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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 14, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
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It is working out well for those in control - we react to their well-played staging of "what is Right" and "what is wrong".
Meanwhile, every single creature on this planet pays the price - including us.
We set the stage for the world.
Keep playing their game.
Keep reacting.
It fits their plan nicely.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
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You're talking about CMac vs. RJ, right??
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
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Erik, when you left Bellingham you should have turned north.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
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Potential for a good discussion on an interesting topic....
I thought about this a while back, trying to think what would be better. Even in places where they have a bunch of political parties, they still form into coalitions that boils down to the same thing. Choices must be made about how to spend money, and if a smaller political party does not join a coalition and go with that coalition's consensus, then they will lose to another party that does join the coalition.
Perhaps one advantage of smaller more custom-tailored parties that closely align with individual voter's views, would be that if specific issues that are platforms for one small party results in that smaller party gaining a larger share of the representatives within the coalition, then it can steer the values of the coalition. In a way, it gives more direct representation of what is popular with the individuals rather than individuals choosing "the lesser of evils" as they do today in America's two-party system.
I guess I talked myself into the multi-party system when I started out thinking I would say why it doesn't work.
Of course, this doesn't take into account the corrupting influence of political spending by corporate and wealthy private interests. That's a separate problem, but perhaps it's also a part of why multi-parties can't really catch on here. If the corporations and rich individuals agree to give contributions to the two top parties, then it opens up a wide gap between them and the next competitive alternatives, and the political contributions can be minimized to achieve a certain political result.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
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Funny, Ghost - and good points, NutAgain.
I am not a revolutionary, but just an observer of broken things.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
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Professor Corey will run for any party, and he will bring his own bottle!
Seriously, political parties were for a short period of time despised and reviled in America. Unfortunately that sentiment didn't last very long.
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Marcus McCoy from Nevada City
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Dec 14, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
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I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, I really don't have a solution to the complexity of the problem, but damn if it doesn't irritate me. I keep attempting to write an Ishmael-esque simile here but I would really just be plagiarizing.
I suppose the only way I see viable actionable change is in how I live my life and how I spend my money, which I don't believe has very much effect. But its the best I got; I am very open to ideas, even if I am very pessimistic/pragmatic regarding them.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 14, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
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Sorry for the joke Erik -- I just couldn't resist.
But I've thought about this a lot -- having lived in both two- and multi-party democracies -- and my conclusion is that the issue is not how many parties there are, but rather how long the system has been in place, and the economic circumstances of each generation.
Most political systems were put in place following some kind of revolution or upheaval. The old, corrupt system was overthrown and the new system -- which would fairly represent the population -- was installed. But, over time, the revolutionary fervor wears off and money buys control. And the time that takes is very, very short.
The American two-party system isn't inherently better or worse than other countries' three- four- or more-party systems. And American politicians are not inherenetly more or less corrupt than politicians elsewhere.
One thing that has been different in the US is that for most of the time since 1776, there has been plenty for everyone. Relatively few people in a large and resource-rich land. And as long as most citizens believe they're better off than their parents were, and that their children will be better off than they are, then who cares what the politicians and bureaucrats are skimming off? Or who they're in bed with.
But now, almost 250 years later, growth is no longer unlimited. Opportunity is no longer boundless. More and more people believe they are not as well off as their parents, and that their children will be even less likely to do well. Which makes it much harder for them to ignore what has always gone on in their government.
Welcome to the world, America.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
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Ishmael...ha!
Thanks for that reminder.
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feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
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Dec 14, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
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I'll echo the age of the system idea. Voltaire's Bastard is a great read there.
Looking at the evolution of the sport - trad debate is informative. At some point people have a hard time figuring out if the intentionality (moral) side of the issue is actually major or minor. At that point people can move on. We all like climbing, and exciting fun is a unifier.
What will bridge the political divide? We're now in a negative sum game (who gets the most hurt matters, not who gets the most good). That's the same terrain that led to Rome's downfall. It was better that a "liberal/conservative" general would lose his battle than get empowered so he could really damage the system.
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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Excellent post Ghost.
