their brothers and sisters thrive they'd be a lot better off.

Here is a link about the film "Happy."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roko-belic/happy-documentary_b_1220111.html

Here's a link to the film itself.

http://www.thehappymovie.com

The greatest lesson I learned while making this film is that my pursuit of happiness is not about me. It's about our relationships and how we help each other. It's about us.
-Roko Belic, director of the film Happy

Always liked the idea of getting past zero, a concept a friend shared once. Doing stuff to meet your needs gets you to zero; doing stuff to meet other people's needs gets you past zero.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:13pm PT
Ya know, zBrown, life is an amazing and complex trip. Dan and I started out "dirtbag" poor when we married at 19 and 20. As life went on we had 4 kids and worked our asses off and created a business that Dan used to help people suffering with illness, death and dying to do the best for them and to help them in whatever way our pharmacy/medical equipment business could.

When you travel the planet you experience what is real and honest and true. All of our 4 kids worked at some point in their lives in our pharmacy, homecare business. I believe it made them richer and more in tune to the lives of others. They will never be poor ...... they made lives of the hurting and dying easier.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
Good stuff, Lynne.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
I'm rich in life. Experiences, friends, family, and love are all currencies I am flush in.

Paper pays the bills but it never adds up.

I wouldn't have it any other way.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
Always liked the idea of getting past zero, a concept a friend shared once. Doing stuff to meet your needs gets you to zero; doing stuff to meet other people's needs gets you past zero.

I like that always too, Mark. At least as many ways that I can wrap my pea-brain around. It's almost like a mathematical equation too. Sluurrp.

I'm looking forward to seeing you again at COR.

Mike, that's why we call you "Big". Did you think it was because you are tall?
JOEY.F

Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
had to roll quarters for tolls recently...one does what one must....
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:58pm PT
Mike, that's why we call you "Big". Did you think it was because you are tall?

Good one, Wayno! Look forward to seeing you at COR!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Mar 27, 2015 - 11:34pm PT
Always liked the idea of getting past zero, a concept a friend shared once. Doing stuff to meet your needs gets you to zero; doing stuff to meet other people's needs gets you past zero.

Yeah Mark. I keep relearning that lesson. I didn't realize we had met at cor, but i know exactly who you are now. Trippy, i've done that a couple of times now with forum members i met irl but never made the connection.

Some people who didn't know me very well had inquired why not tall... Guess next time i'll have a decent retort. ;)

Good to hear your enjoying your friday night bud
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Mar 28, 2015 - 02:31am PT
I was once dirt poor. $100 had to last me 3 months.

I lived in the back of a Volkswagon, collected nickel-deposit aluminum cans for a living and scarfed food to eat.

It was the best time of my life.

money and wealth are not what makes a person rich. What makes us rich is a heart of love and forgiveness along with a spirit of peace, joy, compassion and keeping a heart out for the broken hearted.

Agreed. Wealth just brings peace of mind.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 28, 2015 - 04:42am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]Yes , NO , Some More Some Less
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Mar 28, 2015 - 06:12am PT
This girl's got it figured out:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 28, 2015 - 07:51am PT
Poor is a state of mind.
Broke is a state of time.



I'm so broke that if it cost a nickle to sh#t, I'd have to throw up.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2015 - 08:33am PT
It's that patch over you're eye that I'm wondering about. Maybe just confusing a-patch-eye with apache, eh?

Who is this and is that Cosmic's bird?


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 28, 2015 - 08:57am PT
If you have a family to feed and the Gov. is taking away your food stamps and other services that you rely on, having a positive attitude will not go very far.
Pile on debt, health care problems, and what you got is people living in fear for their very survival.

The just pull yourself up by your bootstraps idea is a pretty simplistic delusion, it doesn't work for being poor/broke or depression or most anything else.

As far a student loans go, the banksters can borrow money at practically zero % interest, but students pay big interest rates and basically victims of predatory lending.

College should be Free for anyone willing to stay in school.
The Republicans have rigged the system to keep us poor and subservient. They all know a strong middle class gives the people more time to fight the rigged system, fight for more social services, well paying jobs and the Repubs lose.

The fact that there are people hungry and without shelter or jobs signals one thing; we have failed as a society, and it has been the Conservatives have done this to our country.

Big money has won over basic moral concerns, there are people dying because of this neglect, it's the opposite of Christ's teaching, meaning one thing, the Republicans/conservatives have corrupted Christianity so they can use it to control Christians to vote for anti-Christian values.
Christ was the prototypical Liberal, fairness, love and support for those disenfranchised, sick, poor or whatever. A Christian Nation would not have sick homeless on the streets Begging. A Christian Nation would provide for them
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 28, 2015 - 09:00am PT
I live in poverty but I am a wealthy man!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 28, 2015 - 09:21am PT
Get a clue cragman, wake up and see what's going on.

Someone is to blame, right?
Why do so many other Countries take care of their needy and we can't?

