Steve's House of Smoke

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Ammon

Big Wall climber

El Cap

Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 14, 2006 - 10:37pm PT

Steve,

The message you are sending to beginner and future climbers is very dangerous. I can easily see parties getting in serious trouble, or possibly dying, by following your ethics. Getting stuck or retreating on a wall or alpine setting can be very dangerous, as you well know.

Your clean ethics also go against the number 1 rule when you are in the outdoors - be prepared!

Yes, I agree with you, climb clean if its at all possible, even if it takes longer. But you should go up on a wall prepared to replace fixed gear, rivets and bolts. Retreating off the Leaning Tower just because a head blew is a silly game.

I'm sure Werner would agree if he had to rescue your ass, the NPS would charge you for the rescue due to negligence if you got stuck because you didn't have the proper gear.

Cheers!

Standing Strong

Mountain climber

the other side

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:42pm PT

w. o. r. d.

andanother

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:46pm PT

Ammon
It sounds like you would be better suited to gym climbing.

Stop chipping holds and learn how to climb you f*#king pussy.

It's 2006.

Matt

Trad climber

places you shouldn't talk about in polite company

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:47pm PT

you just gotta love the internet

(not)

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:49pm PT

LOL!!! at andanother

WBraun

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:50pm PT

We got a guy right now soloing the Tangerine Trip and he wants to bail. But he doesn't know how. He's on the tenth pitch and we have to get him tomorrow.

We fly to the top tomorrow morning and lower a rescuer to him and then lower both the rescuer and the soloist climber to the ground.

The bail option .........

andanother

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:52pm PT

Sucks to be that guy. But it's still a MILLION times prouder than chipping a hold.

Matt

Trad climber

places you shouldn't talk about in polite company

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:52pm PT

can't you just lower him a hammer and some pins?
:)

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:55pm PT

The first 25 years of wall climbing in Zion there were NO rescues.

WBraun

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:56pm PT

andanother

You're a screwball ...........

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:56pm PT

Hey werner just out of curiosity, if this guy is bailing and can't figure it out, how will the park service handle the rescue? Will he be charged?

andanother you actually think it is prouder to be recued than pound a pin. Your a freaking idiot!

Ouch!

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:58pm PT

"can't you just lower him a hammer and some pins?"

And a spray can of Werner's orange paint. :-))

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:58pm PT

Werner...Is he injured?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:58pm PT

T2,
how do you get from not pounding a pin to needing a rescue?

andanother

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 10:59pm PT

Yeah, you can fail with dignity.
He gave it a go, and he failed. That sucks, but he can chalk it up as part of the learning process and still have some dignity.

You chip a hold, and dignity is no longer in your vocabulary.

WBraun

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:03pm PT

He's not injured, he just wants off. We tried to tell him to rap but he doesn't think he can. He wants a rescue.

We'll find out the full details tomorrow.

hobo

climber

PDX

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:06pm PT

Just a note from a big wall beginner: I think bailing off of a route because you couldn't do it clean is a very proud thing to do. Not that everyone should do it, but if that's your ethic, rad!

Alex

Werner: Are you guys gonna get going in the morning? Id love to come take some pics.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:06pm PT

That's my point Werner.
When its common knowlege that rescue is an easy out it becomes an even easier out.

WBraun

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:08pm PT

In the morning Alex. We probably will lower him to the ground.

Ron I know, but that is the way our world has gone?

We still ultimately don't know his full problem yet. We'll see tomorrow what happens.

hobo

climber

PDX

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:10pm PT

Out of curiosity

Is someone planning on lowering in from the top and simply assisting him in the rappels?

WBraun

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:11pm PT

No we lower him on our ropes from the top. No rappelling will happen.

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:14pm PT

Ron I should clarify. My statement was in regards to andanother saying "Sucks to be that guy. But it's still a MILLION times prouder than chipping a hold."

Not in regards to the actual guy needing a rescue

John Mac

Trad climber

Littleton, CO

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:20pm PT

I couldn't imagine launching up on a wall without the knowledge of how to rap with a haul bag, etc, and practice it and practiced it, to make sure the theory and the reality are the same. Where is the personal responsibility in that?

Having to be rescued because you don't want to carry a couple of hooks or a pin or two is pretty irresponsible as well. You don't have to have them racked, just leave them in your bag... A lot of fixed gear that people rely on can become unfixed pretty quick when a cable snaps or someone decides they want to add to their pin rack.

I hope the person gives a large donation to YOSAR once on the ground. It's the least they can do.

Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:20pm PT

no kidding?

it kinda bums me out that this is even possable.

i really love that "i'm fuked if i can't handle what i've gotten myself into" type of feeling. sad to know you can get down just becouse you want down.

why don't you just lower him a can of planters nuts and call it a day?

Peter Haan

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:24pm PT

This is going to be interesting. Take care, Werner.

best , PH

WBraun

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:24pm PT

I just brought this poor guys delima up because the bail off option was stressed here so much. As we see sometimes that seems like it doesn't work either.

Go easy on ourselves folks we're all only human.

Mimi

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:36pm PT

Be careful out there Werner.

Hobo: Right on regarding your on-topic post! It's a proud thing to bail if you realize you're in over your head. Route selection and knowing your limits are key. You're responsible for yourself up there regardless of YOSAR's presence. I'm glad the guy isn't injured.

It'll be interesting to hear why he wants out. If he's such a beginner, he should've selected a route easier to retreat from.

EDIT: You're right, it's not proud. It can be downright embarrassing and frustrating until you regroup and get back up there on it or something else and kick ass. It is sooo cool up there. I can't wait to get back. As YC and DR said back in 1972, "Something well begun is not lost."

Ouch!

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:36pm PT

Sometimes people get in over their heads, get stuck, freeze up, whatever. Death penalty might be a little harsh for human failings of overestimating their ability.

Impressionable people all over are getting into trouble after reading about and watching the exploits of some of our most skilled extreme adventurers.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:43pm PT

Newsflash!

Climber calls for Werner to be lowered to hold his hand while he goes potty.
lol

WBraun

climber

Sep 14, 2006 - 11:51pm PT

JIMB

Go mow your lawn, it's full of weeds.

You fuking screwballs need to get off of Ammons case.

Go take a good look at your selves in the mirror.

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Sep 15, 2006 - 12:20am PT

I couldn't agree more Mike. Every time I go up the big stone a small kit is part of the rack. A holder 2 bits and a 4 or 5 rivits is esential, in my opinion. And that is what I got out of Ammons statement as well

hobo

climber

PDX

Sep 15, 2006 - 12:21am PT

Just to clarify, I think it's proud to come down from a route because you can't make it go clean. Coming down from a route cuz it's too hard is respectable and responsible, but not necessarily proud.

On other topic:

I can't fukin imagine being lowered all the way off el cap. How long does it take for the lower? Do you guys just tie a few of your real long ropes together? I imagine that two sets of lines (one for lower, one for belay) would have to be strung from top to bottom. Is that how you guys are gonna do it? Wild!

Werner: If you remember it would be cool to see exactly how many feet el cap overhangs in that spot, i.e. measure from where the rope touches to the base.

Alex

Matt

Trad climber

places you shouldn't talk about in polite company

Sep 15, 2006 - 12:58am PT

so after ya'll lower the guy, do any SAR guys get to rap the line?

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Stoney Point

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:00am PT

I do not think you guys should pass judgement on the solo wall climber until all the facts are in.

First thing is to get the guy safely down.

Juan "Man I have a hot nurse" De Fuca

WBraun

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:03am PT

No Matt, no one rappels the lines. We will pull them back up to the top.

anachronism

Big Wall climber

Yosemite, CA

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:04am PT

if you can't do it clean (and it's been done clean) and you bail, and you get your own ass outta the mess, that is proud. Getting rescued cuz you can't figure it out (chip chip or not) is not proud. Poor guy.

Loom

climber

The Whiteboard Jungle

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:08am PT

IN THE

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:12am PT

That andanother is a screwball there can be no doubt.

I know if I thought my life was in danger and I needed to chip something to stay alive, I'd do it in a heart beat.

YOu fvckers that think climbing is some sort of test of manhood or rite of passage or some great ethical debate, or something like that, I suggest you go get yourself some situation that threatens your life every goddamned second, and that gives you no choice whatsoever in the matter.

Then you'll know that you'll do whatever it takes to stay alive.

I know little old ladies who have more guts, and a much better attitude, than some of you wankers.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:22am PT

What is the story on bailing from p10 on the Trip? Assuming you tossed or left your bag and just went with some gear and ropes, how would one get down from there and what would be required? Is it a particularly challenging retreat from where he is...?

[ Edit: I'm not advocating tossing or leaving the bag, just simplifying the question... ]

Mimi

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:25am PT

The route winds around a lot so intermediate points would have to be clipped. The bag will pose a problem. CM's book states at P4, "three rappels to ground on bolted Virginia anchors or 330' to ground."

john hansen

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:26am PT

I think its kinda steep for rappeling..

WBraun

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:28am PT

It's real overhanging healyje. We don't really know the full deal yet. But he doesn't want to try yet. Maybe he doesn't know how? Or doesn't think it's possible.

You got to bounce sometimes hard on overhanging walls to get back or down aid in places.

I don't know.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:39am PT

Thanks Werner (and Mimi and John). I would imagine a steep retreat would be all the harder with a heavy bag...

Mimi

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:47am PT

Pigs do fly, don't they?

Edit: Take shelter from pigs on the wing. Pink Floyd - Animals

Chicken Skinner

Trad climber

Yosemite

Sep 15, 2006 - 02:03am PT

The only reason I made it up the Trip and Zodiac a while back was because I was too scared to retreat and no one had been rescued yet from that side. It was sort of a given that once past a certain pitch there was no retreat. Had to deal with it. I think retreating off a wall can be scarier than finishing it.

Ken

Mimi

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 02:12am PT

I had to downclimb the Hollow Flake and reverse the penji. I crawled inside and tried to suffer, but I could not. You really take a ride and slam into that corner! All off of the original short thin LA. And then you have to jug on it nice and easy.

After bailing (my partner didn't want any part of it either) and switching to the Shield, while we fixed the Free Blast, we watched this guy basically free solo the flake up and down twice doing the Frankenstein lieback (both ways) while his girlfriend sat on the ledge holding a limp rope and staring out into the meadow. His big paws milking the rounded edge with perfect technique. I yelled over to my partner, Mike Davis (Spike) and said you gotta check this out! It was fun to watch. I'm blanking on the guy's name but he's a SOCAL climber; real tall and skinny. Pickett I think.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Sep 15, 2006 - 03:25am PT

(sorry for the thread hijack)

Werner, I bet the soloist on Tangerine Trip is not sure how to do the "downaiding" to reverse pitch 5. Maybe if he had read Andy Kirkpatrick's explanation ahead of time, he could have handled it:

http://www.psychovertical.com/?escapewall

(See second paragraph under "Retreating as a team")

Short version: fix rope at top of pitch, rap/jumar down it, placing gear to maintain contact with the rock. When you reach anchor at bottom of pitch, fix rope to it with some slack. Then jumar back up, removing gear. Then rap back down with the bag(s).

I haven't had to do this myself (yet), but I was happy to see Andy's explanation; I wasn't sure about the exact mechanics before.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Sep 15, 2006 - 04:01am PT

(back on topic)

Yes, hammerless is not for everyone on every route that has gone clean. In Yosemite, I figure hammerless is standard for Lurking Fear, Salathe', Nose, South Face of the Column, Prow (probably) and Half Dome Regular NW Face. But of course those routes don't have many fixed heads or fragile rivets/dowels. And they are pretty much beginner clean aid routes, so people on them would likely not know how to replace heads or drill bolts even if there were many.

Most of the remaining routes don't (normally) go clean (except if you are Steve Grossman on the Muir or something), so people will have the hammer and expect to use it.

Maybe I'm off base with these route lists, but I would like to see an example or two of a Yosemite route that is often done clean, but has some fixed gear that might need replacement. Any ideas? Lurking Fear? Tangerine Trip? Prow? Ten Years After? South Face of Watkins? Having an actual route or two in mind would help keep a "hammerless" discussion more realistic, I think.

As for Zion, I can't really judge, because I haven't done much aid on sandstone. I can definitely see from trip reports like Disco Inferno, how a bolt kit to replace blown out holes would help on some routes:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=166280&f=30&b=0

I don't know to what extent there are fixed heads in Zion - probably not many, right? More bolts and fixed pins for the fixed gear?

In the past at least, usually the main decision on aid/wall ethics was whether to bring a bolt kit or not. Hammerless was more for the real experts or for the easy clean routes.

