Isis Part II

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dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 18, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
Isis is bad.

These guys


would make the situation worse.

Discuss.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2015 - 04:52pm PT
What happened to ISIS Part 1 ??

Destroyed by Trolls?

Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists. Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

Let's start by getting our definitions straight: An Internet troll is someone who comes into a discussion and posts comments designed to upset or disrupt the conversation. Often, in fact, it seems like there is no real purpose behind their comments except to upset everyone else involved. Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response.

What kind of person would do this? Some Canadian researchers decided to find out.

They conducted two online studies with over 1,200 people, giving personality tests to each subject along with a survey about their Internet commenting behavior. They were looking for evidence that linked trolling with the "Dark Tetrad" of personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism.


They found that Dark Tetrad scores were highest among people who said trolling was their favorite Internet activity. To get an idea of how much more prevalent these traits were among Internet trolls, see this figure from the paper:


Look at how low the Dark Tetrad scores are for everyone except the trolls! Their scores for all four traits soar on the chart. The relationship between trolling and the Dark Tetrad is so significant that the authors write in their paper:


"... the associations between sadism and GAIT (Global Assessment of Internet Trolling) scores were so strong that it might be said that online trolls are prototypical everyday sadists." [emphasis added]

Trolls truly enjoy making you feel bad. To quote the authors once more (because this is a truly quotable article): "Both trolls and sadists feel sadistic glee at the distress of others. Sadists just want to have fun ... and the Internet is their playground!"

The next time you encounter a troll online, remember:
1.These trolls are some truly difficult people.
2.It is your suffering that brings them pleasure, so the best thing you can do is ignore them.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
The creator of the thread nuked it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
Internet Trolls Really Are Horrible People; Narcissistic, Machiavellian, psychopathic, and sadistic.

By Chris Mooney
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html

The Internet is sadists' playground.

In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology has made some strides. Last year, for instance, we learned that by hurling insults and inciting discord in online comment sections, so-called Internet trolls (who are frequently anonymous) have a polarizing effect on audiences, leading to politicization, rather than deeper understanding of scientific topics.

That’s bad, but it’s nothing compared with what a new psychology paper has to say about the personalities of trolls themselves. The research, conducted by Erin Buckels of the University of Manitoba and two colleagues, sought to directly investigate whether people who engage in trolling are characterized by personality traits that fall in the so-called Dark Tetrad: Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive others), narcissism (egotism and self-obsession), psychopathy (the lack of remorse and empathy), and sadism (pleasure in the suffering of others).


It is hard to overplay the results: The study found correlations, sometimes quite significant, between these traits and trolling behavior. What’s more, it also found a relationship between all Dark Tetrad traits (except for narcissism) and the overall time that an individual spent, per day, commenting on the Internet.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:02pm PT
I liked this one so much I'll share it again.


ISIS moms are hawwt!!









skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:05pm PT
They say third times the charm: Isis, Part trois

I'd say the Alantic article ElCap put up is a good start to understanding their frame of mind. Otherwise....

[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:08pm PT
These loons here are busy studying ISIS but neglect to study the criminal loons who created, train and supply them.

The US, UK and Israel are the main perpetrators.

Thus the fools in this thread have been 0wned again and again as being stupid sheep ....


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
There are many that are not in denial about what created ISIS
But explaining it here seems to be unproductive,
facts are challenged by the media that only gives us "misinformation and propaganda".
Apparently the are 2 sides, one considering the factual information that changes every day
and the other side that is wrong about everything
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists. Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

Let's start by getting our definitions straight: An Internet troll is someone who comes into a discussion and posts comments designed to upset or disrupt the conversation. Often, in fact, it seems like there is no real purpose behind their comments except to upset everyone else involved. Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response.

What kind of person would do this? Some Canadian researchers decided to find out.

They conducted two online studies with over 1,200 people, giving personality tests to each subject along with a survey about their Internet commenting behavior. They were looking for evidence that linked trolling with the "Dark Tetrad" of personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism.


They found that Dark Tetrad scores were highest among people who said trolling was their favorite Internet activity. To get an idea of how much more prevalent these traits were among Internet trolls, see this figure from the paper:


Look at how low the Dark Tetrad scores are for everyone except the trolls! Their scores for all four traits soar on the chart. The relationship between trolling and the Dark Tetrad is so significant that the authors write in their paper:


"... the associations between sadism and GAIT (Global Assessment of Internet Trolling) scores were so strong that it might be said that online trolls are prototypical everyday sadists." [emphasis added]

Trolls truly enjoy making you feel bad. To quote the authors once more (because this is a truly quotable article): "Both trolls and sadists feel sadistic glee at the distress of others. Sadists just want to have fun ... and the Internet is their playground!"

The next time you encounter a troll online, remember:
1.These trolls are some truly difficult people.
2.It is your suffering that brings them pleasure, so the best thing you can do is ignore them.

Internet Trolls Really Are Horrible People; Narcissistic, Machiavellian, psychopathic, and sadistic.

By Chris Mooney
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html

The Internet is sadists' playground.

In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology has made some strides. Last year, for instance, we learned that by hurling insults and inciting discord in online comment sections, so-called Internet trolls (who are frequently anonymous) have a polarizing effect on audiences, leading to politicization, rather than deeper understanding of scientific topics.

That’s bad, but it’s nothing compared with what a new psychology paper has to say about the personalities of trolls themselves. The research, conducted by Erin Buckels of the University of Manitoba and two colleagues, sought to directly investigate whether people who engage in trolling are characterized by personality traits that fall in the so-called Dark Tetrad: Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive others), narcissism (egotism and self-obsession), psychopathy (the lack of remorse and empathy), and sadism (pleasure in the suffering of others).


It is hard to overplay the results: The study found correlations, sometimes quite significant, between these traits and trolling behavior. What’s more, it also found a relationship between all Dark Tetrad traits (except for narcissism) and the overall time that an individual spent, per day, commenting on the Internet.

Nice trollery, Craig.

Or do those posts have something to do with discussing ISIL?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
You don't like hearing from the other side??
What's wrong Sketch/stench/ EdwardT

I thought this was a free forum
I have Never Been a troll, Fact
unlike you,

I think Bruce Kay pinned you perfectly as well
Why are you in such denial?
WBraun

climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:19pm PT
Craig Fry -- " ... and the other side that is wrong about everything"


And you're right about everything as usual?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
Or do those posts have something to do with discussing ISIL?

Because the OP deleted his ISIS Thread because of Trolls ....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
The Atlantic Monthly link bears a repost.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Nothing there that hasn't been posited for years by what "progressives" deem illegitimate sources.

(also a bit too long an article for their short attention spans)
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
The original thread was "Chiefed".

Very good speech by the President today. We are lucky to have such an intelligent leader.

CNN)President Barack Obama, speaking at his summit on countering violent extremism Wednesday, sought to strike a balance between appealing for more acceptance of Muslim-Americans while emphasizing the need to remain vigilant against radicals who could turn violent.

"We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have perverted Islam," Obama said during his remarks, adding later that Muslim leaders "need to do more to discredit the notion that our nations are determined to suppress Islam."

Obama went to lengths before the summit began to avoid linking extremism to the Muslim faith; his intent, aides say, was to avoid giving credence to the ideologies of Islamic State or al Qaeda terrorists.

On Wednesday he sought to explain his wording, declaring al Qaeda and ISIS "desperate for legitimacy."

"They try to portray themselves as religious leaders, holy warriors in defense of Islam," he said. "We must never accept the premise that they put forward because it is a lie. Nor should we grant these terrorists the religious legitimacy that they seek. They are not religious leaders. They are terrorists."
WBraun

climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:26pm PT
The Atlantic Monthly article is only half truth speculative oped and avoids the whole truth as usual.

Americas sheep in action .....
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
Craig Fry wrote:

You don't like hearing from the other side??
What's wrong Sketch/stench/ EdwardT

I thought this was a free forum
I have Never Been a troll, Fact
unlike you,

I think Bruce Kay pinned you perfectly as well
Why are you in such denial?

^This gem^ just oozes irony.

Good stuff.

Thanks, buddy.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
The Atlantic Monthly article is only half truth and avoids the whole truth as usual .....

Yes, we are blind. But Werner Braun, ensconsed in the Fortress of Truthiness, deep within the bowels of Yosemite Valley, sees the world as it really is.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:57pm PT
Wait and see... there are going to be some silver linings to this emergent ISIS phenomenon.

.....

At base: biology.
Adolescent males. In search of... conquest, reward, females.

One of nature's ways of stirring the pot.
Essential to robust evolution.

Too much movement, not enough evolution.
Too little movement, not enough evolution.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Feb 18, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
Very good speech by the President today. We are lucky to have such an intelligent leader.

Indeed. Totally nailed it. He finally lay this mess at the Islamic Communities door, without being divisive. The worst thing we could do, is alienate the Islamic Community. Without them, we can't eliminate ISIS.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
Jim, are you the ST police now?
and you sure have a lot of poo poo to say about the true left
I have lost all respect thankyou

exactly what did I say that challenged you?
Maybe we can work through this..
thebravecowboy

climber
On this ride, I'm cptn; My pals call me Shackleton
Feb 18, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 18, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
25 posts in, to sum up:

crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 06:35pm PT
It wasn't a coincidence that all those shiny new American weapons systems were handed over to ISIS without so much as a WTF by the USA Military Lease Department.

Interesting how the foreign policy experts at Supertopo embrace or hint at conspiracy theories on a regular basis. Love to see the dots connected on this whopper.

In truth, it's impossible to sum up the ISIS threat in a neat forum post. It's complicated and evolving. We are doing the right thing now; bolstering the Iraqi army, air strikes to blunt their advance, helping the Kurd's, etc. There likely will come a time in the not too distant future that US (and Canadian) ground forces in large numbers will be needed. For that, like the '93 Gulf War, we will need a strong coalition of Arab nations to be successful.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
Werner, do you know you acting like a psychotic stalker after Crankster???
Knock it off, stop acting like a psychopath.
Please
WBraun

climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
The real psychopath is him.

He started whole thing and kept it going all along.

I don't give sh!t what you think period Craig .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
Hey I bet there's something we can all agree on...

"Quantico, Virginia" is a cool name.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
Thanks, Craig, but nobody really cares what this Neanderthal has to say. Notice how he's mostly ignored? Ron's a nut, too, but at least he attempts to back up a point, on occasion.

Try to get back on topic, righties. You're embarrassing yourselves. You have someone else in the bullpen? Send in the second stringers.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:17pm PT
He started what?
Lighting the fuse of a psychopath stalker?
Crankster did no such thing.
Try and prove it.

NEOCON???
you are delusional

any question to WB is lighting the fuse.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
'91... Now let's see you make a cogent remark about ISIS...tick.....tick...
WBraun

climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
BY by .... Craig you're even dumber then I ever thought ....
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
I'm out

the turn to the bottom of this thread has just began

No rational discussions can be continued after the troll squad has impregnated the topic
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
Wow, we got the entire Eastside, old dude, extremist crowd out tonight. Nothin cookin' at the Roadhouse?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
I'm out

the turn to the bottom of this thread has just began

No, Craig.

The turn to the bottom occurred in the OP.

Hope you like my contribution.

crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
This thread has been '"Chiefed". Shut ''er down.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
Gee, Professor Chief, I guess the shield comes before the storm. Now...try to make some kind of intelligent post and quit this humiliating display.

And to Jim of the North...What evidence of any kind do you have to support your theory? You're hinting, not providing any evidence. Left of center....that's me, you sound a bit further left.
peladob

Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
Rick, the Kiwi is now just ignored on SP.

I hope we don't have to play the "pretend he don't exist" game with you. I actually do like a lot of your perspective.
peladob

Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
Busy and outta shape, but I'm shooting more and getting good groupings on the tactical courses.

You?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
Let's salvage this thread...


Maajid Nawaz

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
How bout those Yankees..? Great weather eh...?
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:42pm PT

Feb 18, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
Clinton watched the whole thing in Bosnia unfold as tens of thousands of innocent women and children were slaughtered and did absolutely nothing for well over five years. Nothing!

Revisionist rightwing media nonsense. (not to mention having nothing to do with this thread). The U.S. and NATO ended the conflict.

You figure the U.S. can interven anywhere in the world at any time, huh?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
The Chief...Rad..!!
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 07:57pm PT
Oh man, ADHD and turbid sophomoricism, Cheef, you're the whole package.

You girls carry on. I'll check back when the adults reemerge.


Feb 18, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
It's true. The self determination of the Yugoslavian states went on for years. It came to be regarded by western media as something "those people" loved to indulge in.

10 years collectively of civil war in Europe and no one else gave a sh#t until Clinton was embarrassed into doing something. It's a fact.

Yeah, something about sending your country's young men and women into a foreign war somehow stymies leaders. Oh yeah, except George Bush.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
You lost me at the Ducati GP-15, Cheef.

ISIS..Focus.
peladob

Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
Feb 18, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
Back in Utah and trying to get back to climbing.

Thyroids are tricky, keep at it.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 18, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
Yeah, after Clinton sat on his prickless ass and so many hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children were brutalized and slaughtered.

Yes, it's better to attack a country that didn't do anything to us and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

Also, there's a couple of reasons all of our forces were volunteer. First we've been without a draft for many years so of course it was full of volunteers that had joined for a myriad of reasons. Then came a bumper crop of people that wanted to go to war in retribution for being attacked on American soil. Unfortunately we invaded the wrong country.
It's no wonder why we aren't loved throughout the middle east/world.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 18, 2015 - 11:37pm PT
We could go on and on about what happened under which potus.

I think you give ISIS to much credence.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 19, 2015 - 06:57am PT
First thing the President needs to do is consult the foreign policy experts at Supertopo. What better qualification is there than being a dirtbag climber with a drinking problem? I mean, with all the parroting of rightwing media's talking points (golfing is a popular one, the failure to "recognize" terrorists another), he could get it all in one stop.

And then the advice! Snipers, snipers, everywhere!! Getting the B-52's (not the group) out of mothballs, another!! Easy stuff, this combating a terrorist group operating amongst the civilian population in Arab nations halfway around the world.

Meanwhile, there is no sign of ISIS on the U.S. southern border. The Supertopo milita, ever vigilante, stands guard against the tide.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 19, 2015 - 07:48am PT
Another day of picking low hanging fruit? You must have a more productive activity.
He could end it tomorrow with a few nukes, huh, genius?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2015 - 08:02am PT
Millions of ^^^^trolls^^^^ have also been allowed to spew their incessant verbal diarhea under Obama's watch. This started under Clinton, who also did nothing. I hold the dem presidents 100% responsible.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:02am PT
I am more in ELCYOAZs camp. ISIS is pissing off their neighbors and that is who must end it. We should if asked facilitate and provide air support, rescue and some special forces. I am very against a major ground offensive by US troops.

The end picture is very unclear. I suspect the area will remain unstable for at least a decade after ISIS is gone. Realistically perhaps until oil runs out mebbe another 100 years.

Brutal minor leaders will continue to come and go. This is why I want the Jordans and Egypts of the area to be invested highly as they may be the only positive forces that can help stabilize the area. They are not exactly super stable themselves but If they don't we won't succeed in making this place any more stable either. Probably less so.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2015 - 08:04am PT
Yeah, that's my thinking too.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:09am PT
Armies and Logistics don't run on religion. They run on money.

They may and in this case are recruiting on religion. Recruit all you want.. without the money in this case oil.. the best you will have is a lot of mouths to feed and no way to feed them.

This place has been and will continue to be unstable and dangerous to the world for decades due to culture and oil money.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:14am PT
I have...but logistics are logistics. Can't run a real army which a real state requires without vast funding. Without funding there is no caliphate. There would still of course be a lot of jihadists with much more limited but still troublesome capabilities.

