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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 27, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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been watching the ceremonies around the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.
Pretty chilling. Could it happen again? Seems that there are signs.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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Signs?
Please elaborate.
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steve shea
climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:46am PT
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Isis seems to be hell bent on genocide. 95% of Christians have fled Syria/Iraq Isis held territory. The other 5% killed or converted to Islam and even then possibly killed.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 08:49am PT
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there was one speaker who outlined the growing anti-semitism in Europe. Is that not where/how the Holocaust started? Isn't denial one of the first steps in that direction?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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"Next time it will probably be Christians."
Great. Yet another reason for Christians to hold up about how they've been victimized throughout history, and how they are the 'one, true religion'.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:59am PT
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Auschwitz is a chilling place to visit. For some reason, it hit me harder the day after I toured the place. If you've been there, you know how "recent" it all feels. The Nazis got out of there as fast as they could, but couldn't cover up or destroy the most damning evidence of what they'd been doing. To this day, I don't take Bayer aspirin (yeah...I'm like Gandhi) because of the IG Farben factory right next to the camp that used slave labor from the camp. It continued operations throughout and after the war, uninterrupted, even with the knowledge of what they'd been doing--namely, using humans till they dropped.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:59am PT
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America is already in the concentration camp of their mind control dictatorship cloaked in the costume of democracy.
America suffers continual psychological and mental distress at the hands of their rulers .....
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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Sick thread, not the rad kind.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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Eugenics, the social movement claiming to improve the genetic features of human populations through selective breeding and sterilization,[1] based on the idea that it is possible to distinguish between superior and inferior elements of society,[2] played a significant role in the history and culture of the United States prior to its involvement in World War II.[3]
Eugenics was practised in the United States many years before eugenics programs in Nazi Germany[4] and U.S. programs provided much of the inspiration for the latter.[5][6][7] Stefan Kühl has documented the consensus between Nazi race policies and those of eugenicists in other countries, including the United States, and points out that eugenicists understood Nazi policies and measures as the realization of their goals and demands.[5]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States
We would like to think ourselves(United States as a country) to have been superior in our world outlook, but the fact was that we were "down with the program" for quite some time as the concept developed. It was only Germany's fixation with efficiency and perfection in action that kept them moving forward as others began to understand the horror of what the practice of Eugenics would ultimately entail.
We never were better, and we are no better nowadays. Just look at those who would burn the middle east to cinders to wipe out what they perceive as a threat to their way of thinking.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 10:01am PT
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Googling "Operation Northwoods" should get you over the idea that the folks running the show in the US are much above this kind of horror. Vigilance is still the operational word here. Never forget.
It's not just a western thing. Look at japan in WW2, or the Cambodia experience with the Khmer Rouge. Cambodians are some of the most kindest, genteel folks around. Google Killing fields if you are unfamiliar.
Shakes head....
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 27, 2015 - 10:35am PT
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https://www.youtube.com/user/USCShoahFoundation
Survivor and liberator testimonies, gut wrenching stuff. To survive those camps you had to be young and with a stout constitution, and someone along the way had to give you a break.
One British medical student was sent to Ohrdruf camp right after its discovery. He thought you had to be a criminal to survive there. He said it was a place where you would arrive at the beginning of the month and be glad to be dead at the end of the month.
After walking into one room at Ohrdruf, Patton came out and puked, then told his troops, "I don't want you guys to take anymore f*#king prisoners."
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jan 27, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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My father in law was sent there with his family when he was 16. He saw his parents shot then burned. All of the kids survived.
Christians vs Jews? Remember during the Crusades the armies travelling to the holy land paused to hammer on any Jews they could find along the way.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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When I lived in NYC, one day I went into a lamps supply store on the Bowery. The man behind the counter was quite old, and as he reached into a bin to get the brass fittings I wanted(I was using for stained glass work I was doing at the time, using lamp finials as lifting knobs for box tops), I saw the numbers tattooed upon the skin of his forearm.
