Has anyone ever here changed a deeply-held belief?

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eeyonkee

Trad climber

Golden, CO

Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 21, 2015 - 06:00pm PT

Because of something they've read here, that is. Is anyone now an atheist who was formerly a believer or vice versa? Is anyone now a hangdogger who was formerly a traditionalist (but seriously, folks)? Does anybody concede that human-caused global warming is true who formerly thought otherwise? Are humans capable of changing deeply held beliefs?

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:03pm PT

I used to think climbers were smart ;-)

eeyonkee

Trad climber

Golden, CO

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2015 - 06:06pm PT

I'm just hoping that you're not calling me a hangdogger, ksolem.

zBrown

Ice climber

Brujò de la Playa

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:07pm PT

None of the three you mentioned, but yes.

EDIT: Whoops, misread the OP. The answer is no. In fact nothing I've read here has changed even a loosely held belief, or even one I was neutral on.

skcreidc

Social climber

SD, CA

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:09pm PT

Are humans capable of changing deeply held beliefs?

That is the real question, isn't it. But this site, changed my deeply held beliefs? No, only re-inforced them.

couchmaster

climber

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:10pm PT

No, not at all. But reading the various posts makes me realize that there are a lot of d-bags and addelpated idiots, like Gary and Mechrist, running around out there. There are a few super sharp ST folks who's posts I always read carefully and give weight to. Rgold and Clint Cummins, are good examples of that although there are plenty more, yet I don't believe either of them have been posting their political or religious beliefs. They post to technical issues related to climbing, climbing history and routes generally.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:20pm PT

Hey! Gary is a good man. I don't always agree with him but jeez, a d-bag? Over the top.

ground_up

Trad climber

mt. hood /baja

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:23pm PT

Yes...I think we are capable of changing deeply held beliefs

Mark Force

Trad climber

Cave Creek, AZ

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:35pm PT

I used to hold the belief nuclear energy was a really effin' bad idea, but I'm really excited about the possibilities of thorium-driven nuclear reactors.

Does that count?

Mark Force

Trad climber

Cave Creek, AZ

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:41pm PT

Yeah, right, DMT, I'm buyin' that....

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:52pm PT

I've changed a weakly held opinion and recognized a few errors of mine due to supertopo.

Does that count?

Hmm deeply held belief? I have one I can think of. I exist. Another is that You Exist. Although I am just slightly less sure of that. Probably can't change my thoughts on that without destroying my brain. But then I'd suspect I would cease to exist. Not sure about that though.

I have some strong opinions that can be changed but take pretty solid evidence.

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Jan 21, 2015 - 07:02pm PT

Jody and Werner made me rethink my position on cops having assault weapons.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

Nothing creative to say

Jan 21, 2015 - 07:08pm PT

I've seen this thread before. Almost same title. I swear!

to the OP, not deeply held arguments, no. Usually they are well reasoned by then and hyperbole, illogic, and self-assertions don't sway arguments in directions. They create stalemates.

zBrown

Ice climber

Brujò de la Playa

Jan 21, 2015 - 07:19pm PT

Interesting that Jaybro brought up Jody. I actually listened (well read) what Jody and Fatrrad had to say and tried to see the world from their perspectives. The times however, were not a changin'. I did change my initial perception of both fellows though.

eeyonkee

Trad climber

Golden, CO

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2015 - 07:28pm PT

So Munge, it wasn't me was it?

Gary

Social climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Jan 21, 2015 - 07:31pm PT

Kris, thanks, man.

couchmaster,

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

mammoth lakes ca

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:12pm PT

Did he ever get his green card...?

HighTraverse

Trad climber

Bay Area

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:12pm PT

concede that human-caused global warming is likely true

Likely is not nearly good enough. There is NO meaningful scientific doubt.
Scientists are by nature skeptical. They will always question each other's data and conclusions but they won't change their minds on this subject except by overwhelming evidence. The body of verifiable evidence is substantial and overwhelms and "denier" conclusions so far. Regardless of what Murdoch/Koch Faux Newz you may hear to the contrary.

I've changed strongly (not deeply) held opinions but not from any discussions here.
About 8 years ago, The Economist had a brilliant article completely destroying any rational reason to oppose marriage between people of the same sex.
I had been feeling odd about it for several years. I couldn't think of a rational reason to oppose it but had lingering doubts. (likely because I grew up in Salt Lick City Utaaahhr where being gay was not just "icky" but likely to leave you ostracised from "polite" society). I changed my mind overnight.