Because they haven't sold out to big Money interests, and the Republicans are beholden to big money interests, they happily take their money and make sure they get what they want, which is poor working class with little hope for a better future.

Prove me wrong genius, you can't.

I do work for change, I expose the truth of what's going on.

Your Fox News bubble is the problem, it has produced a population of duped Americans that are destroying this country from the inside out with division, lies and propaganda. How do they do it, they get suckers to vote for Republicans that then screw us with all the problems we now have.

There are only 2 types of Republican voters.
Millionaires and suckers.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 28, 2015 - 09:23am PT
And you won't see real poor people in developing countries waxing philosophically about the
nobility of poverty. My Indian friend, who grew up in a dirt-floor house and didn't use a
telephone until he was a teen, hears that talk and says, "Stupid Americans." But then he went
on to get a real education, instead of majoring in gender studies or art history, and is now
making an artificial eye that may soon get FDA approval. YMMV
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 28, 2015 - 09:41am PT
America is the most prosperous Country in the world, we have the resources, just not the will.

Only first world countries have eliminated poverty, America has the worst poverty of any first world country..


Living in the Valley (or travelling around while young) as a dirtbag is not poverty, it is a choice, and you know you can make it by hook or by crook, and if you can't, you can always go back and live with your parents.

It is the opposite of fearing for the survival of you and your family
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 28, 2015 - 09:51am PT
I don't know any of my neighbors, and even I if I did, they wouldn't ask for help, and I sure wouldn't ask for help.

They all want help from someplace that offers help, and that would be the GOVERNMENT, that is the Gov.s job, provide for people in distress that have no where else to go.

Say you lost your job because of sickness or an accident, then what?
Your family is tapped out, and why should they have to take care of you? They aren't running a humanity help service program.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 28, 2015 - 09:57am PT
"I don't know any of my neighbors, and even I if I did, they wouldn't ask for help, and I sure wouldn't ask for help."

That's a big part of the problem...loss of connection from our local communities.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Mar 28, 2015 - 10:29am PT
Jesus, I'm incredibly rich, I have this beautiful precious child to light up my life every day! Her birth mother doesn't have money or her child. Maybe they're related.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Mar 28, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
Big money has won over basic moral concerns, there are people dying because of this neglect, it's the opposite of Christ's teaching, meaning one thing, the bankers have corrupted Christianity so they can use it to control Christians to vote for anti-Christian values.

Fixed that for you Craig. Question is, what are you gonna do about it. Bitchin here ain't helping....
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 28, 2015 - 12:45pm PT
That's a fine ideal, but it obviously doesn't work. Insular, self-oriented views are sadly more of the norm in this society, and there just isn't going to be mass-infusion of values & concern for others that provides an increase in help to those who genuinely need it. That's not a realistic strategy (all by itself) to help those who need help.

And what's the alternative, anyway? Stop all social services, and allow society to stratify even further, with poverty, disease, mental illness, and degradation left to their own devices?

I'm pretty damn sure part of the vision of the Founding Fathers was a country with compassion for each citizen. (Theoretically, that compassion is supposed to part of Christianity, with varying results.) Striking the balance between individual & government efforts to help those who need it is a reasonable goal.
Floorabove

climber
The Gunks y'all
Mar 28, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
Hey Craig-Fry,

“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government
take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.”
Henry Ford
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Mar 28, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
Gonna forego Medicare and Social Security Cragman?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 28, 2015 - 02:03pm PT

Craig...I think the biggest issue here in the U.S. is apathy.

If more average Joe's would simply take responsibility to help their neighbor, we could solve these issues.

Yes! This means don't vote for republican robber barons whose goal is to line their own pocket at the expense of programs that actually help people. I'm thinking specifically obamacare. (But there are others...) Supporting that Is one of the single best things you can do for others!


Waiting on the government is like herding cats...or trying to nail Jello to the wall

Perhaps, but waiting on the genorsity of "haves" insures that some people will be ignored!


Heal the world...make it a better place
For you and for me and the entire human race
There are people dying, if you care enough for the living
Make a better place for you and for me

Michael Jackson

Crazy tortured Michael had his moments!

Helping others need not involve the government
WRONG
I wish that were true. Put a "should" in there and the statement is accurate. Again, depending on the largese of the Nobles Oblige, doesn't work, because they play favorites,.
" gay, atheist who has had an abortions? No health care for you!"
-just one possible example, of many...

The only possible way to insure care for is to get the government involve, painful as that is. No other body has the resources, responsibility, or motivation to consider Everybody!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 28, 2015 - 04:07pm PT
Far too many of our markers for defining rich and poor in society are set for us by Television and other mediums.

I grew up in a time when I FIGURED OUT that I'd be happy with one hundred a week--I was about eight or nine when that epiphany hit me.

I've never had much, never been ambitious in the way a lot of upwardly-mobile folks are, and never been particularly impressed by dress, cars, or homes.

Or the size of a record collection.

Or the numbers of trophies on the mantle.

I did my taxes this year instead of letting them slide, because I hope to qualify for food stamps and wished to see how I fared in that regard.