Though I had never seen a person with concentration camp numbers before, it was as immediately recognizable as the first time you hear a rattlesnake shake it's tail. The shock that ran through my body was palpable. I looked at the man and though I so wanted to ask, I knew better. I just smiled into his eyes, as he was aware I had noticed the tattoos, as if to say "I am glad you survived." Still a haunting memory more than a dozen years later.
One of the company owners, when I was a handbag designer, also survived because he was a young child and a wealthy relative had him shipped overseas before the process got too bad. He was there to see his father and oldest brother, a doctor, removed from the family home and put into some holding area in the town. He said they would go there and throw loaves of bread over the fence to them. He was the only member of his immediate family to survive.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 27, 2015 - 11:18am PT
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Can it happen again? It's happening all too often. We had Rwanda, the Balkans, Syria, and on and on. All it takes is some nominal difference (example, Shiite vs. Sunni), and some demagogue's need for a scapegoat, and away we go.
My mother is probably the last Central Valley survivor of the Armenian massacres of 1915. Although she was only three years old then, she still remembers vividly 100 years later her being thrown into prison, and her father's death. Those massacres came about because the Young Turk government decided to invade the Caucuses, thinking that Azeris and other Muslims in the Russian empire would rise up and join the Turks in defeating Russians. It didn't happen, and the Turks suffered a crushing defeat.
The cause of the defeat was the monumental mistakes of the Young Turk government, but what government would admit that? Instead, they concocted the story that they lost because of treachery of those Christian Armenians, so they need to be moved away - as in moved away from earth. Talaat Pasha (the interior minister of Turkey then) had plans for the extermination of the Armenians not only in the Ottoman Empire but outside it. The Armenians were "different," and made a convenient target.
Sad to say, people haven't changed. The last American concentration camps were for the Japanese in World War II, and at least they weren't death camps, but they form a shameful part of our history. I doubt that we've learned much, though, because I hear people now claiming that Muslims, Immigrants (legally here or otherwise), "the rich" "the homosexual agenda" "born-again Christians, " etc. etc., are responsible for all our problems.
For all these reasons, we need to approach any argument that our problems come from "those people" with a hostile skepticism. While the United States has real enemies, any denunciation of large groups of people probably poses a greater threat to us than the people denounced.
John
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jan 27, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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There's a movie on YouTube about the Wannsee conference, I believe it is called The Conspiracy. Disturbing.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jan 27, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
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Check it out for yourself, but some in academia have surmized that Hitler (and crew) learned from the Ottoman Armenian genocide that this kind of thing could be done successfully and without repercussion. And it was not just limited to the Armenians. Other indigenous and Christian ethnic groups (greeks included) targeted for extermination by the Ottoman government.
Because of the Ottoman Empire's attempt at extermination of their Armenian population, Raphael Lemkin coined the word genocide. Lemkin was specifically motivated by this "event".
And yes, I would agree with John that these types of things are still happening/haven't stopped happening..
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2015 - 02:35pm PT
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Anti-Jewishness was rife throughout North America, Europe and elsewhere in those days.
The death toll from this nightmare would have been far lower if (among pretty well any nation you can name), the U.S., Canada, and Great Britain had opened their borders to Jewish refugees - on some particularly loathsome occasions, they were turned back and returned to their doom in Nazi Germany.
Admittedly, the above comments are somewhat simplified, as the details are complex, and academicians spend their entire careers debating the minutiae of the Holocaust, but these statements are substantially true.
Another thing that would have not only prevented the Holocaust from occurring, but also World War Two, would have been if even one single soul in a position of power in any of the nations victimized by Nazi Germany took the trouble to read Mein Kampf and took Hitler's words seriously. This "book" is an appallingly poorly written rant from a clearly diseased mind, and it unmistakably laid out the entire Nazi agenda for the future.
