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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 1, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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EDIT: REPORT IS DONE. THANKS FOR THE HELP, EVERYONE
Full disclosure: I’m posting this topic for a research paper for an anthropology class. I’ve seen these sorts of threads generally go down in flames, but I’m hoping the fact that this isn’t my first post here, and that I’ve been (I like to think) productive member here will engender me at least a modicum of goodwill. Post #2 is a survey and I will be grateful for anyone who’s willing to share their answers, and post #3 is (are?) my answers and some thoughts, because I don’t ask anyone to share anything I am unwilling to share. Here's a link to an offsite version of the survey:
That being said, I do honestly find this an interesting question, and would love to hear any discussion about it, regardless of completion of the survey.
So, do rock climbers think that rock climbing is an “extreme sport”?
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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1. How old are you? Are you male or female? How long have you been rock climbing?
2. What percentage of your time climbing do you spend participating in the following types of climbing:
-top-roping
-free climbing, sport
-free climbing, trad
-aid climbing
-free soloing
3. What type of climbing that you participate in do you enjoy most?
4. Which of these factors to you enjoy most about climbing: physical challenge, mental challenge (e.g. problem solving), psychological challenge (e.g. overcoming fear), excitement, internal reflection.
5. Which of the factors listed above do you experience most while climbing?
6. Who do you most enjoy climbing with: solo, with just a partner, in a group/social setting?
7. Do you most enjoy climbing below, at, or above your physical limit?
8. What is your approach to the potential risk inherent in rock climbing: to mitigate it, accept it, or embrace it?
9. What is the longest fall you’ve taken while climbing?
10. Have you ever been injured while climbing? How severely? How many times?
11. Do you think rock climbing an extreme sport, in general, and the way you most do it?
12. What are some activities that are extreme sports in your opinion?
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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1. How long have you been rock climbing?
33 year old male, climbing for 3 years.
2. What percentage of your time climbing do you spend participating in the following types of climbing:
-top-roping 35%
-free climbing, sport 40%
-free climbing, trad 25%
-aid climbing 0%
-free soloing 0%
3. What type of climbing that you participate in do you enjoy most?
trad
4. Which of these factors to you enjoy most about climbing: physical challenge, mental challenge (e.g. problem solving), psychological challenge (e.g. overcoming fear), excitement, internal reflection.
Internal reflection
5. Which of the factors listed above do you experience most while climbing?
Psychological challenge
6. Who do you most enjoy climbing with: solo, with just a partner, in a group/social setting?
partner.
7. Do you most enjoy climbing below, at, or above your physical limit?
Below.
8. What is your approach to the potential risk inherent in rock climbing: to mitigate it, accept it, or embrace it?
Mitigate it.
9. What is the longest fall you’ve taken while climbing?
10'
10. Have you ever been injured while climbing? How severely? How many times?
No.
11. Do you think rock climbing an extreme sport, in general, and the way you most do it?
No, and no.
12. What are some activities that are extreme sports in your opinion?
Free soloing, BASE jumping, big wave surfing, Class V kayaking, deep free diving.
I’ve been rock climbing for about three years and when I tell someone who is not a rock climber that it is something I do the two most common reactions are “Isn’t that dangerous?” and “Aren’t you scared” to which my answers are “Not the way I do it” and “Sometimes, which is why I do it in a way that isn’t dangerous.” The public perception of rock climbing is of it as an extreme, high-risk activity but anecdotally my experiences suggest otherwise. I go to great care to mitigate potential risks inherent in rock climbing. As my experience level has grown I do things that appear riskier to people who don’t climb, but because of my knowledge and skill I know that I am not in any more danger than when I was taking fewer apparent risks, but was less skilled and knowledgeable. This is a pattern that I have observed in many other rock climbers that I know.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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Copy. I'll find someplace to host it. My interwebs kept crashing with surveymonkey, but I'll find an alternative.
My accounts open for pm's, too, for anyone who doesn't want to share publicly before I'm able to put together an offsite survey.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Yep, what DMT said.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I don't generally see cragging as an extreme sport. There have been a few exceptions along the way, but they were not in the original plan. I always approach climbing like it's a job. My profession. Even though it's not.
