US Recognition of Cuba

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Messages 1 - 83 of total 83 in this topic
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 17, 2014 - 09:52pm PT


About time, really! For f*#k sake we have diplomatic relations with ..., no I will not enumerate the much more messed up countries, I mean they are not even in same universe as Cuba. This can do a lot of good. I, Darwin am thanking the Pope for his role in this.
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
and Tami, Ghost and their lot played a pivotal role, too: so thanks.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
In What Time Zone Am I?
Dec 17, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
Maybe I'll go back. I was there every year from my birth to 1957 as my Dad loved to vacation there. I only remember nice beaches.

Susan
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 17, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
There are also some recent & pertinant posts on this subject in the hated: Why Are Republicans Wrong about Everything thread.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2510765&tn=1460
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 17, 2014 - 10:44pm PT
Just don't take any Bibles there.
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2014 - 10:55pm PT
Reilly,

Notwithstanding the human rites violations, don't you think it's time?

a sincere non loaded question
Darwin
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 17, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
Of course! I'm just urging caution if you do go, the security 'organs'
have not thrown in the towel.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 17, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
30 years too late. This issue is another nail in the coffin of the Republican Party, Marco Rubio and a significant part of the GOP base are on the wrong side of history, again.
Degaine

climber
Dec 17, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
A climbing destination as well:
http://www.barakaflims.com/en/cuba
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 06:10am PT
Lame-duck status can be a good thing.

This is good news in every respect. Cuba has hordes of well-educated people, doctors, etc..ready to move into 21st century roles.

NOW, congress - do your job for a change and end the embargo.

crankster

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 06:37am PT
Read this...

"How Republicans could stop Obama's Cuba play
Hill Republicans started making a to-do list immediately."


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/congress-cuba-reaction-113654.html#ixzz3MGCdc2Ey[/quote]
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:00am PT
Great! Now we can All get back to whoreing and gambling off shore, and we won't have to go to Victoria to get our Cohibas.

Cane sugar will be cheap enough to put back into Classic Coke like it is in the stuff we get from Mexico.

Rum, don't forget rum.


And you will be able to get cheap medical proceedures with or without Obamacare, so the medical lobby won't be happy.

The plutocrats stand to do very well. They now have a place to stash their money without having to deal with Switzerland's negative interest rates.
The down side is the beaches will get crowded.

Oh, yeah...
http://www.cubaclimbing.com
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:23am PT
Are Cubans allowed to leave now?

Or is Cuba still a prison nation?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:25am PT
Have you ever been to South Florida?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_migration_to_Miami
It was made easier by blanket amnesty.

The only prison state was Amerika with its travel embargo.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:34am PT
"Ask again in five years."


There's a bail bond in San Bernardino whose billboard reads "I'll get you out if it takes twenty years".
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:39am PT
That would be funny if it was in Santiago.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:43am PT
Bravo President Obama.

It's about freeking time we turned the page.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:55am PT
Do we have to go back and edit our Cuba si, Yanquis no posts now?

The fourteen colonies.




El secretario de Estado norteamericano, John Kerry, pidió al Kremlin distender la crisis en la república autónoma ucraniana de Crimea y “devolver las tropas a los cuarteles” porque, si no lo hace, a Estados Unidos y a sus aliados no les quedará otra opción que “aislar política, diplomática y económicamente” a Rusia.

Desde Kiev, epicentro de las protestas que derivaron en la caída del presidente pro-ruso Victor Yanukovich y el asenso al poder al sector pro-occidental que puso en el poder a Arseni Yatseniuk pero que es liderado por Julia Timoshenko, el jefe de la diplomacia norteamericana volvió a condenar la “agresión” rusa por enviar tropas a Crimea y expresó su apoyo al actual gobierno ucraniano.

Kerry sostuvo que Rusia “está buscando crear un pretexto” para intervenir en Ucrania, subrayó que la crisis de ese país debe ser resulta por la vía diplomática y enfatizó que Estados Unidos “no quiere la confrontación. Luego anunció que la Casa Blanca está dispuesta a conceder un crédito de mil millones de dólares a Ucrania.


