Discussion Topic |
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Highgloss
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 25, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
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I bought a set of large(1.5"-3") Metolius hexes a few years back when building up my rack. I have only used them a handful of times and mostly find them awkward to carry and hard to find placements for. Am I missing something or are they pretty much obsolete?
Thoughts? Any resale value here?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 25, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
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They are good to start with, because you have to think about, and learn to recognize, good placements. This knowledge will make your cam placements better. Since cams go more places, it's not always clear, what is, or isn't, a good placement.
I rarely use them now, however, from this weekend...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
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When!!!
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Feb 25, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
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I use them for bail gear.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
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It's nicer to bail on a few hexes than on a few cams. When I want to be lighter/cheaper and might need to leave something behind, I like to have hexes (only in the bigger sizes- smaller sizes I find nuts work better). Or when climbing in different situations (e.g. with kids or newbies), it's fun to use them to keep up the excitement level.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
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And you can always say....NutAgain!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Feb 25, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
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Mostly just the stoppers, but on some climbs a hex is needed....
Like close to the top of Course and Buggy in Josh, that #8 placed on its end fitts the bump, you can't get that placement with a cam...
And I think when your starten out, stoppers and hexes teach you to really look at the shape of the stone....
whatever you have in your shot... don't know about them.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Feb 25, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
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hell yeah i use hexes, they work great. Too bulky for a rack, but for tr anchors they are strong, reliable and have no moving parts. Plus the larger ones are an effective self defense device
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Highgloss
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
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Cool photos T Hocking.
Seems like people prefer to have a nylon sling rather than a wired hex, whats the school of thought there? I suppose I will have to give them a second chance. They do make that pleasing sound when they are banging together on a approach.
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Feb 25, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
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Sorry... I like hexes. Depending on what climb I'm on. Get old school yo'. I also have been laughed at. Frickin' teenagers. ;-)
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Gene
climber
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Feb 25, 2015 - 05:08pm PT
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There is nothing quite like the clanging of hexes on your rack on the walk up and down from the crag. It's music.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
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They do make that pleasing sound when they are banging together on a approach.
I basically stopped using them for a decade when a partner from New Zealand used to say "put away those F@cking bumbly bells" every time I started to rack 'em up ;)
I hate using ones with wires because the wires tend to move them out of position more than slings.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
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I got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
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They do make that pleasing sound when they are banging together on a approach. [Click to View YouTube Video]
I think better advice for beginning trad leaders is to *borrow* a set of hexes.
From one of the many trad leaders who has realized they aren't worth having on the rack anymore.
I lent mine and later gave them away (to beginning trad leaders),
except for a sentimental self-drilled #7 (from my high school days in the early 70s).
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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I still carry #1-#3 old style on a wire and an updated #4 & #5.
Great dump nuts low on a pitch if you need to conserve your selection and much cheaper than most other nuts should you nee to leave anything to bail.
Very useful on sandstone too if you aren't in the realm of the parallel.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 25, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
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I do that too, Steve G. I carry three or four totally worn down old wired # 1s & 2s one each ofthe three, four five and six well those last two are redundant pieces.
Then I get wierd I like Clog Wabs they look a lot like the OP's New "Hexs", but have thicker walls , I can't post a picture right now .
I also carry the smallest Tri cams stiffend for better control while reaching to place,they are roughly the same size as the two & 3 hex.
, three pinks one filed down and the same with the red slings,#1s one ground down, The custom, ground pieces,are for a few .11s in the Gunks and the outlying hills. Almost all of my gear is at least twenty years old, I did upgrade my # 3 -zero tcu's to aliens and a couple x4s.
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
therealmccoy from Nevada City
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Feb 25, 2015 - 08:34pm PT
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Not usually. I used to carry some around all the time when I was starting out, and I always made a point of trying to place them. These days I seem to carry as little as possible, which usually includes leaving the hexes behind. I don't often carry my tricams either, even though I love those damn things. Only when I think I will really use/need.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Feb 25, 2015 - 09:40pm PT
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Was climbing with mixed rack until about 1996.