I recommend that anyone who wishes to understand the roots of the Holocaust should read Mein Kampf. It is not easy reading - not only because of its staggering depth of paranoid hatred, but simply because it is undeniable that this monster was a lousy writer. Be very concerned about your own mental health if you do not feel the need to repeatedly shower with disinfectant while reading this crap.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jan 27, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
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Check it out for yourself, but some in academia have surmized that Hitler (and crew) learned from the Ottoman Armenian genocide that this kind of thing could be done successfully and without repercussion.
Hitler said as much himself. I don't have time to pull the book off the shelf, but essentially he said: "As long as we win, no one will care what we have done."
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 27, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
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Agree, Stewart and skcreidc. About 50 years ago (as a somewhat precocious 13-year-old) I forced myself to read both Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto. Marx was a much better - and clearly more intelligent - writer, but both were rather difficult reading for a young teenager.
The West's refusal to allow Jewish refugees to enter is, sadly, still our default position when groups face persecution. I always found it particularly ironic that Lemkin coined the term "genocide" in 1943, with the horrors of the Holocaust in full swing, but the free world largely silent (but, admittedly, doing everything they could to end the Third Reich).
I am also painfully aware of the eradication of the Greeks from Asia Minor following World War I. Fromkin's A Peace TO End All Peace documents quite well how the fall of the Ottoman Empire gave us the modern Middle East, with all its problems.
Again, though, my refrain remains that we should always be concerned when even a politician, and not just a government, names a minority as scapegoat. The demagoguery too often leads to tragedy.
John
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2015 - 04:05pm PT
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DanaB: If I remember correctly, Hitler's quote (referring to his genocidal plans)was pretty close to "Who remembers the Armenians?"
JEIeazarian: Well said. Go forth and multiply.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jan 27, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Stewart,
Yes, and Hitler also said something to the effect: "The power of the people to remember is infinitely small. The power of the people to forget is infinitely large."
Primo Levi remembered that he broke off an icicle from the eave of a window in order to get something to drink. One of the camp guards snatched it from Levi's hands. When Levi asked him why, the guard said Hier ist kein warum - Here there is no why.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2015 - 04:45pm PT
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QITNL: I'll be there. If I miss one, feel free to come & get me.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 27, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
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When I was small I met one of my mother's cousins who had the numbers on her arm.
I had to watch Schindler's List once, but don't know if I can again.
I'm glad Speilberg attended the event.
Yes, Hitler learned from the Turks, and then (initially) his hero, Mussolini in Abyssinia. Yes, genocide has happened again.
But we are not the bastion of liberty like we would like to believe.
We interned the japanese, and in our prisons today we incarcerate the largest population of non-violent criminals of any country in the history of the world.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 27, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
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I recommend that anyone who wishes to understand the roots of the Holocaust should read Mein Kampf. It is not easy reading - not only because of its staggering depth of paranoid hatred, but simply because it is undeniable that this monster was a lousy writer. Be very concerned about your own mental health if you do not feel the need to repeatedly shower with disinfectant while reading this crap.
Hitler is long gone, but you ought to try reading the Koran.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
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TGT: There are plenty of Hitler's scumbag supporters around these days, and more than a few in the U.S.
I haven't read the Koran, and you definitely haven't read Mein Kampf, or else you wouldn't have made such an ignorant comment. Mein Kampf drips evil from every page.
Regardless of your statements about the Koran, there are millions upon millions of Muslims who live in peace with their neighbours. There is no room in the horror of Nazism for anything other than gleeful murder of every single human being who does not agree with their twisted "philosophy".
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 27, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
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Read Mein Kampf about 40 years ago, the Koran maybe 10.
Both are barely readable, but completely revealing about the reputed authors.
(reputed, because Mohamed was illiterate)
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
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TGT: And your point is what?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 27, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
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Just read both books.
And "dreams from my father" while you are at it.
(also ghost written)
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jan 27, 2015 - 07:27pm PT
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America is already in the concentration camp of their mind control dictatorship cloaked in the costume of democracy.
America suffers continual psychological and mental distress at the hands of their rulers .....