RUSIA NO ES CUBA MUCHACHOS SI PASA ESTO VAYAN BUSCANDO LA LLAVE DE LOS BUNKERS

First up for me is a trip down to get a couple of '57 chevys


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:11am PT
Haha. I know a couple of railroad guys have already lined up a couple of these.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:20am PT
Along with the Sony debacle this is a good day for ruthless dictators.

Typical of Liberals to see this as yet another opportunity to rip the U.S.
Unbelievable.

Get ready for the Castros to unlock the prisons as they did during the Carter years, and to export millions of uneducated,poor, government-dependent future Democrat voters, which the taxpayer will be on the hook for. Get ready.

If you have a boat then head for Cuba. This will be a cash cow for you in no time.


dirtbag

climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:36am PT
Yes Ward, after 50 years, it is indisputable that the embargo has been a resounding success in ousting the Castros and bringing prosperity and freedom to the Cuban people.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:42am PT
Won't be long before Citibank opens an office in Havana.


WASHINGTON, Oct. 18, 1982 — It has been 22 years since the revolutionary Government in Cuba expropriated 11 branch offices of the First National City Bank, since renamed Citibank.

A 21-year-old lawsuit growing out of that action finally reached the Supreme Court today as the Justices decided to hear the case. The Court's decision could determine not only Citibank's legal rights, but also those of other American companies faced with nationalization of their assets in other parts of the world.

The case is an appeal by Citibank from a decision by the Federal appeals court in New York. That court ruled that Cuba's Bank for Foreign Trade, which sued Citibank over a relatively minor commercial dispute in 1961, was not the ''alter ego'' of the Cuban Government and therefore could not be countersued by Citibank for the value of the expropriated bank branches.

For those willing and/or able to read:

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/10/19/business/justices-to-hear-citibank-cuba-case.html
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:44am PT
"Embargo" get outta here.

The reason Cuba has been in a condition of miserable poverty the last 50 yrs. is because a dispicable,ruthless dictator holds sway there, added to it being the bitch of the Soviets until 20 years ago--not because of what the U.S. has or hasn't done.
The left has always harbored warm and fuzzy feelings for Castro. He is the hip tyrant out there. The fact that that he is a communist/socialist has always been an added bonus.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:45am PT
I heard an interesting recorded quote last night- it was Nixon, in a debate with Kennedy, regarding Kennedy's proposal to depose Castro directly. Nixon decried the idea, saying that it would result in disastrous consequences for US relations with other nations, and would likely get us kicked out of the UN.

Can you believe that quote? If you read it somewhere today, unattributed, you'd swear that it was some panty-waisted Democrat responding to a chickenhawk Republican.

My, how the world has changed.
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:45am PT

We should prob just attempt a 3rd assassination against the Castro's huh Ward.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:45am PT
Yup. Our retarded foreign policy became a little less retarded yesterday. Why should it be dictated by the former elites of a failed nation?

Fact is, human rights, in the era of unrestrained population growth, is a luxury we can't afford. We're gonna have to cut a deal with Iran at some point and Russia as well.

While we were clinging to the policies of the past, North Korea was telling us what to not watch this holiday weekend. A much more serious problem for the U.S.
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:48am PT
it was Nixon, in a debate with Kennedy, regarding Kennedy's proposal to depose Castro directly. Nixon decried the idea, saying that it would result in disastrous consequences for US relations with other nations, and would likely get us kicked out of the UN.

interesting point.

I am in the middle of watching the American Experience series put out by PBS and am on the 4 part JFK one.

The series highlights the fact that JFK's experience as the English ambassadors son in the 1930's, and the appeasement of Hitler really impacted his foreign policy. Some of his statements make it sound like Castro is the next Hitler. JFK was about as hard of a Cold Warrior as they made them.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:56am PT
Will anyone be housing any? Romney has agreed to take a couple on a "trial" basis to operate his car garage elevator, thereby acing me out of a job. They work cheap or not at all.

Get ready for the Castros to unlock the prisons as they did during the Carter years, and to export millions of uneducated,poor, government-dependent future Democrat voters, which the taxpayer will be on the hook for. Get ready.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:11am PT

Fidel died
By Alberto de la Cruz, on December 18, 2014, at 12:00 pm

Orlando Luis Pardo Lazo in Post Revolution Mondays:

Fidel Died

Cuban democracy has taken so long that now it seems we Cubans can wait for a little longer. President Obama, with his historical Cuban speech, is indeed recognizing the future rights of a leftist dictatorship that in turn never recognized the rights of Cuban citizens.