I did many ("trade route" = easy) walls with no bolt kit. On the Dawn Wall I had a "joke" bolt kit which was a drill bit with no holder and a Leeper pointed hook. My theory was to retreat if I couldn't do a move, instead of adding a hole/bolt, but use the drill if a rivet was broken/unusable. Up high in the Dihedrals (Dawn Wall) there was a very rusty cabled rivet hanger which was pretty much fixed to one of Harding's rivets. I didn't think I could remove it for sure, so I figured I'd better just try weighting it instead of trying to remove it destructively. Fortunately I only weigh 135 and it didn't blow. After that my partner discussed it and we agreed it was kinda dumb to not have a good way to replace blown fixed gear, as Ammon suggested. So on the P.O. Wall we had a real drill holder and sure enough, a dowell snapped (on my partner), and he drilled a replacement on the spot before bailing to attend to his cut hand. So the bolt kit can be good to have, although it can easily be abused if you don't have enough self-control or willingness to take a given risk. There are also judgement calls like Ricardo's on South Seas / P.O. Wall where a head placment was too blown out to be usable. At least the bolt kits are not used so much anymore to add excessive 1/4" belay bolts, given the ASCA work to mostly cut those down to just 2 good ones.

hardman

Trad climber

love the eastern sierras

Sep 15, 2006 - 08:55am PT

apples oranges

retreating, climbing clean

Ammon sorry dude but very weak!

Werner Ammon started this thread open for full critiscm.

anyway Werner have you seen a couple of gunkies either on Salathe wall or the nose? one guy has a bunch of tattoos. how are they doing? tell em John O said word.

radical being resuced is the ultimate humilation. imo better to be rescued alive than not being here at all.

anyone that chips holds deserves a right cross.

Ultrabiker

Ice climber

Eastside

Sep 15, 2006 - 08:57am PT

Werner...be safe! Once again, thanks for stick'n your ass out on a limb for a fellow human, regardless of their situation!

steelmnkey

climber

Vision man...ya gotta have vision...

Sep 15, 2006 - 09:35am PT

Wait a second... the dude sacked up enough to get ten pitches up, but he can't rappel?? Are these like hideous raps or what? Something don't add up here...

Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 15, 2006 - 09:43am PT

but if he's soloing hasn't he basicly rapped each pitch once already?

much love goes out to the sar guys, risking life and limb so we can play on our vacations.

(or stop playing when its not fun anymore)

mooser

Trad climber

seattle

Sep 15, 2006 - 10:17am PT

Dang...there's a buttload of righteous indignation in these posts about a situation whose details haven't even emerged yet. A guy is 10 pitches up, believes he needs a rescue for whatever reason, and the judges, juries, and executioners have already done their work. Man, I wish I was that crystal clear on everything! And Werner (along with several others), the guy who's gonna put his butt on the line for this guy, is one of the few who's being incredibly judicious in his assessment of the whole situation. I suggest heeding his earlier advice: "Go easily on ourselves, folks, we're only human."

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 10:39am PT

Someone get this snail-eyed soloist to start his own thread, this is Steve's House Of Smoke damnit!

Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 15, 2006 - 11:25am PT

" Dang...there's a buttload of righteous indignation in these posts"

i love it how there is always somebody on these forums that sees a thread as an opportunity to say "you guys are jerks, but I'M not! becouse i'm able to simply point out thay YOU are jerks".

mooser

Trad climber

seattle

Sep 15, 2006 - 11:40am PT

Euroford: Sorry you got the impression I've called anyone a jerk. I have not. Nor have I implied that I am not fully capable of being a jerk. I am. I am merely saying that a good percentage of 50+ posts have been passing judgment on some unnamed guy who no one seems to know by name, or by circumstance. If anything, I'm saying, "Let's not assume HE'S a jerk just because he doesn't want to/believe he can go up or down without assistance."

Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 15, 2006 - 12:05pm PT

i'm just being facetious and a smartass. not myself trying to be a jerk, at least not seriously.

yeah maybe the guy dropped his rack, or dropped his water, or something and can't deal with it and needs a rescue, and i wish the fella no harm and hope he makes landfall safely.

i just like the commitment factor, the requirment of being self sufficiant and responsable for yourself. what appears on the surface here is a guy gets himself in over his head and can readily pull the plug on his adventure courtesy of the braves souls from yosar.

knowing this, it will be hard to stare up at elcap next summer (as i am at this point intending to do) and have the same feeling of commitment.

some may call having a hammer and a boltkit on you as "carrying courage in your rucksack", but this ability for readily available rescue goes far beyond that.

i wonder if this guy would have decieded against starting up if no such thing as yosar existed?

i believe such a thing as yosay should exist, but i also believe its something that should only come into action during the most dire cases, like last years storm that claimed some lives and could have claimed more if not for the rescue fellas.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 12:16pm PT

Tim,
that was my point with the 25 years in Zion comment.

There WAS no rescue so people HAD to be self-sufficient.

If everyone had to pay for their own rescue I suspect you would see safer more conservative climbing endeavors.
While we may exalt adventurous behavior we should not fail to recognize the cost.

climber

The Eye of the Snail

Sep 15, 2006 - 12:26pm PT

haha, yes, I'm looking forward to the Soloist's House of Snails thread.

My E! True Yosemite Story:

Hopped on the ZM solo way back when. I was barely staying afloat but managed a fair bit of climbing. Anyway, got to pitch 7 or 8 (which meant fixing plus a full day and night and another day, I think) and realized I really didn't want to be up there at all. Wanted my mommy bad. Things can happen way up there to blow your doors off. In my case a combination of pulling a steep roof (exposure + commitment), taking a ginormous fall, and spending a windy night bouncing around on the ledge melted my head bones. I knew I couldn't rap off. I also didn't have the guts to call for a rescue straight out (which does take guts.) Spent an hour or two planning an accidental "dropping" of the rack in order to get rescued, but didn't have the guts to do that either. Werner would've looked in my eyes and known anyway. Eventually I chose the most chicken of all choices and went up.

PS: Talked to some guys this summer that bailed from the 9 O' Clock. Whoa!

Kartch

climber

Mutahna

Sep 15, 2006 - 12:32pm PT

Yo - I didn't know you woke up this early.

BTW only sissy little boys bail, what's my count hmmm; p-sun, t-stone, s-shot, organasm, L Angel, and some other crap N of Zion.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Sep 15, 2006 - 12:35pm PT

Ammon,
Where in my postings do I advocate that people of any level of experience climb beyond their ability or in a reckless fashion? While I stress boldness and committment on established clean climbs and challenge people to consider the impact of each and every placement in any setting, this does not make you rescue bait. A hammer is no substitute for judgement nor are my views. Nobody can be faulted for looking after their own safety in an emergency.
There is an old adage that climbing is only as dangerous as you are. Boldness is a personal choice and style always wrestles with fear and insecurity which is a crucial part of the drama that is climbing. Use force sparingly and as a last resort is the ethic that I am promoting.Try first, compromise last.
Relatively few walls go clean and are obvious candidates for hammerless climbing while on the sharp end. The same folks that are advocating clean aid on sandstone will also usually recommend that the second have a hammer of some sort to unseat nut placements rather than ripping them out by yanking on a sling or funkness device which leads to more wear and tear. Don't confuse clean and hammerless. Having a hammer, pitons and a small bolt kit on most outings is only common sense,the issue is when and where the use of this technology is appropriate.
Do you really want to kneecap adventure up in the wild air by encouraging people not reach within themselves when challenged and scared? The risks and insecurity involved in climbing and how we individually transcend them in order to succeed or fail is the core of adventure and the true soul of alpinism.
PS Just where was that Bolt Ladder Of Shame on the Turning Point that you were trying to lash me to earlier?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 12:40pm PT

Comes back to the same argument I use about guns;

It ain't what you got. Its what you DO with what you got.

Kupandamingi

Trad climber

Berkeley

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:05pm PT

Back off topic.......I don't know any of the details, but I can tell you this - I know the TT soloist and he is not some snail-eyed noob. He is a very experienced climber (25+ years) with a number of el cap ascents (and descents) under his belt. He has bailed off the shield from mid-way up the headwall years ago as well as other precarious bails in incliment weather of more recent vintage - bottom line is 'not knowing how' to bail or being too scared to bail are NOT the issues at hand.

He is also a hardass, stubborn son of bitch (himself involved in the rescue craft) for whom a decision to call in SAR would be one of the most difficult to reach decisions of his life. I can only imagine the internal turmoil that led him to that choice, so (as Werner and Juan have suggested) lets not pass judgement on a situation whose details we don't know.

Its a shame this got dragged into the clean aid discussion as that is also NOT an issue. I have no doubt he'd pound a pin or many, leave all gear/bags or jettison it if he thought that meant he could self rescue.

God-speed to Werner and crew

Ben Rumsen

Social climber

No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:40pm PT

" Yes, hammerless is not for everyone on every route that has gone clean. In Yosemite, I figure hammerless is standard for Lurking Fear, Salathe', Nose, South Face of the Column, Prow (probably) and Half Dome Regular NW Face. But of course those routes don't have many fixed heads or fragile rivets/dowels. And they are pretty much beginner clean aid routes, so people on them would likely not know how to replace heads or drill bolts even if there were many. " -

The Prow does go clean ( did it this year - 25 years after I climbed it the first time - with pins ! ) but there are lots and lots of fixed heads. A hammer and a head kit will be needed by somebody - sooner or later!!

NeverSurfaced

Trad climber

Someplace F*#ked!

Sep 15, 2006 - 01:43pm PT

What did Steve House do to piss off Ammon?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 02:04pm PT

I heard he pissed ON Ammon.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Sep 15, 2006 - 02:11pm PT

Steve wrote:

"Where in my postings do I advocate that people of any level of experience climb beyond their ability or in a reckless fashion? While I stress boldness and committment on established clean climbs and challenge people to consider the impact of each and every placement in any setting, this does not make you rescue bait. A hammer is no substitute for judgement nor are my views. Nobody can be faulted for looking after their own safety in an emergency.
There is an old adage that climbing is only as dangerous as you are. Boldness is a personal choice and style always wrestles with fear and insecurity which is a crucial part of the drama that is climbing. Use force sparingly and as a last resort is the ethic that I am promoting.Try first, compromise last."

I know of Ammon's climbing attitudes and accopmlishments mostly from what he's posted about them here. However as an outsider peeping in, if I read this and didn't know about the preceding 400 posts on this topic, I'd think you two were in the same camp. Maybe you actually are?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 02:38pm PT

Damn peacemakers always gotta pee in the punchbowl.

Us gun owners know how to enjoy a lively shootout.
(kidding ok,.. just kidding)

nvrws

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 02:56pm PT

andanother: Dude get a grip..requiring a rescue after "giving it a go" is not failure, its bloody stupid. He puts a lot of people at risk (not that they don't enjoy it) but it is still un-necessary. Not to mention expensive. Your attitude towards this situation is a total lack of insight. Do you know how dangerous riding in a helicopter is? Do you know how dangerous rescuing a scared/freaked out person clinging to a wall is? Do you know that people die doing those things? But hey better whine for rescue than chip or clip or heaven forbid keep it together enough to let someone talk you down from a scary place ya don't want to be. WB is right, you are a nutjob.

This post is not a dig on the guy stuck on TT. just the attitude of andanother.

nvrws

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 03:01pm PT

Maybe the guy is thinking about Chris Robbins... Gruesome outcome while rapping on TT many years ago. My friends named a route after him, I think he had started the project prior to his untimely death.."Valiant Flail to no Avail"

Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 15, 2006 - 03:36pm PT

for a brief spiel on climbing hammerless:

having recently climbed a wall hamerless; for the purpose of greater commitment, greater challange and lighter weight, a part of me regrets having done it that way.

there was plenty of manky fixed gear (old 1/4" drive in bolts with death hangers) at the belays. while they managed to suffer our passage the hardware was obviously nearing the end of its lifespan and a couple of new bolts have sprouted up as a result.

as we were in a position to do so easily i feel a bit unresponsable for having not done some replacement. we had the skill and time to remove the existing hardware and do it right, and prevent future parties from feeling the need to create more holes.

i will endevour to climb clean where applicable, but in the future will at minimum be equiped to perform proper fixed gear replacement.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 03:51pm PT

Tim,
I really don't think you'd be in line for much criticism if you did a bona fide renovation of a decades old route.

mark miller

Social climber

Reno

Sep 15, 2006 - 04:30pm PT

You Morons making judgement on others. We don't know what happened so let's wait and hope the climber is OK.

If any of you boneheads realized that the soloist had already made it up 10 pitches and has already led, rappelled, cleaned and hauled pitch 5, he might know what he's doing...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 04:39pm PT

Lighten up there a tad Mark.

Nature of the beast and all. If the guy is really in a bad way then, as we speak, our guy Werner is on the case.
Werner and I give each other chit, but I say the guy on the wall is lucky to have him.

If the guy really DID pussy out then the flak is well deserved, n'est pas?

Burt

Gym climber

hookers and blow baby...

Sep 15, 2006 - 07:58pm PT

Is he bailing because he is trying to do it clean? A little confused, so if he has pins and he is bailing what does that make him "another"? How do you get nailing a pin on a route to chipping a hold? Ron O chipped placements to make a clean one is that wrong? *Ron I got your email but you are an intimidating mother Fer to write back* just kidding talk to you later. He sounds like this guy flew a little to high and now he is melting his wings. Wbraun just bullhorn the cost of the rescue that should get him moving!!!
Kurt "Burt" Arend

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 08:08pm PT

Burt,
I think you may be onto something!
Bullhorn the bill.
Sack up or pony up.
lol

Mimi

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 08:23pm PT

The guy's not off yet? What's going on up there?

