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marky
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 21, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
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manuals on helpful stuff, like tying knots or rigging anchors? that would be more enlightening and of greater social value than its "flowchart" for ascending the guide totem pole, or info on how to pay dues.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 21, 2006 - 06:53pm PT
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they have a manual, it's expensive, Andyou (at least used to) have to get an associate membership to get one.
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TimM
Trad climber
somewhere on the Sierra Eastside
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Sep 21, 2006 - 08:00pm PT
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I got a manual from the AMGA. I got it free when I took their Rock Instructor course :-) About half of the material was general info and the other half was guiding-related info that would be of no use to the general climber.
marky, I don't know why you think you are entitled to a manual from the AMGA. They are not in the business of giving out "manuals" to the general public but training people with existing climbing skills to be guides and promote guiding as a profession.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 21, 2006 - 08:08pm PT
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DIY manuels probably aren't the best promotional material for what they're selling.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Sep 21, 2006 - 08:14pm PT
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^ an astute observation.....hahaha
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 21, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
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If you ask me, even people not yet ready to lead should know how to do a counter balance rappel in order to evacuate an injured leader.
But around here we have "experts" who can't even rig a hanging station.
I commend anyone who seeks to put a few more skills in their repertoire.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 21, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
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I think the AMGA would have more credibility if they published their standards in advance and in detail, and simply tested perspective guides on their abilties.
Forcing folks to take many thousands of dollars of courses to get certified is a disservice to the climbing community and I think we should hold the AMGA's feet to the fire until they reform. They bought off a bunch of old-schoolers by "grandfathering" them but those days are now over.
A separate organization may provide courses for prospective guides but I think all conflicts of interest between trainers and certifiers should be eliminated so the expert dirtbag can get a job.
Peace
Karl
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Sep 21, 2006 - 10:15pm PT
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I totally echo what Karl said above. It's about openess and transparency. Without that you don't have anything.
I used to be an examiner in NZ and one to the things I used to do at the start of every course was to ensure that everyone had their copy of the course guidelines and assessment sheet. This was sent out to participants about 2 months before the course. It would list all the tasks that you would be examined on, the number of points that are awarded to it and the past mark required. Depending of what the topic was some would be more heavily weighted than others. Cooking might be out of 10 marks with a past mark of 6, whereas Client Safety might be out of 30 marks and have a past mark of 25. Everything had a tangible standard that you knew by your actions whether you were above or below the standard.
We also had a technical manual (hundred or so pages thick) that we worked on with assistance of the ACMG and and we had assessors from the US come to NZ to observe on our courses to help them with the assessment process. And visa versa. I observed on a course in the Serrias and one in the Cascades.
All these documents and manuals are available at a miminal charge that covers the cost of producing them. Back home anyone can buy them and they are often used as reference material for club type courses etc. Inparticular a lot of climbers purchase the technical manual for its steep rock/ice rescue sections.
I'm disappointed to hear that the amga hasn't come further than this, but accept that a lot of this takes time and in a country as large as the usa it just takes a lot longer to do these things.
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 21, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
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I don't see it as a conflict of interest. I did NOT get grandfathered, but after participating in the generation of course curriculum I was able to fast track and go right to the very first exam.
It wasn't easy, and I barely passed.
I think that if a viable candidate presented a resume then he/she could do the same, but many self-appointed "expert guides" despite possessing guiding experience do not also possess the requisite skills and have been skating by.
Its not a hustle but rather a sensible progression that fosters broad capabilities.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 21, 2006 - 10:56pm PT
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I think you are right Ron-bo. People should know rescue techniques for self and leader before they get very far into climbing.
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marky
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2006 - 11:03pm PT
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I don't see how AMGA is disadvantaged by putting content into the public domain.
Incidentally, two weekends ago I ran into two guides (and their clients) on separate days, one a complete as#@&%e, the other very generous. I conjecture that the as#@&%e was AMGA-certified and the fun, safety-minded guide was independent. Just a guess.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 21, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
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Not what I would consider a good basis for conjecture, Marky.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 21, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
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Ron wrote
"I don't see it as a conflict of interest. I did NOT get grandfathered, but after participating in the generation of course curriculum I was able to fast track and go right to the very first exam.
It wasn't easy, and I barely passed.