Yet, his Cuban counterpart, General Raul Castro, dressed in military uniform instead of his much more accustomed expensive suits, delivered a simultaneous speech so solemn that he sounded like in a funeral. It was obvious that this was his fraternal farewell to Fidel Castro, who cannot be part anymore of the Cuban equation in the new era opened today. I dare say that Fidel Castro has died and that the apocalyptic announcement may take place in the 56th anniversary of the Cuban Revolution, on January 1st.

Next, we’ll see in Cuba the masquerade of new investments and markets and local licenses for business and more access to internet and even an electoral reform, but private property will remain a myth and no fundamental freedoms are conceivable for Cubans while only one Communist Party keeps monopolizing all political life, with the State Security from the Ministry of the Interior as the real source of governance of a model based on secrecy and, of course, impunity to repression.

After decades of fostering terrorism, the Caribbean dictatorship is paving the path to a dynastic “dictatorcracy”, with second and third generation Castros perpetuated in position to lead this process without ever worrying about consulting the popular will. Thus, the Cuban self-transition from totalitarianism to State capitalism is under way with a new geopolitical ally: the United States of America. As such, Cuban democrats must re-schedule their expectations to live in a normal Cuba. This is the main consequence of the “normalization” of relations between the gerontocracy of the Revolution Square and a White House pushed both by the corporations and by the pro-Castro bias of the free press.

As for the Cuban exiles, thank you very much for what you’ve done for this great nation, yes, but your President Obama has just mentioned that effective Cubans are only the 11 million still under Castro’s rule on the Island. So, our world-wide free diaspora will remain excluded of their own nationality, at most invited to collaborate by sending their billions of dollars every year in remittances. What’s more, the Cuban Adjustment Act from 1966 is likely to be ineffective soon, so that the Cuban immigration will lose its special status in USA and the first deportations of illegal Cuban newcomers are conceivable to stop the stampede.

Last but not least, Cuban “civil society”, as Obama stated, seems no more interested in political opposition to the government and ultimately, in peacefully struggling to legally attain power. Reduced to the field of dissidence, their pro-democracy actions are limited to a digital catharsis that is perfectly tolerable for the new status quo of post-Castroism.

So, welcome to the real thing. Cuban democracy, like heaven, can wait. Like hell.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:11am PT
"Get ready for the Castros to unlock the prisons as they did during the Carter years, and to export millions of uneducated,poor, government-dependent future Democrat voters, which the taxpayer will be on the hook for. Get ready."


I heard they all have Ebola, too. Can't remember where I heard it, though.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:14am PT
Why should it be dictated by the former elites of a failed nation?

A failed nation.

There you go folks, I rest my case.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:18am PT
They have Ebola, too.

Have you heard that, Ward?
WBraun

climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:22am PT
Let us see .....

The Hilton hotel, Trump Tower etc etc will appear soon.

Gambling casinos will rise, prostitution drugs and mob will be back.

Good ole Yankee capitalism .......

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:23am PT
Make your point and cut the phony baiting. This is the stuff you use on others.. Maybe you need to explore a new MO.

If you have a point to make about Cuba or Ebola then make it without the creepy baiting and without including my name and--- then I'll decide if I will respond.


On what?

Go back and read my posts and then use your imagination.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:25am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video] ..GITMO !!??
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:29am PT
OK, here's a point for you, Ward:

It's been 50 years since US policy was imposed on Cuba....and nothing has changed.

You know that saying about the definition of insanity? Repeating the same action, and expecting different results?

That's the point.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:34am PT
You're getting better.
Now go back and eliminate my name ---and then your post will appear as if you are just putting your own well-considered views out there.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:37am PT
What's your problem with including your name?

You wrote it, right?

Proper syntax usually includes the name of the person you are directing your response towards. (esp. important in forum contexts like this)

WTF is the problem?
WBraun

climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:45am PT
Apogee the little whiner gettin schooled ......
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 10:48am PT
WTF is the problem,Ward?
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:00am PT
+1 Ward.