It is too bad that Werner inadvertently hijacked Ammon's thread. LOL! This mixed thread stuff can get pretty whacky.

no_one

Big Wall climber

Hurricane, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 09:18pm PT

Ron, you said "If everyone had to pay for their own rescue I suspect you would see safer more conservative climbing endeavors."

Yah, and more chicken bolts and more bashing of pins on those newly established C3 lines. I guarantee all the people pushing this, "climb clean or die trying" ethic, would bash a pin before they flipped the bill for an unfourtunate circumstance that left them dangling 1000 feet off the deck of a sevierly overhanging wall with the only thing keeping them from the top is one pin. Sh!t, lets be real, most of these self rightous, finger pointing, never straying from absolute perfect ethics climbers would nail several and tell know one.

I agree Ammon

Steve

no_one

Big Wall climber

Hurricane, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 09:28pm PT

Burt said "Wbraun just bullhorn the cost of the rescue that should get him moving!!! "

Yep, even if he is one of the people jumping on Ammons case!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 10:13pm PT

Steve,

all the more justification for that layer of bureaucracy and regulation since you yourself admit that climbers won't behave responsibly on their own.

And when have you been climbing in the Sevier Valley? I thought you were putting up routes near Colorado City so you could spend time with your other wives you Mormon Rastafarian you.
(but don't worry, I won't tell know one)

signed
a "finger pointing, never straying from absolute ethics climber" most of the time,...lol

no_one

Big Wall climber

Hurricane, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 10:23pm PT

Ron, you leave my wives out of this!!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 10:27pm PT

Only if you don't use them as sherpa/belay slaves.

no_one

Big Wall climber

Hurricane, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 10:34pm PT

Actualy they serve a higher purpose. They are part of a my grand plan to keep a dark uninviting energy shrouding and protecting the rock out there from them pin pounding pvssies!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2006 - 11:04pm PT

What wives?

I don't see no wives.

Mimi

climber

Sep 15, 2006 - 11:54pm PT

Where's Werner? How did the rescue go today or was it called off?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 15, 2006 - 11:56pm PT

Hopefully they aren't still at it...

WBraun

climber

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:04am PT

Nah, it was over this afternoon. He got lowered to the ground.

Very cold and windy today. I did not go on this rescue, I stayed in the El Cap meadows. The boss wanted back-up in case something else came up. The rescue went smooth, except when they hauled the ropes back to the top. The wind blew about 500 feet of static line over the top and back into the woods. The guy was out of water and dehydrated.

Mimi

climber

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:05am PT

That should've been a relatively easy pluck. The weather was stellar today.

He's probably dealing with paperwork.

Cool news, Werner.

The weather posted only 8-9 mph winds and a sunny 70.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:06am PT

How bad?
How far from the top?

WBraun

climber

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:10am PT

He was on the tenth pitch Ron.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:29am PT

So he was only carrying enough for half the route?
Couldn't down nail like Robbins 30+ years ago?

john hansen

climber

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:35am PT

Does Fed Ex deliver up there???

Standing Strong

Mountain climber

the other side

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:36am PT

What the hell are you guys talking about? How do people discuss this here? Just shut your mouf and stop trying to show off how knowledgeable you are until the details get worked out. Not that they're any of your business. You guys don't even know.

Mimi

climber

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:38am PT

Chill out dude. We're all concerned for the guy.

Boy, Werner, that's windy!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:39am PT

Yes John, but not overnight.

Standing Strong

Mountain climber

the other side

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:44am PT

Dude. Shut your mouths. I challenge everyone except Ammon and Werner to shut-the-f up until you know what's going on. Let this be the last word.

Mimi

climber

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:50am PT

What's the deal? He a friend of yours? Why the outrage?

Roger Edit: Since you posted the same weak sauce elsewhere, I'll repeat what Mr. Ron posted: Are you speaking from experience?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:55am PT

Sssshhh!
(Mimi, he wants the last word.)

Mimi

climber

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:56am PT

Hah, not on my watch!

Minerals

Social climber

The Deli

Sep 16, 2006 - 02:18am PT

(Like I give a f*#k about last words…)

I’ve gotta go with the SS on this one… And whatever happened to keeping on topic? The other thread concerning the soloist on TT went nowhere. Has this turned into a ‘post in the wrong thread’ thread? Or are we a bit snippy these days (yeah, the whole lot of us)? A little too quick on the draw?

You people have no idea who you are talking smack about, nor any of the details concerning this issue. What, work got the better of you? Sick of life in the shitty? Hate your job? Wish you were out climbing like the climber that you are slandering? Must be something, because most of you are acting like a bunch of little princess bitches… like you are so far above this person… the person that you don’t even know anything about (not to mention any details of the situation that they were in). What would happen if you were put in the position that they faced? What if? Well, considering that you don’t know squat about what we are discussing (funny how that works), why even bother to waste the time by posting your demeaning banter? Does it make up for the fact that you try to make yourselves feel better by harping on someone else who is actually out climbing when you are sitting in front of a stupid piece of plastic, metal, and glass?

If you had any clue about who you are slandering, or were talking to that person face to face right now, I damn well bet you wouldn’t even say anything close to what you feel comfortable typing here. Most of you on this entire forum couldn’t come close to this climber’s free climbing abilities, not to mention their overall climbing experience. Go piss in your own Wheaties; you’re becoming tiresome, and you’re just bitching at yourselves.

Hey Piton Ron, why you gotta be such an as#@&%e all of the time? You act like you are King, like everyone else should bow down to you and your ideas, like you hold some key to the grand scheme of all climbing. I find it quite funny that you sit behind the security of your computer and slander a climber because they had to be rescued. Easy to talk smack when you are sipping a glass in your cozy home, eh? When was the last time that you climbed El Cap, or something of the sort (degrading mole hills don’t count)? Have you ever climbed the Trip? And for that matter, are you currently capable of climbing any of the routes that were established by those climbers whom you wish to be so derogatory towards? Have you ever climbed Cosmic Trauma?? Clean?? How many aid routes have you repeated ‘clean’ or ‘hammerless’ (however you want to put it) that were originally done with pins and a hammer? Be real here. Or do you just establish ‘gumby elevators’ for the FA credit and the so-called glory, with heavy hammer in hand? Regardless of whether climbers use a hammer or not, doesn’t the amount of traffic seen on your “trade routes” have an affect on the rock with regard to erosion/degradation?? If these routes entailed A4 nailing from the FA on, would they still see as much traffic as they do today? How much damage would we see on such a route today?

I probably wouldn’t think much of all of your smack-talk, except for the fact that I met you last January and have experienced “The World of Ron’s Kingdom” and to tell you the truth, I’ve had about enough of your self-righteous spew (as I’m sure many others have as well). No, I’m not going to cater to your every move; I’ve got myself to think about once in a while… as do the rest of us. But what do I know; I was just trying to be nice to a fellow climber… little did I know…

Yes, your message about rock preservation is definitely something to be heeded by the climbing community, but let’s be real – you weren’t the first person to ever come up with that notion, as simple as the idea is. And, you aren’t exactly the poster child for any environmental organization either (see recent Burning Man thread or ask me if you want more details…). You know, if you would put your serious case of ‘short-man’s complex’ away for a while and deal with people on a realistic level, you might actually make a few friends. Oh well, I may be bitter at times, but you are the one who is stuck being a true as#@&%e. What are you trying to prove?

-Bryan Law

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 16, 2006 - 04:18am PT

Hah!

Now I see why my phone rings! Sound the alarms; it looks like Bryan has run out of beer.

Tell you what sport, why don't you just post up your FA list and we can do a side by side?
No?
Well how about a marksmanship contest?
Oh yeah, not that either.

Well the temps have finally dropped and its time to go climbing (after some shut eye).
I suppose those who are halfway through their lives with nothing to show for it can sit around throwing stones, resentful that others are having a lark.

I know who I'M happy being.

Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 16, 2006 - 09:52am PT

"won't it be great when we are in 8th grade next year!"

jesus guys grow up. the fella tries to russle your feathers and you fall for it hook line and sinker.

HalHammer

Trad climber

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:17pm PT

"Pretty damn weak Ammon.

If a route goes clean you should just go ahead and take and use pins?

Yes you should also take a bolt kit on tangerine trip so that you can toss in some bolts if it gets hard. Is that what you are saying Ammon?

Perhaps the real current message we are right now sending to beginner and future aid climbers is, don't worry about trashing the F*uck out of any route you do, bash pins and don't even consider conserving the resource, and if that doesn't work out then someone will rescue you anyway."

Weak,,,,I think Ron's reply has got to be the weakest post ever posted on supertopo....More pathetic than any of that lame wanker bull sh#t posted by Rajmit and Dr. Kodofag. He didn't say anything remotely close to the bull sh#t suggested. Go slander Go slander! Pathetic radicals that are so predisposed to their opinions do more harm than help. Take the lameness away please!

Josh Higgins

Trad climber

San Diego

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:29pm PT

I say that being so unprepared for a climb that you can't even retreat with a big wall rack is pretty damn low dignity. That guy is not putting others at risk for his foolish endeavour. Reminds me of the time a 250+ pound woman went off the diving board at a pool I worked at. She couldn't swim, but "wanted to know what it was like." Idiot.... If that really just can't get himself down (no other issues), and tried to SOLO the wall, he's an idiot.

Edit... Haha, I responded to the first page I think, forgetting there are multiple pages. I, also, am an idiot... :)

BPorter

Big Wall climber

Quartz Hill, Ca

Sep 16, 2006 - 12:47pm PT

Hey Boys,

Up here on the 9th pitch of Zodiac with my wireless laptop. I've run out of water, and dropped my 70 m static rope. I've got a shiteload of pins, a chisel and a bolt kit, but I think I'm screwed. If somebody could send me Piton Ron's email address, I'm sure he could talk me down.....or up! Don't really want to call for a rescue.

Cheers

Cracko

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 16, 2006 - 01:07pm PT

LOL!!!!

Then there's "performance art" like peeing in a glass and drinking it. Hey, you don't suppose this could be a strategy against dehydration?

Fear not Cracko. We are assembling a cracko research team under the motto;

"Master beta for a ,uh, er....." never mind.

Time to go climbing. Cheers folks.

Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 16, 2006 - 05:52pm PT

this thread has made an impact on me.

i was out walking the dog was thinking i would LOVE some good ol briskit for dinner, something i can only get by making myself since moving to this godforsaken place.

i laughed to myself becosue my next thought was "maybe i could eat dinner at steves house of smoke?"

golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

Sep 18, 2006 - 06:48pm PT

sheeesh,

go away for the weekend and look what happens.

lol

dr kodofag?

performing art?

could it be that ammon and steve were together in the house and the cards burnt up in smoke?

lol

btw, unless it is a trade route there is a bolt kit in the haulbag.

Splater

climber

Grey Matter

Sep 18, 2006 - 09:56pm PT

Sounds like Rick Piggot (moved to Reno/Tahoe area)

mimi wrote:
His big paws milking the rounded edge with perfect technique. I yelled over to my partner, Mike Davis (Spike) and said you gotta check this out! It was fun to watch. I'm blanking on the guy's name but he's a SOCAL climber; real tall and skinny. Pickett I think"

Mimi

climber

Sep 18, 2006 - 10:28pm PT

Yeah, that's his name. He climbed the flake, downclimbed it and climbed and downclimbed it again. I'm not sure why he bothered trailing a rope. I wish I'd had the camera.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Sep 18, 2006 - 11:19pm PT

Whoaaaa, I must be missing something HUGE here. These posts were fun, then got a bit out of hand, was not making me feel particularly good about anything so I've just been lurking. I truly do enjoy hearing everyone's perspectives on all of this, but like I said I just don't get it. If a route was put up on pins/bolts/whatever that used a hammer, and then gets done and altered enough times that the rock now allows for someone to manage to do the non-fixed moves clean, that means that forever more every climber that ever does the route has to ignore how the first ascent party did the route and also do it clean??? I would never argue that using pins at this point is the very best style that the route could be done, but is this in any way realistic? So as soon as someone is as talented and/or brave to manage to pull off a route's non-fixed moves clean, then noone else can climb it unless they have the same talent/risk tolerance? And what happens when things change? (rock breaks or changes, fixed piece pulls, etc.). It is just all so contrived, it's not like we're talking about some pristine crack that has never been hammered here. So what if a crack that has seen much prior hammering has a bit more, just because since the first ascent someone has managed to climb it without hammering? I climbed the Shield for my 40th birthday, nearly ten years ago. It had been climbed "clean" prior to my ascent. I have to put the word "clean" in parenthasis, since the "clean" ascent did use many fixed (non-clean) placements. Did I also do a "clean" ascent? NO. I proudly used whatever I felt necessary, including pitons. As had about a zillion parties before me, and about a zillion thereafter. Does the knowledge that there are some parties that have manaqed to climb the route "clean" detract from my ascent? Not the slightest bit in my mind. Obviously there are those out there that disagree, so be it. Sorry, but the climb ruled, we had a gas, one of the finest experiences of my life. I toast all who have had this fine experience!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 19, 2006 - 12:23am PT

Well, OK, Hummer.
I know there must be lots of residual smoke in that gym clouding your thinking but consider the long term impact of repeated hammering that has proven to be unnecessary. Saying that because a hammer was originally required you get to screw things up for everyone here on is a bit like handing a bill to future climbers that was vastly more than promised...(cough, cough)

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Sep 19, 2006 - 12:54am PT

Hey, Piton Ron:

I can see your point of view, I guess I sort of expected a response like that. I can just see both sides of this story. Obviously there are climbers that are way into climbing without pins, and if a route reaches a point where that is possible that's what they want to do. I'm climbing Lurking Fear soon, and I do not plan on using a hammer, even though hammers have definitely been used in the past. But I also have no issue whatsoever with someone using pins on routes like the Shield, or even Lurking Fear, since these routes have already been altered in the past to the point where they can now be climbed clean. And the more they get climbed, the more possible clean climbing is for the mass of climbers, and the less pins will get used anyway. I personally don't think in the grand scheme of things it is going to make much difference to the rock in the long run. AND at this point it's all contrived anyway. That's my opinion, and I also respect yours.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 19, 2006 - 01:14am PT

I only wish that you were always right about more hammering enhancing the "clean climbability" but placements DO get blown out.