Then a better climber asked me, "Why are you doing that?"
I couldn't answer quickly.
1. Once you finally get them in, they feel much safer.
2. The pleasing sound of the larger one's clinking together as you walk.
That's about it.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Feb 25, 2015 - 10:54pm PT
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Yep. Sometimes they're just the ticket.
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feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
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Feb 25, 2015 - 11:16pm PT
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Always take 6,8,9. Much of my local rock is too irregular and molar toothed for cams to be ubiquitously reliable (even a small walk fans them out completely, fully disengages a lobe or two, or puts a lobe on an easily destroyed nipple).
Plus I have lots of slots behind loose blocks or weird funnels that only work for umbrella-ed cams. Umbrella-ed cams don't set and can rotate then pull through (plus I still have to use some of my old rigid friends, and they don't work umbrella-ed).
I also dislike the force multiplication of cams in loose blocks. Since that's often about 1/4 of my pro, I tend to prefer passive gear.
Rapping off a single cam still scares me. A #9 hex - not at all....
I do HATE black diamonds wired hexes (love that hex shape though). The wires are about 3-4" too long. They cowbell something awful. I keep my cords stopper lengths and they are much less noisy and easier to carry.
Normal rack pink, red, brown tri-cam, 6,8,9 hex, 1.5 set stopper, blue & yellow metolius tcu, two to four cams as per features.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Feb 25, 2015 - 11:24pm PT
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Good for building bomber top-rope anchors.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 25, 2015 - 11:38pm PT
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There are places where hexes are better than cams, but they are unusual/rare.
Back in the days before cams, only the superstars dared to climb at the Cookie on hexes and stoppers.
Now pretty much anyone can climb there with cams, and not have to do mandatory runouts when the crack is too parallel to take a good hex.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 26, 2015 - 12:09am PT
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I still have a gold-anodized wired BD hex - a #9 I believe - for a specific placement on a particular climb, otherwise that's a big negatory on the hexes for at least the past twenty years or so. I was still using a #8 Titon on a sling I couldn't bear to be without for about five years after I stopped using hexes. Stopped using TriCams about the same time as that Titon.
Rack now is just doubles in Metolius MasterCams, doubles in HB alloy offsets, two of the larger WC Rocks, and #2-4 Lowe/Byrne Ballnuts, I augment that as needed with large Metolius and BD cams, offset Metolius MasterCams, HB Brassies, Crack-N-ups setup for free climbing, and some old Wild Things Air Voyagers.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 26, 2015 - 12:52am PT
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I don't know if it's still there, or if people still use it, but there used to be a great placement in the Bishop's Balcony horizontal roof crack, a hammered large hex in one of the well-worn pin scars. It looked spooky, but was apparently sound. I suppose it was less of a "hex" placement than a "copperhead", but it was definitely a Chouinard Hexcentric. I solo aided that roof on a rainy day, and that fixed hex was one of best aspects of the experience.
The #8 Hexcentric, to me, was a magical piece of gear, way back then.
Later? Cams were easier to place.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 26, 2015 - 07:04am PT
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had planed to vist and just Input thru edit but I will not,
I have three or four Racks worth of gear like most I would bet, One just for Work is shiney "new w" you bet!
BUT
then there are the other kind a 'work ' racks, here is my goto
Add old scary strap tri cams i am to embarrassed to show
( 3,straight sided nutz?) a ridged stem Wild country frnd or two,
and old big camalots two green boat anchors, who's up?? take my rack please?. .
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Feb 26, 2015 - 08:12am PT
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I use cams and stoppers, but carry the larger hexes to the crag and like to use them occasionally just to keep in practice. As Jaybro said, you have to think about your placement and you learn to recognize good placements.
Moosedrool:
LOL, classic picture
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 26, 2015 - 08:54am PT
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If you've got the matching Rubaffat sweater and perm, you're good to go.
Now that cams do passive - it seems you might need the nickers, too.