That is not going to change in our lifetime though no matter what we do.

The best thing is for those most directly affected to solve the problem. The various states in the area are the only ones who can make the best outcome.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:22am PT
Nice, put cap on what era presidents count.
Lets count the main one, how many American soldiers have died under which potus since your arbitrary date?

ISIS's political stage and fear mongering is designed just for people like you. More American battling in this area is what fuels there recruiting.

We'll all step up to the plate when need be, your not alone.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:25am PT
I didnt say sanctions was what would beat ISIS. I said oil money fuels the danger of the middle east. In this case ISIS and will be a problem for decades.

To destroy ISIS their 20k troops need to be killed and beaten into submission good old fashioned war style The Caliphate must have no territory and it would be best if Baghdadi remains alive with no territory.

But not by us.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:33am PT
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:37am PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 19, 2015 - 09:24am PT
Just like Vietnam, eh The? Though you most likely won't be able to, you should at least try to understand history.







Vietnam War

1955–1975

47,424

10,785

58,209

153,303

211,454 [Total U.S. dead and wounded]

2,489[62]

[21][63]Note as of 20 February 2014 Vietnam MIA Are 1,643

You can look up what all the numbers represent on the Internet.



EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 19, 2015 - 09:54am PT
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2015 - 10:38am PT
The day you start bacon wrapping corpses is the day I take up cannibalism.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Feb 19, 2015 - 10:42am PT


Susan
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 19, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
It's amazing how many problems can be fixed with bacon.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 19, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
"But when that bleeds into virtually every topic, when the grown ass men with an intellect of an ADHD 6 year old run riot in every thread, when whiners with no affiliation with climbing (oh, sorry, they hiked up the backside of a peak once) are allowed to dictate what is acceptable on this forum, when drive-by-trolls are allowed to remain....yeah, you can have it."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 19, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
Chief, I think DMT's missive was more of a snarky dig, actually.
LearningTrad

Trad climber
Feb 19, 2015 - 01:59pm PT
I'm "dig"gin' this thread.








EDIT: LOL!!!! (Not)
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 19, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
Gin?

I prefer bourbon.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 19, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
Amen, apogee
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
Feb 19, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
in part II

US and Iran become good friends and US leaves Iran to deal with ground troops while US takes the sky. Meanwhile Turkey get the cheap oil stolen by ISIS and charges UN for refugee cost of the war and Israel and AZ R Sen MC War take care of the arms sales via Qatar and Saudi

In short sentence, if Middle eastern themselves can't figure out WTF is going on in their backyard, what makes you sure you know ?

wait for part III cause that's where sh#t hits the fan


Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 19, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
Dr Strangelove advice is always best - Escalate.
We coudda beat those darn Vietcong.
All we had to do was carpetbomb... oh wait
All we had to do was defoliate... oh wait
All we had to do was prop up the true honest S. Vietnam leader... oh wait
All we had to do was send in 500000 more troops... oh wait
All we had to do was kill 50000 more draftees...
All we had to do was retreat with Honor... oh wait

Iraq
All we had to do was find the honest trustworthy Iraqi soldiers and train and support them... oh wait
All we had to do was send in more troops... oh wait
All we had to was get Saddam (our previous ally), & the evil WMD... oh wait
All we had to do was install the right people & not the Ba'athists.
All we had to do was support the honest politicians... oh wait
All we had to do was support the troops... oh wait
All we had to do was listen to cheney & rummy... oh wait
All we had to do was spend 12 years and $3 trillion... oh wait
All we had to was fund 200000 more PTSD disabilities for the volunteers... oh wait
All we had to do was fund Bremer & honest contractors... oh wait
No need to Wait: Mission Accomplished!
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 19, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
Would you say that classic emphasizes
power or endurance?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Feb 19, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
I should have never stopped bouldering.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 19, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Feb 19, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
WBraun: when did you last travel outside of the US, and to where.

I want to know how credible your posts are when you opine about international politics.

thanks, brah
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 19, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
Great posts on this page!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
I think Deadmans has snow but i'm all in on a 3 some or top roping with Richard Smoking...
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
WBraun: when did you last travel outside of the US, and to where.

It ain't just the Werner Duck. I ask that "when did you last travel outside of the US, and to where" question of almost all the posts on the politard threads on this forum.

Doesn't matter whether it's "kill all them commie/brown/terrist/raghead people" or "If only we could invite those commie/brown/terrist/raghead people onto one of our committees."

Listening to people who never leave their home country (or who only travel with the cocoon of their own country snugly wrapped around them) offer opinions on world affairs is simultaneously hilarious and depressing.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 19, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
If you don't like what The Chief says you could not respond.. or who is it exactly that has no self control? We are all entitled to opinionzzzzzz and AFAIK his time and tours at least get him a seat at the big boy table in this discussion. I'm off to the side in a high-chair fisting cheerios into my mouth, but its a fun discussion nonetheless.
peladob

Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
Feb 19, 2015 - 09:01pm PT
Yes.

Take Rick's good and ignore what you don't like/can't handle.

Getting yer panties all bunched up and saying he's killed the thread proves you can't be in the same room with a differing opinion.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 19, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
Getting yer panties all bunched up and saying he's killed the thread proves you can't be in the same room with a differing opinion.

This goes against the rules of the Supertopo Echo Chamber
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 19, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
In an unusual move, Pentagon officials disclosed details Thursday of military planning aimed at recapturing Mosul, Iraq's second-largest city, from Islamic State forces before the summer.

A senior official with U.S. Central Command, who briefed reporters on condition of anonymity, said the operation would involve as many as 25,000 Iraqi government troops and Kurdish militia fighters backed by coalition airstrikes and surveillance systems, and could begin in April or May.

It wasn't immediately clear why the Pentagon would publicly disclose a major military operation so far in advance unless it was intended, at least in part, to rattle the estimated 2,000 Sunni fighters believed to hold the northern Iraqi city.

This ain't nothing, righties. You should support our brave men and women instead of undermining them constantly.
thebravecowboy

climber
On this ride, I'm cptn; My pals call me Shackleton
Feb 19, 2015 - 09:58pm PT
*picks nose* goes back to geochemistry, beer, vegetarianism and the paradoxical combination of hard topropes and easy tall freesolos
thebravecowboy

climber
On this ride, I'm cptn; My pals call me Shackleton
Feb 19, 2015 - 10:37pm PT
so who's got some lube to lend this frictional, star-crossed love bi-angle?
thebravecowboy

climber
On this ride, I'm cptn; My pals call me Shackleton
Feb 19, 2015 - 11:40pm PT
Y--aaaaaa-wwwwwww-nnnn.

Nite fellas. Seems like maybe BVB has a better memory of today's events. Just sayin'.

You boys enjoy your squabbles tomorrow.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 20, 2015 - 01:18am PT
Chief: "BTW, I was active USN from Jan 75 through Apr 99. Spent over 3/4's of my career in SW Asia.

bvb: Well, that's great. What is your point


His point is that he spent 24+ years imagining that he coudda stopped the reds personally if only LBJ woudda done blah blah blah. Same way we stopped the reds in China... oh wait. Doesn't everyone know that LBJ was only pretending to fight when he escalated from 16000 troops in 1963 to to 540,000 by late 1968?
Fortunately Nixon listened to the experts, just like dubya, and won the war, with honor, as proven by the Pentagon Papers.
Oh yeah, if only we had listed to the Chief and applied the special tactic well known among conspiracy mongers, my uncle would not have been shot down in a useless preemptive war and we all would have lived happily ever after.

crankster

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 06:41am PT
He was advised by EVERYONE,

I was there! It was everyone! I mean Everyone! Nary a word against it!

US completely pulling out of Iraq,
Wasn't nobody who wanted us out of this 12-year war where we invaded the wrong country! Nobody! Oh year, if you exclude the American people. And forget the fact that invading and occupying Iraq looking for nonexistent WMD, forget the fact that it was the best jihadist recruitment tactic.

Solution - elect another Bush!! Throw in a nut job tea party VP to appease the red meat wacko base - bingo!
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 07:06am PT
^^
Can't make a lick of sense here...have some more coffee. Hurry.

A reminder: This thread is about ISIS. Not LBJ, the KKK or Rita Hayworth.
Yes, we know the rightwing media talking points you repeat
...ISIS could have been stopped by the President and it's all his fault. If only 'ol Mitt would have been at the helm, or Sarah Palin was in on the meetings...groan.

Meanwhile, our brave young men and women continue to risk their lives....
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Feb 20, 2015 - 07:15am PT
How easily they forget. Fkn ridiculous!!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
LearningTrad

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 07:37am PT
I'LL ARM WRESTLE ANYONE ON THIS THREAD RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 20, 2015 - 07:56am PT
Red/Blue... doesn't matter to me. All I see are criminals that have murdered millions of people around the world to serve their own interests. Vietnam is a perfect example of a horrible waste of tens of thousands of our own boys to fight another false "enemy" only created through propaganda. Now we buy clothing from Vietnam and send them fissable material for nuclear reactors.

There's nothing new here with ISIS except flashy, professinal videos of atrocious murders against just about every country that is targeted by this propaganda. The supposed grass-roots fundamentalism story of ISIS makes absolutely zero sense. To drive as many trained and well armed men across the distances that "ISIS" has covered requires massive funding, coordination and control. That doesn't happen with rag-tag "radical recruits". Where do the thousands of wounded ISIS warriors go? How do they establish the supply lines for food, fuel, ammunition, weapons, vehicles, etc? And at the same time they're being bombed by us they have even more money and time to weave another web of destruction across the entire world, on video. And they don't touch Israel, who is in their backyard actually killing Muslims everyday. Interesting.

These concrete realities, these complex massive logistics do NOT spotaneously arise out of Muslim angst.

There is something seriously wrong with this cartoonish monster.

WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 08:00am PT
Rita Katz the only distributor of these flashy, professinal videos of atrocious murders.

Rita gets them and is the sole source even before ISIS announces them.

Vedy vedy interesting ....
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 08:04am PT
Thanks DMT.

I think this beaten horse has been dead for quite awhile.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 08:52am PT
^^^
schizophrenia
noun schizo·phre·nia \ˌskit-sə-ˈfrē-nē-ə\
: a very serious mental illness in which someone cannot think or behave normally and often experiences delusions
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 20, 2015 - 08:55am PT
WBraun...vedy , vedy interesting...But stoopid..!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 09:08am PT
Um Chief Loudmouth...I was referring to your tedious Vietnam references.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 20, 2015 - 09:15am PT
Hey, Chief, do you think FEAR was being facetious with his question about
why ISIS doesn't attack Israel or was he trolling? LOL

I heard an excellent bit on NPR yesterday where the Saudi Intel head was
really laying it on the line. Dude was straight up and no BS. He called
out the Euros for being the limp-wristed worthless lot they usually are.
According to him they refuse to attack any ISIS targets outside of Syria.
Yeah, that's helpful.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 20, 2015 - 09:20am PT
Choose your answer carefully The Chief...Reilly is a trickster...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 20, 2015 - 09:28am PT
Well, Crank, a lot of people are into pederasty and bestiality, too.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 09:30am PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 20, 2015 - 09:33am PT
Who has roughly 30% of the posts here?



dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 10:31am PT
Well, know sh#t, chief loudmouth . We get it. JFK fooked up big time (though he was not a chicken hawk) and LBJ made it worse. We got the fookin point. We all knew this years before your nonstop yammering about it here. Nowhere have I defended LBJ's foreign policy, nor did I vote for him.

And in case you decide to dig way back, let's get this out of the way too. I did not vote for Andrew Jackson--the first Democratic president--and I believe his treatment of Native Americans was abhorrent. Except for telling southern separatists to stick it, he basically sucked. FDR's approval of the internment for Japanese was likewise horrible. Andrew Johnson might have been the worst president ever, setting back Lincoln's efforts at reconstruction, and the fair treatment of African Americans, decades. I have never cast a vote for AJ, for any office, nor would I have voted for him if he sought re-election. Oh, and Clinton lied about getting his johnson sucked off. That's bad, but I did vote for him twice.

That should just about cover it. Any other major Dem presidential fook ups from decades ago that you need to get off your chest?




Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
Feb 20, 2015 - 10:37am PT
But seriously I don't have time to read all these posts because I gotta get back to work because I'm a proletariat who has to support the pinko commie party machine that tells everybody who should be the haves and the have nots and which persons to call dirty scum sucking maggots who live off the mothers tit of society while we working people pay our taxes to support the bombing and raping of the innocents like our politicians tell us to do in the name of patriotism and fighting terrorism go Niners.
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Feb 20, 2015 - 10:37am PT
Fear,
They are not messing with the oil shipments either. The choke points at either end of the canal would be a great place to sink a couple supertankers if they really wanted to get some attention.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 10:47am PT
Lyndon and Andrew Johnson had Johnsons too.

Why, chief? Because I wanted to. Excluding your keyboard diarrhea, there were several interesting posts.

Edit: btw, you've been proven to be a liar and hypocrite many times. So quit trying to climb on a high horse, it's too tall for you.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 20, 2015 - 10:56am PT
I heard an excellent bit on NPR yesterday where the Saudi Intel head was really laying it on the line. Dude was straight up and no BS. He called
out the Euros for being the limp-wristed worthless lot they usually are.

A Saudi calling Euros limp wristed? That's f*#king rich right there. I've rarely met bigger pussies in my whole life than Saudis....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 20, 2015 - 10:58am PT
They are not messing with the oil shipments either. The choke points at either end of the canal would be a great place to sink a couple supertankers if they really wanted to get some attention.

They won't do that RB, it is probably their oil in them tankers. One of their primary sources of revenue.

Nonsense.... although that's what's been reported it again doesn't make sense. First there wouldn't be enough oil moved through the few fields they control to pay for 10% of their burn rate. Feeding/watering/arming/fixing/motivating that many people fighting in a harsh environment would be millions of dollars every day not counting the losses incurred from conflicts.

To "sell the oil" requires complex accounts to be setup. Tankers do not arrive with bags of cash or gold spontaneously.

Pumping/refining/transporting/selling lots of oil is again very complex involving thousands of knowledgeable people and not something beheading "Muslim Monsters" would have the knowledge or time to do.

Rotton from the ground up....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 20, 2015 - 10:59am PT
Well, Survival, I wasn't generalizing, I'll leave that to the PC crowd.
I was talking about that one guy and what he said. You have to hand it
to the Saudis for being able to get us to do their dirty work.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 11:02am PT
Hypocrite Dirtbag? Where?

Lol. Too funny. Dude, at least make this challenging.

Low hanging fruit coming up (this gem is located in his next sentence):

See, there's them attacks again. Right on cue.



Yes, we know you never ever ever ever attack anyone.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 11:08am PT
Ok Chief, let me help you..

You insult people here.

You complain about people insulting you here.


That makes you a...



....


...?



(Think hard, chief. I know, self reflection isn't one of your strengths, but I know you can do it.)
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 11:10am PT
Ok, back to work I go. It's been fun but I need to generate some tax money so the Feds can pay chief, and he can keep his internet service turned on.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 20, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
http://sultanknish.blogspot.de/2015/02/european-colonialism-is-only-thing-that.html


Progressive politicians and pundits trying to cope with ISIS lapse into a shrill incoherence that has nothing to do with their outrage at its atrocities and a lot to do with their sheer incomprehension. Terms like “apocalyptic nihilism” get thrown around as if heavy metal were beginning to make a comeback.

Those few analysts who admit that the Islamic State might be a just a little Islamic emphasize that it’s a medieval throwback, as if there were some modern version of Islam to compare it to.

Journalists trying to make sense of ISIS demanding Jizya payments and taking slaves ought to remember that these aren’t medieval behaviors in the Middle East. Not unless medieval means the 19th century. And that’s spotting them a whole century. Saudi Arabia only abolished slavery in 1962 under pressure from the United States.