It is indeed possible to allow rational thought to change your opinions.

Mark Force

Trad climber

Cave Creek, AZ

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:16pm PT

It is indeed possible to allow rational thought to change your opinions.

Yes!

The gay marriage issue is easy. It is a basic right/libery for any two adults to enter into marriage. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks about it.

HighTraverse

Trad climber

Bay Area

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:18pm PT

Jaybro

rethink my position on cops having assault weapons.

It all depends on context.
The cop on the street. No way.
A small, highly trained and disciplined Reaction Force is essential. But they sure as H**L shouldn't have MRAPs.
And they'd da**ed well better not break down doors and terrorize families for any reason other than to stop violence in process.
But don't let me get back on that soapbox.

MisterE

Gym climber

Bishop, CA

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:22pm PT

Are humans capable of changing deeply held beliefs?

Yes, but rarely, if ever through on-line discourse on a forum.

WBraun

climber

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:28pm PT

Beliefs won't help much unless one ultimately has proof ......

Mark Force

Trad climber

Cave Creek, AZ

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:34pm PT

But, Werner, we are all full of beliefs with no proof!

Prod

Trad climber

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:36pm PT

I would say that yes intelligent inquisitive people are capable of changing deeply held beliefs. But.... forums, maybe especially this one, are not a great venue to explore other beliefs.

Prod.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber

Will know soon

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:42pm PT

Yep!

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:46pm PT

At some point I learned that vegetables taste good.

nita

Social climber

chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:52pm PT

Hey! Gary is a good man

I totally agree with Ksolem.....

The person calling Gary out.........No comment .

Wayno

Big Wall climber

Seattle, WA

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:54pm PT

Yes. I'm a fence sitter

Doesn't that hurt your ass and your nards? Try being a fence-walker, it requires balance.

Yuk yuk. Sorry dude, you left yourself wide open. ;)

Mark Force

Trad climber

Cave Creek, AZ

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:59pm PT

The gay issue is easy from a libertarian perspective.

Barry Goldwater was once asked what he thought about gays in the military. He said, "You don't have to be straight to shoot straight!"

Here is a portion of a commentary Barry Goldwater wrote concerning the ban of gays from the military...

The conservative movement, to which I subscribe, has as one of its basic tenets the belief that government should stay out of people's private lives. Government governs best when it governs least - and stays out of the impossible task of legislating morality. But legislating someone's version of morality is exactly what we do by perpetuating discrimination against gays.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Jan 21, 2015 - 08:59pm PT

I can't say it was BECAUSE of Supertopo, but if you go back far enough in my posting history you will see the 23-year old right wing conservative repeating things his elders said were undeniable truths before a maturation process kicked in.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Especially regarding religion, gay rights, social issues and race. A whole lotta maturin' in the last 7-8 years.

Gary

Social climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Jan 21, 2015 - 09:02pm PT

Nita, you are too kind. Couchmaster is OK, too. All of us here agree on a lot more things than we disagree on, that's my guess.

Climbers of all types have a common bond. Two of my best climbing partners are to the right of George W Bush, but that's the least important thing about them.

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber

extraordinaire

Jan 21, 2015 - 09:14pm PT

i had a deeply held belief i was rad until i got here and read about everyone else.

jgill

Boulder climber

Colorado

Jan 21, 2015 - 09:28pm PT

Not deeply-held beliefs, but some of the posts on the "Mind" and "Politics vs Science" threads have altered the way I think about certain subjects. Postings on meditation have given me a broader perspective of the practices. Also, I've changed my mind on "free will" and moved into the mechanistic camp. Ed's posts on physics have been particularly illuminating. Postings on climate change haven't led to any epiphanies, and postings on atheism vs religion are flat-out boring.

Postings about climbing have had virtually no effect on my thinking, other than difficulty continues to increase in one way or another. Nothing surprising there.

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Jan 21, 2015 - 09:29pm PT

Flip Flop

Trad climber

Truckee, CA

Jan 21, 2015 - 09:48pm PT

I used to believe in Astrology and Crop Circles.
I used to believe that climbers had special powers of reasoning.
I used to think that climbing was safe.(can't credit the taco but cheers to the campfire)
I used to think that Werner was sane. Then I learned, here, that we are all nuts.
I used to be more tolerant of 'Murican muscular christian crusaders with righteous blood-lust and guns.
I used to think that Kiwis were funny.
I used to think that the ethics debate would die like ballet skiing.
I used to think that I'd find some frenchies in here( to mock).
I used to think that the Edlinger chalk-blow was passé among the elite.
I used to think that my hit list was in the past.