Turns out I'm WELL UNDER the eleventhousandsomeodd line.

I'm set. Now I need to bike over to the county's offices and request the process begin. They'll tell me to get a valid ID for about thirty bucks. That will be hoop one. I may just wait and not waste their time and mine and go apply for a duplicate DL.

Yes, I've played the game before. I took myself off food stamps when my dad, named Francis, called Boomer, died and a lot of money came to me all of a sudden.

St. Francis of A-seetzee, be with me, as your patronage is greatly desired. It's not that fun being poor. And it's not that fun having to go to the library to get online.

There's barely time to look at Facebook, let alone discuss the world's poor.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 28, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
Mouse, I guess unless you're a trustifarian that knows how to manage their money it's either work your butt off and be comfortable or work little, have less and endure the inconveniences that go along with that.....but also have as your gift the blessing of time to spend doing what you love and having much more time for family and friends.

TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
Mar 29, 2015 - 10:24am PT
"I've been rich and I’ve been poor -- and believe me, rich is better."

Sophie Tucker
US (Russian-born) vaudeville singer (1884 - 1966)

I wouldn't argue with an authority like Sophie.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Mar 29, 2015 - 10:36am PT
There have been a lot of great fundraisers for various folks in need here on the Topo. And it's great as a community that we can do that.

But it's a shame as a nation that we have to do that. Major medical expenses shouldn't be the cause of people going broke.

As for student loans, they have become not much more than an channel of money to bankers and college administrators. Cost have risen far higher than the rate of inflation because of the easy money to fund those costs. And the quality of education hasn't kept in step. Sure some colleges have nicer dorms and gyms. But that's pretty much about it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2015 - 10:49am PT
Money and the pursuit of it. It's good to step back and re-examine it's role in your life. (either Bob Dylan or Lynne said that. I'll let you be in my dream ... you know the drill).

It's important to live the dog's life now and again.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 29, 2015 - 11:04am PT
To the OP, I'm financially very poor. No heat in my house for the last three weeks and it's still winter here. We keep the faucets dripping at night in hopes that the pipes don't freeze. Only happened twice this year, so it could be worse.

In every other respect, I'm not a poor man whatsoever.

My life is amazingly good.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 29, 2015 - 11:50am PT
Silly Moose coulda stayed in Poland and been happy with cheap slivovitz.
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
Mar 29, 2015 - 12:10pm PT
Cross post to thread advocating for "living the dog's life."

"My Highest Ambiiton: What's Yours?"

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2600391/My-highest-ambition-whats-yours


Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 29, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
zBrown, you make a good point and I guess each person has to find their own peace with their answer. On my own for the past 7+ years I've had to figure out what's important to lynnie.

Spending all my time making money is not my answer, been there done that.

But, finding the formula to keep my life balanced has been challenging. One must pay their bills, so I deleted much in my life so I only have a few essential bills. Then there's the living part and figuring out how to bring in extra cash for gas money, a healthy diet etc.

People love to give advice and I ask for it. Even if I don't agree with them, their ideas and thoughts sometime take me down roads of creativity I never may have explored.

Gosh, that would be a good thread. How to Live on Little.

Anyway, thanks for your Thread, zBrown, I'm enjoying it! Cheers, lynnie

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Mar 29, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
I guess I know what Brandon knows. Poor people have it good in these times.

Look at our health care process, we are so dumb. Money can't buy you love, now can it?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2015 - 01:23pm PT
Thanks Lynne.

Never seen a thread with so little music. Excuse me while I step into the twilight zone.

Where do you go, once you've gone too far?

Dodge them bullets, they hurt when they hit the bone.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Mar 29, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
Most days I am flabbergasted at how much I am paid. I grew up with stretches of being poor (single mom on welfare, etc), many stretches of not being much above poor. What I do is not any great service to the world, but it is all I really know how to do that gets me paid.

I am grateful for the perspective I have from the lean times growing up, and have worked my butt off to stay not-poor ever since going out on my own. A lot of the tradeoffs are not good ones. I am stuck in a cubicle most days, and most of my meager vacation gets used up on family obligations, so I get out very little and I ma in miserable physical shape these days.

My kid will likely never know what poor feels like, and I have very mixed feelings on that. I would really prefer he knows what poor is like, how much of a trap it can be, how much of modern life is full of unnecessary trivialities that will erode your bank account and your brain by a thousand cuts. On the other hand I feel the constant discomfort of living my life with people who I don't click with, with whom I will never really fit in with, basically folks who are all a bit 2 dimensional. I miss the groveler lifestyle, and wish there was some decent middle ground between that gave more time outside of suburbia.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 29, 2015 - 04:53pm PT
hey there say, all...


for me, i am just glad to have a roof over my head, now...

i am very thankful that my folks taught us to live very humble, as, it sure prepares one for when live is 'not always cream of the crop' so to speak... it keeps you content and happy...