My pals and I have kind of standardized on a few tiny HB offset brass nuts, BD micro offset nuts and DMM anodized offset stoppers - then a variety of cams. That does the trick.
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Jones in LA
Mountain climber
Tarzana, California
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Feb 26, 2015 - 08:57am PT
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Until very recently I carried my original 1972 Chouinard "lucky #6" on nearly every trad climb I got on. I think it's because I liked the color of the cord more than anything else (purple & gold).
This particular hex also has some dings on it from a few hammer taps: a relic of that awkward time when climbers carried a hammer, pins, and nuts, and when it was considered OK to use the hammer to help "seat" a nut better. In retrospect this seems kind of absurd, but back then...well...it was a transitional period.
When I realized that I never actually placed lucky #6 on any climb, I retired it. I think it was the Totem Cam that finally did it in.
Rich Jones
P.S. -- I still carry a 'lucky' MOAC stopper from that era, and it gets placed frequently.
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Barbarian
climber
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Feb 26, 2015 - 09:07am PT
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There is nothing sweeter than the sound of hex "bells" on the way to the crag.
There is no anchor as satisfying as the prefectly placed nut (Hex or Stopper). Completely bombproof.
Yeah, I'm old. Get over it.
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Lulz
Ice climber
North East
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Feb 26, 2015 - 09:14am PT
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I have a friend that always brings them when doing mixed and alpine routes. He hammers them home and prefers that than relying on cams in icy cracks.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 26, 2015 - 09:17am PT
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Titons are lighter and more useful.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 26, 2015 - 09:27am PT
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Jones you still got good eyes, NOT HEXS PER SAY at all
just wait till the snow blows through
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 26, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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I stopped using them when cams came out. Stoppers are still required gear for small placements. Occasionally a route is noted for a specific piece of gear, such as that pitch on the P.O. that needs one of those Lowe cam nuts whose name escapes me. I think a 2 inch bong also fits that placement, but who carries bongs anymore? Even on walls.
Then again, I've been out of the game for ages.
I've noticed that the photos of hexes above shows something: they are barely scratched. Brand new looking after decades of use.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Feb 26, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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I have (4) of the largest sizes...old school from the 70/80's with lightening holes drilled by the previous owner.
As others mentioned they are great for when learning about placing pro and as additional pieces if you don't have enough cams. -I remember bringing a bunch to climb Owl Rock 15 or more years ago when I only had a few cams, etc.
However, I do carry them for alpine stuff. Overall lighter IMO and many placement options for each one.
Dig it!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 26, 2015 - 11:07am PT
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I still take hexes with me on aid routes to supplement my cams because of the weight and cost factors (I bought first- and second-generation Hexcentrics long before cams were on the market).
I also take single runners with large hexcentrics attached on many easy free climbs, particularly in the high Sierra. Generally, though, cams are so much more versatile that I leave the hexes at home.
John
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Feb 26, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
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You mean there are people that don't use them?
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Feb 26, 2015 - 01:31pm PT
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You mean there are people that don't use them?
My takeaway as well. Now,I'm wondering if there would be people who don't know how to Prusik up a rope.
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Highgloss
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
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Thats a great point, alpine style routes are a perfect place for the hex. Since I am to scared of being frozen to death waiting for a rescue or getting caught in a storm, I don't think I will ever alpine climb.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 26, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
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Freezing to death is way under-rated.
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Feb 26, 2015 - 06:04pm PT
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Since I learned on them, I love them. Don't find placing them difficult at all, and trust them much more when well placed than a cam that likes to walk!
Like tri-cams too. PM me if you want to sell them. Them new fangled things look nice.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Feb 26, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
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I still use them...
...as wind chimes.
To eliminate the nostalgic but undesirable cow-bell clink, mill a slot 80% of the way along one side and then they make a beautiful chime. True geeks might even consider tuning by varying the length of the slot.
TE
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Feb 26, 2015 - 07:09pm PT
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I still use them all of the time. I also use the pink and red tricams, with filed down 'half' sizes as the Gnome mentioned earlier.
Bomber!