LearningTrad

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
I remember when I used to argue with The Chief. Those were the good old days.

Y'all will learn, eventually.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 12:41pm PT

Feb 20, 2015 - 11:20am PT
Instead of this verbal ping pong, why don't some of you liberals here talk about how to solve and or react to issis..Or if we even should react to issis. And then what do you consider desirable attributes of issis types if any.

There been a lot of articles posted on this subject. The President talks about some ideas to help stem the tide of disaffected people joining the movement...it gets turned into a silly rightwing media deal about giving jobs to terrorists. Not remotely close to what he was talking about.

I posted an article about a potential military offensive in Mosul this spring. Another about US and Turkey training Syrian troops. Another about UK girls joining jihadist...wondering why this is attractive to them.

There's a couple for starters.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Feb 20, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
It's all Crap Locker.... Political OT's that is. Every single one of em.

Indeed The Chief...it is all crap. However, most of the posters only have one azzzhole through which to dump. Unfortunately, you must resemble Swiss cheese.


Susan
thebravecowboy

climber
On this ride, I'm cptn; My pals call me Shackleton
Feb 20, 2015 - 12:45pm PT
However, most of the posters only have one azzzhole through which to dump. Unfortunately, you must resemble Swiss cheese.

Hey, this thread is coming around.
LearningTrad

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
Yeah, Rick - it's totally me. I still laugh when I think about that meteorite picture you made of me in the north fork. Good times.

Why have I been kicked off forums? You familiar with that whole " wouldn't want to join a club that would have me as a member" concept, or however it goes? That's a good place to start, I'd imagine.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 20, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
Love the flung crap on Susan's part.
Great double standard that prevails here. Good stuff.

Double standard? What double standard?

As far as I can tell, this entire thread consists of very little except poo-flinging. On everybody's part.
LearningTrad

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 01:05pm PT

Feb 20, 2015 - 12:56pm PT
wouldn't want to join a club that would have me as a member"


At least we do have that in common my friend. You been putting any more cars into the LEE VINING creek? ;/


Oh, it's not a concept. It is real. Evidenced by so much that goes on here on the ST. This thread being a prime example.

It's the Tribal thing. Know what I mean, B!

Haha, I get it. As you can probably guess, it's all Lulzy to me.

No more cars in the creek, although I will say - that event has scarred me for life - can barely stand to ride shotgun with anyone any more, especially in bad weather. Not saying that I would have steered it any better, but maybe I would have.
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 01:11pm PT
I just returned from an important meeting with ISiS and they said they read this thread.

They said you Americans are even more insane then we are since you made us ......
LearningTrad

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
Haven't made it up once for LV, took a jaunt on McAdie last month, lake was frozen nice and thick. I remember you mentioned your lack of climbing recently. This...is definitely a serious bummer. Thank goodness for fly fishing and fast bikes, eh?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 20, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
Werner...ISIS made us...? I thought God made us... ISIS must be God..?
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Feb 20, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
Remember guise, The Chief was - I wasn't in the Navy so I'm guessing - A "Chief of Boats". Prolly like the First Sergeant in my unit BITD. An answer for everything. You'll never win.
LearningTrad

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 01:43pm PT



The Chief

climber
RFLMAO here on the Taco

Feb 20, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
You'll find out B. We gotta do what we gotta do to keep the sanity.

Nice shot on McAide. Wet snows gonna start flying next week for a while so you all might consider heading back up there in April for some snowy challenges.

I hope you're right about the snow, if temps hang low enough, that ice that forms in the gulley next to Thor falls is always fun to mess around on. Few thin options to scratch around on. we'll see I guess.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 02:26pm PT
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Feb 20, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I can't help but laugh.
Carry on...
TY
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
Feb 20, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
who is supporting supporting ISIS ? AKA rebel group ?

read more

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/2/20/israel-on-edge-as-hezbollah-iran-move-on-golan-heights.html



Since anti-Assad rebels gained ground in the Golan last year, Israel has developed a cautious relationship with some moderate factions. In October, Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon told Israel’s Haaretz newspaper that Israel was providing humanitarian assistance to some rebel groups “on condition they don’t allow the more extremist organizations to reach the border.”

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
My climbing days are pretty much behind me. My body is falling apart from all the crazy ass shet I did for over 30 years, literally and let me tell ya, it sucks bigtime.

Sorry to hear that. Seriously.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 20, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
That's for keeping us posted on what's going 'round on the far right extremists blogs, TGT.
That's from Ted Nugents website, right?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 20, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
Latest score:

The Cheif 101
Everybody else 318-101 = 217

What is the Las Vegas line on termination before it reaches 500?
thebravecowboy

climber
On this ride, I'm cptn; My pals call me Shackleton
Feb 20, 2015 - 06:05pm PT
I find it tasteless to lampoon the fiery death of Muath al-Kaseasbah. That was a human being. A living person burned alive.

But well, this is the internet, so let's start making some Holocaust jokes.
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
I find it tasteless to lampoon the fiery death of Muath al-Kaseasbah. That was a human being. A living person burned alive.

Yes so true. ^^^^

Whether it was real or faked I felt extreme horrible sadness.
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 06:22pm PT
matth3w

You should not mind "The Chief"

He's a good man.

He is the way he is.

When without him many would have nothing to get upset about.

Then you will all have internal built up rage and will be releasing that rage going postal in the supermarket.

You will be throwing the fruits and vegetables at the customers.

The police will come and take all of you away.

You will never be able post here again.

The Chief is saving your life ......
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 20, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
What Werner said. And what someone else said, on the previous page.

"The Chief" was a Chief Petty Officer in the US Navy. Which means he was a professional pit bull. You don't get that job unless you are genetically incapable of giving up or giving in. Arguing with him is pointless.

You can call him an as#@&%e if you want, but what you have to remember is that a CPO has to be an as#@&%e. It's a requirement of the job.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 20, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
I find it tasteless to lampoon the fiery death of Muath al-Kaseasbah. That was a human being. A living person burned alive.

So are the ISIS fighters we are exploding every day. Very very wrong ones in my mind, but still humans.

War sucks. There is no such thing as clean, tidy, surgical, over the horizon bullshit like fatty always used to spew.

This is likely to get much uglier before it gets better. Get used to it.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 20, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
Thanks The Chief for saving us all...!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 20, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
The only one being lampooned was the selfie in chief.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 20, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
I felt the urge to throw veggies and fruit in vons...then i went to a happier place..White Mt. Estates..and i thought about the Chief...Thanks Gunny...rj
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 20, 2015 - 07:27pm PT
Not to demean the U.S. Postal Service, but take a few minutes and compile your most likely (among ST posters, but shit!! consider the universe if you want) to go postal list.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 20, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
The Chief...That looked like a pirated film from Susanville losers night...Just admit it..It's Anita the birthday girl , that wants me...Not you...Pathetic loser...!!
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2015 - 08:57pm PT
Google Jürgen Todenhöfer

https://www.google.com/search?q=J%C3%BCrgen+Todenh%C3%B6fer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Todenhöfer then said that he has seen many wars and IS is "the strongest group I ever met.

Very strong, very clever, very enthusiastic.

They are extremely brutal. Not just head-cutting.

I'm talking about the strategy of religious cleansing.

That's their official philosophy.

They are talking about 500 million people who have to die."
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 07:27am PT
Ignorance...the goal of ISIS to lure the U.S. into a quagmire in the Mideast....exemplified here:


Feb 19, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
Well the president seems to be smoking some cheap crack theses days with his battle plan for issis being "social reforms and programs".. Isnt that the very things issis hates? I mean,, do you think they are concerned about social programs other that the training of the next generations of fighters? Is there any one home in the white house that still has a functioning brain?

The Chief
climber
RFLMAO here on the Taco

Feb 19, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
Ron, Left Winger SOCIALISM.

That is their answer for everything.... Gov't run/sponsored Programs. Don't be surprised if this afternoon after the table gahering with all them coalition members, the White House announces that one of the primary entities they are bringing to the table tomorrow is to offer all them ISIS dudes Labor Union Jobs clearing up the streets of NY, Boston and Detroit of all the record amounts of snow.

The American Far-Right knows no answer but war. Obviously, this isn't what the President said. No matter, the ultra-conservative extremists hear what they want to hear.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 07:45am PT
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 21, 2015 - 07:48am PT
U.S. and Iraqi forces are planning to launch an offensive this spring designed to repel Islamic militants from the northern city of Mosul, a military official said.

There goes the surprise.

Maybe they should send ISIS a "Don't Forget The Date" card.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 07:49am PT
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 21, 2015 - 08:28am PT
There goes the surprise.

Please. As if the big build up to the first gulf war was a big surprise to Saddam. Or the second gulf war. Or D-Day or Okinawa for that matter.

A single building can be attacked with surprise, not a city of 2 million people that requires 30,000 troops to take.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 21, 2015 - 09:14am PT
Bush nailed it.
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
bwahahahaha!

But yeah as much as it pains me to say....Bush's speech writer nailed it
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
The whole Bush clan is criminal from the start.

They should all be put in jail.

Stupid Americans put these criminals in leadership of their wonderful country.

How stupid can you ever get ......
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
^^agreed. Talk about impersonalists!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 21, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
The Bush legacy in the Mid- East:

George Sr.:

 Had no problem supplying Saddam Hussein with chemicals to manufacture WMDs.

 With April Glaspie as his conduit, suckers Hussein into invading Kuwait. The probable reason for this action was because Sadaam threatened to demand payment for Iraqi oil in Euros instead of U.S. Dollars

 After killing countless Iraqi conscripts (largely composed of Hussein's political foes) and leaving Sadaam's fanatically loyal and elite Republican Guards unscathed, tells the Iraqi Kurds (and other opposition groups) that the U.S. would support a revolt by them to overthrow the Hussein regime.

-The Iraqi Kurds and other groups rise in revolt. George Sr. stands aside and doesn't lift a finger to help these people as they are massacred by Hussein.

Boy George (AKA Dubya Bush):

 On the basis of absolutely no credible evidence of massive quantities of WMD stockpiles in Iraq, and an even more ridiculous accusation of a connection between Sadaam Hussein and Al Queda, proceeds to COMPLETELY destroy the infrastructure of that nation, needlessly killing uncounted thousands of Iraqi men, women, and children in the process - not to mention thousands of members of the U.S. armed forces.

-At the same time he funnels uncounted (and un-audited) billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars into the coffers of private "contractors" with direct connections to his administration.

-The U.S. leaves Iraq in ruins.



WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
The Islamic State is not only protected by the US and its allies, it is trained and financed by US-NATO, with the support of Israel and Washington’s Persian Gulf allies.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 03:27pm PT
Stewart is spot on. GW started the mess, he doesn't get credit for anything after that. Like an arsonist calling in a fire.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 21, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
Ron: If you actually knew the history, Al Queda in Iraq wasn't a threat until the U.S. destroyed the place - Hussein, for all of his faults was no friend of Al Queda.

The only real reason that your appallingly corrupt weasel of a "President" wanted to stay in Iraq was because he and his administration were making a bundle out of that war. The invasion of Iraq was nothing more than a sleazy, cynical cash grab and a disgrace to the honour of the United States.
thebravecowboy

climber
my pals call me Shackleton
Feb 21, 2015 - 03:45pm PT
calling a spade a spade does not make W a prescient man, Ron.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 21, 2015 - 05:18pm PT
Ron: No, it was the Bush family's needless destruction of Iraq that started this whole nightmare - everything that followed was as a result of this cynical cash grab. Dubya, his father and their buddies are a disgrace not only to the U.S., but to the entire human species.

As for your comment about U.S. occupations from WW II & onwards still being in place - what are you actually trying to say about that? Would the U.S. be grateful to have foreign troops permanently based there for ANY reason?

Cragman: And the U.S. getting rid of that corrupt weasel Dubya Bush and his buddies was an even better thing. The U.S. has more WMDs than the rest of the planet, and Rumsfeld was talking about using nukes on the battlefield in case you have forgotten.

Do something useful with your life, Cragman - learn something about common decency and critical thought - It might help you become a become a better human being and, by the way, I certainly don't need you to tell me that ISIS is extremely bad news.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 21, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
I think you fellas need to see Smerconish's comments on Obama. Yes, he's a Republican.

You called him a Charlatan Dean? And I've seen you call him worse.


http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/02/21/smerconish-commentary-02212015.cnn
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
It shows that GW actually didn't listen to the truth....respected the criminals.....and knew how to lie and cover it all up.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 21, 2015 - 06:12pm PT
I debated only the fact that it wasn't BUsh's plan to withdraw from Iraq that soon.

Wasnt it Bush that ordered and signed a bill saying we would pull out in 2010, and Obama followed through with?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 21, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
Bush is a war criminal in Spain and was going to be arrested if he set foot inside Spains borders...he was also responsible for the death of 3,000 innocent Americans because he was too arrogant to heed warnings about Saudis crashing airliners into American buildings...The war President who went awol in the National Guard...Oh , and should we mention the surplus he squandered...?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Feb 21, 2015 - 06:23pm PT

Wasn't it Bush that ordered and signed a bill saying we would pull out in 2010, and Obama followed through with?


that is correct

President Bush signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Iraqi President which set the time table for the removal of all US combat troops

of course this is easy to look up to verify, anyone can do a search in seconds
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 21, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
RIP Malcom X (2-21-1965) American Boy Scout

"To do the right thing at the right moment" can be extreme:
"Where a man has gone so far as to attempt suicide, a Scout should know what to do with him."
"BE PREPARED to die for your country if need be, so that when the moment arrives you may charge home with confidence, not caring whether you are going to be killed or not

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 21, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
Back in 2007, President Bush warned against leaving Iraq to soon, predicting negative consequences for doing so.

Obama ran for President, well aware of the Middle East mess that came with the job.

He did exactly what Bush warned against.

Bush's predictions have come true, in spades.

Even though Obama has been in office for seven years, many of you want to pin all the blame on Bush.

Brilliant.

I'm not defending Bush's actions. His poorly considered military policy will be one for the history books. His blunder will be most significant aspect of his presidency.

But none of that matters when we look at what Obama did (or didn't do), allowing the situation to evolve as it has.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 21, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
Ron: Nice try - that's not leadership. Occupying nations at gunpoint is called imperialism, not freedom.

By the way, if you took the trouble to think about my question regarding foreign military troops being based in the U.S., you just might have been able to figure out why people in other nations don't necessarily welcome occupying U.S. forces with open arms.

And please spare me the bit about citizens lurking behind the grass with their assault weapons in the name of "freedom" - those things get used more often by civilians in places like Sandy Hook instead of the defence of any rational concept of liberty. Join the U.S. Army or the National Guard if you're so goddamn eager to demonstrate your patriotism.

Edward T: The avalanche of atrocities that the Bush family and their co-defendants unleashed in the Mid-East simply aren't easily fixed, and throwing guns at the mess isn't necessarily a good idea. As I stated earlier, the Bush family didn't have the slightest problem with Sadaam Hussein manufacturing WMDs to use against his own people as long as he was an enemy of Iran and continued to supply the U.S. with cheap oil. Whether you like it or not, there's a lot of people in the Mid-East who have good reason to be pissed off with the U.S.

Perhaps if you guys were a little bit quicker with the foreign aid and slower with the carpet bombing, things just might have turned out differently.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 21, 2015 - 06:42pm PT
I dreamed I saw St. Augustine, alive as you or me

With a blanket underneath his arm and a coat of solid gold

Searching for the very souls whom already have been sold

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 21, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
Well obviously all those hankerchiefhead (no disrespect The), camel jockies need to be bombed back to the Stoneage. Hope no Jews get hit.

-General WasteMoreLand


zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 21, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
Well that's wonderful, Z Brown but Malcolm X was no sentimentalist.

You knew him?