basic skills to stay well, and have food, on very limited incomes, etc, are the treasure, that one holds dear... when managed right, you can even buy things to USE to be creative, or garden, or give to others...

was always taught to pay bills first, and, learned that rice, beans, and or a chicken, makes food last for a month, :) add some flour and a vegetable, when you can, :)
and fruit, if you plan even better, :))

skirting around the injury or health issues, etc... one must always hope and pray for--one never knows those trail, until one 'hits' them...

as to the past:
being thankful for the past, when i had kids, that we got by, safetly, and many prayers kept us afloat then...


as to now:
will keep on going, a day at a time, and with those prayers, that lynne mentions, will keep hope, for things to turn out as so far, they are:

i am here... :)
and have a bit a lee-way, to function, and share a smile with others, as well...


looking poor--but rich in thankfulness...


edit:
brandon- say, these last few years, i have been able to have heat, and whewww, it is just in time... our coldest winters were these last two...
i used to see my breath in the house... and never turned the heat on, until late january... man oh man...
is easier to do with 'being under the line' in south texas, for sure, but in any winter-climate, you just stay in the ol' sleepingbag, :O and hide, when you are home, :O
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 29, 2015 - 04:57pm PT
hey there say, zbrown...

here is some music for you...

when the times are hard, the heavens can provide:

somehow, someway, i have been eternally greatfull for the
possums that have come into the headlights of my days:

it makes you so grateful, that all you can do, is want to pass
that possum, on... :)

i wish you 'many possums' to all that are in hard times, specially
if you have kids... oh my...

[Click to View YouTube Video]


edit:
this song came on the radio, on night a few years back, after a hard time... made me so happy, i laughed for joy...


and--i am a dear critter lover, and cry over dead animals, etc, but--i knew the 'just of it' was for 'needed help' when the chips are done,
and hopes are wavering, :)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 29, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
Oh Neebee, that was awesome! Thanks for the share. I never ran over any possums, but when we were first married I recycled bottles and newspapers as well as working full time so Dan could go to college and we could have a 1/2 lb.of hamburger once a week.

Those were magnificent days...................I treasure the memories. :)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 29, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
hey there say, lynne... awwww... hugs to you, this eve!


it is good to know that feel that another fellow-traveler in life, shares common ground with...


>:D<



edit for moof:

as to your quote:

On the other hand I feel the constant discomfort of living my life with people who I don't click with, with whom I will never really fit in with, basically folks who are all a bit 2 dimensional. I miss the groveler lifestyle, and wish there was some decent middle ground between that gave more time outside of suburbia.

very well, and with deep meaning, said...
may you have a good common ground, at the best time, someday...
and in good ways... :)
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Mar 29, 2015 - 07:03pm PT
Thanks Moof, for that glimpse through your eyes.
Rolfr

Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
Mar 29, 2015 - 09:47pm PT
“Are You Poor? ”. A pretty ambiguous question. I doubt any of us in the climbing community lack basic human needs, food, safe drinking water, sanitation, clothing, shelter, education, access to information and health care.

Money and the pursuit of it or turning your back on it doesn’t make you morally poorer or richer, it’s a choice. Some people find a balance others don’t.

This thread is starting to sound like my dad “ If everyone had just one brown shirt we would all be happy”, my response was , but I like blue and would like to have two shirts dad. Shut up son you don’t know what your talking about.”

Poverty isn’t a clearer path to contentment and happiness , I can find both richer or poorer.
feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
Mar 29, 2015 - 10:28pm PT
I am incredibly wealthy. And I think how we view our life in terms of contentment depends on what we value in our life.

I am a simple potter who heats her modest home with wood, drives a 36-year old car in warm weather, and sometimes does a bit of archaeology or writing. I am comfortable, and live the life I choose to live, surrounded by wildlife and beauty.

My meat is mostly elk, moose, fish as fresh-caught trout (the rainbows are running right now!) or Copper River salmon (I have a connection). I have a garden, loved by rabbits and birds. The deer stand outside the fence and salivate. Poor deer.

I often use one of the wood stoves to make profoundly delicious stocks and soups from ancient recipes, handed down. I love the fragrance of simmering stock in the winter. I have no television or cell phone. I do have good ISP.

I am wealthy in time. Part of my childhood, we were maybe worse than rez poor. But yes, Lynne, those days of recycling, having a pound of hamburger for the week, and somehow managing to keep everyone fed and healthy, were in so many ways some of the most delightful days. Far, far better than the wealth of stuff is the wealth of love. And laughter.

I am incredibly wealthy.

feralfae

Great thread, ZBrown. Thank you.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 29, 2015 - 11:57pm PT
hey there, say, feralfae... a wonderful share, thank you, for sharing your humble trail, the best riches in life, are--life, :)
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Mar 30, 2015 - 06:42am PT
Poverty isn’t a clearer path to contentment and happiness , I can find both richer or poorer.

Proving that some people will find the good in life, and others something to bitch about.