Apogee never gets it when Obama talking points are being criticized.

It's all part of his faux standards....

dirtbag

climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Obama the commie is very bad man.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:16am PT
And he's black, too.

They just can't seem to deal with that, can they?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:25am PT
Bravo President Obama.

It's about freeking time we turned the page.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:39am PT
What seems to be lacking in all this hand-wringing is that all that Obama has done is to put
Cuba on the same playing field the USSR occupied for many years. It isn't really going to
affect much. If anything it might prolong the status quo by easing remittances and such.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
"hand-wringing"

Look out! Millions are being released from Cuban prisons!

They're coming right at us!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111169
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
Moosie, this move will likely ease things a bit for the people but that doesn't mean it will result
in Raul's downfall any time soon. By putting a few more pesos in the peoples' pockets it may
well prolong his tenure. People in India have completely free access to information and travel
yet they live under a de facto dictatorship arguably more harsh than Raul's. Do you see the
Venezuelans giving their bus driver president the heave ho?

DMT, care to expand upon yer snide non sequitur with something substantive? At least I
acknowledge that prognostications of Raul's demise are speculative, at best. And if it were
not for remittances to Mexico things would be far worse there. Or were you taking issue with
my assertion that Cuba will now be treated the same as any other dictatorship? Please to enlighten me.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
By putting a few more pesos in the peoples' pockets it may
well prolong his tenure.

Aren't a few more pesos in the peoples pockets a good thing? Prolong his tenure how exactly? 54 years of embargo haven't shortened their tenure a minute. Or were they right on the verge of breaking...... for the 54th time?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
There seems to be some confusion between normalization of relations and ending the trade embargo. Republicans have called for an end to the trade embargo, and not just when Nixon was Vice President. As several have pointed out, correctly in my opinion, the trade embargo has done little except to help keep the victims of Cuba's oppressive governments (I use plural because the Bautista government was quite evil, too) impoverished. Those who advocated ending the trade embargo did so not to "reward" Castro, but to ease the suffering of the Cuban people.


Of course, Obama's "ending" the embargo is a rather hollow gesture, because doing so requires Congressional action. I'll defer to the longer-running political thread for any discussion about our post-constitutional presidency.

Nonetheless, I applaud any action to end the embargo now, because the timing could not be better. Venezuela, whose oil profits had been propping up the Castro regime, is in its own financial trouble, thanks to our "insanity" in utilizing horizontal drilling and fracking. It cannot hurt for Cuba to become dependent on the United States economy now. And, of course, the Cuban people deserve relief from their economic oppression.

Normalization of relations is a different matter altogether, however. The President has the authority to establish or disestablish relations. I must wonder, however, why he thinks now is the time for normalization. If there has been any lessening of the Castro brothers' grip on their dictatorial power, the evidence stays rather hidden. I know that the blog of Yaoni Sanchez (Cubas's best-known dissident blogger) frets that diplomatic recognition will simply allow the Castros to say that "the government has won."

In summary, I hope Congress authorizes a lifting of the trade embargo, but I question Obama's timing of diplomatic recognition. As for the political fallout, I think discussion of that belongs on the other thread.

John

Edit: I see the Washington Post picked up on Sanchez's blog in its editorial today, too. [Disclaimer for those unaware: The Post Editorial Page is distinctly less friendly to Obama than that of most other "mainstream" papers]:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-obama-administration-extends-the-castro-regime-in-cuba-a-bailout-it-doesnt-deserve/2014/12/17/a25a15d4-860c-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
"I applaud any action to end the embargo now, because the timing could not be better. "


Yeah, well, that's not gonna happen without Congressional action, and with Republicans like Rubio running off at the mouth about how Obama's actions are yet another example of 'dictatorial leadership', that doesn't seem likely, does it?

"I question Obama's timing of diplomatic recognition."

It's legacy building, clearly. So what? It's about time, too. Bush coulda done it himself, and it would've been just as 'about time'.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
How does that definition of insanity go? Keep doing what you're doing and expect different results.