Use a private survey form for anything else.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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This is not railing at the OP, btw. I have never have liked the term "extreme" in this usage. When they first started calling some surfing extreme, my response was WTF?? Makes it sound like it's all crazy people doing this stuff. No doubt there are some, but lets just ignore the fact that these people have trained diligently for this activity (unless they are idiots). We still appreciate those who can go out and hunt down a mammoth and come back alive. This is modern day mammoth hunting; we are hard wired for this stuff.
edit, and the survey monkey or private survey is the way to go.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I'd say yer time would be better spent on a paper about rock clamberers
and their self-perception as iconoclasts.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
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I have never have liked the term "extreme" in this usage I don't think rock-climbing is extreme but if the person doing it makes certain choices - being a dumb n00b, onsight free solo above your normal leading comfort zone , caving without a headlamp..............where does dumb stop and extreme begin ?
These echo my opinions. It was my teacher (who's not a rock climber) repeatedly referring to rock climbing as an "extreme sport" that got my wheels turning about comparing an insiders perspective with an outsiders perspective.
And offering a constructive opinion, oppositional or no, is never annoying (at least in this context).
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
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The most challenging and most enjoyment questions? The answers felt too limiting. There was one question I could not answer at all.
The survey's for an 8 page intro to anthro paper, so I'm just looking for information that can be fairly easily dissected, hence the specifically narrow options on some of the very complex concepts.
I believe that the insider/outsider division of views on "extreme" is something that could be deeply studied, and if I were doing a masters thesis on the topic I would certainly be hassling everyone here a lot more doing pre-research for my research, so be thankful that this is just a brief snapshot of the topic. :p
And thanks to you and everyone who's taking their time to help me with my homework. :D
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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An extreme sport (or game?)
Russian Roulette
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
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Writing papers before the internet? You didn't actually have to talk to real people, did you? *shudder*
Fwiw, I am going to be printing copies of my survey out and harassing people face-to-face as well, so I'm not just relying on the lazy way out.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I took your survey, which I found interesting, but difficult because of the lack of definitions. What constitutes "extreme?" What is a "sport?"
I forgot about bullfighting and motor racing, as just two examples. I think a lot depends on the level of difficulty and the margin of safety.
Still, I rather enjoyed the thought experiment (although it was sobering to realize that I do aid climbing perhaps ten percent of the time, but I actually enjoy it quite a bit).
Best of luck!
John
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Done with survey. The type of rock climbing I do is not extreme.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Dec 1, 2014 - 02:21pm PT
I wrote a college paper in the early 80s about extreme sports :)
I quoted an article from Outside Magazine circa 1980-ish about Sylvan Saudan, one of the early commercial faces on 'Extreme skiing." The French coined the term extreme skiing (ypically from 45 to 60+ degrees slopes) in the 70s.
They were selling magazines, ski equipment and lifestyle ;)
So we owe our rad lifestyles to cheese eating wine swilling cigarette choking effeminate frenchmen with big sunglasses and pine boards for skis.
Viva la France! And off with their heads!!!!111111
DMT
Was that you?
Years ago we were taking an off day at Glacier point. ( Flakey Foont, I think) and some guy came by with a survey.
Best question:
"How has climbing affected your career choices?"
My partner:
" easy. I don't have a career."
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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I took the survey because you did a great job explaining what this is about in your OP. I hope you get some good data to mull over, and think about what's next.
If you are at a college or university I suggest you look to see if they provide you with web survey tools like REDCap or Qualtrics.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I responded as if it were 1980.
Kevin, did you complete the survey? You are a rare climber with your long career.
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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its only extreme for the belayer on the days after I eat cabbage.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I had a short career a long time ago. You have had a long career. Extreme sport did not exist when we climbed together. So, did the sports change or tbe marketing terminology? Can you imagine an op-ed in the NYTimes by a free-soloist whose granola bar sponsor was dropped? Granola bars were homemade.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Ask Barry Goldwater.
EDIT:
Or ask Ted Nugent
EDIT2
Ask Mr. Ali if a Vietnamese ever called him extreme
EDIT3:
Ask Mr. Hollyfield if doing the vampire thing with Mike Tyson was extreme
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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lefh,
You explained your reasons for limiting your responses to questions 4 & 5, per DMT's critique, but I still wish you'd framed questions 4-8 as you did in question #2.
I took the survey, but could not answer #'s 4&5.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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OP:
Tami was the first to nail it. I’d refer you to Spradley’s, “The Ethnographic Interview.”