I personally can do both quite well:)
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Mar 30, 2015 - 06:47am PT
hey there, say, feralfae... a wonderful share, thank you, for sharing your humble trail, the best riches in life, are--life, :)

Yes^^^
feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
Mar 30, 2015 - 08:58am PT
Thank you for your kind remarks. . . but it is perspective, and that is why one cannot trust demographics to tell us much of anything, and why it is more important to pay attention to ourselves and our neighbors as humans sharing this planet than to be caught up in the blatant materialism of parts of society.

I feel the need to clarify a few things. As you read this, watch how your perspective shifts, based on being given a different point of view. . .

My 36 year old car is my restored MBG, which Dad got for me as a congratulatory gift when I got my fellowship for graduate studies at U of Chicago. I heat with wood because we had a beetle kill and Doug and I created small mountains of firewood from the dead trees in our forest, and I am still using up that firewood. I also have electric heat. But I like using the wood to heat the house, and will purchase more when I need it. It is also a solar house, so many days the sun warms it pretty well without additional energy inputs. I threw my cell phone in the Kootenai River years ago because it intruded more than I wished into my peace and enjoyment of life.

And while I grew up seriously poor, we read the classics aloud while we weeded the garden, and learned poetry (I can recite the most obscure stuff from the British metaphysical and romantic poets!) while we marched, single file, through the forests of the home place, learning about the natural world from our elders. We read Jefferson's letters, Lysander Spooner, and Byron, Keats, and Shakespeare as we worked, taking turns critiquing each other's elocution skills. :) My uncles lectured us on ethics. Honor was held to be of the highest value between people. Trustworthiness was essential. Content of character was considered to be the paramount factor in choosing friends or mates. Now I am an elder, slowly learning the patience to pass along a few bits of knowledge to others.

I can vacation in Paris or London or Alexandria, and my high-fired, translucent porcelain art pieces finance my travels. I am well paid for burnt mud. :) I climb because I love the view from high places. I hope when my body has finished healing that I will be climbing again, or at least trudging along high trails and occasionally scrambling up a slope. Free recreation, in most places.

I made choices to experience life more than collect stuff but I have inherited a lot of "stuff" and have my walls filled with wonderful art. Too much art; a lot of it by family members. If there is a ding in a wall, I can always move a painting or photograph. :)

This post comes from a different perspective, although everything in the first post was factual. It is largely how we see things. Living in a tent and preparing meals over a campfire can be a vast richness if we are content. (been there, done that) Living in a high-rise in Manhattan can be misery if it is not our choice. (ditto) Yes, life intrudes with unexpected events. It was most certainly not my choice for Doug to leave. We have a choice of how we meet challenges such as poverty and events, illness and loss, even if we cannot see those choices today.

Thank you for your kind remarks, but the last thing anyone would call me is humble. I have come to accept that I am a natural leader, and often rise to leadership in groups just because I don't mind the risks of edge living. And a part of my simplicity in life is that I follow Quaker traditions, but not as well as I might do.

So, while I do have a 36-year old car, and do heat with wood, and prefer organic game and fish to corporate food, it is by choice that I live in what might be apparent poverty, but is really more about simplicity and having time to do the things I love, which lets my energy flow freely into life.

I am, indeed, incredibly wealthy.

Now, as Doug would write, stop reading this nattering and go do something beautiful and awesome.

feralfae
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 30, 2015 - 08:58am PT
Like Feed A mouse ! [Click to View YouTube Video]
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2015 - 10:04am PT
Now, as Doug would write, stop reading this nattering and go do something beautiful and awesome.
Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Mar 30, 2015 - 11:53am PT
Don't have money for the rent this month, but I wouldn't call myself poor.
John M

climber
Mar 30, 2015 - 12:00pm PT


comparing what people in a third world country live on to what americans live on should include what things cost.

People in the country Dean mentioned live on 800 dollars a year.

But what does rent cost? What does food cost? What does healthcare cost?

And then there is the notion that someone can choose to live like a dirtbag and its not so bad, so poverty must not by that bad. The thing is that choice is what makes it not so bad. Knowing that one is healthy enough, or intelligent enough, to go get a decent paying job, and that those jobs exist and that one knows how to go get them is a huge thing. Something that I think that most on this forum don't seem to understand.

The person who grows up in poverty in a depressed area where there are no jobs, who has parents who don't know any better, doesn't have the same knowledge base and the same training and the same access as most middle class people do.

I'm not saying that it is impossible to rise up out of poverty. My father and his brothers certainly did. What I am trying to say is that poverty is a much more complex issue then just.. pull yourself up by your bootstraps.. or.. if we all just chipped in.. then everything would be better.

Well certainly things would be better.. But would that be enough? I doubt it. As getting "everyone" to chip in is the problem. Which is why the government can be a useful tool for that kind of effort. But even the government is made up of people, and often it is broken, … and if it can't work, then why would anyone think that just depending on everyone giving would work.

So it definitely a complex issue.

Myself. I live well below the poverty line. sometimes its terrible. I have forgone health care many times. I hate begging, so have never asked for help. I am thankfully blessed to have parents that can help, but even that help can be difficult at times.