Sorry Hummer but I get the feeling that you are unwilling to admit that you are being selfish.

Again its the "taint" of having been hammered that is held up as a smokescreen because people don't want to admit that they just wanna do what they just wanna do regardless of result.

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Stoney Point

Sep 19, 2006 - 01:24am PT

I am going to try to fed ex a six pack of beer to climbers on Dolt Tower?

Mimi

climber

Sep 19, 2006 - 01:24am PT

Humjob, what would your patients say if you left their teeth full of holes? It would be Yugochine for you.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Sep 19, 2006 - 01:53am PT

Piton Ron:

I'm missing your accusation of selfishness, just wording my opinion. Personally, I prefer clean climbing. But I'm not about to do any crazy clean moves that strike me as dangerous on any route where the majority of climbers feel as I do and still use pins. If I'm reading you correctly, would it not be selfish to demand that everyone clean climb every route no matter how dicey, just because that is what you happen to be into? And that prior hammering thang does indeed strike me as a pretty big taint...

Mimi:

I would never argue that leaving my patients with holes in their teeth would be terribly wrong. But what is your point/analogy regarding climbing? Went right over my head, must be late...

Ahhhh, maybe you meant if there are holes there, then fill them...with pitons! Problem is, I don't think my patients would appreciate pitons in their teeth. I suppose I could ask, but I'm thinking they would prefer something more esthetic and better fitting.

Mimi

climber

Sep 19, 2006 - 02:00am PT

No, it sounds like it went in one ear and out the other, with minimal resistance or damage.

The analogy is this: do you or don't you want to contribute to the big ugly? There are tons of routes out there that you don't have to hammer on anymore. Why can't you pick one of those until you're ready for the harder ones? No big mystery. With all the info. and new gear out there, not trying is neither noble nor sporting.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 19, 2006 - 08:04am PT

It would be selfish if I just wanted it preserved for ME, but I want it preserved for everyone that could enjoy it, but you don't seem to care about them..
If you don't think it would be safe enough without a hammer back off.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Sep 19, 2006 - 11:42pm PT

Mimi and Piton Ron:

I should probably let this rest (hey, we just might agree on that!), but this is so darn fun! Mimi, I'm still missing your analogy, but perhaps YOU missed my post a few earlier where I mentioned climbing Lurking Fear soon without a hammer. And now you are shredding me for not picking a route that I don't have to hammer on? Uh, I did. My point is, if someone else wants to hammer on Lurking Fear, I personally have zero problem with this. Sounds like it will actually be necessay someday when a head blows. I know that we will never agree on this; we will simply have to agree that we do not agree. That's cool. You both remind me of some of the dentists on Dentaltown. These dentists see everything as black and white, if you don't do it the way do then you are WRONG! The reality is, there are many ways to practice dentistry, just as there are many ways to rock climb. Piton Ron, you talk about preserving climbs that have already been hammered? As I've said previously, I can see your point on a virgin climb that has never seen a hammer. But routes that have already seen mass hammering, I still don't see that a bit more matters much. And is it more selfish to hammer on a route that most other climbers hammer on (at the annoyance of climbers like you), or to demand that the majority of climbers never use a hammer so that you will be happy (at the annoyance of the majority)? I think any and all ascents of El Cap are noble and sporting. Some more than others, sure, but all none the less. But no worries, I respect your view on this, again we can agree that we disagree. The beauty is, what you, Mimi, and I think really does not matter. Climbers will ignore us and do whatever they want on these routes anyway. Heh.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 19, 2006 - 11:47pm PT

Ah but I don't agree.

You keep using the fact that hammers were once used as a justification to continue their use once PROVED to be no longer needed.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 20, 2006 - 12:00am PT

and climbers will do whatever they want only as long as land managers allow them to.

After climbing is outlawed guess who's gonna be the only ones still climbing.

Eeee hah! back to the good ol' days when climbers were mostly men and sheep ran for their lives.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Sep 20, 2006 - 12:02am PT

Of course we don't agree. But here's another analogy for you: If if has been PROVEN that a rope is no longer needed on a route because someone has free-soled it, does that mean that noone can justify using a rope on that route ever again? Heh.

WBraun

climber

Sep 20, 2006 - 12:43am PT

So Piton and Steve

So truth is relative. It is only a matter of opinion. What is true for you is true you and what is true for me is true for me.

Thus truth is subjective. My opinion is true by virtue of it's being my opinion.

I will pound piton in rock when needed!

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Sep 20, 2006 - 12:48am PT

I bow down to the mighty wisdom of Werner Braun. Brilliant wording, hope to meet you some day!

dmalloy

Trad climber

eastside

Sep 20, 2006 - 12:49am PT

"Thus truth is subjective. My opinion is true by virtue of it's being my opinion. "

Cripes, I think Werner just went all Chongo-Face-of-the-Observer on us.

Mimi

climber

Sep 20, 2006 - 01:03am PT

Werner, are you trying to outwit Wittgenstein again? Why do I get the feeling that you're chuckling at all of us? Please don't get mad at me but I feel compelled to express my truth and opinions on this. heh-heh

No, Humjob, this isn't fun. You are one pigheaded fool. You remind me so much of the WOS boys. Is there something in the water over there on the East side? You obviously haven't absorbed any of the counter arguments to your position as posted on this and other related threads. You're just beating your chest with your pinkies over your self-proclaimed right to be destructive.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Sep 20, 2006 - 01:29am PT

Whoa, there Mimi! Excuse me for having fun, I'll certainly never make that mistake again! Silly me, I even thought climbing was fun...I clearly AM a fool. I'll do my best to strive for gloom and unhappiness in the future. Thank you so much for bringing me to my senses with your harsh and degrading words!

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Sep 20, 2006 - 06:20am PT

Hummerchine,

You have stated a couple of different reasons for using a hammer/pitons on a route which has been done clean. I'll try to address those reasons separately, so we don't get confused. But before I do that, I will agree that sometimes the impact of pins is minimal, and the benefits to safety can sometimes be significant. So can be a judgement call as to whether a climber brings them, and/or uses them (if they are brought). Then it is "impact" vs. "safety" (or "avoiding retreating", or "convenience" if the clean gear is hard to place, or "expense" if there is some specialized gear to acquire which you do not have).

OK, now I'll try to understand the separate reasons in your original post:

---- (1)

"If a route was put up on pins/bolts/whatever that used a hammer, and then gets done and altered enough times that the rock now allows for someone to manage to do the non-fixed moves clean, that means that forever more every climber that ever does the route has to ignore how the first ascent party did the route and also do it clean???"

To answer your question directly: no. But you've stated it in such a way that it is an unrealistic and uninteresting question.

1.A. "every climber"
You explain this later:
"So as soon as someone is as talented and/or brave to manage to pull off a route's non-fixed moves clean, then noone else can climb it unless they have the same talent/risk tolerance?"

Agreed, some climbers might not want to take the same risks that others do. For example, if there is a clean placement that is C3 or something with a fairly high chance of failure, vs. using a piton that is A1, and if the piece fails the person if facing a serioius ledge fall, some people will want to place the pin (ideally to have a fixed pin there). Other climbers will be fine using the C3 placement. If a route is correctly rated and has an accurate topo, this sort of risk can be considered ahead of time, when choosing whether to try this climb, or to try another climb instead. The decision could be fairly easy - if there is a fair amount of C3 on the route, but your talent level is only good for C2, you should skip the route and try an easier one. Of course it may not be so clear; you might not know whether you can do C2 or C3. Or the topo may be old or not show the clean rating.
To make the question more realistic, replace "every climber" with "most climbers".

1.B. "that ever does the route"
You explain this:
"And what happens when things change? (rock breaks or changes, fixed piece pulls, etc.)."

Sure, maybe the clean placement deteriorates and a piton is required again. Although ironically, it can easily be the opposite (especially in sandstone) - repeated nailing can create flaring scars where there were once more usable clean placements. If the rock changes in this way, then we might be back in the case where the topo is not accurate. That's why people check for recent beta, of course.
In the case of a fixed piece disappearing, sometimes replacement is needed, and sometimes not. The "inaccurate topo" story applies again here. Normally, fixed gear on routes is maintained and the topo stays fairly accurate. But it happens. For example, last year on the Nose, I noticed that the fixed (pins) pendulum anchor on p4 was missing, and instead there was a fixed ratty cord going over right to some frayed heads. Yuck. I may go up there and restore that at some point if it hasn't been done already. Also, the old Harding bolts along Pancake Flake have been removed. They are not really needed, so I don't think those will be replaced.
To make the question more realistic, replace "that ever does the route" with "that does the route in its current condition". If people climb with minimal impact, and the fixed gear is properly maintained, the route should not change much.

1.C. "has to"

I think here you mean that (in Yosemite, say) there is no (enforced) law that prevents people from nailing. Well, actually in the 70s, some routes on Swan Slab were officially closed to climbing due to piton scarring. Serenity Crack may have been closed to nailing as well; I'm not sure. And for sandstone in particular, there are places like Canyonlands N.P.(and recently, Arches) where hammering pitons and adding new bolts is definitely illegal. So "has to" actually is correct in some places.
To make the question more realistic, replace "has to" with "should".

So, here's the question restated with my changes:

Most climbers that do the route in its current condition should ignore how the first ascent party did the route and also do it clean?

Now I can say yes (usually). Although there will be some occasional exceptions.

----- (2)

"It is just all so contrived, it's not like we're talking about some pristine crack that has never been hammered here. So what if a crack that has seen much prior hammering has a bit more, just because since the first ascent someone has managed to climb it without hammering?"

You could be right - maybe the damage is already done, and more hammering might not have a very significant further impact. It depends on the hardness of the rock, of course (granite vs. sandstone and variety of granite, sandstone, etc.). Fundamentally, it could be a nonobvious judgement call of "impact" vs. "safety" (or "avoiding retreating", etc.).

The question can be fairly easy to answer if the impact seems significant (soft rock), and if clean gear works as well or better than pitons. When there is a tradeoff, then the answer might not be easy.

----- (3)

"I climbed the Shield for my 40th birthday, nearly ten years ago. It had been climbed "clean" prior to my ascent. I have to put the word "clean" in parenthasis, since the "clean" ascent did use many fixed (non-clean) placements. Did I also do a "clean" ascent? NO. I proudly used whatever I felt necessary, including pitons. As had about a zillion parties before me, and about a zillion thereafter. Does the knowledge that there are some parties that have manaqed to climb the route "clean" detract from my ascent? Not the slightest bit in my mind. Obviously there are those out there that disagree, so be it. Sorry, but the climb ruled, we had a gas, one of the finest experiences of my life. I toast all who have had this fine experience!"

I agree tha the Shield is a good example of a climb which has been done clean with some fixed gear, and which is still often done with a little hammering. It is definitely one of those cases where there is a tradeoff in terms of increased difficulty/risk if you do a clean ascent (conditional on certain fixed gear). And it is a highly sought after route, so people are willing to tolerate some impact, so they can experience such a classic. For reference I did it back in '87, using Ron's "Dorn Direct" start, and we hammered a little. Also, it is fairly hard granite, so it can tolerate hammering better than softer granite or sandstone. I'm willing to trust your judgement on hammering only where you think it was needed. I wouldn't expect you to start hammering at random on it. In the case of the Shield, I would say the "most climbers" principle could be used. That is, if most people are hammering a little, you are at least following the consensus style.

So, while the Shield may be a reasonable exception to the principle of "once clean, always clean", there are many other routes where the principle is still good.

For example, on the Nose, I think virtually nobody takes a hammer and pins (unless they are on some special mission to maintain the fixed gear). And doing it clean does not increase the risk or difficulty by much if at all. The rock hardness is about the same as the Shield, so impact is similar (fairly low).