“http://www.amazon.com/Ethnographic-Interview-James-P-Spradley/dp/0030444969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1417487021&sr=1-1&keywords=spradley+ethnographic+interview
Asking direct questions that refer to definitions is faulty. You might as well be asking “why” or “what” questions (the worst approach of all). Your instructor should have helped you with this.
There are three principles to follow:
1. Make repeated explanations of what you are attempting to do. Which is what?? Say what your intentions are up front. Participants (interviewees) won’t trust you unless you do.
2. Restate what participants say. Do not interpret. Select key statements and descriptions and say them over and over back to them. Participants will most usually elaborate. That’s the gold you’re looking for. That’s the data you analyze. From their elaborations you should be able to piece together worldviews (partially).
3. Don’t ask for meaning. Ask for use.
Enough from me on this subject.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Tami and MikeL are wise.
And no bouldering option?
I gave up pretty quickly after the first 3 questions.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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"Extreme Sports" is a media invention for the spectator sector of society. It's designed to entertain the apparent herds of "sheeple" who dare not think of doing anything the least bit dangerous but seek only the safest possible existence.
I have met people who want "adrenaline" activities like it was some kind of drug.
I climb because I personally need to. Rocks, cliffs, mountains, steep hills, etc. It feels good. I'm annoyed when people consider this "extreme." It's usually people who are very out of shape physically.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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I'm a professional anthropologist and I wish we had been given assignments like this. All I ever got was theory.
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john hansen
climber
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On the last page Tami wrote
"Extreme" for one person is probably 'boring' for another.
When Jeff Lowe read a Mark Twight article about a climb they had done together, he
said " he must have been on a different climb.."
Or something to that affect.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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What's rock climbing?????
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Well, "extreme" is a marketing gimmick. But that said, there are activities that fit the description. Things where you have to be very good and everything has to go right, or you get seriously hurt or die.
Big wave surfing. Proximity flying in squirrel suits. Skiing steep narrow chutes with cliffs. High altitude alpine climbing. The fact that the marketing folks have got ahold of these and labelled them, doesn't change what they are.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Russian Roulette, but with 2 chambers out of six filled is extreme.
Climbing is fun.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
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Lovin' all this, everybody. Thanks!
You explained your reasons for limiting your responses to questions 4 & 5, per DMT's critique, but I still wish you'd framed questions 4-8 as you did in question #2.
That would have been better. Filed away in case this ever pops up again.
I’d refer you to Spradley’s, “The Ethnographic Interview.”
Thanks for the suggestion and synopsis. In addition to the fairly simple survey the project also requires 3 more in-depth interviews, which that sounds like it would be very helpful for.
And no bouldering option?
Pebble wrestling? Eww. (Just yanking your chain-I've seen some high balls that look pretty damn extreme to me.)
I'm a professional anthropologist and I wish we had been given assignments like this.
Feel free to steal my idea and write a grant application to compare emic and etic viewpoints on extremeness (extremity?) of rock climbing. I promise I won't sue for plagiarism. Probably...
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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The way most of us do it, it's not extreme. It is not a sport unless there is direct competition.
"It's a narcissistic activity", so says Chongo Chuck.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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It's kind of amusing to imagine what the effects of sponsorship might have been on climbers from different periods:
John Salathé: new hat with feather, 15 dried apricots per day instead of 10
Harding: New Corvette and a good supply of fine red. New dress for girlfriend.
Bridwell: first man to make a trip around the moon without rocket or space suit
Beckey: Trips to put up a 5.8 A2 on every continent. New dresses for girlfriends.
About the original topic, I don't consider most climbing to be extreme, but the speed and free solo ascents are, IMO. I view extreme as more or less synonymous with risky.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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In a survey "extreme" means what you think it means. You use your own definition.
DMT is right as far as i know "extreme sports" took off from extreme skiing, the Euro definition of skiing very steep slopes, then the American version popularized by Eric Perlman, of the masters of stone video series, in his extreme skiing series, was more cliff jumping along with steeps.
At the first extreme games many of the athletes were already sick of the term be so over used in marketing, such as extreme bowling! So many people jumped on the bandwagon and called it uncool and the next year they were the x games. But I still think its a useful term and I'm not going to throw it out just because its been overused and abused for marketing. It was so uncool they changed the extreme skiing comps to "freeride comps" which doesn't make any sense because freeride is what you did when you weren't racing or training. Now all kinds of sports have "freeride" disciplines when extreme would actually make more sense.