So why do I live below the poverty line? It is because of health problems.

People say that in this country there is plenty of help. Let me please explain to you that though there are a lot of programs, navigating them when you are ill is very very difficult. I can't tell you how many times I have been turned down for help because I screwed up a form.

I survived because I am wealthy in friends like Karl Baba. And because my parents are decent folks with money, though they have their complications. For years they didn't understand why depression or anxiety could stop a person from taking care of themselves. Plus it was very difficult for me to ask for help. I was raised to help myself. And for years I did. I worked myself until I collapsed and my health was so poor that I nearly died multiple times. Its taken me years to get some sort of balance back.

Currently I am homeless. I am using library internet, which is nice, but can be limiting when one needs to spend hours navigating a government website, and you are only allowed 30 minutes of time on the computer.

Sometimes I despair at what people understand or believe about poverty. If you have your health, and you are intelligent, then you have gifts beyond anything you could imagine. And those gifts seem to make it difficult for people to understand not having them.

I am an intelligent person who because of depression and other physical health problems, has mostly worked physical labor jobs. These jobs took a serious toll on my body. One example is having a backhoe bucket dropped on my head because the operator didn't like me. I wrecked my neck and I have chronic pain now. Which I have had for 30+ years.

Its just not as easy as " pull yourself up by your" or " get government help" or " everyone should just give".

It just isn't..

but wouldn't it be nice.



Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2015 - 01:00pm PT
actually I'm quite wealthy...and for just $6.66 I can tell you how you can become wealthy too. But hurry!!!!111666 this is a limited time offer
Barbarian

climber
Mar 30, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
I grew up with a less than optimal income, but have never been poor.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
^Are foodstamps accepted here?

Just a note on how the other half (haha) lives. As far as I can tell, there is no federally defined rich level of income.



couchmaster

climber
Mar 30, 2015 - 03:08pm PT


I am the opposite of poor
Texplorer

Trad climber
Sacramento
Mar 30, 2015 - 03:37pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2015 - 04:03pm PT
Just a note on how the other half (haha) lives. As far as I can tell, there is no federally defined rich level of income. ... continued...

I think that in the void left by the govt., we can probably come up with a least a useful working definition.

So, e.g.

You have attained rich status when:

You are able to take full advantage of the myriad loopty loopholes that have been built into the tax code over the years

or

You pay a lower tax percentage rate than your secretary (how many out there have a secretary by the way?)
Rolfr

Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:29pm PT
John M "I have forgone HEALTH CARE many times. I hate begging, so have never asked for help."

As a Canadian that statement is almost incomprehensible, Health Care is a right not a benefit. I have never understood how the richest country in the world can have such an abysmal health care program, and why even those that would benefit the most from a universal health care system, rally against it?

The Canadian system isn't perfect, but if we have health issues , it cost us ZIP, we even got to keep our house and savings.

And no we don't pay higher taxes for universal health care.

"In the U.S., the lowest tax bracket is 15% at $8,500 and to 25% at $34,501. The bottom Canadian bracket stays at 15% until $41,544. This is the bulk of the reason that lower-income Canadians are often better off than Americans in an identical tax situation. The richest Americans at 35% whereas the top federal tax rate in Canada is 29%. Rich Americans, however, have access to many tax deductions that Canada's Alternative Minimum Tax does not allow.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 30, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
hey there say, feralfae.... awwww.... :)

i meant humble, as to attitude, ... :)

it is a lovely way to live... :)

perspective, too, as to the inner man, even though you do have the other sweet treasures, i can see the inner you... :)

you have your many treasure of life's trail, in their proper places and that comes from all that you have been taught, along the way, and things that you knew were good to learn, from your elders...


we all can learn, from that too, and pass that on...
making life richer for others, then...


thanks for the added adornments, that make nice sparkles,
kind of like the fun-things that we gardeners love to add to our gardens, when really the lovely garden is all we need... :)

the bits of sparkles make nice memories, of our life's gleanings...
Flip Flop

climber
salad bowl, california
Mar 31, 2015 - 12:35am PT
Impoverished. Why do you ask?
feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
Mar 31, 2015 - 08:20am PT
Rolfr
The Canadian system isn't perfect, but if we have health issues , it cost us ZIP, we even got to keep our house and savings.
And no we don't pay higher taxes for universal health care.


Right! And our taxes would be half what they are if the government was not spending more than half of every tax dollar on warfare all over the Earth! The price of even one tank or humvee would cover health care for a lot of people.

Locker, you are spot on. The war-mongering media ignore the incredible travesty of war and its aftermath. Our local VA is not able to help all of the returned or returning veterans with terrible cases of PTSD, not to mention physical wounds. But the psychic ones seem to be the worst. And I used to think wrath was the worst evil, but I now think it is greed.