Actually I never believed in Astrology but crop circles had me scratching my head.

Edit: Mr Gill, you are recognized as the the man who introduced gymnastic chalk. Is the Edlinger chalk-blow a thing? It's probably from pictures of the World Cup at Snowbird. My first partner taught me to blow the chalk as a reminder for a full exhale before sequences. Do gymnasts do it also. Were you blowing chalk off your hands in the beginning? Much respect. Apologies for general religious intolerance. It's not personal just a duty as a humanist.

Fish Finder

Social climber

Jan 21, 2015 - 10:12pm PT

I used to believe that Russ was a member of this forum

jgill

Boulder climber

Colorado

Jan 21, 2015 - 10:20pm PT

Is the Edlinger chalk-blow a thing? . . . My first partner taught me to blow the chalk as a reminder for a full exhale before sequences. Do gymnasts do it also. Were you blowing chalk off your . . .

Wow, the topics that pop up on ST! I don't recall blowing on my hands, whether in gymnastics or climbing, but some gymnasts may do this. PSP was a gymnast and he might answer this question if he reads this thread. When I would dip my hands in the chalk basin in the gym I would pat them together once or twice, but I don't recall blowing on them. And much of the time when I climbed I carried a block and would rub it on and go directly to the rock.

You could pull up some youtube videos on artistic gymnastics and research this topic!

;>)

Flip Flop

Trad climber

Truckee, CA

Jan 21, 2015 - 10:28pm PT

Glad you appreciate the esoterica. Thanks for the response.
Here's a shot of the man in action

And today. No less than 3 chalk blows on Pitch 15.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Jan 21, 2015 - 11:21pm PT

i use to think that Yosemite was a park for the people,

now i realize that it is a depressing metropolis situated in a magnificent setting, full of angry bus drivers, traffic, evil rangers, jaded tourists and a really good photographer,

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Jan 22, 2015 - 01:31am PT

I must answer Yes, because I never ever thought in a million years that I would meet someone named eeyonkee.

Doc Sprock...I never met an angry bus driver yet in the Valley. What did you do to him/her?

Mark Force

Trad climber

Cave Creek, AZ

Jan 22, 2015 - 03:34am PT

The question underlying the question of the OP is whether we as individuals have the capacity to choose to change a belief.

Wiki on free will....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber

Old and Broken Down in Appalachia

Jan 22, 2015 - 04:23am PT

I used to be very religious and went to church every day.

Then I went to college for 14 years, got multiple degrees and a doctorate, and now I see that religion is just a crutch. It is a crutch for people who are trying to understand the Universe and their purpose in this life. I understand why people need this crutch, but it's not for me.

I accept the Universe for what it is, something that our puny brains will never understand. Humans trying to understand the Universe are like earthworms trying to understand calculus. It just ain't gonna happen. And I am educated enough to see that, just because we cannot fully understand the Universe, doesn't mean that the only explanation for the Universe is "God."

I also user to be a hard-core conservative, John Bircher, Reaganite. But the same thing happened, I became educated and developed an analytical mind and my political beliefs have reversed.

Education is a wonderful thing.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Jan 22, 2015 - 05:02am PT

Very selectively, Yes.
Flip flops are good approach shoes that are strudey and dependable, a good pair is indespenceable
You never get to climb every day.

I used to like to drink to get drunk but the weedgee wrbleer, scared me! so has the level of punk azz that the gyms have bred though there is nothing wrong with that. they are the future of the endeavor .
Let climbers climb and climbers will!
threads come and go quick, this one has some art to it!
so it has legs to stay, to stand and stab at our insanity.

Dingus McGee

Social climber

Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace

Jan 22, 2015 - 05:40am PT

Also, I've changed my mind on "free will" and moved into the mechanistic camp.

Jgill, here is a thought out update to your leanings on free will.

ScAm Jan 2015 Why We have Free Will pg 76. Eddy Nahmias

eeyonkee

Trad climber

Golden, CO

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2015 - 06:55am PT

It's funny you should bring that up Mark Force, because what prompted me to start the thread was an offhand comment by Sam Harris in his response to Daniel Dennett's critique of Harris's book on free will. He was so exasperated with Dennett that he wondered whether scientists and philosophers who have a lot of career time invested in a position can ever be persuaded otherwise.