Perhaps Obama is not insane
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
Yous guys are always interjecting yer mental speculations, to channel Werner, into yer reading
between the lines. Survival, I made NO value judgement about Obama's move. Au contraire,
I applauded it on page one of this thread. I'm happy for the Cuban people but I assert that this
will most likely do little to hasten Raul's demise. I give him, and his ilk, 5 MORE YEARS,
at the least.

DMT, yes, I have heard that the Evil Empire, as previously defined, has ceased to exist. That
it came about after my supposed tenure at a particular establishment in Langley, VA, for which
I was told I was well qualified, in no way absolves me of my complicity. It also came about
because Михаил Горбачёв was a limp-wristed idealist who took his foot off of the gas and
suffered from the result of terminal understeer. I admit that I am less well apprised of Raul's
proclivity for understeer or oversteer however I believe he will err on the side of oversteer.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
I'm all in favor of normal relations with Cuba if only so their musicians can come up here and use real recording studios.

I hope that before we participate in their economy we use our influence to effect some positive change in Cuba. Right now the average income per capita as a part of GDP is about $5K. But the average Cuban earns about $1K. Unless this ratio changes won't U.S. $ largely go to enrich the very small number of people in power?

Another thing I wonder about. The rest of the world has been trading freely with Cuba all along, yet the regime there has not allowed this trade to benefit the people one bit.

I read the other day that almost all food production is done on government sponsored communal farms, and that if an individual wants to farm on their own they are limited to .1 acre?
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
I question Obama's timing of diplomatic recognition.

Thank you and good point. Why did it happen now with Congress just gone on holiday? Whoops, I just answered my own question.

fact is, given the ideologically driven nightmare in Washington, there's really only a few weeks in any election cycle in which things can actually happen.

The same situation with Diane Feinsteins report. Drop it at a point when you're running out of town and won't be around to take the blowback.

expect more shoes to drop over the "holidays" and before the Republican Senate comes to town.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 18, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
Survival, I made NO value judgement about Obama's move.

I didn't say that you did. I only questioned your printed text.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 18, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Visiting NYC for the holidays.

The big take here today Is MLB in Havana within 5 years.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 18, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
A truly sad day for the poor enslaved Cuban people.

dirtbag

climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
How has our posture towards Cuba succeeded?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
"A truly sad day for the poor enslaved Cuban people."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/video/video-celebration-in-havana-for-us-cuba-plan-to-restore-ties/article22123729/
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
Only relics living in the past are whining about this step towards normalizing relations with Cuba.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
You know that saying about the definition of insanity? Repeating the same action, and expecting different results?--the Die Hard Apogee
It kind of seems like your harp needs to be restrung, Apogee.
What is your problem? Manstruation cramps?

Gnome--When is the bass season in Cuba's lakes--or do you not know? Can we get a straight sentence from you on anything?
A simple yes or no is a complete thought, an acceptable sentence. :0)

I get all the sugar that I need from a small store here which sells productos de Mexico. It's called peloncillo. It's a little "cone" of brown sugar that only goes in my Vietnamese coffee. Muy sabroso.

Susan--I am certain that you may have a chance to go back to the days before the Soviets stuck their member into "our" hemisphere. "Our Man In Havana" is one helluva read.

I look at another immigrant population that fooled everyone when they got here to the USA, the so-called melting pot nation...the Hmong people, from Laos, as well as Cambodians and Thais, all up-rooted by US militarism and the CIA, who were only not following orders, but moving smack.

The biggest reason that Cuba had casinos and prosties and the rest is (quite possibly--lots of room to debate this) that nobody had any reason to stop them from doing just what they did. I'm talking about "The Boys," some of whom were simply "innocent investor(s) living on their pensions," in South Florida of all places!

I applaud Mr. Obama's efforts. I deplore the opposition's need to step in front of a train.

You know what they say about the definition of insanity, don't you?





Rolfr

Sport climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
Dec 18, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
I will not be holding my breath for any significant change, Whoopee now you can bring home $100.00 of cigars. Congress still has to approve the removal of sanctions, doubtful if that will happen any time soon.
Just a PR exercise, nothing will change till both Castro dictators die, their human rights violations are on par with N Korea and their population live in fear. Communist Cuba is still communist.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Dec 18, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
I have not followed events in Cuba, so can someone direct my attention to what the nature of the human rights violations occurring in Cuba is?