Neebs, yes, you are right, it is an attitude. (well, you know me better, so you know . . . ) Doug and I lived simply but comfortably, and were so happy we could do so in peace. And there is little that I have accomplished along the way on my journey that was not accomplished with great help from angels who showed up along the way just when I needed them. :) As a little girl, a well-respected and successful watercolor artist saw my drawings and she helped me for years to develop my own art. Later, the nuns at college were incredibly supportive and loving, and gave me unlimited encouragement. Northwestern was a haven where I truly blossomed while lecturing there and then running the research center, although I was not doing art there, but other stuff. And since I have been here in Montana, I have had wonderful artists from all over the world help me to develop my talent for my present body of work.

I think it is so very important that as politicians try to separate us and cause us to fear and hate each other, we humans look around and help our neighbors, get to know them, be a good neighbor, and reach out when they need help, or we need help. It is hard to know how to help someone far away (but Oxfam and AFSC come to mind) when we cannot personally discover their needs, but it is fairly easy to help those close to home. It is how we build community. And closer, it is how we build tribe.

So, that's the rest of the story. :) Now, neebee, I need to write a private note to you. Watch for an email. :)
feralfae
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 31, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
MooseRemember

to look for the elephant in the room.

He's the poorest guy.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 31, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
Same as it ever was.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 31, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
hey there say, the warbler...

ahhh, 'tis good, though, 'the balancing act'...

keeps our minds and heart, agile, toward the ' success of the balance' ...

:)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 31, 2015 - 02:26pm PT
hey there say, feralfae... will wait for the email... say, i have a card for you, soon, too, :)


ahhhhh, and:

MOUSE is in the HOUSE...

:)

SNUCK in through the ol' hole in the library wall...
happy good day mouse... though i know you have 'snuck out' by now, and gone for mouse-coffee, perhaps... :)

edit:
coffee made FOR mouse, not coffee made of mouse...
must CLARIFY here at the taco... one never knows how words my be seen,
juggled, and digested, ;) and spread out and about... :)
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2015 - 02:29pm PT
hey there say, take two - The Warbler - it's time to take up (or return to) surfing.

On second thought, being a surfer isn't as safe as it once was, so no mouse, not always the same as it ever was.

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Mar 31, 2015 - 03:08pm PT
I have been poor, as in squatting in an abandoned house living on my own when I was 16 poor. I put myself through school , then my wife. Now, we are closing in on making an unreal amount of money annually together since I got promoted last week.

I am currently in Panama.

Other than traveling and brewing beer, my wife and I both pretend we are poor. We have made some hard choices and chose to suffer short term for long term gain. Regardless, at most turns we were near dire straits. Even in my current position, if I lost my job and my wife lost her job it would be tough to retire without some notice.

This country is really messed up and is ever stacking the odds further and further against what I accomplished. If you vote Republican, you are part of the problem, PERIOD!! Don't kid yourself into anything else.

I also agree we need to cut the country welfare aka foreign aid. For the next few decades, it should be America first. The amount of money our country sends abroad is shameful considering how bad it is getting right here at home.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 31, 2015 - 03:41pm PT
Пролетарии всех стран, соединяйтесь! (Proletarier aller Länder vereinigt Euch!)

You know you want to! [YMMV]
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2015 - 09:54am PT
Ways and Means Committee Ranking Member Sander Levin (D-MI) has twice authored legislation – which he will reintroduce again this year – to tax carried interest compensation at the same ordinary income tax rates paid by other Americans. Certain investment managers – including private equity managers – now benefit from a loophole that allows them to pay a reduced 15 percent tax rate on income received as compensation, rather than ordinary income tax rates up to 35 percent that all other Americans pay. Rep. Levin first introduced the measure in 2007 and it has passed the U.S. House four times as part of broader measures since then. It has yet to pass the Senate.

Probably safe to conclude Romney is rich

Gov. Mitt Romney disclosed that he received $13 million in “carried interest” in 2010 and 2011, compensation that was taxed at the 15 percent capital gains rate ...

Not singling out Romney, but he did after all want to be President.

Romney released his 2010 tax return in January of this year, a document that first informed voters about the existence of his Swiss bank account and financial activities in Bermuda and the Cayman Islands. But people who own foreign bank accounts are required to file a separate document with the IRS that provides additional details on such overseas bank holdings, and Romney has not released that form to the public.

FBAR's in the news.

http://intltax.typepad.com/intltax_blog/fbar-1/
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Apr 1, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
A co-worker once told me that he was "so poor that he had to get up every morning before going to bed". That was just about 31 years ago to the day and I've yet to figure out how poor that is.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 1, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
Here's the deal about how medieval men could tell the difference between the rich and the poor sections of town.

The rich paid some guys to haul off the waste from their privvies.

The poor just let it wash away when it rained, which made the stench even worse.

It's partly why Paris had such a good sewer system, relative to most towns.