I would say that I've certainly changed an early position I had on global warming of more or less sitting on the fence. I knew that we were coming out of an ice age, so warming would be expected and I figured that a few decades of higher volcanic activity might obliterate any contributions by humans. Well, that was several years ago now, and it is obvious that the weight of evidence is on the side of human caused warming.

If I ever totally cast off my belief in free will (and I'm close), that will be the biggest change in a deeply-held belief that I have made since joining the ST community.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Jan 22, 2015 - 07:06am PT

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 07:35am PT

Nice discussion and funny Dilbert.

I think our intention to have free will and our ability to exercise it are separate variables. Some people get stuck at their inability to exercise free will and take the easy road of believing that it doesn't exist. I think that "openness" (as a prerequisite to learning to exercise free will) is a trait that can be learned and developed if a person has a motivation to do so. My motivation down this road was to relieve myself of recurring negative experiences in my marriage that made life miserable for me. Most people don't see an immediate benefit in terms of bringing happiness/pleasure or removing pain, perhaps because fear of the unknown presents the risk of greater pain.

The conditioning of our childhood can introduce deeply etched patterns that aid in survival as a child but become onerous for adult interactions, presenting as an inability to exercise free will. Inquisitive people who value free will and want to exercise it may find that in certain situations their fight or flight responses are triggered and they become frustrated with robot-like reactions that are not consistent with the ideal of free will. This has been my personal experience as I struggled to understand my emotional make-up and how I respond in certain situations, even if I have spent time intellectually pre-analyzing and preparing for a situation. Years of failure using my intellect to deal with some situations led me to explore my emotional and spiritual development more deeply, and that led to a more satisfactory path to desensitize myself to certain triggers. Two analogies I often use to describe it are clearing emotional mine fields in my brain, or debugging the broken programming in my brain.

My intellect recognized the patterns, and eventually figured out the right direction to focus on for my development, but my intellect (as an abstract entity apart from my emotional or spiritual self) was not capable of resolving the problems. If you want to play with semantics and call all of this internal dialog and exploration as facets of one's intellect, fine. But in the path that I followed for development, making a distinction between intellect, emotions, and spirit and the different impulses and and nature of each, proved to be exceptionally valuable for me.

Fish Finder

Social climber

Jan 22, 2015 - 07:35am PT

SUPERTOPHILOSOPHY

Damn this site is getting deep

Mark Force

Trad climber

Cave Creek, AZ

Jan 22, 2015 - 07:36am PT

If the choice is between libertarianism (as a philosophy rather than politic) and determinism, I have to go with libertarianism. If all behavior is the result of determinism, we end up with some very sticky (icky?) posits regarding responsibility, will, vision, compassion, service, liberty, charity, love, and a number of other characteristics we as a whole tend to admire in others and cherish in ourselves. They all become rather hollow and meaningless in that they all mean nothing to the organism that produces their behaviors other than their physical outcome/utility.

Dingus McGee's suggestion of the article, "Why We Have Free Will," is quite good and a worthy read.

It is common when people are under duress to dissociate from being conscious in the present moment and default to behaviors that are determined by their conditioned responses in accord with BF Skinner. It is possible to train oneself to be associated under duress and use reasoned rather than conditioned responses to the environment. In that sense there are aspects of our behavior that conform to both determinism and libertarianism. Much of the ground between the two reflects an individual's ability to be self-aware, a trainable skill.

Byran

climber

San Jose, CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 07:39am PT

I like the American practice of teaching kids to believe in Santa Claus, mainly because it provides an early lesson on the importance of changing ones beliefs in light of new evidence.

I also dropped my belief in free-will a few years ago, though not because of something I read on Supertopo. And I don't know if it qualifies as a "deeply held" belief because I hadn't actually spent much time thinking about it up until that point.

Flip Flop

Trad climber

Truckee, CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 07:51am PT

They're called orcas.

Byran

climber

San Jose, CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 08:11am PT

And since the topic seems to have changed to a discussion of free will:

The way I see it, you can't have free-will unless you place the brain beyond reach of cause-and-effect. Which is to say that all other matter and processes in the universe operate under the predictable laws of nature, but not the brain; the brain is magic and has some sort of soul or spirit or supernatural element to it which is impossible to detect or quantify.