This would certainly explain many of our societies current ailments, both mental and physical.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
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TGT: This thread is about the Holocaust, in case you haven't noticed. I'm still waiting for your comments on this subject.
I'll put the Koran on my reading list after all "Christians" start practicing the teachings of Christ.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 27, 2015 - 07:44pm PT
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It is horrific what happened to the Jews and it is horrific what is happening to the Palestinians...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
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If any thread ever needed help from happy people this is it.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
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Race photos never hurt.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
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TGT: I'm still waiting for you to get off your ass and respond to my factual comment that the evil of Nazism is still poisoning this planet.
Pud: Nice photos, but the same kind of monsters responsible for Auschwitz and other genocides that continue to this very day aren't big on laughs unless they involve the murder of innocents.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:35pm PT
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Nice photos, but the same kind of monsters responsible for Auschwitz and other genocides that continue to this very day aren't big on laughs unless they involve the murder of innocents.
And ranting about it on a rock climbing forum is going to change that.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
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America is already in the concentration camp of their mind control dictatorship cloaked in the costume of democracy.
America suffers continual psychological and mental distress at the hands of their rulers .....
Thanks, Werner -
That explains, but fails completely to alleviate the dis-ease.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
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I think it's good you brought it up little Z,
and thanks to you who have commented thoughtfully (imesho).
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:24pm PT
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Pud: Just brilliant. There's a book titled "And the Band Played On" that you should read. It's about the sinking of the Titanic, and I hope the metaphor is obvious.
Climbing is (usually) fun. Unfortunately, there's a very real world out there where masses of innocent people die horrible deaths while others sit around in their selfish little worlds ignoring their plight instead of getting off their self-absorbed asses and attempting to help them out.
I don't need a lecture from you about climbing. I've probably been climbing longer than you have been alive, so if you don't like this thread, please bugger off and let people who care about this stuff discuss reality.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jan 27, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
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In this matter, I'm inclined to pay attention or watch for those who lay low after making statements and then decline to defend or further define them. A trait nazis and some republicans evidently share, it seems. John E., on the other hand, is spot-on.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 28, 2015 - 05:09am PT
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Kos..Did you make it to the rock-roll hall of fame and did you know Kenny Rodgers can be annoying if you play poker with him..?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 28, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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QITNL, the answer is "yes," to the extent we name "Muslims," rather than terrorists purporting to act in the name of Islam. It's like the difference between "Christians" and Westboro Baptist Church. I feel the same way when I see posts that generalize about "Muslim countries."
John
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jan 28, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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Unfortunately, there's a very real world out there where masses of innocent people die horrible deaths while others sit around in their selfish little worlds ignoring their plight instead of getting off their self-absorbed asses and attempting to help them out.
So this means you typed this standing up?
Why not try a little kindness in your efforts to rid the world of tyrants?
Hate is hate. Choose love.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 28, 2015 - 02:02pm PT
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TMJesse - Thanks for reminding me about this. I'd put Hookworm at the top of the list.
QITNL: I appreciate your kind remark and also the reality check. It gives me hope for the human race.
As for you Pud - what do you define as kindness? Ignoring mass murder?
For what it's worth, I've spent 9 years doing volunteer work with the homeless, been presented with a certificate of appreciation from the Governor-General of Canada for the number of (free) pints of blood I have donated and I contribute money to the War Amps of Canada. I have also risked my life on numerous occasions to rescue strangers in distress. Is there a point in me continuing?
Is that enough love for you? Now let's read about the overwhelming number of selfless deeds you perform that gives you the right to smirk at genocide.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 28, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
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Next time it will probably be Christians.
gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people
Until 1973, there was bit of institutionalized "genocide" going on in this country, related to the christians. Over 5,000 people were "murdered" every year in this country.
In a landmark case in 1973, Roe vs. Wade, the U.S. Supreme Court over turned christian laws that prevented a woman from getting an abortion. Women no longer had to rely on back-room abortions that killed over 50,000 women in the previous decade.