How about Dick Cheney and Robert McNamara?
What in fact is the latest body count in Irag?

Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 21, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
Chief: Yeah - you got me. We're the guys who almost single-handedly destroyed the Mid-East and started this whole nightmare, and our leaders made a fortune from our war crime.

By the way, the story we are told is that Canadian troops aren't supposed to be in the front lines in the first place, the number you have quoted is for ALL military personnel, the majority of whom are support troops for our air contingent, and we are told that the rules of engagement for our few special forces are to only fire back when attacked. Also, reasonable Canadians (the majority) have no problem agreeing that our Prime Minister is a complete arsehole.

Ron: What on earth makes you think that my comments about your inability to comprehend that citizens of other nations have the same rights to resent foreign troops occupying THEIR nation is any different than your bombastic attempt to insinuate that the U.S. is the only nation on the planet with a right to patriotism?

No, I haven't killed anyone and certainly don't intend to start now. I might change my mind, however, if my nation was attacked by a foreign power.

You need to develop a thicker skin, Ron - or at least think first before you flip out.



WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
Stewart -- "Ron - or at least think first before you flip out."


SuperTopo forum is NOT a thinking forum.

It's a posting forum.

We have free will to not think and only post.

When our American criminal leaders start thinking then we will stop posting and start thinking ....
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 21, 2015 - 08:32pm PT
This site full of clueless asshats. Biggest shitshow on the Internet this.

Ah, a noble man of God, a lion among sheep. Sleep well.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 21, 2015 - 08:33pm PT
Ron: If you say so. Wouldn't you agree that people just might not be so eager to kill each other if they only had clubs to use?

Chief. Give me a break... the mess in the Mid-East goes back to the Crusades. This is extremely complex business and, as I've said before on other subjects, academics spend their entire careers arguing about the details, so I'll admittedly over-simplify some stuff:

-Yeah - Canada was involved in Afghanistan and has a small military presence in Iraq. ISIS and the Taliban are bad news.

-The U.S. helped many twisted monsters gain power during the early '50s - one of them was the Shah of Iran, and he terrorized his subjects mercilessly while plundering his nation's treasury. Perfectly justifiably, there was a revolution in the '80s that was hijacked by Islamic fundamentalists who, not surprisingly had no love for the U.S. This led to the takeover of the U.S. Embassy and the hostage crisis. Needless to say, the U.S. was outraged, and remains so to this very day.

-The U.S. allied itself with Sadaam Hussein and supported him in his war against Iran and his own people.

-The Soviets invaded Afghanistan and the U.S. supplied the future Taliban with sophisticated weapons to resist the invasion, and the Soviets eventually left the country leaving behind a devastated nation and an estimated 1,000,000 dead Afghanis behind out of a population of 20(?) million. Instead of rewarding the Afghanis for fighting a proxy war for the U.S. against the Soviet Union, not one cent of foreign aid was provided to Afghanistan. This did nothing to prevent the rise of the Taliban.

-There was a major oil field located inside Kuwait near the disputed border with Iraq. Hussein asked April Glaspie, the U.S. representative in the region, if there was likely to be a problem if Iraq invaded Kuwait to take possession of this resource.

-Upon being assured that the U.S. had no interest in this matter, Hussein took the bait and invaded Kuwait. This led to the first U.S. war with Iraq, which resulted mainly in the death of thousands upon thousands of Iraqi conscripts and who know how many civilians. Sadaam's elite Republican Guard survived unscathed.

-The Kurds and other minorities were assured of U.S. aid by Bush Sr. if they mounted a revolt against Hussein. These poor fools actually believed that Bush Sr. had integrity and were massacred for their trust. Not a single atom of support from the U.S. materialized.

-After stealing the election from Gore, Dubya Bush and his co-defendants decided that Iraq was ripe for the plucking and orchestrated a hysteria campaign about non-existent mountains of WMDs.

-Iraq is blasted into the stone age and plundered. Over 100,000 Iraqi civilians die. Meanwhile, thousands of U.S. servicemen (and women) are killed or wounded, while private "contractors" with direct connections to the Bush presidency are provided with hundreds of billions of un-audited taxpayer dollars to serve alongside U.S. troops at a higher rate of pay for identical services.

-And now we have ISIS while fools like Chief babble platitudes.

Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 21, 2015 - 08:56pm PT
bvb: Devastating display of deep thought.

By the way, I believe you meant to say "generic politard thread IS a joke", but I'm willing to defer to your clearly superior intellect if I'm mistaken.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 21, 2015 - 09:06pm PT

Feb 21, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
It shows that GW actually LISTENED to his advisors....respected their professionalism.....and knew how to lead.

Quite the opposite of the charlatan currently residing in the White House.

Wow. That someone could believe this. The power of Fox. Incredible. And sad.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 21, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
bvb: Wow. I guess they must have missed when they performed the lobotomy.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 21, 2015 - 10:28pm PT
bvb: Now I get it. Tourette's, right?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 21, 2015 - 10:46pm PT
Cragman your crowing serves as a constant reminder.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2015 - 11:21pm PT
are you recruiting?

is this where one signs up
WBraun

climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 07:50am PT
Ooooohrrrraaahhhh I've been converted!!!!

When do I receive my genuine authorized and authentic bvb suspenders for the cult of bvb (bullsh!t vs bullsh!t).....
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 07:59am PT

F*#k the Bush dynasty. There is no there, there.

Let's assume it's Bush v Clinton in '16. You'll have plenty of time to denounce American dynasties. With good reason, although, I think Hillary will be a good president.
And this Bush is a better Bush...but not my cup of tea.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 22, 2015 - 08:31am PT
The man in the leather jacket is facing Mecca not Black Falls proving seal team six never got Osama..Isis is a smoke screen to take our feeble minds off of Al Qaudea , an Obama sponsored terror project...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 22, 2015 - 09:17am PT
The ignorance here is astounding at times.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 22, 2015 - 09:27am PT
feel free to astound us with your superior intellect(s) Sketch

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Feb 22, 2015 - 10:10am PT
Yes yes it's me see me hear me I want to play but to st00Pid ami
Am I wrong inthe most
Dharma can way
USA THE BiG BOMB ooh a honest slip usE the bomb!💀
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Feb 22, 2015 - 10:13am PT
Tttgg
To tragic to go google!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 22, 2015 - 10:34am PT
Bob Laden..What about the virgins..?
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Feb 22, 2015 - 10:57am PT
^^^^^^
Uh oh, someone released the Cracken . . .

BTW:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 22, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/168527-damascus-dubs-turkish-incursion-flagrant-aggression
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 22, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
Thanks Osama Bob...I may opt out and join Locker with Crack Annie..alah akbar my friend..!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 22, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
Hey Chief: As far as I can tell, I've never posted a single statement of claimed fact on this or any other thread that can't be verified by objective critics.

Admittedly, my opinions can get hostile at times, but I guess it's as a result of realizing that sparrowfarts like you are incapable of removing their heads from their asses long enough to check out any other news source than Fox news for instruction on how to do do whatever you do that passes for thinking.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 22, 2015 - 02:00pm PT
Chief: I can only stand in respectful awe in deference to your superior intellect and your reasoned response to my post.

crankster

Trad climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
A+ on this thread, Stu.
WBraun

climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
All in all, it looks like a pretty shrewd move by Russia.

Obama now has 120 days to report back how he plans to sanction US allies Turkey and Israel – or face a UN Security Council resolution calling for sanctions on the US.

While the US would surely veto such a resolution, it provides an excellent opportunity for Russia to embarrass Obama and Israel by exposing their financial and military ties to ISIS.

Read it and weep

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/02/22/obama-forced-to-address-israels-oil-smuggling/

Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 22, 2015 - 02:21pm PT
Crankster: Thanks. Go forth and prosper, and good luck with your next Presidential election. It would be a global catastrophe for a nation as powerful as yours to pollute the White House with a candidate who caters to the kind of vicious dimwit so depressingly represented by the Chiefs of your electorate.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
Lot of em here, Stewart. As wacked as he sounds, he's got a lot of company.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 22, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.

Feb 22, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
Hey Chief: As far as I can tell, I've never posted a single statement of claimed fact on this or any other thread that can't be verified by objective critics.

You said the only real reason Bush wanted to stay in Iraq was because he was making a bundle out of that war.

Pure fiction.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
Whine and win presidential elections.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 22, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
EdwardT; I said Bush and his buddies made a bundle - unfortunately, I don't have access to Dubya's tax return, but if I had control of corruption investigations relating to the complete destruction of Iraq, I'd certainly be putting Haliburton and Blackwater at or near the top of the list. What I can tell you as an indisputable fact is that there is a direct connection between the Bush family and the Bin Ladens - who were the only civilians allowed into airliners in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

bvd: The kindest thing I can think of saying about you is that on your best day you're pathetic little worm.

Chief: I believe that most objective commentators on the behaviour of the U.S. electorate would agree that many progressives were plunged into a state of despair as they realized that Obama either couldn't or wouldn't deliver on the promises he made when he was first elected.

Maybe, maybe not. I doubt whether it would be worth my trouble attempt to offer you a better answer. My feeling is that an alarming percentage of the U.S. was so traumatized by the events of 9/11 that they have become vulnerable to a cynical exploitation of their fears by the Republicans and their even more odious Tea Bag mutant offspring.

Spare me your ignorance about Canadian politics - our constipated sociopath of a Prime Minister led a minority government. Twice. This means that he had fewer seats than opposition parties who could have, but didn't, boot him out on his pudgy ass any time that the wanted to. For reasons that escape me, the electorate tends to get really pissed off when this happens, so the Opposition had to content itself with forcing that contemptible toad to moderate some of his more lunatic legislation.

Most recently, this shithead indeed did win a majority of seats, but due to a built-in flaw in the Canadian political system he received a minority of the popular vote.

Don't waste keystrokes trumpeting the electoral successes of your political masters - HITLER was elected.

Chief, it sickens me to see the kind of crap you're peddling here. You are nothing more than one of many maggots feeding on the corpse of all that is good and decent in the United States of America.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 22, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
Stewart
++++1000
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 22, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
EdwardT; I said Bush and his buddies made a bundle - unfortunately, I don't have access to Dubya's tax return, but if I had control of corruption investigations relating to the complete destruction of Iraq, I'd certainly be putting Haliburton and Blackwater at or near the top of the list. What I can tell you as an indisputable fact is that there is a direct connection between the Bush family and the Bin Ladens - who were the only civilians allowed into airliners in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

You said the only real reason Bush wanted to stay in Iraq was because he was making a bundle out of that war.

You've provided nothing to back it up.

Pure fiction.
peladob

Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
Feb 22, 2015 - 05:47pm PT
King Phillip came over for good soup....

Personally, we need to match up the guy looking for a war with a war that needs to be fought: I vote for Putin to take over cleaning up the Middle East (and getting all the ISIS waywards jobs....cause that's what they need).
peladob

Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
Feb 22, 2015 - 05:56pm PT
Yer cat does what? To whom?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 22, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
EdwardT: Tell you what - I'll retract my statement when you provide me with verifiable information on where those hundreds of billions of UNAUDITED taxpayer dollars spent in Iraq got spent. The justification offered by the White House for the invasion of Iraq doesn't even come close to passing the sniff test - Dubya Bush is genetically and intellectually incapable of acting altruistically.

How about you offering some indisputable facts to support your ignorant abuse for once?

Chief, you are incapable of recognizing verifiable fact and I stand by my comments. You have offered absolutely nothing in the way of verifiable facts to refute them. Your opinions are of no interest to me.

You're still a maggot. That's an opinion, by the way.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 06:38pm PT
Let me just interject that the Chief and facts aren't exactly in alliance.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 22, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
Hey Chief: You deleted your insulting post. Too bad you weren't man enough to apologize for being verifiably wrong.

Now, can we get back to what this thread is supposed to be about, which is ISIS?
peladob

Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
Feb 22, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
I just love seeing people with panties in a bunch over Chief.

Do any of you with all yer internetz powerz think you actually are going to change his mind or his way of thinking?

Look over his stuff or engage his thought process.

Stop yer bitchin in any case.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 22, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
Stewart

EdwardT: Tell you what - I'll retract my statement when you provide me with verifiable information on where those hundreds of billions of UNAUDITED taxpayer dollars spent in Iraq got spent. The justification offered by the White House for the invasion of Iraq doesn't even come close to passing the sniff test - Dubya Bush is genetically and intellectually incapable of acting altruistically.

How about you offering some indisputable facts to support your ignorant abuse for once?

You boast about the accuracy of your claims. I point out a recent example of you making a bogus claim. Your response it to amp up your offensive.

Doood.... You are too funny.

Now, we're on to "hundreds of billions of UNAUDITED taxpayer dollars".

You just keep 'em coming. I'll keep cracking up.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 22, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
Don't fret, TGT, sooner or later a white guy will be President again.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 22, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
Number of f*#ks given:

Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 22, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
EdwardT: Don't use your ideology to pretend that with billions of dollars to play with, fortunes aren't easily hidden from taxpayer scrutiny. I'll retract my statement with a sincere apology when you provide me with an audited accounting for all expenditures from the Iraq war.

Can't do it, eh? I didn't think so. I stand by my allegations, you twisted weasel.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 22, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
Pentacostal: SH#T! Those f*#kers BITE!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 22, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
TGT...RPG...LMAO....
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 22, 2015 - 09:37pm PT
Hey Chief: Why don't you ask me about the White House (especially Cheney's) direct connection to Haliburton... and Blackwater, for that matter?

No - wait a minute... how about everyone hopping onto the net so you can judge for yourselves the ethics of the Dubya Bush Presidency.

I again repeat that this is supposed to be a thread about ISIS - not about EdwardT and Chief's passionate lust for Dubya.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 22, 2015 - 09:45pm PT
On the left, we have the tards with their itty bitty little passionate shoutfest of a deadthread.

On the right, there is the rest of us.

Poseurs. Crossfire you are not.

WBraun

climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 09:55pm PT
Dig this sh!t

The American suspender legend is on the warpath/warp-path to terrorize the politards

LOL ....
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 22, 2015 - 10:17pm PT
WORD OF THE DAY:

sonder:
n. the realization that each random passerby is living a life as vivid and complex as your own—populated with their own ambitions, friends, routines, worries and inherited craziness—an epic story that continues invisibly around you like an anthill sprawling deep underground, with elaborate passageways to thousands of other lives that you’ll never know existed, in which you might appear only once, as an extra sipping coffee in the background, as a blur of traffic passing on the highway, as a lighted window at dusk.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
Pow! Mind blown.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 23, 2015 - 09:31am PT
"our answers are so self-evidently correct that the other side’s failure to embrace them constitutes a kind of psychological disorder or a medical condition."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 23, 2015 - 09:45am PT
This one is pretty easy...



Note that even if you don't use these terms in public, because you know your audience isn't familiar with them or for some reason isn't going to appreciate them, you can still use them in your own mental life - as your own mental tools - to help clarify your own thinking - as you try to cut through all this mess relating to ISIS.

.....

The "Voldemort Effect" is a worthwhile phenomenon / principle to research.

Relates not only to ISIS but to supertopo!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 23, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
All those "moderates"

Showed up at the funeral.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 23, 2015 - 05:57pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 23, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 23, 2015 - 06:57pm PT
This, you should read.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/23/isis-used-a-u-s-prison-as-boot-camp.html

In ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror, American journalist Michael Weiss and Syrian analyst Hassan Hassan explain how these violent extremists evolved from a nearly defeated Iraqi insurgent group into a jihadi army of international volunteers who behead Western hostages in slickly produced videos and have conquered territory equal to the size of Great Britain. Beginning with the early days of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the founder of ISIS’s first incarnation as “al Qaeda in Iraq,” Weiss and Hassan explain who the key players are—from their elusive leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to the former Saddam Baathists in their ranks—where they come from, how the movement has attracted both local and global support, and where their financing comes from.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 24, 2015 - 03:25am PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 24, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
So does this ISIS development change anyone's mind in regard to...