There is no political system that will protect us from our own greed, lust for power, selfishness, and arrogance.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 14, 2014 - 09:47pm PT
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The 2 party system...The haves and the have nots...
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
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It is a humanity division observation thread, Moose - not a political thread.
Big difference.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 14, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
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When there are this many rats in the cage EVERYTHING is political, even doing nothing.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
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^^Exactly
Moose, I have the power to delete and start over again.
As every creator of threads that divide rather than connect does, as well.
Nudge, nudge.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 15, 2014 - 07:25am PT
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There is no political system that will protect us from our own greed, lust for power, selfishness, and arrogance.
The problem with a government by "the people" is that we elect from a corruptible assortment of individuals.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Dec 15, 2014 - 09:57am PT
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Jebus - is that your sign? Where did you get it? WANT
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 15, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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In the past 10 years or so, perhaps with the adoption of the Internet by the masses, I have had more frank discussions with people who seem to realize the system is a scam.
The basic problem I see is the inherent tribal nature of people.
It's a human flaw that's been exploited throughout all of history. Our two party system is just a tiny speck of that time.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Dec 15, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
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Obviously, you have forgotten...
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Dec 15, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
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Jebus,
I did google it but found no signs for sale - that's why i wondered what your story was...bet someone just had it printed.
kev
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 15, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
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Mr. E..... I have had the same feelings for years.
DMT.... your right "TEAM"
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 15, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 15, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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Makes for a continuous stable government.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Dec 15, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
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The best system may be Instant Runoff Voting.
Embedded powers like Dems & Repubs hate it because they lose power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system#Multiple-winner_methods
The most common ranked voting method is instant-runoff voting (IRV), also known as the "alternative vote" or simply preferential voting, which uses voters' preferences to simulate an elimination runoff election without multiple voting events. As the votes are tallied, the option with the fewest first-choice votes is eliminated. In successive rounds of counting, the next preferred choice still available from each eliminated ballot is transferred to candidates not yet eliminated. The least preferred option is eliminated in each round of counting until there is a majority winner, with all ballots being considered in every round of counting.
http://www.fairvote.org/reforms/instant-runoff-voting/
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
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Dec 15, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
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When it comes to the Yin & the Yang. I'm for either one or the other or both.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 15, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
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I really thought things would change when Obama took office. The Bush years were so horrible for our country. But now, what the heck. Clinton signed NAFTA, and he's now all chummy with W. O just petered out. With both housed in Dem control, still nothing happened. How can that be? Where was the fight? And now the "give away." And now, no prosecution for the ones who orchestrated the torture, a blatant violation of what our country stands for.
My buddy told me this story (and I'm not sure if this is true or not), but when a new president takes office, the Powers that Be pull him aside into a special meeting and they tell him how it's going to be. The new president steps out of that meeting a few shades grayer. I once saw a chart (yeah, on the internet) about the security clearance of the President. It was pretty far down the chart.
It was my belief that O had good intentions in mind, but that those with the real power hold the reigns. It's my belief that the ones in control are not elected every four years. The ones that get elected, those guys are just the figureheads. Real world power doesn't go out when an old president retires.
It will be pretty interesting, though, to see the line of clowns that step up for the GOP nomination. The last time around it was a full-on joke.
Hillary? What do you think?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
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Aristotle identifies three kinds of ideal constitution—each of which describes a situation in which those who rule pursue the common good—and three corresponding kinds of perverted constitution—each of which describes a situation in which those who rule pursue narrow and selfish goals. The three kinds of constitution, both ideal and perverted, are differentiated by the number of persons they allow to rule. Thus “rule by one” is monarchy in its ideal form and tyranny in its perverted form (see tyrant); “rule by the few” is aristocracy in its ideal form and oligarchy in its perverted form; and “rule by the many” is “polity” in its ideal form and democracy in its perverted form.
"Democracy" is "rule by many" in it's perverted form - LOL.
I always like his ideal of "polity" I once read:
Drawing randomly from the pool of qualified candidates for a limited term with little or no compensation.
Keeping it real, Old School.
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