Moonlight Buttress (C1, in Zion) should be another example of a route that is almost always done clean and should not be nailed. The impact of nailing there is more significant since the rock is softer. It also sees a fair number of free ascents, and piton scars could change the free climbing, so that is another standard reason to avoid such impact.

I'm sure there are some aid routes where the "most climbers" principle is not (yet) usable because about half the ascents have some hammering and half do not. If there are routes like this, probably they will soon be done clean by most climbers, because most people want to minimize impact, and it will appear after several clean ascents that it is not all that risky. I suppose an example might be Crack in the Cosmic Egg (in Zion), where the first pitch has some mandatory 5.9 which can be protected by a piton or two. (If it was in granite, the pitons might be left fixed [I think fixed pins may tend to loosen rapidly or fall out in Zion in some cases?] or nuts might be safe enough). On this route, it may be the case that people who feel they cannot do the 5.9 without placing pins will just avoid that route and do something else. Especially if several people do that pitch without pitons.

So, after this lengthy post, I'll attempt a short conclusion. Keep the "once clean, always clean" principle, and try to use it whenever you can. There will be some exceptions, like the Shield (for many people). The principle is still useful. On climbs which see some clean and some nonclean ascents, it may be wise to bring a hammer, especially if there is a lot of fixed gear to maintain (more true on granite than sandstone, I think). But you should first develop your clean aiding skills on easier routes, and not attempt to learn to hammer on a route that is often done clean. In other words, there will be judgement calls to make; be sure you have the experience to make good choices.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 20, 2006 - 06:59am PT

Hummer,
that bit about the rope just underscores how thick climbers can be. Don't you understand the difference between style and ethics?

If someone does a route without a rope so what? How does that have a direct bearing on anyone else?

But if someone takes a hammer to a route it can affect everyone to follow.

It boggles my mind that climbers are so dense that they simply cannot grasp this distinction.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 20, 2006 - 01:29pm PT

"So truth is relative. It is only a matter of opinion. What is true for you is true you and what is true for me is true for me. Thus truth is subjective. My opinion is true by virtue of it's being my opinion."

Is that really a true statement, or only true for you?

It seemed like you were making a statement about the way that TRUTH works, but on your model, you are precluded from actually doing that. So, what WERE you actually saying?

On your model, what is the distinction between truth and opinion? Can anybody be mistaken about anything?

The rest of the discussion continues to be good, clean fun.

TradIsGood

Fun-loving climber

the Gunks end of the country

Sep 20, 2006 - 01:47pm PT

You can't translate this statement into Japanese and preserve its meaning.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 20, 2006 - 01:53pm PT

Ahhh, yes, self reference is so fun.

Of course, the problem noted above is not one of self reference.

the Fet

climber

A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge

Sep 20, 2006 - 02:27pm PT

If someone nails an alternate placement that doesn't go clean so what (e.g. CT)? How does that have a direct bearing on anyone else?

If someone FAs a slab mainly with hooks and some bolts and rivets boldly spaced so what (WoS)? How does that have a direct bearing on anyone else?

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Sep 20, 2006 - 05:27pm PT

Clint:

Best I can tell, I agree with just about everything you said...including my grammatical corrections. It appears that somehow I came off as a piton-loving destroyer of rock, which is simply not true. I've been an avid rock climber for nearly 30 years, really have not placed that many pitons in my life. Have climbed El Cap 9 times, I think I/we brought pins on four of those ascents. Of the routes where I/we brought pins, I/we used a vast majority of clean placements. I don't even like pitons. Just wanted to clear that up for those who may have misunderstood me, I do not deny that I am not the best writer in the world. The main issue throughout this discussion that I take offense to is the public trashing of someone for placing a pin on a route that has ever been done clean. I still feel that just because someone finally manages to pull of a clean ascent of a route, that does not mean that now everyone has to follow in their footsteps. You seem to agree with this, I like your statement:

"That is, if most people are hammering a little, you are at least following the consensus style."

Clearly by the posts I've seen there are those that violently feel that once a route is done clean, then noone should ever use a hammered placement on that route ever again. And that is their opinion which I repect, minus the verbal shredding some seem necessary to inflict. But hey, I guess if anyone wins this agruement it is the consensus!

Nice post, btw...well thought out and worded.

TradIsGood

Fun-loving climber

the Gunks end of the country

Sep 20, 2006 - 05:50pm PT

Actually, madbolter1, it is very much related.

"My opinion is true because it is my opinion", refers to self - the author self. So the statement's truth is context-sensitive.

For example, the statement can be false if the context is you, and true if the context is translated to Werner. Analogously,
my example is true in the original language, but meaningless when translated into another language.

So it is mildly related to the OP. Since it is a question of "ethics" - quoted intentionally - the truth is as indiscernible, since there is no community agreement, and since each climbing event occurs in a different context.

BoKu

Trad climber

Douglas Flat, CA

Sep 20, 2006 - 06:45pm PT

> So truth is relative.

Word. Truth is relative, and quality is absolute. The awkward inversion of these principles is what places western thought upon such an unstable foundation. Aristotle and his corrupt cronies oughta been taken out and shot.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 20, 2006 - 07:12pm PT

When you go to Steve's House Of Smoke you should really try the ribs. Normally I don't eat ribs, but these are really delicious.
They have this homemade hickory sauce and the glaze is just a little crispy.

The chicken and steaks are good, but go for the ribs.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 20, 2006 - 07:19pm PT

now thats what i'm talking about!

WBraun

climber

Sep 20, 2006 - 07:21pm PT

Hehehe

No, that was actually Protagoras, and Mimi knows me to well. Yes, it is a defective logic! I wanted to see what people saw and their reactions to this foolish logic.

Truth is absolute, and not subjective. The relative truth depends on the Absolute Truth, summun bonum. This material world is relative truth.

The Absolute Truth is true for everyone.

TradIsGood

Fun-loving climber

the Gunks end of the country

Sep 20, 2006 - 07:26pm PT

Moving forward a couple millenia...

Kurt Gödel proved fundamental results about axiomatic systems showing in any axiomatic mathematical system there are propositions that cannot be proved or disproved within the axioms of the system.

Math is fundamental!

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 20, 2006 - 07:48pm PT

Trad, there appear to be a number of confusions in your last post about truth. I'll respond one by one:

1) You say, "'My opinion is true because it is my opinion,' refers to self - the author self. So the statement's truth is context-sensitive."

Are you hereby saying that ANY opinion Werner has is true BECAUSE he is the one happening to have it?

That would be very strange indeed, since people have all sorts of opinions (the Earth is flat, for example) that are false. So, if it is the case that you think this way, then please clarify. I will proceed thinking not, however.

You seem to be thinking that what Werner means is something like, "My opinion is in fact my opinion because it is my opinion." But that claim is saying nothing about TRUTH or CONTENT (hence, Werner's following claims don't actually follow from it). Instead, this is merely a (almost?) tautological claim that one can't be mistaken about the fact of one's having or not having a particular opinion.

There are problems with this view as well (as the supposed distinction between Ketchup and Catsup demonstrates). Even so, this model does not make TRUTH subjective, nor does it indicate anything self-referential in Werner's claim. Even on this model, the reference of Werner's claim is to HIMself, as you note, not to the claim ITself. The CLAIM is not SELF-referential just because it has a reference to the speaker in it.

So, the "SELF-reference" in Werner's claim is only that his claim (opinion) mentions HIS own opinion. But there is no proper inference from that fact to the claim that his OPINION is TRUE just because it is, in fact, his opinion. The predicate "is true" must refer, like any other predicate. The question is: to what does a truth-relativist's truth predicate refer? If you say, "Why, to their opinion, of course (like I said, it's self-referential)," then you have merely conflated opinion with truth. You can bite that bullet, if you like, but the implications are more sweeping and unsavory than ANY philosopher is willing to endure.

No, instead, you are likely to acknowledge that the truth predicate refers to some relation between claims (opinions, etc.) and some state of affairs "in the world" (which implies at least intersubjectivity, if not objectivity).

This is to say that "is true" means that whatever Werner's claim (opinion, etc.) is ABOUT must correlate with some state of affairs in the world. Now, if the opinion is ABOUT (content) some state of affairs about Werner (such as, that he in fact HAS such an opinion), there is still a fact of the matter about whether or not there is such a state of affairs about Werner (the state of affairs of whether or not he in fact has such an opinion). (Surely you are not denying that there are any FACTS, states of affairs, etc.)

Thus, I see no way in which Werner's CLAIM is self-referential such that the function of the truth predicate itself is affected.

2) You say, "For example, the statement can be false if the context is you, and true if the context is translated to Werner. Analogously, my example is true in the original language, but meaningless when translated into another language."

Werner's statement "My opinion is true because it is my opinion," is incorrect (read just as it reads) regardless of context. It is false in my context because I don't even HAVE the opinion. But it is also false in Werner's context because, although he DOES have the opinion, the CONTENT of his opinion nevertheless does not correlate with the facts of the world.

"Is true" is not satisfied as a predicate just because one HAS an opinion. If I have the opinion that 1 + 1 = 3, I might say, "My opinion (that 1 + 1 = 3) is true because it is my opinion." But my adding the truth predicate "is true" to my claim doesn't have some magical power to MAKE the content of that opinion true (even for me). You appear to be conflating the fact of HAVING an opinion with the CONTENT of that opinion. It is NOT the case (for anybody) that 1 + 1 = 3, regardless of what one's opinion (or even claim about one's opinions) might be.

Your example is a different case from Werner's claim, however. Your example is genuinely self-referential insofar as it CONTAINS a reference to ITSELF (rather than to you). (The fact that you utter a claim about yourself doesn't make the claim "self" referential.) "Self reference" occurs only when a claim references ITSELF, regardless of who utters it. Your example does have this property, while Werner's does not.

Furthermore, your example claim ["You can't translate this statement into Japanese and preserve its meaning"] is not "meaningless" in any other language than English, as you say. The statement, even in another language, is a claim ABOUT propositional content, which implies that it must have some, even in another language, while a "meaningless" statement has (by definition) no propositional content. Moreover, in fact, the statement can be translated into any other language than Japanese and retain its entire original propositional content. Even in Japanese the statement would not be meaningless! It would instead simply mean something different from what it meant in English. We can even know what propositional content the statement IN JAPANESE would have (although we cast that content in English): "You can't translate the statement, '''You can't translaste this statement into Japanese and preserve its meaning''' into Japanese and preserve its meaning" (where what appears between the ''' quotation marks actually appears in English in the Japanese sentence). And so on.

You appear to be conflating sentences and propositions, which, since Alonzo Church, is a mistake philosophers don't tend to make. It is true that your original SENTENCE doesn't exist in its Japanese translation (since it was an English sentence). However, that fact doesn't imply that the propositional content of that sentence cannot be conveyed in Japanese (as noted above).

The self-reference of the sentence is that the SENTENCE refers to itself (which is what makes it appear to be paradoxical). The sentence does NOT refer to its propositional content (if it did, then it would no longer be SELF referential). But then it would also not be paradoxical; it would merely be trivially false: "This propositional content cannot be conveyed by translation." But clearly you can MEAN that VERY thing in ANY language! So, you can convey that MEANING in any language and between languages. Thus, the paradox suggested by your example statement evaporates as quickly as you realize the conflation between sentences and propositions.

3) You say, "So it is mildly related to the OP. Since it is a question of 'ethics' - quoted intentionally - the truth is as indiscernible, since there is no community agreement, and since each climbing event occurs in a different context."

And here IS where the rubber meets the road. Just because agreement is lacking in a community does not imply that the "truth (of whatever subject) is indiscernible." It MIGHT be the case the the truth of the matter is indiscernible, as you suggest. However, even if THAT were the case, that would not imply that there IS no truth of the matter (which is what Werner opines). If you are going to suggest such a hard-core anti-realism about truth in the context of climbing ethics, then you will have to argue for that. I agree that the realism/anti-realism distinction can be argued context-by-context, and I am sympathetic to anti-realism in a few contexts (such as humor, for example). However, your (in effect) claim that climbing ethics is an anti-realistic context does not follow from your claim about there not happening to be any agreement in the community. That would be akin to the invalid argument cultural relativists try to float: "There is no agreement about ethics across cultures; therefore there are no objective ethical facts." Invalid, and easy to demonstrate as incorrect.

There may be no agreement about climbing ethics. But it does not follow from that fact (if it is a fact) that any facts about climbing ethics are indiscernible OR that there ARE no objective climbing ethical facts. Even if you could prove (which would not be trivial), that particular claims about climbing ethics are akin to something like Goldbach's Conjecture, you would still have to ARGUE from there to sustain an anti-realistic assertion about the context of climbing ethics.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 20, 2006 - 07:52pm PT

Eeek! "Math is fundamental?"

Mathematics falls prey to Gödel just as does any other axiomatic system.

But, again, this says nothing about the function of the truth predicate, about absolutism/relativism, or about climbing ethics.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 20, 2006 - 07:53pm PT

Werner, I feel better now. Whew, you had me worried there for awhile.

Mimi

climber

Sep 22, 2006 - 12:09am PT

Hey Ron, you forgot to mention the slaw.