Nukes in Iran?


Some of you may have invested the time and read that Atlantic piece...

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

For an interesting counterpoint... from the gang who brought you Edward Snowden...

The Atlantic Ignores Muslim Intellectuals, Defines “True Islam” As ISIS

http://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/20/atlantic-defines-real-islam-says-isis/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 24, 2015 - 04:34pm PT
From Reuters:

The cracks in Islamic State’s business plan are starting to show
By Ora Szekely

February 20, 2015

Over the last year, Islamic State has presented the rest of the world with a steady stream of atrocities: An attempted genocide against the Yazidi people in Iraq, massacres and bombings of Shi’ite civilians in Syria, and gruesome executions of journalists and aid workers. Last week the militant group murdered — via mass beheading – 21 Coptic Christian Egyptians in Libya. But despite the bravado of Islamic State’s public statements, the Islamist militant group increasingly appears to have painted itself into a strategic corner.

Islamic State’s expansion so far has been based heavily on extortion and theft. Using revenue from the oil wells it captured in eastern Syria in June 2014, along with money raised by looting in Mosul, supplemented by funding from ransoms paid by governments for its hostages, Islamic State was able to hire lots of fighters very quickly by paying top salaries. But revenues from the oil wells have dropped (due both to U.S. bombing and falling global oil prices), and with the tragic death of American aid worker Kayla Mueller earlier this month, Islamic State has executed what is likely its last foreign hostage, potentially eliminating a key source of its funding.

The result may be that Islamic State has reached an important crossroads. The strategy that it has relied on so far to fuel its expansion is becoming increasingly untenable. If Islamic State is going to hold on to its recent gains, it has some policy changes to make.

All militant groups need a range of resources — from guns and money to recruits and political legitimacy — to accomplish their goals. Broadly speaking, the strategies they use to acquire these resources fall into three categories: theft, barter, or gift. Some militias steal what they need, looting farmers’ crops or kidnapping journalists for ransom. Others rely on barter, offering their services as a fighting force to a state in return for money and weapons. Groups employing the gift option try to convince both local constituents and potential state sponsors to voluntarily provide political and material support for its cause. The vast majority of militant groups use a mixture of all three approaches, though many emphasize one approach.

What’s next for Islamic State?

So far, Islamic State has mostly relied on the first approach — theft. But using this strategy will become increasingly difficult; the resources it has already stolen — oil, cash from local banks, even hostages — aren’t easily renewable. And, as the Islamic State leadership is beginning to find, brutalizing civilians makes acquiring broad local support very difficult.

Another way forward would be for Islamic State to transition to a barter strategy, acting as a mercenary force for a state sponsor that has little interest in its overall project. This kind of quid pro quo relationship led Muammar Qaddhafi’s Libya in the 1970s and 1980s, for instance, to provide funding for everyone from the Irish Republican Army (IRA) to the far-left militant Baader Meinhof group in Germany. Today, however, there are fewer and fewer of these rogue states. Islamic State has so alienated most potentially supportive governments in the region that even those opposed to the regime of Bashar al-Assad in Syria — like Jordan and Turkey — are unlikely to view Islamic State as a reliable partner.

Finally, Islamic State could shift to a strategy based on a gift approach, by trying to build domestic and international support for their political project. To a degree, Islamic State already appears to be trying to do so. The movement’s massive public relations campaign on social media has attracted some funding from sympathetic individual donors in Qatar and Kuwait, but these donations represent a relatively insignificant part of their revenue, and few regional governments appear interested in backing Islamic State, for either power or purely ideological reasons. Iran and Syria (which have supported other militant groups in the past) are openly hostile to Islamic State, and the Gulf monarchies feel threatened by Islamic State’s (ludicrous) claims to have reestablished the caliphate, which challenges the legitimacy of their own regimes.

For a gift strategy to work, Islamic State would need to focus inward. This would mean appealing to the local population in the territory it occupies through improved governance and by softening its authoritarian rule, while simultaneously courting regional allies. This would require limiting its expansionist ambitions, toning down its inflammatory rhetoric, and reframing its core mission to appear less threatening to states like Saudi Arabia. In other words, it would have to become a radically different kind of entity than it is now.

Whether Islamic State is willing or able to do any of these things remains unclear. Militant groups have successfully reinvented themselves before. Hezbollah and Hamas both enacted internal reforms in the 1990s and 2000s respectively to better attract support both locally and from powerful patron states. Both of these organizations, however, had fairly rational leadership and a degree of internal cohesion that Islamic State has not yet exhibited.

This is partly a side-effect of Islamic State’s rapid expansion; in a relatively short time period it has had to absorb former Baathists, disaffected members of al Qaeda, random thugs, and rebellious European teenagers, none of whom may be interested in curbing their abusive treatment of civilians or moderating their ideology to appear less threatening to neighboring states and achieve longer term strategic goals.

If Islamic State’ leadership is unwilling, or unable, to make these necessary policy changes it may well continue to resort to the violence and extortion it is familiar with, but with ever-diminishing returns.



Ora Szekely is an assistant professor of political science at Clark University in Worcester, MA. Her research focuses on the foreign and domestic policy choices of militant groups in the Middle East.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/02/20/the-cracks-in-islamic-states-business-plan-are-starting-to-show/
WBraun

climber
Feb 24, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
Uk just got caught red handed supplying ISIS .

Everyone but stupid Americans know that the western coalition is supplying them.

You people just keep on getting 0wned day after day.

Dumber than the sack o rocks you climb on .....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 24, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
You've been listening to too much Alex Jones bro.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 24, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
And yet you continue to bump the thread bVD.

OT threads have been here since the beginning and now you're gonna go on a one man crusade? That sounds like a recipe for not much.

Why don't YOU take it to PM? Then you can talk about your suspenders forever!!
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 24, 2015 - 04:57pm PT

The public has grown more supportive of the U.S. fight against ISIS, as about twice as many approve (63%) as disapprove (30%) of the military campaign against the Islamic militant group in Iraq and Syria. Last October, 57% approved and 33% disapproved.

The possibility of sending U.S. ground troops to the region is more divisive, although the idea draws more support than it did four months ago. Currently, about as many favor (47%) as oppose (49%) sending U.S. ground troops to fight Islamic militants in Iraq and Syria; in October, 39% favored the idea and 55% opposed it.

The new national survey by the Pew Research Center, conducted Feb. 18-22 among 1,504 adults, also finds a shift over the past year in public attitudes about the best approach for dealing with global terrorism.

In the new survey, 47% say “using overwhelming military force is the best way to defeat terrorism around the world.” About as many (46%) say that “relying too much on military force to defeat terrorism creates hatred that leads to more terrorism.”

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 1, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
Please provide a link for our donations
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 1, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
TGT always keeps us informed on what's going on in the wingnutosphere.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Mar 4, 2015 - 02:25pm PT
I've been saying this for a long time, glad to see that others see it too.

http://bluenationreview.com/catholic-cardinal-yes-can-compare-christian-extremists-isis/

Catholic Cardinal: ‘Yes, You Can Compare Christian Extremists to ISIS’

Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the archbishop of New York, affirmed the old adage about broken clocks being right twice a day when he echoed Barack Obama’s sentiment that just as ISIS has distorted Islam, Christians have also seen their religion used to justify horrible things.

Speaking to Chris Cuomo on CNN, Dolan said that ISIS extremists do not represent “genuine Islamic thought:”

“Even the majority of temperate, peace-loving Muslims would say, ‘I’m afraid they have a particular strand of erroneous Islam.’ But I do think they are. They are distorting it.”

Dolan went on to say, “these are not real Muslims.”

At the National Prayer Breakfast, the president discouraged Christians from getting on a “high horse” and conflating ISIS with Islam because Christianity was at one point used to justify, among other things, the Crusades and slavery.

I’ve written before on why I’m afraid of Christian extremists. Mostly it’s because Christian extremists in the United States aren’t labeled as radical. More often than not, they are given a title and allowed to make laws.

But ultimately, like Hitler and the Nazis, ISIS comparisons don’t accomplish much and should probably be stopped. Remember when someone on CNN asked if Ebola was, “the ISIS of biological agents?”

It comes down to this: every religion can be perverted and warped into something evil and can be used to justify evil.

Cardinal Dolan would know. He uses his Catholicism to staunchly oppose LGBT civil rights




bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 4, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
don't even think of it. there are already numerous venues for internet heroism. take it to a pm.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:39am PT
F*#k ISIS


F*#k religion



http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/03/06/dnt-damon-isis-gay-executions-new.cnn
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:02am PT
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:43am PT
Internet censorship
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Internet
Visualization of Internet routing paths
An Opte Project visualization of routing paths through a portion of the Internet
General[show]
Governance[show]
Information infrastructure[show]
Services[show]
Guides[show]
Portal icon Internet portal
v t e
Internet censorship is the control or suppression of what can be accessed, published, or viewed on the Internet. It may be carried out by governments or by private organizations at the behest of government, regulators, or on their own initiative. Individuals and organizations may engage in self-censorship for moral, religious, or business reasons, to conform to societal norms, due to intimidation, or out of fear of legal or other consequences.[1]

The extent of Internet censorship varies on a country-to-country basis. While most democratic countries have moderate Internet censorship, other countries go as far as to limit the access of information such as news and suppress discussion among citizens.[1] Internet censorship also occurs in response to or in anticipation of events such as elections, protests, and riots. An example is the increased censorship due to the events of the Arab Spring. Other areas of censorship includes copyrights, defamation, harassment, and obscene material.

Support for and opposition to Internet censorship also varies. In a 2012 Internet Society survey 71% of respondents agreed that "censorship should exist in some form on the Internet". In the same survey 83% agreed that "access to the Internet should be considered a basic human right" and 86% agreed that "freedom of expression should be guaranteed on the Internet". According to GlobalWebIndex, over 400 million people use virtual private networks to circumvent censorship or for increased level of privacy.[2]

Contents [hide]
1 Overview
2 Content suppression methods
2.1 Technical censorship
2.1.1 Approaches
2.1.2 Over- and under-blocking
2.1.3 Use of commercial filtering software
2.2 Non-technical censorship
2.3 Major web portal official statements on site and content removal
3 Circumvention
4 Common targets
4.1 Politics and power
4.2 Social norms and morals
4.3 Security concerns
4.4 Protection of existing economic interests and copyright
4.5 Network tools
4.6 Information about individuals
5 Around the world
5.1 Reports, ratings, and trends
5.1.1 OpenNet Initiative reports
5.1.2 Freedom on the Net reports
5.1.3 Reporters Without Borders (RWB)
5.1.3.1 RWB "Internet enemies" and "countries under surveillance" lists
5.1.3.2 RWB Special report on Internet Surveillance
5.1.4 BBC World Service global public opinion poll
5.1.5 Internet Society's Global Internet User Survey
5.2 Transparency of filtering or blocking activities
5.3 Arab Spring
6 See also
7 References
8 External links
§Overview[edit]
Many of the issues associated with Internet censorship are similar to those for offline censorship of more traditional media such as newspapers, magazines, books, music, radio, television, and film. One difference is that national borders are more permeable online: residents of a country that bans certain information can find it on websites hosted outside the country. Thus censors must work to prevent access to information even though they lack physical or legal control over the websites themselves. This in turn requires the use of technical censorship methods that are unique to the Internet, such as site blocking and content filtering.[3]

Views about the feasibility and effectiveness of Internet censorship have evolved in parallel with the development of the Internet and censorship technologies:

A 1993 Time Magazine article quotes computer scientist John Gilmore, one of the founders of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, as saying "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it."[4]
In November 2007, "Father of the Internet" Vint Cerf stated that he sees government control of the Internet failing because the Web is almost entirely privately owned.[5]
A report of research conducted in 2007 and published in 2009 by the Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University stated that: "We are confident that the [ censorship circumvention ] tool developers will for the most part keep ahead of the governments' blocking efforts", but also that "...we believe that less than two percent of all filtered Internet users use circumvention tools".[6]
In contrast, a 2011 report by researchers at the Oxford Internet Institute published by UNESCO concludes "... the control of information on the Internet and Web is certainly feasible, and technological advances do not therefore guarantee greater freedom of speech."[3]
Blocking and filtering can be based on relatively static blacklists or be determined more dynamically based on a real-time examination of the information being exchanged. Blacklists may be produced manually or automatically and are often not available to non-customers of the blocking software. Blocking or filtering can be done at a centralized national level, at a decentralized sub-national level, or at an institutional level, for example in libraries, universities or Internet cafes.[1] Blocking and filtering may also vary within a country across different ISPs.[7] Countries may filter sensitive content on an on-going basis and/or introduce temporary filtering during key time periods such as elections. In some cases the censoring authorities may surreptitiously block content to mislead the public into believing that censorship has not been applied. This is achieved by returning a fake "Not Found" error message when an attempt is made to access a blocked web.[8]

Unless the censor has total control over all Internet-connected computers, such as in North Korea or Cuba, total censorship of information is very difficult or impossible to achieve due to the underlying distributed technology of the Internet. Pseudonymity and data havens (such as Freenet) protect free speech using technologies that guarantee material cannot be removed and prevents the identification of authors. Technologically savvy users can often find ways to access blocked content. Nevertheless, blocking remains an effective means of limiting access to sensitive information for most users when censors, such as those in China, are able to devote significant resources to building and maintaining a comprehensive censorship system.[3]

The term "splinternet" is sometimes used to describe the effects of national firewalls. The verb "rivercrab" colloquially refers to censorship of the Internet, particularly in Asia.[9]

§Content suppression methods[edit]
§Technical censorship[edit]
§Approaches[edit]
Internet content is subject to technical censorship methods, including:[1][3][10]

Internet Protocol (IP) address blocking: Access to a certain IP address is denied. If the target Web site is hosted in a shared hosting server, all websites on the same server will be blocked. This affects IP-based protocols such as HTTP, FTP and POP. A typical circumvention method is to find proxies that have access to the target websites, but proxies may be jammed or blocked, and some Web sites, such as Wikipedia (when editing), also block proxies. Some large websites such as Google have allocated additional IP addresses to circumvent the block, but later the block was extended to cover the new addresses.
Domain name system (DNS) filtering and redirection: Blocked domain names are not resolved, or an incorrect IP address is returned via DNS hijacking or other means. This affects all IP-based protocols such as HTTP, FTP and POP. A typical circumvention method is to find an alternative DNS resolver that resolves domain names correctly, but domain name servers are subject to blockage as well, especially IP address blocking. Another workaround is to bypass DNS if the IP address is obtainable from other sources and is not itself blocked. Examples are modifying the Hosts file or typing the IP address instead of the domain name as part of a URL given to a Web browser.
Uniform Resource Locator filtering: URL strings are scanned for target keywords regardless of the domain name specified in the URL. This affects the HTTP protocol. Typical circumvention methods are to use escaped characters in the URL, or to use encrypted protocols such as VPN and TLS/SSL.[11]
Packet filtering: Terminate TCP packet transmissions when a certain number of controversial keywords are detected. This affects all TCP-based protocols such as HTTP, FTP and POP, but Search engine results pages are more likely to be censored. Typical circumvention methods are to use encrypted connections – such as VPN and TLS/SSL – to escape the HTML content, or by reducing the TCP/IP stack's MTU/MSS to reduce the amount of text contained in a given packet.
Connection reset: If a previous TCP connection is blocked by the filter, future connection attempts from both sides can also be blocked for some variable amount of time. Depending on the location of the block, other users or websites may also be blocked, if the communication is routed through the blocking location. A circumvention method is to ignore the reset packet sent by the firewall.[12]
Network disconnection: A technically simpler method of Internet censorship is to completely cut off all routers, either by software or by hardware (turning off machines, pulling out cables). This appears to have been the case on 27/28 January 2011 during the 2011 Egyptian protests, in what has been widely described as an "unprecedented" internet block.[13][14] About 3500 Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) routes to Egyptian networks were shut down from about 22:10 to 22:35 UTC 27 January.[13] This full block was implemented without cutting off major intercontinental fibre-optic links, with Renesys stating on 27 January, "Critical European-Asian fiber-optic routes through Egypt appear to be unaffected for now."[13] Full blocks also occurred in Myanmar/Burma in 2007,[15] Libya in 2011,[16] and Syria during the Syrian civil war.
Portal censorship and search result removal: Major portals, including search engines, may exclude web sites that they would ordinarily include. This renders a site invisible to people who do not know where to find it. When a major portal does this, it has a similar effect as censorship. Sometimes this exclusion is done to satisfy a legal or other requirement, other times it is purely at the discretion of the portal. For example Google.de and Google.fr remove Neo-Nazi and other listings in compliance with German and French law.[17]
Computer network attacks: Denial-of-service attacks and attacks that deface opposition websites can produce the same result as other blocking techniques, preventing or limiting access to certain websites or other online services, although only for a limited period of time. This technique might be used during the lead up to an election or some other sensitive period. It is more frequently used by non-state actors seeking to disrupt services.[18]
See also: Internet forum § Word censor and Anti-spam techniques § Detecting spam
§Over- and under-blocking[edit]
Technical censorship techniques are subject to both over- and under-blocking since it is often impossible to always block exactly the targeted content without blocking other permissible material or allowing some access to targeted material and so providing more or less protection than desired.[3] An example is that automatic censorship against sexual words in matter for children, set to block the word "cunt", has been known to block the Lincolnshire placename Scunthorpe.[19] Another example is blocking an IP-address of a server that hosts multiple websites, which prevents access to all of the websites rather than just those that contain content deemed offensive.[20]