It seems like a lot of people also conflate free-will with the basis of morality, which is nonsense. If an employee is late to work 5 times in two weeks, that's a good indication they will continue to be late to work in the future, so you fire them. More over, our actions regarding criminal laws and morality affect the actions of everyone around us. If you know that being late to work will get you fired, then you will be more likely to show up on time. Cause and effect, data in data out. If a tree falls on a house and kills someone, we don't hold the tree "responsible" for it's actions because moralizing to a tree doesn't alter the behavior of trees.

nature

climber

Boulder, CO

Jan 22, 2015 - 08:20am PT

Humans are capable of changing deeply-held beliefs. Most will never walk the path required, however.

A teaching from the Tantra - looking for the Black Swan when you know all Swans are White - offered from my teacher helped me begin to walk this path. I'm probably not very far along but I know I'm walking it.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Jan 22, 2015 - 08:32am PT

The issue should be less about volition: mechanistic** or non-mechanistic? and more about can-do ability or can-do power, imo.

**"freewill" is a misnomer, a leftover from medieval times (re: demonic possession). It causes more confusion than clarity. Volition (eg, mechanistic volition) is a more elucidating, more useful term.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Jan 22, 2015 - 08:41am PT

"Volition" is simply the latin for "will" which is anglo-saxon - they are synonyms. Like "fornicate" and "f*#k," like "defecate" and "sh#t."

eeyonkee

Trad climber

Golden, CO

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2015 - 08:44am PT

That was a funny Dilbert. I was hoping to hear from somebody who formerly did not believe in human-caused global warming. It's one thing to have this belief without having looked into it (most people who hold this view). It's another to retain this belief in light of the overwhelming evidence that has come out in recent years and that has been presented in several threads here. I would hope that somebody who's read through parts of the global warming thread would have changed their mind.

What I would be totally surprised at would be a change in position on a religious belief.

little Z

Trad climber

un cafetal en Naranjo

Jan 22, 2015 - 08:46am PT

I used to believe that the New York Yankees were evil. But then Ichiro put on the pinstripes and I was forced to change my deeply held belief.

nature

climber

Boulder, CO

Jan 22, 2015 - 08:51am PT

but Grug.... to the Deniers their belief is the equivalent of a religious belief. It's all about faith and being lied to.

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Jan 22, 2015 - 09:19am PT

I think deeply held beliefs are in large part a function of age. Young people tend to be more open minded than older ones. I often remark at how much more open to new ideas my college students are than the people I debate on ST, myself included. Conversely, if you don't have some firm opinions by middle or late middle age, then something has failed in your development.I see also, that people who live to be very old, either stick with their opinions to the bitter end, usually condemning how the world is developing, or they become more philosophical at the immense changes they have witnessed in their lifetime and the plasticity of human culture. My 91 year old mother is at that point after having firm opinions through middle age.

I also agree with NutAgain! that beliefs are not just a matter of intellect but of emotion and spirit, no matter how rational we think we are.

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 09:26am PT

edit: I posted a thread drift on conservatism, but deleted it because I don't want to dilute this good discussion.

WBraun

climber

Jan 22, 2015 - 09:53am PT

Americans have become ......

Unbelievable

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber

Old and Broken Down in Appalachia

Jan 22, 2015 - 10:12am PT

Americans have become ......

Unbelievable

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-jones/is-this-country-crazy_b_6451880.html

Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber

City of Salt

Jan 22, 2015 - 11:08am PT

I tried. But I still think "The Big Lebowski" is one of the worst movies of all time. I walked out of the theater when it was first showing. Due to the overabundance of praise on this forum I rented it and suffered through the whole thing hoping that I missed something the first time, or was just not in the mood. I really like almost all of the Coen Brothers movies too.

But alas, I still found it an inane, insipid, uninspired mess. Still don't grasp why someone peeing on the carpet is high art...

Texplorer

Trad climber

Sacramento

Jan 22, 2015 - 11:33am PT

That comment really ties the thread together man.

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Jan 22, 2015 - 11:46am PT

That Huffington Post editorial certainly summarizes my experience overseas as well and I think it relates to the topic of this thread.It's quite clear to someone who's been away from America for a long time that we're not coping with reality and that the old men who run both our political parties are mired in the past.