When there are so many tasty and memorable items on the menu, why is it that the WOS guys always insist on ordering the same thing; a burnt weenie sandwich served cold, dry, and face down and NO relish? Definitely NO relish.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 22, 2006 - 01:28am PT

Pot shots and clever quips do not demonstrate, or even indicate, actual thought. Mimi, the AI exists right now to replace you.

What am I saying? "You?" The personal pronoun suggests that at the very least Mimisoft could pass the Turing Test, which is doubtful.

BTW, is there any mathematical system that is not axiomatic?

Finally, Mimisoft is dead wrong. I do like relish. But it has gotta be dill. The sweet is for wussies. I don't know what Mark likes, though, so it's best to not lump us together as the "WOS guys" when it comes to important things like matters of taste. Come to think of it, I think he likes sweet. (gag)

WBraun

climber

Sep 22, 2006 - 01:32am PT

So according to the axiomatic truth, things equal to one another are equal to each other?

Mimi

climber

Sep 22, 2006 - 01:48am PT

One is the loneliest number there can ever beeeeeeeee........

Two can be as sad as one............it's the loneliest number since the number one...........

The Turing Test?! YOU guys really are aliens! If you're bonafide Earthlings, name the philosopher who wrote the above words.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 22, 2006 - 01:52am PT

I don' like to rap off an anchor less it has tu rings.

WBraun

climber

Sep 22, 2006 - 02:01am PT

One is not lonely

It's sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah, the most, the supermost reservoir of all pleasure ........

-:)

Teth

climber

Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Sep 22, 2006 - 10:19am PT

It is true that one’s opinion is one’s opinion (unless one is lying), but this has no barring on the truth or falsehood of the content of the opinion.

Madbolter1, I fail to see why you needed a page to state this, and you where doing so well at keeping it short and snippy. Maybe I just lack an interest in philosophy and just can’t appreciate what a good juicy topic it is?

As for math... no two things are equal to each other if you examen them closely enough, so math is only an approximation when applied outside of the hypothetical. But “close enough” is close enough for me. I am a realist.

Teth

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 22, 2006 - 11:26am PT

Teth, there's just no denying that I am a philosopher through and through, and careful philosophers just love to say in ten words what can be said in one word or less by others.

Of course, most people lead deeply confused, non-introspective, unexamined lives. Sometimes thinking carefully reveals simple confusions, and sometimes the confusions are more subtle. Since we are ALL confused about different things at different times, it pays us all to be careful with each other and to help each other. Your one-liner, while true, is in effect just an assertion; and there were multiple confusions in the earlier post to which I responded. I take such topics seriously, so maybe I respond with too much gravity. But, on the other hand, I'm bucking a "sound bite" society.

Whatever you thought of John Kerry (and I am certainly not endorsing him in what follows), he did have the most sophisticated view on abortion that I have heard from a politician. He said in one of the debates (my paraphrase), "Yes, I am a Catholic, so I think that abortion is always wrong. However, I live in a free society, and I don't have the right to impose my religiously-based moral views on those who have other religious beliefs. So, as a Catholic I am opposed to abortion. As an American, I think the laws should reflect the broad consensus."

The media picked this up and started treating it as yet another example of Kerry "waffling." I think he did "waffle" on some things, but not on this! Quips and bites were taken from his response and trotted out on the evening news, and articles were written, saying: "Kerry can't make up his mind, and he can't have it both ways." Kerry was close to winning (look at the popular vote). But Kerry's campaign died on the alter erected to sound bites and one-liners. And now we have (ack) Bush, arguably the most thoughtLESS president ever. Whatever else you think about Kerry, he did have a thoughtful and reasonable (and I think correct) view about abortion. People didn't "get it," though, because our society simply can't cope with anything presented in more than a (short) sentence.

Kerry might not have won anyway, and he might have been (probably would have been) a bad president. My point is that he lost in part because our society can't fathom anything but superficial thinking and modes of expression.

I really try to be careful in discussions I think matter, so if I err on the side of saying a bit more than is the bare minimum needed to convince the most thoughtful, please have charity toward me.

I'll spare you my pontifications about mathematics, since mathematics doesn't really matter, being only about abstract objects and all. ;-)

***
Mimisoft, Mimisoft.... the question is confusing. Philosopher, huh? That makes it hard. Never thought of him (Nilsson) that way, although I guess even Mimisoft could be cast as a "philosopher" if you set the bar low enough and are willing to include bad AI quips as evidence of "philosophical thought." I must admit, though, that some of what professional philosophers do is indistinguishable from bad AI. Maybe Mimisoft was programmed to emulate (with limited success) bad philosophers.

And, I haven't yet proved that I'm an Earthling. Actually, I'd prefer not to be. But I DO like relish! Some Earthlings make some darn good relish.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 22, 2006 - 11:36am PT

madbolter, you are the hands down champion of the uneeded pointless ramble. your posts so effectivly exceed my attention span.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 22, 2006 - 12:44pm PT

cool

Teth

climber

Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Sep 22, 2006 - 01:51pm PT

Madbolter1, just ribbing you a bit on your post length, as it is such a trade mark for you. You make a good point about attention span in today’s society. I am a bit of an exception, as I did not learn to read until I was 14 (dyslexia or something similar), so in order to get through school I really had to pay attention in class as I could not study. I still have trouble with the reading though (100% comprehension according to the many reading tests I have taken, but slow as molasses) so my long attention span does not always translate to reading. (I did not manage to get past the third chapter in a text book until my second year of College.) I always read through your climbing posts, but this philosophy stuff reads too much like a text book and my eyes start to blur....

What was this thread originally about? Oh yeah, the question of whether or not to bring a hammer on a climb. I think I had asked a question about hooking off into the unknown on an FA if you did not have a hammer and drill, back in the House of Cards thread, but I think my post killed the discussion.

Teth

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 22, 2006 - 03:19pm PT

Thanks, Teth. I know the philosophy is a bit dense. Sorry for that. Don't want to blur any eyes... there are other substances that do a better job of that and bring more pleasure in the process. Of course, philosophy is my drug of choice. (pathetic)

OT, I do have to wonder about the hard line of not even bringing a hammer along. I remember one day seeing a guy take a fabulous whipper out of the triple cracks pitch of the Shield. Apparently, one ratty old RURP sling ripped, and all the ones below capitulated as well. He had to go back up and replace all those RURPS with cabled ones--using a hammer, of course.

Most "clean" climbs rely upon hammer-placed fixed gear. I just don't see bringing the ascent to a halt and retreating if you can't come up with some way to replace the blown placement with something clean. It makes more sense to me to replace (with a hammer) the blown placement and thereby restore the climb to its "clean" status for other parties.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 22, 2006 - 03:36pm PT

OMG!

Is this still going on?
And now we have Werner quoting axiomatic truths of the Swami Sik-viagra.
That's it!
I'm gonna have to start another thread, mallet-heads vs nutz.

Ben Rumsen

Social climber

No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )

Sep 22, 2006 - 03:37pm PT

" What was this thread originally about? Oh yeah, the question of whether or not to bring a hammer on a climb " -

Always bring a hammer on aid climbs, clean or not. A hammer and a cleaning tool may be the only way to remove nuts once they are weighted.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 22, 2006 - 03:39pm PT

we've been over that before. a 'clean' climb isn't really a clean climb when you have to rely on hammered fixed gear. IMO, its a nailing line that just so happens to be fixed when you happen to be on it.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 22, 2006 - 04:11pm PT

When I first got to town in the mid-80's I was out roped soloing as usual but this time ran into a couple of local young hotshots working on something relatviely unimaginable. We pitched some banter back and forth and then they asked, "have you met xxxx yet?". I said no, and they said, "if he asks you to go climbing with him it's ok, but when you show up just tell him you forgot your rack. Under no circumstances let him lead on your rack as he thinks stoppers and hexes are just new age bashies and he hammers every one he places until its fixed."

I present this in the spirit of creative compromises - not...

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 22, 2006 - 06:31pm PT

Euroford writes: "a 'clean' climb isn't really a clean climb when you have to rely on hammered fixed gear." If that really is the end of the matter, then must we conclude that SG's thread-starting rant is baseless? Say it isn't so!

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Sep 22, 2006 - 07:01pm PT

Ben wrote:

> Always bring a hammer on aid climbs, clean or not. A hammer and a cleaning tool may be the only way to remove nuts once they are weighted.

You can bring a small hammer for this purpose. We brought a hammer for removing nuts the first time I did the Nose (1985), but not on later trips up it. There are also nut tools which have a hammer head on one end, but then what do you hammer on? A second nut tool? Personally, I find using a #4 Friend or other large cam is heavy enough to use to tap on the nut tool, when using it to tap under a nut that I can't rip out by hand.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Sep 22, 2006 - 07:06pm PT

Euroford wrote:

> we've been over that before. a 'clean' climb isn't really a clean climb when you have to rely on hammered fixed gear. IMO, its a nailing line that just so happens to be fixed when you happen to be on it.

This is semantics to some extent - you can call it whatever you want to. Your method of ascent is clean, i.e. you are not doing any hammering during it. It is rare for an aid climb to have no fixed gear whatsoever (including bolts at belays). So your use of "clean" here is nonstandard. Maybe "clean with no fixed gear" is a way to describe those rare aid walls.

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Sep 22, 2006 - 07:18pm PT

"then must we conclude that SG's thread-starting rant is baseless?"

I thought we had determined this already, as well as that he is just being a bitter, used-to-be badass about the fact that someone is busting out these climbs in hours, rather than the days, to weeks it takes everyone else.

If it were really about the "ethic", at all, it would have started as such. If there had been any research done about Ammon or the topic, or even just some reading to become acquainted with the surroundings here, which doesn't seem to be a strong suit when judging by other published works, the topic would never have come about, as the attack on Ammon was so 180 degrees from reality, and the "ethics" "debate" would have been seen for the reality that it will never be settled to any one side or another so to continue on with all the rhetoric and chest beating is pointless. However, this started as a bitter, baseless assault on someone with skills that are leaps beyond the rest of us, all pitifully disguised as some attempt to debate clean climbing. Sad.

The incredibly ironic thing is that when it comes down to it, everyone really feels the same in that they try to do the route as cleanly as possible, with as little impact as possible and in the best style they can. There are, of course, the exceptions to the rule, as always, but this is the general mentality of most. Now if only everyone had exactly the same skill level... Oh, but I guess there's supposed to be at least two sets of skill levels, eh? "Regular" and "Holier Than Thou", perhaps?

Off White

climber

Tenino, WA

Sep 22, 2006 - 11:05pm PT

Actually Nef, all that was determined is that we line up behind our friends and base our opinions upon the question of who we like. I don't like the tone of your blatantly aggressive post.

TradIsGood

Hammer wielding climber

the Gunks end of the country

Sep 22, 2006 - 11:07pm PT

If I had a hammer, ...

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Sep 23, 2006 - 02:19am PT

And away we go. Please listen up Nef. My routes sit as testimony to my committment, ability, and style; both aid and free climbing. The game of clean aid climbing has seen some outstanding accomplishments but still no C4+ or C5.

Before being chased to the ground by 110-degree August heat while putting up the Jolly Roger, I did the first ever C4 pitch on an El Cap route. Charles had become severely dehydrated and we were definitely going down. I had time to put together a real thriller complete with tiny RPs, crack-em-ups, hooks, and Leeper camhooks. All with the Mammoth Terraces below. When the topo hit circulation, I noticed that my C4 pitch rating had become Class 4. That amazing pitch could still be there proudly to challenge supermen like you except that a party came along and began to pound a little and so with the next party.......

To quote John Long concerning The Giraffe at Gran Trono, "You bust your ass to put up a really good route and the first party that comes along f*#ks it up."

The beauty of the rock and the challenge left unblemished for the future are reasons enough to respect other climbers and yourself and climb clean as can be. Every placement, every time. Try first, use force as a last resort and sparingly. If some piece of garbage pulls out, do your best with what's left. Until you commit to truly do your best, it is all hairsplitting and sidewinding around the central issue. Are you properly prepared to meet the risks and challenge facing you without diminishing the experience of the next party? The presence or absence of one sort of fixed gear or another or a history of hammer use contributing to the condition of the cracks as you encounter them does not change your basic ethical responsibility. "Do what you want, do what you will, just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill." Frank Zappa.

If you feel that you are so very modern and have transcended the need to consider the consequences of impact and the use of force,(in the name of speed or not) just admit that you either are unclear about your priorities or unwilling to summon the necessary resources to meet your own goals. If you came across my C4 pitch, what would you do? It depends entirely on your level of preparation and competance at the time. It also depends on pride and how badly you want up. To pound is to alter. To alter is to diminish. To diminish thoughtlessly in the absence of clear purpose is tragic and needless behavior.