I think that if a viable candidate presented a resume then he/she could do the same, but many self-appointed "expert guides" despite possessing guiding experience do not also possess the requisite skills and have been skating by.
Its not a hustle but rather a sensible progression that fosters broad capabilities."
It seems you didn't have to pay for the courses. How much do they cost and how many folks, after this next set of exams, will be able to circumvent them?
My understanding is that the courses will now be required. If somebody cares to refute that, please be sure you have the right info so we'll be properly informed.
I heard it from a few household name climbers who were debating whether to take the "last chance" to test with courses. One is doing it. The other said "Why bother when the permit system in the US prevents certified guides from guiding in most public lands without working for a contracted service?"
Also, you generated the content, are beyond experienced, and you barely passed. Doesn't seem right to me.
And my understanding is that doing it a 'safe' way isn't enough, you have to do it the AMGA way, which is why I would call for the AMGA way to be published and for training courses to be run completely separate from AMGA to eliminate the money grubbing and give a chance to the guy who doesn't have $5-10,000 to blow.
Come on Ron, you didn't pay, would you have paid?
Peace
Karl
Edit: The AMGA site still shows the possibility of challenging the course. Here's the info. Since one of the requirements is
"have complete understanding and mastery of every technique and skill presented in the Advanced Rock Guide Course and the Rock Instructor Course"
That makes me thinkk those techniques and skills should be public domain knowledge for those who can't afford their courses
++++++
Challenging the Rock Guide Certification Exam
If you wish to challenge the Rock Guide Certification Exam without fulfilling the above prereq-uisites,
you may do so, but you will need to meet additional requirements. There are 2 common sce-narios
under which experienced guides occasionally challenge the exam;
• Guides who have not taken the Rock Instructor Course, the Advanced Rock Guide Course, or
the Rock Instructor Certification Exam. These guides must fulfill Prerequisites #1 on this
page.
• Guides who are AMGA Certified Rock Instructors, but have not taken the Advanced Rock
Guide Course must fulfill Prerequisites #2 on the following page.
Although this shortcut method is possible, it is not recommended. Past
exams have demonstrated that participants who have taken a course
prior to an exam do better than those who have not.
Challenge Prerequisites #1
Required for experienced guides who have not taken the Rock Instructor Course, the Advanced Rock
Guide Course, or the Rock Instructor Certification Exam:
1) obtain written authorization from the AMGA Technical Director;
2) have complete understanding and mastery of every technique and skill presented in the
Advanced Rock Guide Course and the Rock Instructor Course;
3) provide a resume of guide training including skills covered, dates of training, routes, trainers,
and curriculum. Include contact information for the person(s) who furnished your training;
4) have completed at least 400 days of documented and diverse, professional guiding (paid) in
the last eight years (you must list and identify these 400 days);
5) provide 2 letters of reference from 2 Certified Rock Guides indicating suitability for this
exam;
6) have at least eight years of climbing experience;
7) are a current Individual Member of the AMGA;
8) provide a personal climbing resume of at least 50 multi-pitch traditional climbs within the
last 2 years, showing each of the following;
a) that you have led or shared lead on at least 50 different, multi-pitch routes, including at
least 5 routes Grade IV or longer and at least 4 routes Grade V or longer;
b) that you have led at least 20 traditional routes rated 5.10c A2 or harder (if these are
multi-pitch, they may be included in the 50 above);
9) can safely and comfortably lead crack and face climbs rated 5.10c, A2 at the time of the exam.
10) are at least age 18;
11) have current Wilderness First Responder certification.
Challenge Prerequisites #2
Required for experienced guides who are AMGA Certified Rock Instructors, but have not taken the
Advanced Rock Guide Course:
1) obtain written authorization from the AMGA Technical Director;
2) have complete understanding and mastery of every technique and skill presented in the
Advanced Rock Guide Course;
3) provide a resume of guide training including skills covered, dates of training, routes, trainers,
and curriculum. Include contact information for the person(s) who furnished your training;
4) have completed at least 200 days of documented and diverse, professional guiding (paid) in
the last eight years (you must list and identify these 200 days);
5) provide 2 letters of reference from 2 Certified Rock Guides indicating suitability for this
exam;
6) have at least five years of climbing experience;
7) are a current Individual Member of the AMGA;
8) provide a personal climbing resume of at least 50 multi-pitch traditional climbs within the
last 2 years, showing each of the following;
a) that you have led or shared lead on at least 50 different, multi-pitch routes, including at
least 5 routes Grade IV or longer and at least 4 routes Grade V or longer;
b) that you have led at least 20 traditional routes rated 5.10c A2 or harder (if these are
multi-pitch, they may be included in the 50 above);
9) can safely and comfortably lead crack and face climbs rated 5.10c, A2 at the time of the exam.