EDIT: Thanks for nothing.

So what is being talked about is torture, political imprisonment, government killing and other forms of repression?
Seems like I've heard that before.


Cuba is clearly in the bottom half of the distribution but its record has improved somewhat over the past two decades. The graph also highlights two Communist countries with whom the United States has had troublesome relations. Critics of the policy change highlight North Korea, which has a much worse record than Cuba, which has gotten even more atrocious in recent years. Vietnam, emphasized by President Obama in his speech, is a better comparison. Indeed, the two countries have a nearly identical human rights record according to this measure (it may be different if we would focus on other rights than physical integrity rights, which include torture, political imprisonment, government killing and other forms of repression).
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 19, 2014 - 06:26am PT
Smoke a little BC bud, Rolfr...pretty grim assessment, yours.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 19, 2014 - 06:48am PT
"I applaud Mr. Obama's efforts. I deplore the opposition's need to step in front of a train."

Ummm, I do too, mouse. Think we're in the same camp.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Dec 19, 2014 - 08:41am PT
Guess those that live there and actually fight the f*#ked up sh#t going on there don't really no what they are saying in the statement below. They just don't get it I guess.


Cuban Dissident Leaders React to Obama's Announcement

Cuban dissident leaders react to President Obama's announcement to normalize relations with Castro's dictatorship:

"Sadly, President Obama made the wrong decision. The freedom and democracy of the Cuban people will not be achieved through these benefits that he's giving -- not to the Cuban people -- but to the Cuban government. The Cuban government will only take advantage to strengthen its repressive machinery, to repress civil society, its people and remain in power."

-- Berta Soler, leader of The Ladies in White.

"[Alan Gross] was not arrested for what he did, but for what could be gained from his arrest. He was simply bait and they were aware of it from the beginning... Castroism has won, though the positive result is that Alan Gross has left alive the prison that threatened to become his tomb."

-- Yoani Sanchez, Cuban blogger and independent journalist, 14ymedio.

"The Cuban people are being ignored in this secret conversation, in this secret agreement that we learned today. The reality of my country is there is just one party with all the control and with the state security controlling the whole society. If this doesn’t change, there’s no real change in Cuba. Not even with access to Internet. Not even when Cuban people can travel more than two years ago. Not even that is a sign of the end of the totalitarianism in my country."

--Rosa Maria Paya, daughter of murdered Christian Liberation Movement leader, Oswaldo Paya.

"[Obama's announcement] is horrible and disregarding the opinion of [Cuban] civil society sends a bad message. The acceptance of neo-Castroism in Cuba will mean greater support for authoritarianism in the region and, as a consequence, human rights will be relegated to a secondary role."

-- Antonio Rodiles, head of Estado de Sats.

"Alan Gross was used as a tool by the Castro regime to coerce the United States. Obama was not considerate of Cuban citizens and of the civil society that is facing this tyrannical regime. In Miami, Obama promised that he would consult Cuba measures with civil society and the non-violent opposition. Obviously, this didn't happen. That is a fact, a reality. He didn't consider Cuba's democrats. The betrayal of Cuba's democrats has been consummated."

-- Guillermo Fariñas, former Sakharov Prize recipient.

"The Obama Administration has ceded before Castro's dictatorship. Nothing has changed. The jails remain filled, the government represents only one family, repression continues, civil society is not recognized and we have no right to assemble or protest... The measures that the government of the United States has implemented today, to ease the embargo and establish diplomatic relations with Cuba, will in no way benefit the Cuban people. The steps taken will strengthen the Castro regime's repression against human rights activists and increase its resources, so the security forces can keep harassing and repressing civil society."

--Angel Moya, former political prisoner of the Black Spring (2003).

"We are in total disagreement with what has transpired today. It's a betrayal of those who within Cuba have opposed the regime in order to achieve definitive change for the good of all Cubans."

-- Felix Navarro, former political prisoner and co-head of the Cuban Patriotic Union (UNPACU).

"It's discomforting that the accounts of the Castro regime can grow, as the first step will be more effective repression and a rise in the level of corruption."