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Jan 22, 2015 - 12:31pm PT

Jan, Mark Zuckerberg is 28. Do you mean younger than that?

I remember loving Wild in the Streets as a kid. Fourteen or fight!

Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 12:42pm PT

I find articles like the one from the Huffington Post rather insufferable. Believe me when I say that I know our country isn't perfect and, yes, many Americans hold believes that I cannot fathom. I've been lucky enough to travel all around this globe. But let's face it, people are people. I have learned that there are enough f-ed up political systems and institutions to share equally. It's my opinion that the common thread for most America bashing is simply anti-American sentiment, not the result of some reasoned approach to the issue they're complaining of.

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Jan 22, 2015 - 12:42pm PT

I used to believe that paper money had a stable and real value.

I used to believe that the state was at the very least, well intentioned and representative of the people's will.

Both of those really changed the way I look at everything and didn't happen until I was well into my thirties...

this just in

climber

Justin Ross from North Fork

Jan 22, 2015 - 12:49pm PT

I try to avoid deeply held beliefs.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber

Old and Broken Down in Appalachia

Jan 22, 2015 - 12:52pm PT

I find articles like the one from the Huffington Post rather insufferable...

Yes, but still true nonetheless.

I have traveled all the way around the world in 180 days (literally), and have been to 40 other countries. I've developed the sense that America has gone crazy. It was very rewarding to find an article written by someone else who feels exactly the same way as me.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 01:27pm PT

To answer the OP, I was an atheist until a couple of years after my graduation from Berkeley. I don't think any of the subtle (and not-so-subtle distinctions offered in previous posts) can account for a complete turnaround in such a deeply-held belief in the non-existence of God to a belief in, and trust of, Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord.

AND, I changed my mind on anthropogenic global warming based on posts by Chiloe in this forum. I was convinced that the reliability of the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis was grossly overstated, and the hypothesis unverifiable because of a lack of a "control earth" for experimental confirmation. Chiloe pointed me to material from the American Statistical Association that changed my mind. That probably was not a change in an underlying belief, because it rests on my experience and education as an econometrician, and consequent belief in statistical methods.

Still, I believe that what people say, even on ST, can change opinions if the would-be persuaders are respectful, logical, and set forth relevant, objective reasons for their positions.

John

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 01:43pm PT

^^^^ I bet you would if they thought they could get on American Idol or,
even better, a green card in the USA.

Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 02:10pm PT

There are many countries all over the world, where wealth isn't as great and opportunity isn't as great as the USA, but at least they have that excuse Fat Dad. What excuse do Americans have for the level of cynicism, delusion and ignorance that puts it on the same plane as any third world backwater?

You think the criticisms are unwarrented? How do explain how you give power to people like James Inhoffe or Michelle Bachmann? you consider torture OK so long as you do it? You have exactly no problem with rigging votes so long as your guy gets in? half your population thinks dinosaurs walked with jesus?

Dude, chill. I'm not saying that they're aren't oodles of stupid Americans. There absolutely are. I kind of agree with a sentiment that Walter Cronkite expressed a number of years ago when he observed that the American public simply doesn't make a sufficient effort to educate itself about the political process to cast an educated vote. I'm just saying that Americans don't hold an exclusive right to that claim. I've seen lots of ignorant morons the world over to convince me of that. I just get annoyed by

I'm not really sure why this is directed at me. I'm a dyed in the wool democrat and believe in universal coverage. Michelle Bachman is a pyscho. I intend to urinate on Inohofe's grave once he's in the ground. I, and most other Christians, don't interpret the Bible literally. That's an evangelic characteristic. In fact, it's a doctrine of the Catholic Church that the Bible should NOT be interpreted literally. St. Augustine expressed similar ideas back around 300 A.D.

Tough room.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Jan 22, 2015 - 02:23pm PT

Not to change this to a theological discussion, but even Evangelicals don't say that the Bible should be interpreted literally. Several Biblical passages are explicitly allegorical (see, e.g., much of Revelation, Daniel or Ezekiel, where they describe something like something else. If the reader takes that passage literally, the reader eliminates the words "something like," which is contrary to orthodox canons of Scriptural interpretation.

We do, however, take Scripture as the authority on matters of faith and doctrine, so if someone contends that Christian doctrine differs from explicit Biblical text, we reject the doctrine that contradicts Scripture. This differs from "literalism" which, for the reasons I set forth above, actually contradicts Biblical doctrine.

John