10) are at least age 18;
11) have current Wilderness First Responder certification.
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alasdair
Trad climber
scotland
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Sep 22, 2006 - 12:41am PT
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from a euro perspective the AMGA look kind of interesting very american and covering a full range of abilities and activities.
In the UK we have a two tier system, to work in the UK (required for schools) you need a Mountain leader ticket 1 week course 1 week assesment
there are progression awards of the same duration for winter mountains and technical instruting
The only way to guide in the alps is become IFGMA certified. in the UK you need to do A LOT (5 1000m technical alpine routes, 50 5,10 multi pitch)of climbing and skiing to start the British mountain guide scheme. and it costs about $10k
so maybe the AMGA is not such a bad deal? though it seems like a lot of courses, whereas we train very established climbers
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 22, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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Why Karl, you past posting trickster. I sense a certain degree of hostility here. lol
OK, its glass number 4 about to be filled and dinner was great but this is worth addressing as, indeed, I do have a horse in this race.
Your post betrays what I suspect to be the two most common misassumptions about certification.
First and foremost that the cert exam is a test of climbing skill.
Wrong.
In fact, your mention of "household name climbers" shows that many people would assume that the harder a person climbs the better a guide they would be. Often enough the truth is opposite. Would you really want to be guided by somebody who can't tell the difference between YOUR limit and two grades harder?
What's more, the guide's tool box contains many skills rarely employed by high end climbers.
There are plenty of other reasons but I won't belabor the point as I consider misassumption #2 to be the more important misconception.
The exam is not meant to see if the candidate possesses the requisite skill.
Really!
This is important. Read that line again!
By the time that an aspirant reaches the exam he/she needs to have ALREADY DEMONSTRATED ACQUISITION OF ALL NEEDED SKILLS.
That's because the exam is about the JUDGMENT with which those skills are implemented.
THAT'S why the song and dance BEFORE the exam.
That list that you tacked on looks quite extensive. I hadn't seen it before. But I don't see anything offhand unjustified when I consider this second and VERY important point.
Yes I participated (in a minor way) to the course curriculum but, at least in my case, there were other considerations that weighed on my suitability to be among the first ten certified resulting in my barely passing.
We will not go there, but the gun did not have a round chambered.
Now where's my glass?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 22, 2006 - 12:50am PT
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Oh yeah, thanks Aldair.
Moulah!!!
You say 5-10K. Sounds steep but say you're right.
How much does it cost to become a doctor? Lawyer?
Yet both professionals could hold the lives of their clients in their hands.
Just because guides are underpaid (and that should change) doesn't mean they should be underskilled as well.
Now where's that glass?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 22, 2006 - 12:52am PT
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How about the fuking client that holds the guides life in their hands!
Kim Schmitz's scenario comes to mind ......
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 22, 2006 - 12:55am PT
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C'est la guerre, Werner.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 22, 2006 - 01:14am PT
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Ron wrote"
"Your post betrays what I suspect to be the two most common misassumptions about certification.
First and foremost that the cert exam is a test of climbing skill.
Wrong. "
No hostility Ron, but you are the one making assumptions. I'm quite aware of what the exam tests.
Next
"In fact, your mention of "household name climbers" shows that many people would assume that the harder a person climbs the better a guide they would be. Often enough the truth is opposite. Would you really want to be guided by somebody who can't tell the difference between YOUR limit and two grades harder?
What's more, the guide's tool box contains many skills rarely employed by high end climbers. "
More assumptions based on the fact I was quoting well known climbers. Both these guys have guided both here and abroad for years, and are well versed in climbing with folks of all abilties. They've held top positions in national climbing organizations as well, and although both have climbed for over 2O years, neither has been involved in an accident due to error or neglect.
Next
"There are plenty of other reasons but I won't belabor the point as I consider misassumption #2 to be the more important misconception.