According to a report produced in 1997 by the gay rights group GLAAD, many 1990s-era Internet censorship software products prevent access to non-pornographic LGBT-related material.[21]

§Use of commercial filtering software[edit]

Screenshot of Websense blocking Facebook in an organisation where it has been configured to block a category named "Personals and Dating"
Main article: Content-control software
Writing in 2009 Ronald Deibert, professor of political science at the University of Toronto and co-founder and one of the principal investigators of the OpenNet Initiative, and, writing in 2011, Evgeny Morzov, a visiting scholar at Stanford University and an Op-Ed contributor to the New York Times, explain that companies in the United States, Finland, France, Germany, Britain, Canada, and South Africa are in part responsible for the increasing sophistication of online content filtering worldwide. While the off-the-shelf filtering software sold by Internet security companies are primarily marketed to businesses and individuals seeking to protect themselves and their employees and families, they are also used by governments to block what they consider sensitive content.[22][23]

Among the most popular filtering software programs is SmartFilter by Secure Computing in California, which was bought by McAfee in 2008. SmartFilter has been used by Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, the UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, Iran, and Oman, as well as the United States and the UK.[24] Myanmar and Yemen have used filtering software from Websense. The Canadian-made commercial filter Netsweeper[25] is used in Qatar, the UAE, and Yemen.[26]

On 12 March 2013 in a Special report on Internet Surveillance, Reporters Without Borders named five "Corporate Enemies of the Internet": Amesys (France), Blue Coat Systems (U.S.), Gamma (UK and Germany), Hacking Team (Italy), and Trovicor (Germany). The companies sell products that are liable to be used by governments to violate human rights and freedom of information. RWB said that the list is not exhaustive and will be expanded in the coming months.[27]

In a U.S. lawsuit filed in May 2011, Cisco Systems is accused of helping the Chinese Government build a firewall, known widely as the Golden Shield, to censor the Internet and keep tabs on dissidents. Cisco said it had made nothing special for China. Cisco is also accused of aiding the Chinese government in monitoring and apprehending members of the banned Falun Gong group.[28]

Many filtering programs allow blocking to be configured based on dozens of categories and sub-categories such as these from Websense: "abortion" (pro-life, pro-choice), "adult material" (adult content, lingerie and swimsuit, nudity, sex, sex education), "advocacy groups" (sites that promote change or reform in public policy, public opinion, social practice, economic activities, and relationships), "drugs" (abused drugs, marijuana, prescribed medications, supplements and unregulated compounds), "religion" (non-traditional religions occult and folklore, traditional religions), ....[26] The blocking categories used by the filtering programs may contain errors leading to the unintended blocking of websites.[22] The blocking of DailyMotion in early 2007 by Tunisian authorities was, according to the OpenNet Initiative, due to Secure Computing wrongly categorizing DailyMotion as pornography for its SmartFilter filtering software. It was initially thought that Tunisia had blocked DailyMotion due to satirical videos about human rights violations in Tunisia, but after Secure Computing corrected the mistake access to DailyMotion was gradually restored in Tunisia.[29]

Organizations such as the Global Network Initiative, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Amnesty International, and the American Civil Liberties Union have successfully lobbied some vendors such as Websense to make changes to their software, to refrain from doing business with repressive governments, and to educate schools who have inadvertently reconfigured their filtering software too strictly.[30][31][32] Nevertheless, regulations and accountability related to the use of commercial filters and services are often non-existent, and there is relatively little oversight from civil society or other independent groups. Vendors often consider information about what sites and content is blocked valuable intellectual property that is not made available outside the company, sometimes not even to the organizations purchasing the filters. Thus by relying upon out-of-the-box filtering systems, the detailed task of deciding what is or is not acceptable speech may be outsourced to the commercial vendors.[26]

§Non-technical censorship[edit]
Main article: Censorship
Internet content is also subject to censorship methods similar to those used with more traditional media. For example:[3]

Laws and regulations may prohibit various types of content and/or require that content be removed or blocked either proactively or in response to requests.
Publishers, authors, and ISPs may receive formal and informal requests to remove, alter, slant, or block access to specific sites or content.
Publishers and authors may accept bribes to include, withdraw, or slant the information they present.
Publishers, authors, and ISPs may be subject to arrest, criminal prosecution, fines, and imprisonment.
Publishers, authors, and ISPs may be subject to civil lawsuits.
Equipment may be confiscated and/or destroyed.
Publishers and ISPs may be closed or required licenses may be withheld or revoked.
Publishers, authors, and ISPs may be subject to boycotts.
Publishers, authors, and their families may be subject to threats, attacks, beatings, and even murder.[33]
Publishers, authors, and their families may be threatened with or actually lose their jobs.
Individuals may be paid to write articles and comments in support of particular positions or attacking opposition positions, usually without acknowledging the payments to readers and viewers.[34][35]
Censors may create their own online publications and Web sites to guide online opinion.[34]
Access to the Internet may be limited due to restrictive licensing policies or high costs.
Access to the Internet may be limited due to a lack of the necessary infrastructure, deliberate or not.
§Major web portal official statements on site and content removal[edit]
See also: Terms of Service
Most major web service operators reserve to themselves broad rights to remove or pre-screen content, sometimes without giving a specific list or only a vague general list of the reasons allowing the removal. The phrases "at our sole discretion", "without prior notice", and "for other reasons" are common in Terms of Service agreements.

Facebook: Among other things the Facebook Statement of Rights and Responsibilities says: "You will not post content that: is hateful, threatening, or pornographic; incites violence; or contains nudity or graphic or gratuitous violence", "You will not use Facebook to do anything unlawful, misleading, malicious, or discriminatory", "We can remove any content or information you post on Facebook if we believe that it violates this Statement", and "If you are located in a country embargoed by the United States, or are on the U.S. Treasury Department's list of Specially Designated Nationals you will not engage in commercial activities on Facebook (such as advertising or payments) or operate a Platform application or website".[36]
Google: Google's general Terms of Service, which were updated on 1 March 2012, state: "We may suspend or stop providing our Services to you if you do not comply with our terms or policies or if we are investigating suspected misconduct", "We may review content to determine whether it is illegal or violates our policies, and we may remove or refuse to display content that we reasonably believe violates our policies or the law", and "We respond to notices of alleged copyright infringement and terminate accounts of repeat infringers according to the process set out in the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act".[37]
Google Search: Google's Webmaster Tools help includes the following statement: "Google may temporarily or permanently remove sites from its index and search results if it believes it is obligated to do so by law, if the sites do not meet Google's quality guidelines, or for other reasons, such as if the sites detract from users' ability to locate relevant information."[38]
Twitter: The Twitter Terms of Service state: "We reserve the right at all times (but will not have an obligation) to remove or refuse to distribute any Content on the Services and to terminate users or reclaim usernames" and "We reserve the right to remove Content alleged to be [copyright] infringing without prior notice and at our sole discretion".[39]
YouTube: The YouTube Terms of Service include the statements: "YouTube reserves the right to decide whether Content violates these Terms of Service for reasons other than copyright infringement, such as, but not limited to, pornography, obscenity, or excessive length. YouTube may at any time, without prior notice and in its sole discretion, remove such Content and/or terminate a user's account for submitting such material in violation of these Terms of Service", "YouTube will remove all Content if properly notified that such Content infringes on another's intellectual property rights", and "YouTube reserves the right to remove Content without prior notice".[40]

Wikipedia: Content within a Wikipedia article may be modified or deleted by any editor as part of the normal process of editing and updating articles. All editing decisions are open to discussion and review. The Wikipedia Deletion policy outlines the circumstances in which entire articles can be deleted. Any editor who believes a page doesn't belong in an encyclopedia can propose its deletion. Such a page can be deleted by any administrator if, after seven days, no one objects to the proposed deletion. Speedy deletion allows for the deletion of articles without discussion and is used to remove pages that are so obviously inappropriate for Wikipedia that they have no chance of surviving a deletion discussion. All deletion decisions may be reviewed, either informally or formally.[41] For more information see, Wikipedia:Censorship issue.
Yahoo!: Yahoo!'s Terms of Service (TOS) state: "You acknowledge that Yahoo! may or may not pre-screen Content, but that Yahoo! and its designees shall have the right (but not the obligation) in their sole discretion to pre-screen, refuse, or remove any Content that is available via the Yahoo! Services. Without limiting the foregoing, Yahoo! and its designees shall have the right to remove any Content that violates the TOS or is otherwise objectionable."[42]
§Circumvention[edit]
Main article: Internet censorship circumvention
Internet censorship circumvention is the processes used by technologically savvy Internet users to bypass the technical aspects of Internet filtering and gain access to otherwise censored material. Circumvention is an inherent problem for those wishing to censor the Internet because filtering and blocking do not remove content from the Internet, but instead block access to it. Therefore, as long as there is at least one publicly accessible uncensored system, it will often be possible to gain access to otherwise censored material. However circumvention may not be possible by non tech-savvy users, so blocking and filtering remain effective means of censoring the Internet access of large numbers of users.[3]

Different techniques and resources are used to bypass Internet censorship, including proxy websites, virtual private networks, sneakernets, and circumvention software tools. Solutions have differing ease of use, speed, security, and risks. Most, however, rely on gaining access to an Internet connection that is not subject to filtering, often in a different jurisdiction not subject to the same censorship laws. According to GlobalWebIndex, over 400 million people use virtual private networks to circumvent censorship or for increased level of privacy.[2]

There are risks to using circumvention software or other methods to bypass Internet censorship. In some countries individuals that gain access to otherwise restricted content may be violating the law and if caught can be expelled, fired, jailed, or subject to other punishments and loss of access.[1][43]

In June 2011 the New York Times reported that the U.S. is engaged in a "global effort to deploy 'shadow' Internet and mobile phone systems that dissidents can use to undermine repressive governments that seek to silence them by censoring or shutting down telecommunications networks."[44]

§Common targets[edit]
There are several motives or rationales for Internet filtering: politics and power, social norms and morals, and security concerns. Protecting existing economic interests is an additional emergent motive for Internet filtering. In addition, networking tools and applications that allow the sharing of information related to these motives are themselves subjected to filtering and blocking. And while there is considerable variation from country to country, the blocking of web sites in a local language is roughly twice that of web sites available only in English or other international languages.[8]

§Politics and power[edit]
Censorship directed at political opposition to the ruling government is common in authoritarian and repressive regimes. Some countries block web sites related to religion and minority groups, often when these movements represent a threat to the ruling regimes.[8]

Examples include:

Political blogs and web sites[45]
Lèse majesté sites, sites with content that offends the dignity of or challenges the authority of a reigning sovereign or of a state
Falun Gong and Tibetan exile group sites in China or Buddhist, Cao Dai faith, and indigenous hill tribes sites in Vietnam
Sites aimed at religious conversion from Islam to Christianity[8]
§Social norms and morals[edit]
Social filtering is censorship of topics that are held to be antithetical to accepted societal norms.[8] In particular censorship of child pornography and to protect children enjoys very widespread public support and such content is subject to censorship and other restrictions in most countries.

Examples include:

Sites that include hate speech inciting racism, sexism, homophobia, or other forms of hatred
Sites seen as promoting illegal drug use (Erowid)[46]
Sex and erotic, fetishism, prostitution, and pornographic sites
Child pornography and pedophile related sites (see also CIRCAMP)
Gambling sites
Sites encouraging or inciting violence
Sites promoting criminal activity
Nazi and similar websites – particularly in France and Germany[47]
Sites that contain blasphemous content, particularly when directed at a majority or state supported religion
Sites that contain defamatory, slanderous, or libelous content
Sites that include political satire
§Security concerns[edit]
Many organizations implement filtering as part of a defense in depth strategy to protect their environments from malware,[48] and to protect their reputations in the event of their networks being used, for example, to carry out sexual harassment.

Internet filtering related to threats to national security that targets the Web sites of insurgents, extremists, and terrorists often enjoys wide public support.[8]

Examples include:

Blocking of pro–North Korean sites by South Korea[49]
Blocking sites of groups that foment domestic conflict in India
Blocking of sites of the Muslim Brotherhood in some countries in the Middle East
Blocking Wikileaks[50]
Blocking sites such as 4chan thought to be related to the group Anonymous[51]
§Protection of existing economic interests and copyright[edit]
The protection of existing economic interests is sometimes the motivation for blocking new Internet services such as low-cost telephone services that use Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP). These services can reduce the customer base of telecommunications companies, many of which enjoy entrenched monopoly positions and some of which are government sponsored or controlled.[8]

Anti-copyright activists Christian Engström, Rick Falkvinge and Oscar Swartz have alleged that censorship of child pornography is being used as a pretext by copyright lobby organizations to get politicians to implement similar site blocking legislation against copyright-related piracy.[52][53]

Examples include:

Filesharing and Peer-to-peer (P2P) related websites such as The Pirate Bay
Skype
Sites that sell or distribute music, but are not 'approved' by rights holders, such as allofmp3
According to Google chairman Eric Schmidt, "government plans to block access to illicit filesharing websites could set a "disastrous precedent" for freedom of speech" and also expressed that Google would "fight attempts to restrict access to sites such as the Pirate Bay."[54]

§Network tools[edit]
Blocking the intermediate tools and applications of the Internet that can be used to assist users in accessing and sharing sensitive material is common in many countries.[8]

Examples include:

Media sharing websites (e.g. Flickr and YouTube)[55]
Social networks (e.g. Facebook and Myspace)
Translation sites and tools
E-mail providers
Web hosting sites
Blog hosting sites such as Blogspot
Microblogging sites such as Twitter and Weibo[56]
Wikipedia
Censorship circumvention sites
Anonymizers
Proxy avoidance sites
Search engines such as Bing[57] and Google[58][59] – particularly in Mainland China and Cuba[60]
§Information about individuals[edit]
Main article: Right to be forgotten
The right to be forgotten is a concept that has been discussed and put into practice in the European Union. In May 2014, the European Court of Justice ruled against Google in Costeja, a case brought by a Spanish man who requested the removal of a link to a digitized 1998 article in La Vanguardia newspaper about an auction for his foreclosed home, for a debt that he had subsequently paid.[61] He initially attempted to have the article removed by complaining to Spain's data protection agency—Agencia Española de Protección de Datos—which rejected the claim on the grounds that it was lawful and accurate, but accepted a complaint against Google and asked Google to remove the results.[62] Google sued in Spain and the lawsuit was transferred to the European Court of Justice. The court ruled in Costeja that search engines are responsible for the content they point to and thus, Google was required to comply with EU data privacy laws.[63][64] It began compliance on 30 May 2014 during which it received 12,000 requests to have personal details removed from its search engine.[65]

Index on Censorship claimed that "Costeja ruling ... allows individuals to complain to search engines about information they do not like with no legal oversight. This is akin to marching into a library and forcing it to pulp books. Although the ruling is intended for private individuals it opens the door to anyone who wants to whitewash their personal history....The Court’s decision is a retrograde move that misunderstands the role and responsibility of search engines and the wider internet. It should send chills down the spine of everyone in the European Union who believes in the crucial importance of free expression and freedom of information.[66]

§Around the world[edit]
Main articles: Internet censorship by country and Censorship by country

Internet censorship and surveillance by country[67][68][69][70]
Pervasive censorship
Substantial censorship
Selective censorship
Changing situation
Little or no censorship
Not classified / no data
As more people in more places begin using the Internet for important activities, there is an increase in online censorship, using increasingly sophisticated techniques. The motives, scope, and effectiveness of Internet censorship vary widely from country to country. The countries engaged in state-mandated filtering are clustered in three main regions of the world: east Asia, central Asia, and the Middle East/North Africa.