Nowadays, the death rate from natural child birth is greater than the death rate from surgical abortion.
In the USA:
Americans killed by ISIS = 0
Americans killed by christians = over 100,000 in total
Gives you food for thought for who are the true villains.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 28, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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I'm still steaming over comments about love magically acting as an antidote to genocide. For those unfamiliar with the '60s, that was the mantra of the counterculture, and while it was an admirable sentiment, in the big picture it didn't change a damn thing.
Furthermore, while many, if not most, victims of the Holocaust were rounded up before they even had a chance to comprehend what was in store for them, many of those who perished simply ignored compelling evidence that their fate was death. These poor fools simply didn't believe that civilized people could possibly intend to murder them merely because of their religious beliefs.
A verbatim conversation overheard by an Auschwitz survivor:
Jewish woman (who was moments away from being sent to the gas chambers) to SS officer: "I've been told that you intend to murder us.
SS officer: "Madam! Do you think we are barbarians?"
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jan 28, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
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When a person is shocked to their core with the reality they are being presented with, denial is a method of coping. Some will take that route, others not. One cannot place blame on a person for being incapable of believing the unbelievable.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 28, 2015 - 05:57pm PT
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These poor fools simply didn't believe that civilized people could possibly intend to murder them merely because of their religious beliefs.
This is true. In one of the USC testimonies, a survivor talked about his father being the respected elder in his small Polish village. When the people came to him worried about what the Germans might do, the father said not to worry. The German people were the most cultured, most civilized in the world.
The kid survived because he was young and healthy and an Aryan blond in the labor camp office would sneak him marmalade and butter sandwiches when he did chores at the office. When got typhus his employer hid him for a few days until he recovered. Typhus got you shot right away.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 28, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
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Happiegrrrl2: I intend not even a whisper of blame against those poor people. It is human nature to confront the unimaginable with disbelief.
The tragedy here is that evil people use this heartbreakingly human instinct to serve their twisted purposes.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 28, 2015 - 08:51pm PT
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...so in comparison he didn't have it bad.
Another survivor made it because he could run a locomotive. He worked outside the camp during the day and was relatively well fed.
Then one day towards the end of the war, he was sent to a death camp. The interviewer asked him how he was treated compared to the labor camp. Quite well, he said. The food at the death camp was better and the guards were nicer.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jan 28, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
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Gives you food for thought for who are the true villains.
Yes . . . the hypocrisy and deception run deep.
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mcolombo
Trad climber
Heidelberg, Germany
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Jan 29, 2015 - 12:31am PT
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there was one speaker who outlined the growing anti-semitism in Europe. Is that not where/how the Holocaust started? Isn't denial one of the first steps in that direction?
Where is this anti Semitism? Outside of a few right wing Nazi types and Muslim immigrants it does not exist, at least not here in Germany, I doubt it is different in most other Euro countries. I asked my best friend, a secular Jew from the Pfälz and he feels the same way.
Currently many Jews are moving to Germany to get out of Israel.
Of course in the Muslim population there seems to be an almost universal anti Zionist to Anti Semitism, but really this is being hugely over blown.
No go zones just do not exist, they are sketchy areas for sure but you can find those anywhere.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 29, 2015 - 01:28pm PT
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mcolombo: perhaps the reason people get concerned about this is because Hitler's rise to power began with "only" a few right wing Nazi types.
Isn't Germany supposed to have laws to prevent those scum from assembling in the first place?
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 29, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
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Timid TopRope: What?
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 29, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
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The Kaiser, an anti-semite, went into exile in the Netherlands in 1918 - long before Hitler came to power in 1933. I repeat... what?
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jan 29, 2015 - 06:48pm PT
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Timid TopRope: My respect to you for admitting the error - perhaps you were thinking of Hindenburg. Most people would agree that origins of the cancer of Nazism are complex, but the results, unfortunately, are beyond rational dispute.
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