The exam is not meant to see if the candidate possesses the requisite skill.
Really!
This is important. Read that line again!
By the time that an aspirant reaches the exam he/she needs to have ALREADY DEMONSTRATED ACQUISITION OF ALL NEEDED SKILLS.
That's because the exam is about the JUDGMENT with which those skills are implemented.
THAT'S why the song and dance BEFORE the exam. "
What does any of this have to do with the fact that the AMGA basically requires climbers to take it's expensive courses to pass it's exam whether they have those skills and judgement already or not? That's the question I'm asking and none other.
I think the AMGA skills and procedures are fine and dandy. I understand the difference between guiding and climbing. My one and only point is that climbers can get this experience and knowledge without spending $10,000 on the AMGA. The standards and procedures can be published online or in a $100 book. Climbers can learn it on their own or with their own mentors. It can be tested one on one with an AMGA examiner during a $350 day on the rock.
Yes guides are underpaid and that's not going to change in this country. A guided day already costs folks between $220 and $400 (not including walls and such) and there are limits to what folks will spend. So that leaves any pay increase to depend on the division of proceeds between the guide service owners and their guides. In many, many areas, it's a seasonal job no matter how you slice it.
From what I've seen, this percentage guides make seems to be going down rather than up, as services create a two tier system of paying their guides. A lower rate for uncertified or just hired "apprentice" guides, and the higher rate (same as the old rate for everybody) for certified, put-in-their-years guides.
Where's the beef? It's not as if there were nasty strings of accidents and deaths under the old pre-AMGA system. I think YMS had a perfect safety record before the advent of AMGA.
If AMGA can open up guiding to their certified guides on public lands in the US, then they will have done something for us all. As it is, they've defined a problem whose existence was doubtful and imposed a solution that priced many sincere climbers out of contention.
They do offer some $250 and $500 scholarships, but that doesn't put much of a dent in $10,000. Can guides get student loans and pell grants?
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 22, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
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Looks like Karl should have been on the board. He has all the answers.
So all that is needed is a single day on the rock with only one examiner for $350? This is enough to "test" judgment?
And what, this is preceded by a written "skills" test?
I'm disappointed in you Karl.
I didn't realize when I read your stuff before that you had a tendency to expound on that which you are little familiar with, or go off half cocked.
Its not just about access to public land or how big a piece of the pie a guide gets (a pie which you apparently feel cannot get larger).
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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Karl, it is just wrong to say that the skills needed for this subject can be dealt with adequately in a 100 dollar book or a couple days instruction, or even both. Every book has errors, and a couple of days just isn't much time.
You can't even get a WFR cert without 9 days of 8 hour a day training, plus written exams and practicals, and I feel that this is another minimum requirement to take people out into the wild. Plus you have to recert every 3 years on the WFR. The 9 day thing had I think about 10 or 12 people and the cost was about 600 bucks, not inclucing meals or rooms. It's probably more now though.
Tooo bad the AMGA does not have some
I will agree the AMGA charges a lot of money for those courses. That could be because someone is trying to make a living teaching and certifying, and because there are not very many applicants.
It's to bad more people won't part with some cash to get training from certified qualified guides, cause then the prices might come down a little.
About schooled vs grandfathered in:
I've got grandfathered friends and schooled friends from the AMGA, they liked the courses, Um, NONE are a$$holes, they're good climbers, all great guys, but one stands above the others in regard to safety at all times.
On the other hand some of the best climbers I know have no affiliation with the AMGA whatsoever, and really have not had any formal training in rescue.
Shameless Plug:
Hie thee to your nearest qualified instructor for some self n leader reacue training. You may never need it, but you will learn things you can use every time you climb anyway, and if you ever do need the critical part of what you learn, you'll have a better shot at success.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:41pm PT
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I'm personally find it sad to see the U.S. go down this very Euro road, but after about the first 10 years of gyms the commercialization was unstoppable, the opportunity was there, and now gyms and guides are in a permanent symbiotic relationship that does unfortunately need to be regulated. As to how that's come about in the U.S., well, I think there was bound to be a bit of messiness there.