Countries in other regions also practice certain forms of filtering. In the United States state-mandated Internet filtering occurs on some computers in libraries and K-12 schools. Content related to Nazism or Holocaust denial is blocked in France and Germany. Child pornography and hate speech are blocked in many countries throughout the world.[71] In fact, many countries throughout the world, including some democracies with long traditions of strong support for freedom of expression and freedom of the press, are engaged in some amount of online censorship, often with substantial public support.[72]

Internet censorship in China is among the most stringent in the world. The government blocks Web sites that discuss the Dalai Lama, the 1989 crackdown on Tiananmen Square protesters, the banned spiritual practice Falun Gong, as well as many general Internet sites.[73] The government requires Internet search firms and state media to censor issues deemed officially “sensitive,” and blocks access to foreign websites including Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.[74] According to a recent study,[75] censorship in China is used to muzzle those outside government who attempt to spur the creation of crowds for any reason—in opposition to, in support of, or unrelated to the government. The government allows the Chinese people to say whatever they like about the state, its leaders, or their policies, because talk about any subject unconnected to collective action is not censored. The value that Chinese leaders find in allowing and then measuring criticism by hundreds of millions of Chinese people creates actionable information for them and, as a result, also for academic scholars and public policy analysts.

There are international bodies that oppose internet censorship, for example "Internet censorship is open to challenge at the World Trade Organization (WTO) as it can restrict trade in online services, a forthcoming study argues".[76][better source needed]

In 2013 social media was banned in Turkey after the Taksim Gezi Park protests. Both Twitter and YouTube were closed in country with Turkish court’s decision. And a new law, passed by Turkish Parliament, has granted immunity to Turkey’s Telecommunications Directorate (TİB) personnel. The TİB was also given the authority to block access to specific websites without the need for a court order.[77]

§Reports, ratings, and trends[edit]

World map showing the status of YouTube blocking
Has local YouTube version
Accessible
Blocked
Previously blocked
Detailed country by country information on Internet censorship is provided by the OpenNet Initiative, Reporters Without Borders, Freedom House, and in the U.S. State Department Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor's Human Rights Reports.[78] The ratings produced by several of these organizations are summarized in the Internet censorship by country and the Censorship by country articles.

§OpenNet Initiative reports[edit]
Through 2010 the OpenNet Initiative had documented Internet filtering by governments in over forty countries worldwide.[26] The level of filtering in 26 countries in 2007 and in 25 countries in 2009 was classified in the political, social, and security areas. Of the 41 separate countries classified, seven were found to show no evidence of filtering in all three areas (Egypt, France, Germany, India, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and United States), while one was found to engage in pervasive filtering in all three areas (China), 13 were found to engage in pervasive filtering in one or more areas, and 34 were found to engage in some level of filtering in one or more areas. Of the 10 countries classified in both 2007 and 2009, one reduced its level of filtering (Pakistan), five increased their level of filtering (Azerbaijan, Belarus, Kazakhstan, South Korea, and Uzbekistan), and four maintained the same level of filtering (China, Iran, Myanmar, and Tajikistan).[3][68]

§Freedom on the Net reports[edit]
In the 2011 edition of Freedom House's report Freedom on the Net, of the 37 countries surveyed, 8 were rated as "free" (22%), 18 as "partly free" (49%), and 11 as "not free" (30%).[79] In their 2009 report, of the 15 countries surveyed, 4 were rated as "free" (27%), 7 as "partly free" (47%), and 4 as "not free" (27%).[80] And of the 15 countries surveyed in both 2009 and 2011, 5 were seen to be moving in the direction of more network freedom (33%), 9 moved toward less freedom (60%), and one was unchanged (7%).

The 2014 report assessed 65 countries and reported that 36 countries experienced a negative trajectory in Internet freedom since the previous year, with the most significant declines in Russia, Turkey and Ukraine. According to the report, few countries demonstrated any gains in Internet freedom, and the improvements that were recorded reflected less vigorous application of existing controls rather than new steps taken by governments to actively increase Internet freedom. The year's largest improvement was recorded in India, where restrictions to content and access were relaxed from what had been imposed in 2013 to stifle rioting in the northeastern states. Notable improvement was also recorded in Brazil, where lawmakers approved the bill Marco Civil da Internet, which contains significant provisions governing net neutrality and safeguarding privacy protection. [81]

§Reporters Without Borders (RWB)[edit]
§RWB "Internet enemies" and "countries under surveillance" lists[edit]
In 2006, Reporters without Borders (Reporters sans frontières, RSF), a Paris-based international non-governmental organization that advocates freedom of the press, started publishing a list of "Enemies of the Internet".[82] The organization classifies a country as an enemy of the internet because "all of these countries mark themselves out not just for their capacity to censor news and information online but also for their almost systematic repression of Internet users."[83] In 2007 a second list of countries "Under Surveillance" (originally "Under Watch") was added. Both lists are updated annually.[84]

Current Enemies of the Internet:[70][69]

Bahrain: 2012 to present
Belarus: 2006-2008, 2012 to present
China: 2008 to present
Cuba: 2006 to present
Ethiopia: 2014 to present
India: 2014 to present
Iran: 2006 to present
North Korea: 2006 to present
Pakistan: 2014 to present
Russia: 2014 to present
Saudi Arabia: 2006 to present
Sudan: 2014 to present
Syria: 2006 to present
Turkmenistan: 2006 to present
United Arab Emirates: 2014 to present
United Kingdom: 2014 to present
United States: 2014 to present
Uzbekistan: 2006 to present
Vietnam: 2006 to present
Past Enemies of the Internet:

Burma: 2006 to 2013
Egypt: 2006-2010
Tunisia: 2006-2010
Current Countries Under Surveillance:[70]

Australia: 2009 to present
Bahrain: 2008-2009 and 2011
Egypt: 2011 to present
Eritrea: 2008-2009, 2011 to present
France: 2011 to present
Jordan: 2008
Kazakhstan: 2008 to present
Malaysia: 2008-2009, 2011 to present
South Korea: 2009 to present
Sri Lanka: 2008-2009, 2011 to present
Thailand: 2008 to present
Tajikistan: 2008
Tunisia: 2011 to present
Turkey: 2010 to present
Venezuela: 2011
Past Countries Under Surveillance:

Belarus: 2009-2011
India: 2008-2013
Libya: 2008 and 2011
Russia: 2010-2013
United Arab Emirates: 2008 to 2013
Yemen: 2008-2009
When the "Enemies of the Internet" list was introduced in 2006, it listed 13 countries. From 2006 to 2012 the number of countries listed fell to 10 and then rose to 12. The list was not updated in 2013. In 2014 the list grew to 19 with an increased emphasis on surveillance in addition to censorship.

When the "Countries under surveillance" list was introduced in 2008, it listed 10 countries. Between 2008 and 2012 the number of countries listed grew to 16 and then fell to 14. The list was not updated in 2013 or 2014.

§RWB Special report on Internet Surveillance[edit]
On 12 March 2013 Reporters Without Borders published a Special report on Internet Surveillance.[27] The report includes two new lists:

a list of "State Enemies of the Internet", countries whose governments are involved in active, intrusive surveillance of news providers, resulting in grave violations of freedom of information and human rights; and
a list of "Corporate Enemies of the Internet", companies that sell products that are liable to be used by governments to violate human rights and freedom of information.
The five "State Enemies of the Internet" named in March 2013 are: Bahrain, China, Iran, Syria, and Vietnam.[27]

The five "Corporate Enemies of the Internet" named in March 2013 are: Amesys (France), Blue Coat Systems (U.S.), Gamma (UK and Germany), Hacking Team (Italy), and Trovicor (Germany).[27]

§BBC World Service global public opinion poll[edit]
A poll of 27,973 adults in 26 countries, including 14,306 Internet users,[85] was conducted for the BBC World Service by the international polling firm GlobeScan using telephone and in-person interviews between 30 November 2009 and 7 February 2010. GlobeScan Chairman Doug Miller felt, overall, that the poll showed that:

Despite worries about privacy and fraud, people around the world see access to the internet as their fundamental right. They think the web is a force for good, and most don’t want governments to regulate it.[86]
Findings from the poll include:[86]

Nearly four in five (78%) Internet users felt that the Internet had brought them greater freedom.
Most Internet users (53%) felt that "the internet should never be regulated by any level of government anywhere".
Opinion was evenly split between Internet users who felt that “the internet is a safe place to express my opinions” (48%) and those who disagreed (49%). Somewhat surprisingly users in Germany and France agreed the least, followed by users in highly filtered countries such as the People's Republic of China and South Korea, while users in Egypt, India and Kenya agreed more strongly.[3]
The aspects of the Internet that cause the most concern include: fraud (32%), violent and explicit content (27%), threats to privacy (20%), state censorship of content (6%), and the extent of corporate presence (3%).
Almost four in five Internet users and non-users around the world felt that access to the Internet was a fundamental right (50% strongly agreed, 29% somewhat agreed, 9% somewhat disagreed, 6% strongly disagreed, and 6% gave no opinion).[87] And while there is strong support for this right in all of the countries surveyed, it is surprising that the United States and Canada were among the top five countries where people most strongly disagreed that access to the Internet was a fundamental right of all people (13% in Japan, 11% in the U.S., 11% in Kenya, 11% in Pakistan, and 10% in Canada strongly disagree).[3]
§Internet Society's Global Internet User Survey[edit]
In July and August 2012 the Internet Society conducted online interviews of more than 10,000 Internet users in 20 countries. Some of the results relevant to Internet censorship are summarized below.[88]

Question No. of Responses Responses[89]
Access to the Internet should be considered a basic human right. 10,789 83% somewhat or strongly agree,
14% somewhat or strongly disagree,
3% don't know
Freedom of expression should be guaranteed on the Internet. 10,789 86% somewhat or strongly agree,
11% somewhat or strongly disagree,
2% don't know
The Internet should be governed in some form to protect the community from harm. 10,789 82% somewhat or strongly agree,
15% somewhat or strongly disagree,
3% don't know / not applicable
Censorship should exist in some form on the Internet. 10,789 71% somewhat or strongly agree,
24% somewhat or strongly disagree,
5% don't know / not applicable
Each individual country has the right to govern the Internet the way they see fit. 10,789 67% somewhat or strongly agree,
29% somewhat or strongly disagree,
4% don't know /not applicable
The Internet does more to help society than it does to hurt it. 10,789 83% somewhat or strongly agree,
13% somewhat or strongly disagree,
4% don't know / not applicable
How often do you read the privacy policies of websites or services that you share personal information with? 10,789 16% all the time,
31% most of the time,
41% sometimes,
12% never
When you are logged in to a service or application do you use privacy protections? 10,789 27% all the time,
36% most of the time,
29% sometimes,
9% never
Do you use “anonymization” services, for example, the “anonymize” feature in your web browser, specialized software like Tor, third - party redirection services like duckduckgo.com? 10,789 16% yes,
38% no,
43% don't know / not aware of these types of services,
3% would like to use them but I am not able to
Increased government control of the Internet would put limits on the content I can access. 9,717 77% somewhat or strongly agree,
18% somewhat or strongly disagree,
4% don't know / not applicable
Increased government control of the Internet would limit my freedom of expression. 9,717 74% somewhat or strongly agree,
23% somewhat or strongly disagree,
4% don't know / not applicable
Increased government control of the Internet would improve the content on the Internet. 9,717 49% somewhat or strongly agree,
44% somewhat or strongly disagree,
7% don't know / not applicable
Increased government control of the Internet would make the Internet safe for everyone to use. 9,717 58% somewhat or strongly agree,
35% somewhat or strongly disagree,
7% don't know / not applicable
Increased government control of the Internet would have no effect. 9,717 31% somewhat or strongly agree,
56% somewhat or strongly disagree,
14% don't know / not applicable
To what degree would you accept increased control or monitoring of the Internet if you gained increased safety? 10,789 61% a lot or somewhat,
23% not very much or not at all
§Transparency of filtering or blocking activities[edit]
Among the countries that filter or block online content, few openly admit to or fully disclose their filtering and blocking activities. States are frequently opaque and/or deceptive about the blocking of access to political information.[7] For example:

Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) are among the few states that publish detailed information about their filtering practices and display a notification to the user when attempting to access a blocked website.
In contrast, countries such as China and Tunisia send users a false error indication. China blocks requests by users for a banned website at the router level and a connection error is returned, effectively preventing the user's IP address from making further HTTP requests for a varying time, which appears to the user as "time-out" error with no explanation. Tunisia has altered the block page functionality of SmartFilter, the commercial filtering software it uses, so that users attempting to access blocked websites receive a fake "File not found" error page.
In Uzbekistan users are frequently sent block pages stating that the website is blocked because of pornography, even when the page contains no pornography. Uzbeki ISPs may also redirect users' request for blocked websites to unrelated websites, or sites similar to the banned websites, but with different information.[90]
§Arab Spring[edit]
See also: Internet Censorship in the Arab Spring, 2011 Egyptian Internet shutdown, and Free speech in the media during the Libyan civil war
During the Arab Spring of 2011, media jihad (media struggle) was extensive. Internet and mobile technologies, particularly social networks such as Facebook and Twitter, played and are playing important new and unique roles in organizing and spreading the protests and making them visible to the rest of the world. An activist in Egypt tweeted, “we use Facebook to schedule the protests, Twitter to coordinate, and YouTube to tell the world”.[91]

This successful use of digital media in turn led to increased censorship including the complete loss of Internet access for periods of time in Egypt[13][14][92] and Libya in 2011.[16][93] In Syria, the Syrian Electronic Army (SEA), an organization that operates with at least tacit support of the government, claims responsibility for defacing or otherwise compromising scores of websites that it contends spread news hostile to the Syrian government. SEA disseminates denial of service (DoS) software designed to target media websites including those of Al Jazeera, BBC News, Syrian satellite broadcaster Orient TV, and Dubai-based al-Arabia TV.[94]