-- Jose Daniel Ferrer, former political prisoner and co-head of the Cuban Patriotic Union (UNPACU)

"This is a betrayal that leaves the democratic opposition defenseless. Obama has allied himself with the oppressors and murderers of our people."

-- Jorge Luis Garcia Perez "Antunez," former political prisoner and head of the National Resistance Front.

"I feel as though I have been abandoned on the battlefield."

-- Dr. Oscar Elias Biscet, former Cuban political prisoner and U.S. Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 19, 2014 - 08:44am PT
The wheels of change are spinnin', d-clod, there ain't no going back. Look to the future, not the past.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 19, 2014 - 08:45am PT
https://www.google.co.in/search?q=partagas+cigars&es_sm=91&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=mlWUVN_AHsbhuQSwhIHgCQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1407&bih=717
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Dec 19, 2014 - 09:10am PT
Oh that Obama, he is a sneaky one. You see, our Kenyan born mooslim socialist has no intention of bringing democracy to Cuba. His anti-American agenda involves bringing commie-ism to the godly USofA.

Rush and Bluey were right about Obummer!
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Dec 19, 2014 - 11:04am PT
I'm not looking to the past I'm learning from it. I do not trust Communists and I will not start now. This has nothing to do with making the life of normal every day Cubans better. I truly do hope I'm wrong though.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 19, 2014 - 11:27am PT
John, I am not sure that I understand the chest beating about Cuba having won.

They did win. They defeated the US in armed combat.

So did Viet Nam. And they shouted it from the roof of our embassy.

And we survived that just fine.

So, basing a foreign policy on a fiction, to probably the detriment of our country, makes no sense to me.

Obama actually ran the first time on altering the relationship with Cuba. He took some minor steps in his first term (and, GASP, our country did not collapse). Clearly, there is NO possibility now, of Congress dealing with this, so it is time for the President to do the only thing that he can. And he did.

Frankly, I think it is long overdue. If it had been done 30 years ago, we'd be arguing NOW about whether Cuba should be it's own state, or part of Florida.......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 19, 2014 - 11:31am PT
By the way, those who walk in fear of Raul Castro, and what he will be doing.......

He is 83 years old. I don't think you'll have to wait long for regime change.

I hear that one of the Castro daughters might be in line, and is much more a pragmatist.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 19, 2014 - 11:41am PT
Lost in all this is an appreciation of where this comes from. President Obama considers one historical US politician to be the role model he tries to follow.....Lincoln.

People are all up in arms about Obama changing the relationship with our enemy.

Lincoln said: "If I change my enemy into my friend, have I not defeated my enemy?"

It's a process. It will take time. but it is not unprecedented.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Dec 19, 2014 - 11:55am PT
“To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.”
― Sun Tzu
WBraun

climber
Dec 19, 2014 - 11:57am PT
I am your enemy ......
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 19, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
I thought desire was the enemy?
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
Dec 19, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
As a traveller, I'm looking forward to my trip to Cuba, and interacting
With the people there.
hamie

Social climber
Thekoots
Dec 19, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
What were Castro's three biggest legacies to the Cuban people?











Breakfast











Lunch













Supper.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 19, 2014 - 07:24pm PT

“To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.”
― Sun Tzu

"We have met the enemy and he is us." ~ Pogo
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 19, 2014 - 07:27pm PT

A truly sad day for the poor enslaved Cuban people.


....because they had it so great under Fulgencio Batista, ( and Meier Lansky, and Sam Giancana)...

Who we put in office and supported against Castro until 1959. Then we supported Castro.

In fact, Batista came to power in a coup with the help of US embassador Summer Wells. He then ran for president as a Democratic Socialist ( think who democratic socialist countries were) with the help of the formal Cuban Communist party.

Obama had nothing to do with it.
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
What were Castro's three biggest legacies to the Cuban people?e

Better literacy than anywhere else in Latin America and a longer life expectancy than we have here in the USA.
The life expectancy based on NPR this morning. I pulled the literacy statement out of where the sun don't shine, but I'm pretty sure it's close to the truth. I can't believe Costa Rica isn't up there, though.

When will I learn just to not look here?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 19, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Charles Manson just turned 80. Prison is good for longevity.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 19, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Prison is good for longevity.

Uh... I don't think so.
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