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Feb 26, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
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There are places where hexes are better than cams, but they are unusual/rare. One of such places I know is Reed Direct. The hexes works there perfect and better than cams
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F10
Trad climber
Bishop
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Feb 26, 2015 - 07:44pm PT
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Most definitely
Started out with hexes and stoppers, very confident using them.
Really makes one appreciate cracks and their irregularities.
They provide some bomber pro if you know what your doing.
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Fletcher
Boulder climber
A very quiet place
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Feb 26, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
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I have about four or five that are 20 years old. These were the ones that you needed to sling. Agree they are good for learning to make placements. I bought some cord to resling mine about 10 years ago. This is still on the To Do list. Obviously I'm not using these anymore! I may need to replace the replacement cord if I ever do want to use them. Ha ha!
Hmmm... coincidence that my oldest at home kid is 11?
I like having them around in the garage though. Also like the idea of using them for bail gear. I might do that.
Have also thought on occasion that they'd make a good weapon in a pinch!
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
When I climbed for a while with Derek Starr/Roy Naas and he used to call tricams the poor man's cams. I do like tricams too and still carry the smallest 4 from pink on up. They come in handy and I use them pretty frequently.
Cheers,
Eric
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Feb 26, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
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Yes.
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Watermann2
Big Wall climber
Saluzzo Italia
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Feb 27, 2015 - 12:02am PT
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Good Morning .I agree with Mr. LULZ. In iced cracks are (in my humble opinion) and experience higher than friends, because I hammer them with interlocking bombproof (absolutely not move after being beaten with a hammer) (which you can not do with friends) The great BEGHIN died on Annapurna ( ANNAPURNA FACE SUD BEGHIN LAFAILLE) after putting a friend in a crack ice, for abseiling, and when he took off down the friend (slipped away from the crack ice) and the great Beghin crashed and died.
P.S. :
However, they are still much used in the mountains as the BEN NEVIS where they are iced cracks, given the peculiarities of the terrain in which it takes place climbing.
(For the type of climbing on frozen ground)
Mr. Lulz Writes:
"""""""""" have a friend that always brings them when doing mixed and alpine routes. He hammers them home and prefers that than relying on cams in icy cracks.""""""""""""
Greetings.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Feb 27, 2015 - 12:22am PT
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healyje, these ones should remind you something...
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 27, 2015 - 03:38am PT
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Does
that
answer
your
question
Use em
Until
neither
You
or them
Are
shiney
rock
on!
Two more things that only Hex's can do;
they throw into placements, cowboy
It takes practice, and it is best if you are wearing
A helmet.
and 'fixed' in place
you can thread the rope through,
to descend and take your rope with you,
not having to leave
A Carabiner.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 27, 2015 - 07:19am PT
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I've used them a lot over the years....every one of my FA's in Yosemite was done in the precam years.
Times moves on and so does technology. I have always been a minimalist and while stoppers still have a place on my rack hexes have gone the way of the Dodo bird.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Feb 27, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
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Relative n00b reporting in (~4 years), and I use hexes. Mostly because my cousin, who I've learned most about climbing from, still does, and the guy he learned from still does, but I find them useful and drag them out even when I'm the "old timer".
Admittedly I'm terrible with them, and usually end up slotting them in as big nuts rather than efficiently using their camming action. I frequently use them for anchors, when I can spend a bit more time with my placement, and so I can save my limited cam collection for placing when I'm in a hurry.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Feb 27, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
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One argument advanced in favor of hexes is weight savings. I decided to quantify this difference.
I compared the DMM Torque Nut (since I think it is the most useful hex currently available) with the DMM cams fitting the same size range.
Torque Nuts come in four sizes so I compared weight of those four Torque nuts with their four counterparts in the 4 cu line.
I found only a five ounce weight savings between the two sets of four pieces.
Given the cams fit a larger range of crack size (amongst other advantages of cams v. hexes) I find this exercise disproves any realistic advantage to hexes v. cams based on weight savings.