In response to the greater freedom of expression brought about by the Arab Spring revolutions in countries that were previously subject to very strict censorship, in March 2011, Reporters Without Borders moved Tunisia and Egypt from its "Internet enemies" list to its list of countries "under surveillance"[95] and in 2012 dropped Libya from the list entirely.[70] At the same time, there were warnings that Internet censorship might increase in other countries following the events of the Arab Spring.[96][97]

§See also[edit]
Organizations and projects:

Anonymous – an online hacktivist collective that express its opposition to Internet censorship through protests and online hacking in several countries.
Chilling Effects – A joint project of the Electronic Frontier Foundation and several U.S. university law schools and clinics
CIRCAMP, Cospol Internet Related Child Abusive Material Project, a project of the European Chiefs of Police Task Force to combat commercial and organized distribution of child pornography
The Clean IT project, a European Union-funded project with the stated aim of suppressing terrorist activity
Electronic Frontier Foundation – An international non-profit digital rights advocacy and legal organization
Financial Coalition Against Child Pornography – A coalition of credit card issuers and Internet services companies that seeks to eliminate commercial child pornography by taking action on the payment systems that fund these operations
Freedom House, a U.S. based non-profit that produces the Freedom on the Net reports, among others.
Global Internet Freedom Consortium (GIFC) – A consortium of organizations that develop and deploy anti-censorship technologies
Global Internet Freedom Task Force (GIFT) - An initiative within the U.S. Department of State
International Freedom of Expression Exchange (IFEX) – A global network of non-governmental organizations that promotes and defends the right to freedom of expression
Tunisia Monitoring Group – A coalition within IFEX that monitors free expression in Tunisia
Internet Governance Forum (IGF) – A United Nations multi-stakeholder policy dialogue initiative
Internet Watch Foundation - government-supported charity that manages the blacklist used by UK ISPs to block access to websites hosting child abuse content.
OpenNet Initiative – A joint project to monitor and report on Internet filtering and surveillance practices by nations
Peacefire, a U.S.-based website dedicated to "preserving First Amendment rights for Internet users, particularly those younger than 18"
The Pirate Party – a political movement that aims to reform laws regarding copyright and patents, strengthen the right to privacy, and increase the transparency of state administration
Reporters sans frontières (Reporters Without Borders) – A France-based international non-governmental organization that advocates freedom of the press
Book icon
Book: Internet
Portal icon Internet portal
Portal icon Freedom of speech portal
Topics:

Accountability software
Anti-copyright
Block (Internet), banning or blocking individual users.
Cleanfeed, a content blocking system in use in the UK and Canada.
Computer surveillance
Content-control software
Cyber-dissident
The Digital Imprimatur, a 2003 article about Internet censorship and Digital Rights Management by John Walker, co-founder of the computer-aided design software company Autodesk.
Digital rights
For the children (politics)
Great Firewall of China
Internet police
Internet activism
Internet safety
Laws and proposed laws:
List of Copyright Acts by country
Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA), multinational treaty.
Communications Decency Act, US law ruled unconstitutional.
Black World Wide Web protest
Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), US law.
Copyright Directive, European Union directive.
Copyright (New Technologies) Amendment Act 2008, New Zealand.
New Zealand Internet Blackout
HADOPI law, French law.
Paragraph 29 of DDL intercettazioni, proposed Italian law.
2011 mass blanking protest, Italian Wikipedia.
SOPA and PIPA, proposed US laws:
PROTECT Intellectual Property Act (PIPA), proposed US law.
Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA), proposed US law.
Protests against SOPA and PIPA
Federal law of Russian Federation no. 139-FZ of 2012-07-28, Russian law.
Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), a proposed multilateral Free Trade Agreement that includes controversial intellectual property provisions.
Trans-Pacific Partnership intellectual property provisions
List of content-control software
Parental controls
Political repression of cyber-dissidents
Right to Internet access
River crab (Internet slang)
Scientology versus the Internet
Sociology of the Internet
Splinternet
§References[edit]
Cc.logo.circle.svg This article incorporates licensed material from the OpenNet Initiative web site.[98]

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Jump up ^ "Internet Censorship in China". The New York Times. December 28, 2012. Retrieved 9 March 2013.
Jump up ^ Human Rights Watch. "World Report 2012: China". Retrieved 9 March 2013.
Jump up ^ G. King et al. (22 August 2014). "Reverse-entineering censorship in China: Randomized experimentation and participant observation". Science 345 (6199): 891. doi:10.1126/scient.1251722.
Jump up ^ [1] (subscription required), Proquest, 6 January 2010. Retrieved 11 February 2013
Jump up ^ Sarıkaya, Salih. "Social Media Ban In Turkey: What Does It Mean? by Salih Sarıkaya". Retrieved 15/07/14. Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
Jump up ^ "2010 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices", Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, U.S. Department of State, 8 April 2011
Jump up ^ Freedom on the Net 2011, Freedom House. Retrieved 1 September 2011
Jump up ^ Freedom on the Net 2009, Freedom House. Retrieved 1 September 2011
Jump up ^ Freedom on the Net 2014, Freedom House. Retrieved 14 December 2014
Jump up ^ List of the 13 Internet enemies Reporters Without Borders (Paris), 11 July 2006.
Jump up ^ "Internet enemies", Reporters Without Borders (Paris), 12 March 2009.
Jump up ^ Web 2.0 versus Control 2.0. Reporters Without Borders (Paris), 18 March 2010.
Jump up ^ For the BBC poll Internet users are those who used the Internet within the previous six months.
^ Jump up to: a b "BBC Internet Poll: Detailed Findings", BBC World Service, 8 March 2010
Jump up ^ "Internet access
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:57am PT
bvb,
Wow, that's a lot to digest.
To sum up, which countries would censor a photo of Willie Nelson's ball sack?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 6, 2015 - 11:36am PT
bvb thinks he's saving supertopo for climbers only. LOL!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 9, 2015 - 07:17am PT
Here comes the fun again......

I'm sorry you lost a good one Canada.

http://news.yahoo.com/iraqi-kurds-canadian-soldier-killed-ignoring-order-092632387.html
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:03am PT
Werner, you're reading the Russian Govt for your news? I'm all for having a wide variety of sources, but I don't trust Putin any more than most of the fools around here. Even less in fact.

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20150307/1019201301.html




Sputnik is an international multimedia news service launched on 10 November 2014 by Rossiya Segodnya, an agency wholly owned and operated by the Russian government, which was created by a Decree of the President of Russia on 9 December 2013.


Iraqi counter-terrorism forces arrested four foreign military advisors from the United States and Israel who were aiding the Islamic State, Iranian Tasnim News Agency reports.

WBraun

climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:08am PT
I didn't read any of your news feeds.

Get with the program.

Get it from the source directly on the ground.

Stoopid Americans only believe ONE thing.

America is so pure and does nothing wrong and America is the savior of the world fighting the bad guys.

American Hollywood loon consciousness.

No wonder the whole planet is soooo sick ......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:13am PT
Rossiya Segodnya

Homes, that should read 'Rossiya Sevodnya'. It is a 'g' in Russian but it is
pronounced as a 'v'.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:23am PT
Homes, I didn't spell the damn thing.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:32am PT
Hey, don't take it personally or I'll call you BVB2!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:38am PT
Dan Carlin tweets...

Imagine if our ancestors had had access to video. How much ISIS-like content would we have in the archives?

Food for thought this morning.

http://www.dancarlin.com
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 9, 2015 - 10:41am PT
recent facebook interchange

class pres 76 One Iranian nuclear bomb/ EMP can ruin your whole day... OBAMA's gonna give it to them. SAVE the baby HUMANS...
Please don't spread that anti-Israel stuff. Some people have no clue what's happening, and unfortunately they vote Muslims into office.


hippie lib: You think Obama is a Muslim, class pres 76? And he's going to give Iran a nuke?
March 6 at 2:22pm · Like · 1

class pres 76: He's a lying Muslim... It's a centuries old practice called Hudna in the Koran... See "America 2016" movie by Dinesh D'Souza... Great expose about him... and the "sunset clause" in his Iranian deal gives them unlimited rights to enrich uranium for any (military) purpose in 10 years, assuming thru don't annihilate anybody before then... like they keep saying they must do, to get the infidel Jews out of their land. We shouldn't even be talking to Iran while they make such threats, but he's undoing years of sanctions to further Islamic world domination.



this seems to me the hallmark of stupidity. but then I'm a socialist hippie lib. Rightwingers are you basing your worldview on netfix?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 9, 2015 - 11:01am PT
There is no shortage of stupidity anywhere on Facebook...
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 9, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
ST's got plenty to go around too.

:-)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 10, 2015 - 07:57pm PT
No shortage of stupidity in the upper echelons either.

Subject: A-10 driver perspective
Date: March 6, 2015 at 4:16:21 PM EST

FYSA
The squadron is doing fine. Everybody is happy to be here and we are doing some good work. The A-10s are holding up well and the technology we have have on the jets now (targeting pods, GPS guided bombs, Laser Guided bombs, Laser guided missiles, tactical data link, satellite comms), and of course the gun, make the A-10 ideal for this conflict. We are killing off as many ISIS as we can, mostly in ones and twos, working with the hand we are dealt. I’ve never been more convicted in my career that we facing an enemy that needs to be eradicated.
With that being said…I’ve never been more frustrated in my career. After 13 years of the mind-numbing low intensity conflict in Afghanistan, I’ve never seen the knife more dull. All the hard lessons learned in Vietnam, and fixed during the first Gulf War, have been unlearned again. The level of centralized execution, bureaucracy, and politics is staggering. I basically do not have any decision making authority in my cockpit. It sucks. In most cases, unless a general officer can look at a video picture from a UAV, over a satellite link, I cannot get authority to engage. I’ve spent many hours, staring through a targeting pod screen in my own cockpit, watching ISIS perpetrate their acts until my eyes bleed, without being able to do anything about it. The institutional fear of making a mistake, that has crept into the central mindset of the military leadership, is endemic. We have not taken the fight to these guys. We haven’t targeted their centers of gravity in Raqqa. All the roads between Syria and Iraq are still intact with trucks flowing freely. The other night I watched a couple hundred small tanker trucks lined up at an oilfield in ISIS-held northeast Syria, presumably filling up with with oil traded on the black market, go unfettered. It’s not uncommon to wait several hours overhead a suspected target for someone to make a decision to engage or not. It feels like we are simply using the constructs build up in Afghanistan, which was a very limited fight, in the same way here against ISIS, which is a much more sophisticated and numerically greater foe. It’s embarrassing.
Be assured that the Hawg drivers are doing their best.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 11, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
Werner thinks we're spending millions of dollars every day to bomb our own guys. Tee hee hee hee!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 11, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
That whole story is a fabrication.


Dave, what's yer rationale? It sounds like what war fighters have been
frustrated about for lo these 50 years. We carefully select people of
exceptional qualities, spend millions training them, and then tell them
"you're not qualified to make a decision even though you are on the scene -
some dipsh!t in the rear who is more worried about jeopardizing his retire-
ment at O-6+ is better qualified to make the call."
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 11, 2015 - 01:27pm PT
Reilly, they require supervision or they would just kill people all the time.

Trust me, I know these people....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 11, 2015 - 01:35pm PT

In any case I really don't give a fuk if some bored pilot is unhappy because he doesn't get to shoot whomever he feels like killing.

Well, I guess you have both no familiarity with nor respect for the type of
individuals our officer corps is comprised of. Cynicism does have its
down side.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 11, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 11, 2015 - 03:23pm PT
Oh, DMT, do tell me about being an officer, I'm all ears. The 'Great Santinis'
get weeded out very quickly, except in Hollywood. Everybody accepts the
need for ROE's but that doesn't mean they have to make sense. You certainly
don't have to like them, you only have to heed them. Our possibly fictional
character upthread expressed himself succinctly, reasonably and, without
a doubt, very representatively.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 11, 2015 - 04:56pm PT
I’ve spent many hours, staring through a targeting pod screen in my own cockpit, watching ISIS perpetrate their acts until my eyes bleed, without being able to do anything about it.

That whole story is a fabrication.

And not a good one....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 16, 2015 - 09:36am PT
You guys really should be in charge of the world since you clearly know everything,
including how everyone else thinks and is able to express themselves. I did
allow that our 'hero' was possibly somebody's figment but you guys have me in
stitches by purporting to be able to expose him based on his writing skills.
You know, I just took a look at the United States Uniformed Services Oath of
Office, not to be confused with the United States Armed Forces oath of enlistment,
to make sure that I hadn't forgotten something lo these many years on and
it does indeed fail to make any stipulation about an officer's ability to express
himself, even by proxy. I did learn that:

" The oath is for an indeterminate period; no duration is specifically defined."

Yikers! I am still duty bound to turn your treasonous lot in! YER FOREWARNED!


Meanwhile, I just pulled this classic shot off of Reuters. I think the title was:

"Somebody just got owned!"

I mean, when you buy a carpet and the dude is unabashedly grinning ear-to-ear
afterwards you KNOW you left a pile of moolah on the table!


climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 16, 2015 - 09:59am PT
A couple things in the story struck me as unlikely but I can't say conclusively it is made up, though I suspect it is. However it does sound like the kind of thing you hear a lot in various wars.


First oddity

"It’s not uncommon to wait several hours overhead a suspected target for someone to make a decision to engage or not."

These guys wait in shifts? I think the hawgs might barely make 2hrs flight time if careful. I suppose they do probably refuel ..so maybe but seems odd.

Second some of the discussion if real would likely be of classified material.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 16, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 17, 2015 - 10:48am PT
Good clip of the battle for Kirkuk.


At about 7:12 and again at 7:48 you can hear the distinctive sound of the A-10 rotary cannon. I've seen it in exercises, it's a helluva gun.

Close air support is not exactly "airstrikes" eh?



[Click to View YouTube Video]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 17, 2015 - 11:20am PT
Man, all I have to say is that I wish I had the local Toyota dealership.
I almost fainted when I saw that Chevy pickup!

And those doods sure love standing around looking at dead people.
Different strokes, I guess.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 17, 2015 - 11:47am PT
The suicide bombers love the Toyota Tundras with the ghost accerleration defects...
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 17, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
I think they all pay in cash too, because chances are they won't be around long enough to make all the payments. At least you can go with liability only on the insurance.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Mar 17, 2015 - 12:27pm PT
They steal or buy stolen most of their cars.

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 30, 2015 - 08:01am PT
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-president-bashar-al-assad-60-minutes-charlie-rose/

me thinks bashar's getting scared..
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 30, 2015 - 08:21am PT
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/03/28/the-united-states-is-providing-air-cover-for-ethnic-cleansing-in-iraq-shiite-militias-isis/

The Shia militias are just as bad as ISIS

The only even close to good guys over there are the Kurds, Yazidis and few remaining Christians.

The last two are militarily insignificant.
WBraun

climber
Mar 30, 2015 - 08:23am PT

Americans remain stupid .....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 30, 2015 - 08:36am PT
Yeah duck,

IT'S THE JOOOOOOOS!


WBraun

climber
Mar 30, 2015 - 08:45am PT
Not joooos

Criminals cloaked in fabrics of sectarian factions ......
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 30, 2015 - 09:23am PT
You mean the criminals Ali and Abu that started this little squabble with the First Fitna in 656 and their heirs have been at it ever since.
WBraun

climber
Mar 30, 2015 - 09:27am PT
Try not to pigeonhole TGT.

Things are not always what they seem on the outside ......
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 30, 2015 - 11:53am PT
A picture worth a thousand words, in this case, one maybe two.

TGT it is not the Jews or going back thousands of years, it’s the man pictured above that’s the problem. We have the same here many cloaked openly and some concealed with the intent of misleading with their "hidden agenda”.

Wait and see in the next couple of days. Deal or no deal. Maybe more time a month but the Nazi above will dictate and tell us what to do.

Werner: one of a few that can see through the tree or a rock and see who is behind it.

Pictured saved on this one.
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