What I find as a bit disconcerting is a) the almost cult-like way it all unfolded and has been maintained which, given I don't get involved, I can live with, and b) the fact that now you run across kids on-line and off who say "the AMGA says this has to be done this way" or "that's not the AMGA way" as though the voice of god had handed down a set of tablets to the AMGA. Now that's not entirely their fault given climbers do not exactly learn to think for themselves in gyms and also it's due in part simply to the way our icon/media driven culture works today.
But as you yourself pointed, Ron, the best guides are not necessarily or always the best climbers, so it's understandable that they would need settle on some common technical cirriculum for consistency's sake. The problem is the setting of this stuff in stone and the elevation of AMGA guides as the "only" folks with any "real" expertise. Many of us have climbed at a high level and guided and trained several generations of climbers over decades without a fee, and it is disconcerting at times to witness this inadvertant establishment of the myth that the AMGA is the only font and resevoir of expertise and experience.
I'll grant you that is the real problem - [paying] noobs can't be expected to know the difference - and so some label is necessary to allow them to discern a minimum competency set. But that is what it is - a set of certifications that an individual possesses a base level of competencies and experience - not that they have been graced by the hand of god. No doubt it's all an indication that someone is doing a great job at and for the AMGA, but as an old guy it is still irritating as sh#t at times nonetheless...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:48pm PT
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There is no law that says you need to be AMGA certified to guide, is there?
It has been my experience that most clients who are n00bs have never heard of the AMGA.
Perhaps it could help for liability reasons (i.e. getting sued due to injury), or getting hired on Exum or some other outfit.
But I have known plenty of guides who have done just fine for themselves with no certifications.
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LuckyPink
Mountain climber
north bay today/someplace else tomorrow
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
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Hey, have you ever looked at the AMGA roster? Ever notice who is NOT on it?? So many top level professional US climbers are absent from this list. That says plenty. I've run across too many AMGA guides that need guiding.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 22, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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Lucy, you need to read a little better. Its not about the ability to climb very difficult routes.
Joe,
I don't think that the AMGA is the ONLY way, but who else offers the public a consistent standard AND has UIAGM parity?
Really folks, many people seem to be woefully unaware of the complexities that have been a part of this quagmire for decades.
I only wish that these issues could be addressed as easily as some believe.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2006 - 03:42pm PT
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Ron,
I don't think there is anything simple about the explosion of climbing in raw numbers driven by gyms and the attending commercializations such as guiding. And as I said and agreed - that drove a real need for some sort of "stamp" on guiding. But I've talked to a number of old friends and partners who inquired with the AMGA who are in the outdoor business and are extremely competent / experienced, and several of whom are educators as well. They all related the exact same "who's cousin do you have to blow to get involved with this crew" experience. The cloistered / cult / need-to-know-someone aspect of it, the way they were treated, and the steep fees all sat very badly with the folks I know who otherwise would have added a lot to any such organization.
But, my take on it is there is no easy or clean way to put any such rubric around the herd of distempered cats that are climbers in this country...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 22, 2006 - 03:47pm PT
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Don't know why I even got involved.
I'm not blowing any more distempered cats anyway.
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LuckyPink
Mountain climber
north bay today/someplace else tomorrow
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Sep 22, 2006 - 04:15pm PT
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of course it's about supposedly certifying guides, but to be an effective organization in US rock and mountaineering AMGA has to be embraced by or contribute to the culture of successful climbers and mountaineers. So far AMGA gives off a commercialized air of self serving importance as expressed by some of the posters here. A better approach would be to provide a service to the community that our professional and successful elite climbers of today can support.
AMGA should decide if it wants to be a certification board (with some kind of public input) or a guide training commercial enterprise.
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TimM
Trad climber
somewhere on the Sierra Eastside
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Sep 22, 2006 - 04:24pm PT
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WBraun, what exactly was "Kim Schmitz's scenario" ??
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Derek
climber
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Sep 22, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
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As an aside, has anyone actually called the AMGA and asked if the manual is for sale? I'd be surprised if it isn't at any price. But if not, I have 2 copies...Name your price! You might also call the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides. The manuals are identical, and Canadians are nicer than we are. They might sell them. But even if you get your hands on a copy, the idea that it's some magic tome containing all you need to know to guide well is ludicrous.