I did The Shield back in 1978 and used very few hammered placements on my leads. On wired hexes, stoppers and RPs, I lead the opening arch with only one pin. Above, the cracks were a clean knife stroke with nothing to hit below. The perfect place to be bold and have some fun with the tiny wires. Piton use clears off the very irregularities that micronutting requires and can diminish the clean climbing potential and challenge. Until you master testing technique and realize how little it takes to hold your weight, this level of impact doesn't have much meaning. To be clear here, I am not refering to so called "agressive" bounce testing which is not appropriate for true bodyweight placements. Everytime a hammer is used, think first. The peg board mindset has lead to so much damage and piton scarring that we all need to be aware of collapsing into that dark little hole by failing to consider and explore the alternatives first. Hand placed pins and cam hooks work exceptionally well and do nothing but up the adventure factor. Learn to trust your judgement and technique and step into the bodyweight game. Before heading up on The Jolly Roger, John Yablonski once gave me what he thought to be sensible advice by saying, "Don't stand on anything shitty way out, man." What is the point, I asked.

Don't be so sure that the past holds nothing of value for you.

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Sep 23, 2006 - 04:15am PT

Off White - Exactly. You're just agreeing with my point. Thanks. Your first statement contradicts your latter as you did, exactly, agree with my post. All of this crap is about people "lining up behind their friends".

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Sep 23, 2006 - 04:24am PT

Steve -- "To pound is to alter. To alter is to diminish. To diminish thoughtlessly in the absence of clear purpose is tragic and needless behavior."

Each route on El Cap starts by erring from this "ethic" (read style, as ethics are based on core beliefs and don't change to suit the circumstance and "need") and defiling the rock. All for someone's personal gain. This is what happens everytime someone goes up a route.

My whole point, is that most people pracice, within their abilities, exactly the care and concern that you are talking about. They do the best they can with the least amount of effect to the rock/environment. To say you or anyone else has any more right to do so is simply arrogant and what people view as an elitist attitude. Sure, if an C3 climber is nailing the f*#k out of an A4 route simply to beat it into submission to say that he "made it to the top, well, anyone will have a problme with that. But when you're essentially saying that only a handfull of climbers can climb a handfull of routes on El Cap, people are going to bitch. Especially when they're not doing anything differently then those before them, including the FA.

I think your routes and achievements are bitchin', Steve. Seriously. Nice lines, bold ascents and balls to do them. But seriosuly, you altered as much, if not more than plenty of the people admiring your work by repeating your routes. You did this for you, not for anyone else, certainly not for El Cap or to protect her. For your personal goal. They're simply doing the same and doing it in the best style they can and most, if for nothing else than fear, are doing it within reasonable limts and not beating the route into submission.

Regardless, it's not your "ethic" or the ensuing rants that are being challenged or that people have an issue with, it's the way it was gone about. Again, if that was you had to say, that's what you would have said, rather than trying to single out probably the most talented aid climber here for a single placement on a route. In the end, that only hurt your point rather than helped to prove it. And, again, to follow this ethic to it's extreme, routes like Dihedral Wall, The Nose, Zodiac, etc... They're off limits to anyone not capable of freeing them with the minimal amounts of gear and palcements that hae gone before.... Most people who are still activley climbing and have yet to reach their peaks and limits aren't going to buy into this.

And, not really trying to sound aggressive or anything, but this is a sounding board for all and I call it the way I see it and share my opinion jsut as the way this thread started. Fact is, I'd gladly share a rope and good times with pretty much anyone here and a beer and laughs afterwards. I'll be in the ditch 6:30 AM tomorrow if anyone wants to partake.

Cheers!

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 24, 2006 - 01:50pm PT

SG writes: "My routes sit as testimony to my committment, ability, and style; both aid and free climbing."

DUDE! You're just too sexy for yourself!

SG writes: "The beauty of the rock and the challenge left unblemished for the future are reasons enough to respect other climbers and yourself and climb clean as can be."

Uhhh... no. What you mean to say is this: "The beauty of my awesomeness and my overarching desire that future parties will experience it unblemished, so that with each placement they will be thinking, 'God! Steve's routes really do sit as testimony to his awesomeness!' is what 'respecting other climbers' is all about."

Perhaps, you might actually learn something from the Bird, who told me, "I don't know nor care what's up on the Sea now. Whatever it is, it isn't the route I climbed, and I don't give a damn about it now."

See, Steve, when you're truly great rather than just a wannabe, you actually manage to transcend setting yourself up as an exemplar of how things should be done. When you're truly great, people WANT to emulate you without you having to constantly remind them of how pitiful they are compared to you.

SG writes: "Are you properly prepared to meet the risks and challenge facing you without diminishing the experience of the next party?"

Yup, Sergeant! All present and accounted for! With my hammer and drill in hand I'm FULLY prepared to CREATE rather than diminish an experience for the next party that they could not have had without somebody like me being willing to 'meet the risks and challenge' to put up a route that COULD NOT possibly go clean and never would have nor will. Oooo RAH!

Oh, but I forget. Always I forget. ONLY the follow-the-cracks, climb-by-the-numbers routes put up by the likes of ego-heaving, chest-beating, tree-pissing, chicken-bolting, libelous blow-hards who have grandmas that can outclimb them are really worthy of the respect of future parties. Hammering, drilling, piton-placing riff raff should really spare future generations by employing one last long-dong placement... driven through their skulls, spiking them to the ground once and for all. Ooooooooo RAH!

(Oops. I guess that last paragraph will prolly preclude me from having a friendly beer with you any time soon.)

Why don't you get off your high horse and come clean (ha ha ha, that was a good one; I tickle myself) with the less savory facts of some of your own ethical failings? You've never had any??? Well, then get up there and do WoS clean. For someone as awesome as yourself, you should be able to just flash the thing in a day or two. Let us know how your clean attempt turns out, or if you end up "diminishing the experience" for future parties.

What's that you say? Ehh? "WoS is a trash route not worthy of your time?" Is that what I heard?

How convenient for you. One of the routes that could actually TEST your inane, elitist, ego-pumping theory, so OF COURSE it's trash.

Dang! You're JUST too sexy for yourself!

elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Sep 24, 2006 - 02:13pm PT

You had camhooks on the FA of Jolly Roger?
More than a decade before the rest of us?
What little trinkets do you have now that the rest of us won't see until 2016?

Secret weapons are uber-cool.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 24, 2006 - 02:47pm PT

Cam hooks have been around for a quarter century.

Wish you guys could understand the difference between ethics and style. When you do something that affects others then it is a question of ethics, but style affects nobody but the actor.

I don't give a rat's azz if somebody does those routes free or not, but when you beat on something you change it and saying "but so and so did it first" doesn't justify YOUR continuing the degradation.
Its not elitism to suggest that once a route goes clean people shouldn't beat on it any more. Its merely good manners.

And for chrisakes get over the issue of one placement on one climb

elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Sep 24, 2006 - 02:54pm PT

I find that a little surprising.
I am a total gear fiend, and I never saw or heard of them before the mid 90's. And I was in the ditch at the time, so it isn't like I was in some backwater burg.

Mimi

climber

Sep 24, 2006 - 03:24pm PT

WOS chaps: Questions still hang in the air. Do you consider yourselves as great or visionary wall climbers with respect to WOS and WOC; your two contributions to El Cap history?

What is it about these climbs, and the style in which they were done, that you would recommend to others?

Your accounts of WOS never mention any feature or otherwise redeeming or pleasurable aspect to what seems like an otherwise hellish and confusing experience. When you sat on the ground with your half-ton of gear, gazing upward, what were your goals with respect to the well established history and precedent upon that grand stage?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 24, 2006 - 03:41pm PT

Horse's mouth, Elcapfool, Ed Leeper showed them to me in his workshop.

elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Sep 24, 2006 - 04:39pm PT

Of course I believe you, I just wish they had made it to market sooner, as I had great fun with them when they did.
They were my first choice for a placement. So much so that a regular lived on the ends of both daisies. I worked a few miracles with them where absolutely nothing (maybe a #8 copperhead?) would have worked.

Mimi, your post reminds me of Churchill's "never surrender" speech. Keep the faith!

Mimi

climber

Sep 24, 2006 - 04:49pm PT

We shall defend our crag whatever the cost may be.

Like Ron wrote: There's plenty of ammo left, keep on blazing!

The regulars and conscripts doing the deli hang have already circled the overturned tables in an attempt to thwart the incoming onslaught. Their only thought being: When will the cavalry arrive with the much needed burnt weenie sandwiches? They can't hold out much longer on Old E and bullshat alone.

Do you think Steve's House of Smoke delivers?

elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Sep 24, 2006 - 04:54pm PT

We will fight them in the talus, in the meadow, and on the internet.

And yes, I am BLASTING Iron Maiden's Aces High as I write this.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 24, 2006 - 05:08pm PT

Never have so many owed so much rock to so few.

Mimi

climber

Sep 24, 2006 - 07:29pm PT

Dear Bwana-Dick,

In contrast to Bridwell, whose boldness and accomplishments are well known, and who had actually climbed a Grade VI, you guys show up with no experience to speak of, at the base of a route that is generally low angle, hiding nothing from the eye with no less than:

200 liters (53 US gallons) water
250 lbs food
180 biners
210 pitons
500 copperheads

An estimated total of 1,070 lbs. To quote Mark, "The weight was ominous...To our dismay, we couldn't stuff it into our SEVEN 130-lb haul bags." Please explain.

Can it really be true that your sole preparation before taking on a NEW ROUTE on El Cap, consisted of your unparalleled TEN-DAY (yes, 10) ring-of-fire solo ascent of the South Face of the Washington Column? That's 10 pitches folks. Please explain.

Can any wall climber in ST land wrap their brain around that? LOL! The only thing I find more strange, is that your partner was even less prepared than your sorry ass.

Let's keep it simple, and focused for a change on facts.

BPorter

Big Wall climber

Quartz Hill, Ca

Sep 24, 2006 - 07:55pm PT

Hey Ron,

I fell asleep for a couple days and when I woke up I found myself back on this thread. Anyways, you wrote something a ways back...

"I don't give a rat's azz if somebody does those routes free or not, but when you beat on something you change it and saying "but so and so did it first" doesn't justify YOUR continuing the degradation.
Its not elitism to suggest that once a route goes clean people shouldn't beat on it any more. Its merely good manners."

I have a penchant for getting an attitude with those I perceive as being elitists. But, elitist or not, you are right on the money with this comment and I completely agree.

Cheers

Cracko

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 24, 2006 - 08:24pm PT

If I'm an elitist its a pretty large elite,...

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 25, 2006 - 02:09am PT

There are apparently more glitches in Mimisoft. It must have run out of memory because it keeps asking questions that have been answered repeatedly. Turing Test fail alert!

Then it starts babbling about some "Dick" person or other. Very strange. I swear the program is overwriting code segment memory.

There is some reference to a solo ascent of Washington Column prior to WoS, which might refer to me, given the context, but I can't be sure. If the reference is to me, though, this would be yet more evidence of glitches in Mimisoft. Bad AI for sure. If I was anywhere near the server that hosts Mimisoft, I would expect to see smoke curling from from its innards. Ten days?

When I soloed WC, I spent two days on it, which was actually the typical time spent by a team of two in those days. And, of course, that was way before active cams, TCUs, etc. So, who knows what random sparks and shorts are taking place inside of that poor server? Prolly best to shut it down before it starts a fire. I do hope that Mimisoft can be salvaged, of course, and restarted on a better machine.

Oh, and BTW, if my ass is so sorry (and Mark's even more sorry than mine), then why has WoS blown so many supposedly good climbers out of the saddle? Still waiting for a second ascent.

Perhaps SG can load Mimisoft up on his Palm Pilot (which ought to have more memory than Mimisoft current has at its disposal, given what I've observed so far), and then he can have company as he attempts the first clean ascent of WoS. He can prolly program Mimisoft to coo comforting words as he takes yet another 50+ foot whipper down the slab: "Yes, Steve, that was your left arm you left back up there on that knob. But it's ok. Don't worry. I'm here for you, and, good news: now you are lighter, so the hooks might hold you better. Oh, and by the way, You Are Awesome, Steve!"

ChrisW

Trad climber

boulder, co

Sep 25, 2006 - 03:13am PT

gym climbing is safer. Thanks for the post Ammon.

EDIT...I did not read the whole post.

Maţţ

Big Wall climber

Kiev

Sep 25, 2006 - 02:26pm PT

"you guys show up with no experience to speak of, at the base of a route that is generally low angle"

What route was this? Can you give some background about it?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 25, 2006 - 03:33pm PT

OMG here we go.

JimmyRay

climber

Texas

Sep 25, 2006 - 04:32pm PT

I’m a climber from Dallas with 9 El Cap routes under the belt. That’s my experience, no more… no less. As the Valley is beyond weekend warrior distance for me, my reality is that if I fail to make my annual objective, then I tend to get the whole subsequent year to dwell on it. As a result, I tend to be very motivated, and treat my big walls very business-like (within the context of having a blast mind you), both in terms of objective selection & logistical preparedness. Thus my feedback to the original statements in this thread is based on such a user dynamic, one that is probably not to uncommon out there? Regardless, it speaks to some of the arguments articulated within.

Shield
In May 1998, the rivets that link the second & third cracks on the Shield’s Triple Cracks pitch were missing in action? To this day, I wonder what the story was behind the absence of such mission-critical fixed gear… anyway, the first hole was plucked clean, & the second hole was filled flush with metal… and as a result, my forward progress was abruptly halted.