So, Donini and the other old-dogs-who-have-learned-new-tricks apparently have the better argument. I wanted this data to show the hexes had a significant advantage, but it doesn't seem to be true.
Has anyone else done the math?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I tried for a while climbing with a single set of cams and a matching set of hexes, but the cams were, in general, so much more versatile that I gave up on that set-up. I could still see using it for remote climbs where weight matters, if the climbs aren't too hard for me.
For the most part, I don't carry hexes any more, but sometimes I wish I had some. They are perfect for horizontal cracks the open inward---i.e. are wider further back then at the lip. Smaller versions of such cracks make for perfect keyhole stopper placements, but now I have to put a cam in the bigger cracks, and the fact that the crack widens inward means that it is easy for the cam to walk in and umbrella. A hex would be the way to go.
Something similar happens with vertical cracks that are beyond normal stopper width but whose sides pinch together---a cam can walk upwards and umbrella, and a hex would be a better choice there too.
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feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
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While doing a new route yesterday through a band of really rotten rock I ran into a couple of placements hard to protect with the cams I had (but would have been fine for the hexes I left at the house):
-vertical crack with fractured rock where there were a number of triangular divots on the sides: cam lobes either flared in these divots or only had minimal contact with the edge of the lobe. Hexes large surface area would have ignored the divots getting spotches of good contact. Nuts didn't have the width to get by the divots.
-inward flaring crack at a top of a short crack. The crack was too irregular, broken and flared for much, but at the top I could have dumped a hex at the top of the block and had it fall behind. Large surface area would have been able to ignored some of the weird flaring and constricting variation. With no hexes I ended up relying on a small TCU jammed near a small section of "regular" rock near the surface of the crack which I was certain would have exploded with much force on it.
-the large blocks in this section (fridge size) weren't fully hollow, but I would have preferred to minimize any extra force magnifications (note I don't know in practice how the expansion forces generated by a cam compare to those of a cammed hex).
Sorry, no picts - camera stolen from my car couple of months ago...
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couchmaster
climber
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Yeah, I love hexes, but seriously, cams plug in and pull out so much easier that they speed your times up enough that you mostly don't need hexes. I posted a photo below that would be the 1 instance you might want to use hexes, but in looking at the pic, I realized I retired that Jrat gear sling 2 years back, so it's an old picture (still have those shoes, on their 6th resole now but I rarely use them these days). Probably had a lot more hair too:-)
In regards to the question asked upthread "Seems like people prefer to have a nylon sling rather than a wired hex, whats the school of thought there? ". For me: nylon sling -x2. I bought a set of wired BD's when they came out, thinking that they would replace my old near-retired hexes. I mean, if wired nuts were so much better than slung nuts, wouldn't wired hexes also be that much better than slung hexes? NOT the case with cams as it turns out. Slung works better as they eliminate the need for any additional slinging most of the time. They do take up a bit more rack real estate though.
In answer to the question "what advantages do hexes have over cams", I think that a careful use of a hex in blocky stone will reduce the outward force that a cam would cause in a fall. You can hire Ed H or another smart person to do that math, but certainly every cam out there, when fallen on, causes shitloads of outward force: hexes less so. For loose blocks, you don't want to be hanging on a cam or pulling outwards on any blocks at all.
That said: some routes in some areas have naturally shaped grooves adn cracks that open up in the back accept hexes much better.....a few routes in a few areas.....either that or they have heinous blocks of looseish stone perhaps better left unclimbed, although hexes will cause less outward force:
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Plus the larger ones are an effective self defense device
There was a particularly unsettled time that I carried a singular #10 just for that reason while bouldering in a certain locale.
(A blue Camalot would work just as well)
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David Plotnikoff
Mountain climber
Emerald Hills, CA
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For anchor building, you betcha. I can poke three of those indestructible things in whereas I'd sure think twice about committing three cams for belt-and-suspenders redundancy. Particularly for TR anchors for the kids, they're still very useful. They don't leave the gear closet very much since my kid started leading four years back, but they're still relevant. DP
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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The Pennsylvania Dutch depend on them...
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