On a personal note, I guided for many years before I drank the AMGA coolaid and participated in the courses. I have to say that while I didn't learn anything earth shattering, I did learn quite a bit, and am certainly a better guide for my AMGA experiences. I also experienced absolutely none of the insular clique mentality folks have complained of here.
The point about the AMGA making up it's mind about whether they want to be an independent certifying body or a commercial training organization is the most interesting part of this thread. There have been some recent changes that suggest this question is being considered at least in some form at the board level. I'm thinking primarily of the fact that qualified guide services are now allowed to run AMGA-santioned TRSM and Rock Instructor courses independent of the AMGA (after paying a licensing fee for use of the curriculum). It will be interesting to watch the organization grow. Remember, it's a young one at present.
-Derek
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marky
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2006 - 04:50pm PT
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Derek, I will pay $7 for your AMGA manual.
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tburn
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 20, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
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The AMGA has some very serious problems to say the least.
I has become nothing more than an occupation for no experienced climbers who are kids of rich people wanting something to do outside of collecting their trust fund payments.
The guides they certify these days clearly have little to no Mountain Sense because nearly 10 of them have died in the last ten years, many while guiding people including leaving clients abandoned and even killing them in Basic Courses.
No wonder they don't want to publish anything, I would either!
Do the research folks! After last summers accident on the Grand Teton with Falk you need not look too much farther.
You are your best guide and do not rely on the Government of ever Help You along with the AMGA.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Nov 20, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
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I have to put in a plug here for "The Mountain Guide Manual: The Comprehensive Reference--From Belaying to Rope Systems and Self-Rescue", by Marc Chauvin & Rob Coppolillo. From what I hear its becoming the de facto training manual for the AMGA.
I've been reading it now and then over the last couple weeks and its excellent. I'm not about to try write a review, but will say that its helping me a lot in rethinking the way I do things. Its the best book for climbing systems I've seen in a long time.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 20, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
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Only 5.10c?
I think the ACMG requires Assistant Rock Guides course attendees to on sight 11b sport and 10d trad (with a pack for the trad)
The examiners have fun when they get a few pitches up the Grand Wall (If course is at Squamish) wait until one of the aspirants has led out greater than half a rope length, then say "Can you get a piece of bomber gear?"
The aspirant guide puts it in, examiner says "You have just fallen and are unconscious, hang off the rope"
Examiner says to other aspirant "Unweight the belay, tie off, and do the rescue"
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 20, 2017 - 11:13pm PT
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I am surprised by some of the posting. I can't quite fathom why any testing organization would not publish exactly what they would be testing upon.
You don't have to limit to climbing, there are many other activities that have comparable challenges. I'm a sailing instructor, for example. The ASA published everything that you need to know to pass a certification, either for sailing certification, or for instructor certification. I've been involved in examining many prospective instructors, and have been continually amazed at what skills they show up WITHOUT.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:10am PT
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Nov 21, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
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I gave that guy marky a ride to the eastside several years ago.
The experience made me rethink my entire willingness to give strangers off the internet a ride... I don't think I've done it since.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
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I met a couple of aspirant guides from Chamonix while in Indian Creek in 2010. Those guys were badass. They were way better climbers then most of the AMGA certified guides I have met and then they were just apirants. Sounded like they had a pretty rigorous program as well as a culture of professionalism more so then say, American trust fund guides. One of them, Fred Degoulet just completed a new route on Nupste.
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web17f/newswire-new-route-on-nuptse-south-face
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brian n
Sport climber
Manchester, WA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:08pm PT
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The manuals they publish can be found for sale on Ebay, occasionally.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:10pm PT
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I agree Robert L, I find American guides, in general, to be more client friendly than their European counterparts. Of course, there are numerous exceptions.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Nov 22, 2017 - 08:11am PT
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You cannot be taught to be a good guide. Guiding requires far more skills than can be learned in any number of courses. Experience is highly important, but the ability to think independently is a most essential skill.
A manual is useless during a storm with an injured client; the skills required to effect a rescue should be so well ingrained, that any manual creates limitations. As Andy Carson, former owner of Jackson Hole Mountain Guides, often said: "Rules are for fools". Every situation is different, and the best solution to every incident will not be found in your manual when you need it.
If you want to be a guide climb everything in sight. Only after years of climbing and thousands of pitches of experience will you be close to skillful enough to ensure the safety of others.