So I tend to think extreme is a fringe expression of the sport, like Hondos solos. But TRing in a gym can't be considered extreme.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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With "Extreme" came the reclassification of outdoors folks as "athletes"...
... drop and give me $50,000
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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I just completed your survey.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Completed your survey. Interesting reading all the different takes on the topic, especially "the fet's".
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Done.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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"It's a narcissistic activity", so says Chongo Chuck.
Now there's a news flash!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I won't be responding to your survey, because I'm bone-weary listening to folks pretend they've understood something about a population from a worthless sampling of its members. Your results might tell you something about the group of responders, if you don't do dumb things with the data like averaging over different categories, but please do not pretend you know anything more than that---because you don't.
As for the "extreme" label, it is, as several have already mentioned, a characterization slapped on from the outside by commercial interests hoping to sell something. As Tami said, climbers pursue a range of activities and make various choices from day to day, so that sometimes what they are doing is mellow and other times may be extreme, and that either by choice or happenstance. This is far too complicated an concept for commercial labeling, and the solution is to tar the entire expanse of climbing activities with a single brush. You are now asking climbers, most of whom surely know better, whether this exceptionally crude generalization actually characterizes what they do.
Of course, your question isn't whether the undefined term "extreme" is appropriate in some objective sense, you are asking whether climbers themselves view what they are doing as "extreme," still an undefined term open to a considerable range of interpretation. And here we have to remember that, at least internationally, climbers have been using "extreme" in the sense of difficulty, for a long time. The French overall grading for mountain ascents has, at the top, the ED rating for "extremely difficult." And the delightfully whacky British grading system has the "extremely severe" rating as well, in which risk and difficulty are so badly conflated that it takes a second difficulty grade and a lot of experience to figure out what the rating is trying to communicate. In both the French and British cases, "extreme" was just the next adjective up the ladder from "very."
So there you have it. We don't know what "extreme" means, or at least we understand in in different ways in different contexts. To the extent that it has some meaning, it is not a universal feature of rock climbing so serves poorly as a label for the activity.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Rock climbing is a potentially dangerous sport.
Let's let this "extreme" thing die a natural death.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Took your survey thanks!
offering a constructive opinion, oppositional or no, is never annoying
If you can use an oppositional opinion to help you construct a belief without being annoyed, that's cool. But I think that constructive is more a quality of you and your human belief construction processes than of the opinion, the same as extreme.
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TomKimbrough
Social climber
Salt Lake City
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All I know is at 76 I have a very long list of dead friends.
Many of those did meet their end in the big mountains or skiing but plenty of them came to grief rock climbing.
Myself, I never do anything extreme.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Rgold's response suits me very well.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Going back to the mention of "extreme" skiing,
if you look at what Euro skiers did in the 70s-80s,
little since then has surpassed what guys like Tardivel did back then.
They were already doing this stuff before US ski video makers ever latched on. It's not always fun.
RIP just a few of those departed:
JP Auclair Andreas Fransson Magnus Kastengren Andrea Zambaldi,
Doug Coombs, Alex Lowe David Bridges, Arne Backstrom, John Brenan, Sarah Burke, Fredrik Ericsson, Allison Kreutzen, Kip Garre, Jim Jack, Aaron Karitis, Shane McConkey, Chris Onufer, Jamie Pierre, Steve Romeo, Chris Rudolph, Tony Seibert, Trevor Peterson, ... so many others that most of us don't know.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/Remembering-the-Skiers-We-Lost.html
http://www.elevationoutdoors.com/november-letter-editor/
trailer
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/downsideup/78476552
Salomon Freeski TV S6 E07 - Tempting Fear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixcFL8hOzGc&spfreload=1
http://www.denverpost.com/extremes/ci_11874810
http://madpatski.wordpress.com/2011/02/25/friday-night-video-trevor-petersen/
2012 gervasutti https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ev3rL1AbJE
1975 par Jean-Marc Boivin et Patrick Gabarrou...
Mallory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSEmYkirBoE
1987 tardivel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djXEtw8m2is
http://madpatski.wordpress.com/tag/extreme-skiing/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqhG-mDPAWY
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2014 - 09:48am PT
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Thanks again for all the help, everyone. I didn't waste anyone's time-100/100!
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