Let's not forget London in the early nineteenth century, too, when its population grew so fast that their sewer system was clogged 24/7 until Parliament got sick of the reek of the Thames.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Bazalgette

[Click to View YouTube Video]
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 2, 2015 - 08:38am PT
http://www.npr.org/2015/03/12/392332431/dirty-old-london-a-history-of-the-victorians-infamous-filth

While you are visiting the privvy this morning, or having your breakfast, here is some absorbing reading matter which you can look at on your electronic gadgets.

Bon apetit.

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 2, 2015 - 08:50am PT
"He's got to be king, he's the only one without sh#t on his face."

And what Rielly said was
"Proletariat of all countries, unite!
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
Apr 2, 2015 - 09:02am PT
Let's not forget Beck's Axiom.

"At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class."

For example, Warbler can rejoin the leisure class (and be rich) any day he wants (like once daughter no longer needs a home with Dad).

Sell the San Diego "mansion", slide down the social spectrum, live off the income from his equity, and live the life of leisure. Sounds rich to me.

P.S. Above description sounds like what I've done. Been retired since 2004 after selling off the Durango llama ranch property and living off the income from principal. Principal hasn't gone down, so no need to work. So now all I do is climb, ski, do yoga, meditate, play golf, travel, play ukelele and enjoy life with my lady. I could look around and decide I was "poor" because so many pubas and plutocrats have million (hey billions) more than me. I choose otherwise.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2015 - 09:08am PT
TWP - Yeah, but what about the llamas?


Just outa curiosity how much does a llama ranch go for? Was it one of those Alpaca wool schemes that are so popular in Southwest Colorado? I'm still waiting for ostrich ranching to take off.

(http://www.ostrichs.net/AboutOst1.html )

A bit of friendly advice, you may want to move "the lady" portion of it to the top of your list (and as they say on the ol' ST (though I can't remember where I saw it), make sure she comes first).



Finally, just where and how often did Beck lie?

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 2, 2015 - 09:20am PT
Rich doin's at COR. Poor doin's just stayed home.Senor Llama, LTWP to the peons.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 2, 2015 - 09:24am PT
Helping others need not involve the government

Sure, but the government is the one that prints the money. We could go back to anarchy but I doubt that would help the poor. The government is comprised of with and for our neighbors. And you know what our neighbors are like!

What would the poor Christians in Indiana do without their government to protect them? Sure we'd be just all peachy altruism without the government stifling us.
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
Apr 2, 2015 - 10:28am PT
zBrown:

I got into llamas thinking every llama owner had the same premise as I - the reason to have a llama is to have a pack animal. I never deviated from this rational. The speculative side of llama "investing" (or ostrich or alpaca) investing wasn't why I owned the animals. I still have a pack string - and the llamas as investment bubble burst about 20 years ago. As to how much a llama ranch is worth?; less than Warbler's pad, in my case.

Thanks Mouse for the memories. Judi, Honey and I are a happy family. See U Soon at City of Rocks!

Funny thing about that picture. The very next day I woke seeing a billion gnats flying in the sky. Turned out the gnats were blood cells floating inside my eye ball from a torn retina. That mass of tissue still floats around inside my eye and my vision is a blurry mess. Nonetheless, "this dude abides" and I may be able to restore my vision with one more eye surgery (three down; one to go).
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2015 - 11:53am PT
Thanks TWP. I came close to making an offer on an[alpaca]ranch? outside of Ridgway, more for the land than the livestock. When I looked into it, I could find no example of anyone making money from the wool (it all comes from South America). All the profits were from selling animals to other "investors".

They are interesting creatures, though one of them here looks a little bogus.

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 2, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
Perhaps a venture into an Angora sheep ranch near Bodie?
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Terry, I hadn't real-eyesed your vacation-interrupting episode was this serious. I hope that your hopes come true. Myself, I have a plastic lens in my right eye.

"See you and raise you."--Kenny Rogers

This thread drift brought to you by combined effort. :0)
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 2, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
Helping a family member, friend or neighbor need not always involve money

Agreed! But often those categories are the limit of where we're willing to extend our empathy on our own.

Maybe we didn't really need those damn Yankees and their liberal ideas of freedom, and we would have freed blacks on our own benevolence without our governments civil war. Or maybe 150 years later we didn't need our governments Brown v Board of Education or the Civil Rights Act to say that separate but equal wasn't equal, and we were on our way to treating people equally on our own. Or maybe 60 years after that we didn't need the DOJ to tell us about Ferguson's institutional racism because can't we all just get along? And maybe daddy saying about the highest status black American ever "Obama is a little girl who soiled his panties" doesn't reflect on his or his or my daughter's skin color, and doesn't just reinforce all Americans valuing lighter skin color over darker skin color. Sure, maybe.
hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
Apr 2, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
Both kids are ready to go off to school and they seem to be good people- you'd like them for your neighbors
Marriage is good
Don't owe anyone money
I made a good choice of career--taught (or at least tried to teach) about 4000 students over the last 30 years
I have a few skills but I'm not great at anything
I can laugh at myself
So to answer your question i would say No i'm not poor

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2015 - 09:31am PT
Must be Obama, or maybe it was Bush, Clinton? Truman?

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