I can't count the times I have seen "certified guides" create unsafe situations, hog anchors, and generally put everyone nearby at risk.Most of the best guides I know are not certified, nor will they ever be.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Nov 22, 2017 - 08:17am PT
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Note the crossloaded biners clipped to chain link and bolt hangar. A shockload on either of the two biners poses a serious crossload risk which could easily be avoided by clipping beneath the chains and links. This is sloppy and should never be used as an example
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Nov 23, 2017 - 08:54am PT
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While I have met some very good NOLS and AMGA people, in my opinion they cater to the trustafarian elite. The insecure trustafarian resents those of us who got our knowlege, experience, status and power on our own. They aim to use regulations to prevent us from having a piece of their pie to which they feel they are entitled. The cost of AMGA and NOLS courses makes this very clear to me. These self proclaimed regulators have gained a power monopoly through government regulation and permit processes that are the antithesis of what free climbing represents. Just watch what these agencies or their certified contractors do when they find out youve been pirate guiding on their turf! I will admit that I have been lucky that I have gotten a free pass from the major contractors where I pirate guide. They were generous enough to share the rock with me and I am grateful. But should a guide really have to ask permission? Is this a Monarchy?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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Yeah, I agree.... chainsaw
This AMGA horsesh!t is all about power, money and controlling people.
Guys like me don't need these st00pid caveman tools.
Just follow me and do as I do is the freelance motto :-)
Just grab the rock and start climbing.
"Hey, where's the rope?" the client asks.
"You don't need no stinkin rope, they just get in the way duuude."
You learn rope stuff after you learn how to grab sh!t and use your feet on the rock first.
"Huh??? WTF???"
LOL ... just see my client runaway.
"Hey, you come back here now! We ain't finished yet ......"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 23, 2017 - 09:23am PT
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It’s a brave new world
of regulations, agencies, and buhlsh!t.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Nov 23, 2017 - 11:47am PT
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As usual Werner tells it like it is: "This AMGA horsesh!t is all about power, money and controlling people." I agree that AMGA is mostly geared towards the trustafarian elite who play at guiding for a few years before assuming the helm of the family enterprise, but there are also a handful of badass, real deal, climbers who just happen to be certified despite their abilities.
I used to work for an un-named guide service at a popular area in S. California. One day, while co-teaching a large group, my boss, now an AMGA examiner, was teaching the "California Death Triangle", two ratty slings through two Leeper bolt hangars clipped at the bottom of the triangle with a single locking biner as a good anchor. The guy in question may be a skilled free climber and owner of a successful guide service, but is not qualified to teach basic classes and certainly not qualified to examine guides
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Nov 23, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
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Chainsaw I agree to a point. Like Scot said there are still some highly qualified guides out there. Problem with guiding in the U.S. is that even if you do get certified the concessionaires own the permits and make the profits and they have control over who guides there.
I did my share of private pirate guiding both here in the states and Europe, Canada, South America, and Nepal when I was young. If I was still a guide I would go with either Canada’s ACMG or IFMGA definitely have not been impressed with AMGA attitude.
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gruzzy
Social climber
socal
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Nov 24, 2017 - 12:55am PT
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Hands on experience and technical know how would seem to both be imporant in the making of a guide. I would want a certified guide with years of experience. The training im sure gives guides skills that they have never used ithe years of recreational climvini
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gruzzy
Social climber
socal
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Nov 24, 2017 - 12:58am PT
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IMHO if you dont bother with certification, youre doing it half assed
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 24, 2017 - 06:32am PT
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I don't know anything about how the AMGA's implementation of guiding education and standards works and doesn't work. Maybe reforms are in order; I have no idea. But the idea that a profession as demanding as guiding, with all the various disciplines having to be mastered and the extensive responsibility for the safety of clients involved, the idea that such an activity should be devoid of independent certification standards that would protect the consumer and guarantee a high minimal level of competence is, in my opinion, absurd.
I'd also add that guiding has special challenges not encountered by even experienced climbers, so the idea that an extensive climbing resume is sufficient qualification for guiding is seriously flawed.
Fully certified guides are getting the mountaineering equivalent of a PhD. At that level of education, 25k sounds to me like a bargain.
As for the OP's query about manuals, it is now several years old and out of date, as the AMGA seems to be publishing videos as well as books.
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