Before starting the wall, the beta around the camp fire was go lean on pins & heads, and certainly no need to carry a rivet kit for such a trade route, etc., etc. So that’s what we did, purposely skimping by design… with the motto that we’d rather retreat than over-pound-kill. I must say, when faced with the impasse, smack dab in the middle of the Headwall, said motto was a hard lump to swallow. With nary a bat hook, cheater stick, rivet kit or enabling gear-solution to escape the impasse, we basically hung out for the best parts of two days trying to be sly, witty & clever, but to no avail. Make no mistake: if the expected fixed gear was there or if we’d had brought proper backup gear, we’d been out of there with a song & a whistle, but without the right gear for the job… we’ll Tommy Caldwell we’re not. I’ll submit to you that the impasse had meager to do with skill, or lack thereof… but if skeptical, next time you’re up there, contemplate gaining that third crack without those two rivets… and see what you think? Rapping the Groove with the pigs told us all that we needed to know about how difficult retreat was going to be. About that time, we noticed another team coming up the corner below… due to the steepness of the Headwall, we had assumed that we were alone… and low and behold they had heard about the blown rivets in Camp 4, and had come prepared. Ultimately, we worked out deal with them, where we fixed the Groove and Triple Cracks for them, and they let us replace the rivets, and keep our position. Thanks to them, and them alone, we got our summit. Derive what you will, but the moral of the story for me was to put a little extra in the bottom of the haul bag.

After the Shield, that’s exactly what I did… In 2000, with the same partner, I did Mescalito hammer-less (at least by my definition) in 4 bivies. Speaking personally, the fact that the hammer, pins & rivet kit were in the bottom of the bag didn’t subtract from the game… indeed, the name of the game was not to play that card… and the higher we got, the more diligent we became. We were basically climbing on egg shells by the last pitch, so as not to blow a mission-critical fixed piece, and botch our progressively-illuminating goal. (I can only imagine how thin those egg shells would have been if we didn’t have backup.) Thanks to other parties that had yielded the hammer before us… and I must admit hybrid Aliens… we got our summit with the hammer-driven stuff buried in the bottom of the bag for the duration. Derive what you will, but the moral of the story for me was that just because you take backup gear, doesn’t mean you have to play the card.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 25, 2006 - 05:06pm PT

Jimmy Ray,
hammerless is better style than clean as it shows more committment, though perhaps the analogy of free vs free-solo is a bit extreme.

But committment has its down side.

You are to be commended, and I certainly don't see YOU as part of the problem, indeed from your actions you appear to be part of the solution.

What bugs me are the people that hold up precedent as an excuse to continue abuse already proved unnecessary blindly denying their own selfishness. Then they disparage me because they can't understand the difference between Style and ethics.

the Fet

climber

A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge

Sep 25, 2006 - 05:14pm PT

What also bugs me are the people who disparage others for their style of climbing and try to pass it off as ethics.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 25, 2006 - 05:30pm PT

nice post jimmyray. i used to live in dallas, i miss the witchita's greatly!

golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

Sep 25, 2006 - 06:02pm PT

Very good Jimmyray.

To sit here calling your ascent of Mescalito unworthy simply because you carried insurance is in my mind BS.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 25, 2006 - 06:10pm PT

For god's sake, you're in Chicago - you miss every place greatly. At least they have gyms now and you get to climb stuff for work. When I lived there, there were no gyms. Long drives and climbing were synonymous...

from an ex-Windy City resident

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Sep 25, 2006 - 06:14pm PT

Jeezuz... Why don't some of you folks get out and climb instead of hashing the same crap out over and over and over. Are you really convinced that *today* is the day it's going to matter and a difference be made?

Plenty here agree with the "ethic" and support it. Most didn't agree with the attack used to get the thread going. The two are completely separate issues,as has been stated here over and over. But just as any other spud has the right to go on and on about his opinion or ethic or what-have-you, also do all of the rest of us spuds have the same right to say the attack was bullsh#t. Get the f*#k over it already.

As I stated earlier, most people do the best they can, least amount of damage (clean as possible), yadda, yadda, yadda. What the f*#k else do you wankers want?! Get off your asses, quit bitching, pissing and moaning and go outside and climb. Armchair quarterbacks are pretty much worthless, eh.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 25, 2006 - 06:30pm PT

Yeah God damnit. There's cliffs to be eroded! You didn't want to just leave 'em the way they are do you?

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Sep 25, 2006 - 06:38pm PT

hahaha... Exactly, Ron! >;)

So, why *is* your name Piton Ron if you're now so opposed to pins and crusading for clean aid climbing?

Just ribbin' ya, as you should already know by now, Ron.

Cheers, eh.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 25, 2006 - 06:44pm PT

Just one of the paradoxes of life evil one. I sometimes use pins to create places for nuts, other times in drilled holes. I categorically deny that it has anything to do with any of my work in adult films.

EDIT: Since I know this will be followed by references to various piton sizes let me preface these with an assurance of neither rurp nor bong (although often smoked).
Remember those sleek beautiful pins made by Dolt? Rare and wonderful things.
The long dong?

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Sep 25, 2006 - 06:57pm PT

lol. The lost PR films? Would that make it a lost arrow? =)

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Sep 25, 2006 - 07:43pm PT

perhaps a RURP?

hahaha

just kidding.

now where were we? wasnt someone supposed to get flamed here? where is all the fun.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Sep 25, 2006 - 10:32pm PT

JimmyRay,

Right freaking on man! You get from an adventure what you are willing to contribute to it. You are clearly doing your best, come hell or high water, to stick to your goals. In return you get to enjoy the deep satisfaction of a challenge well met. No regrets, no bullsh#t. Moving up like a hawk in a thermal. Big wall climbing is pretty wild stuff and it takes a while before the exposure goes away and you can really get to tinkering with the widgets.

Sounds like The Shield gave you the total experience, the agony, and the ecstasy. The possibility of a drilled anchor failure exists on most routes, so carrying a narrow Logan hook or BD Talon is mandatory. The sheared off remnant can sometimes be pushed deeper to make space. I have had several bolt failures in 36 years and don't assume anything. Whether to carry a hammer and bolt kit or a wire coathanger (to bypass a single failed placement), or none of the above, are all decisions that affect the certainty of the outcome and hence, the adventure level.

Glad it didn't send you down. No fun at all bailing from there.
Had Mescalito been done without pounding before you tried it? I am trying to recall the particulars on that route clean.

Thanks for posting partner.

MSmith

Big Wall climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 26, 2006 - 01:16pm PT

Mimisoft wrote: “Do you consider yourselves as great or visionary wall climbers with respect to WOS and WOC; your two contributions to El Cap history?”

That’s three contributions, Mimi, as you forgot Ring of Fire, another clip-up you might enjoy. (Wait, wait, isn’t that four, as I bagged the first real ascent of Horse Play?)

“Your accounts of WOS … seems like an otherwise hellish and confusing experience.”

Hellish mostly from the way we were treated. Overall the climb was quite clarifying for me. Sorry you found it confusing.

”When you sat on the ground … gazing upward, what were your goals with respect to … that grand stage?”

Right freaking on man! You get from an adventure what you are willing to contribute to it. My goal was to clearly do my best, come hell or high water, to stick to my goals. In return I got to enjoy the deep satisfaction of a challenge well met. No regrets, no bullsh#t. Moving up like a hawk in a thermal. Big wall climbing is pretty wild stuff and it takes a while before the exposure goes away and you can really get to tinkering with the hooks.

Mimi

climber

Sep 26, 2006 - 09:30pm PT

The difference between you and every other person who has played this game is that with respect to technical mastery and competence based on relevant experience, neither you nor Bwana-Dick could pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel before you started up on your 39-day sufferfest.

You fellas were bare-assed naked in front of the world, bellowing your incompetence for all to hear, by the style in which you chose to do your route. Nobody in the history of El Cap has ever looked so foolish and yet curiously been so unashamed or utterly lacking in the ability to acknowledge or learn from your mistakes.

It should be abundantly obvious now that no one was going to take your prize from you. Yet somehow you continue to champion as in many past posts, the absurdist position that being competent and properly prepared somehow would've diminished the value of what you experienced. You're living in a fool's paradise if you think any thinking person buys that argument.

While you're feeling frisky, before you set foot on WOS, how many aid pitches longer than 100 feet had you ever led? Were any of them A3 (consensus rated) or harder? While leading, how many hook placements had you successfully stood on prior to facing the blankness?

Bwana-Dick, we know you're around. Answer these same questions without slithering or distortion.

MSmith

Big Wall climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 26, 2006 - 10:31pm PT

Well, Mimisoft, I seem to have you good and riled up. You may have more passion on this than even me. Hey, lots of questions to be asked, but I submit that the following is more substantive and important than any you have offered: Was this route done to less than the highest standard, that is, would another party have done it better. So far all the evidence points to “no”, making all your grumblings rather moot, I’d say. So rant, rave, and grouse all you want, ‘cause your only alternative is to send the SA.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Sep 27, 2006 - 11:02am PT

mimi,

the only thing "poor" style i see in their ascent is this:
1. they spent some time up there,
2. they didnt bother to fit into the valley heirarchy or follow the approved "ST road to new routes on El Cap" formula.
(i realize st was not around, but clearly, there were some expectations about this).

you can prove them unworthy. do the route. so many have shed so much BS here on these guys without any action.

mimi you also give PTPP crap but at least he went to give the route a shot. are you ever going to attempt it or are you going to sit there and throw worhtless BS these guys way without any reason.

BS, thats all i get out of your arguments about wos, mimi. anyone can do that. clearly if you and mr. grossman are riding the ethical white horse you can offer up more than the horsesh&& you have offered up?

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 27, 2006 - 12:00pm PT

Various people have advised us that saying less is saying more. As much as that cuts across my natural bent, I will take that advice. I think that people are about sick of hearing my lengthy responses to WoS criticisms, and I really do think that every reasonable question and criticism has been addressed at length. This is not the thread for yet another WoS installment anyway.

The Mimisoft program is obviously caught in an endless loop and stopped accessing data segment memory long ago. Since there's nothing I can do to help without the ability to reboot the machine it runs on (would somebody with local access please do this, so we can get something new and interesting from the AI?), there's no point in continuing to provide it with additional data that is useless to it anyway.

Russ Walling

Social climber

Out on the sand, Man.....

Sep 27, 2006 - 12:11pm PT

Beyond a Dead Horse (nice name for a route)

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 27, 2006 - 12:39pm PT

Yeah Russ,I already used Dead Horse Walking on Deadhorse Point.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 27, 2006 - 12:54pm PT

is it just me, or every time the WoS stuff gets brought up BOTH sides of the argument sound like idjits.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Sep 27, 2006 - 01:00pm PT

Euroford, I am really curious. Seriously. Exactly what sounds idiotic about saying, "I'm not going to keep thrashing over the same old issues, and this isn't the place for it anyway," and, "somebody who wants to keep the criticizing alive should go do the SA first"?

sketchy

Trad climber

Vagrant

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:12pm PT

I think the fact that you guys did a difficult first ascent without a lot of experience, and succeeded is pretty sweet. It sounds like the bolt count was much lower than first reported, and the fact it took so long just means you stuck with it. Its a shame the elitist sh#t on your ropes, but the fact that none of them have succeeded on it pretty much backs your claim. However you are right about less is more, these people are still bitching after all of these years and your only wasting time arguing. Eventually some else will climb it and most questions will be answered.

MSmith

Big Wall climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:29pm PT

sketchy wrote, "Eventually some else will climb it and most questions will be answered."
That about sums it up. Nothing's left to cover until then. Also, this is Ammon's thread, not a WoS thread.

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:35pm PT

I don't think the SA will change a thing. For one, the SA isn't going to happen by any of the folks on the "other side". It will happen by someone still shy of the crest of "the hill". Perhaps the evil, single-pin-placing Ammon? I don't see any of the flamers, or people on the "ethics" side, getting out and doing it, honestly. I mean how many of them still climb? Of those that still *do*, how many are climbing anything hard? Not meant as a slam or anything, just reality. The reality is how many people are prepared to go riding down a slab all day, 60+ feet at a time, for a couple of weeks? OK, so now say you're in your 50's with a family, a job a life?

Mostly, I just feel that the only person who can change their minds is themselves, or probably more correctly, one of the more elite of their group, as I don't know that a great number of them ever had the skills to send the route form the get-go. Certainly those who have tried, to date have failed and their own shitting party couldn't do more than jug the lines to chop the route.

I think more likely to be the truth, however, is that it is likely nothing will *ever* change the line in the sand that has been drawn here. I think both sides are well entrenched into their beliefs and that is that. Sometimes you just hit a point where it's better to just go out and climb and accept that this is the way it is.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:36pm PT

MB1, i wish i knew where i got the quote from, but its something like: "doing the same thing over and over again expecting a diffrent result is the definition of insanity". i seams 99% of the time this gets brought up thats about all that goes on.

and blablablabla "why don't you do the SA!??!"

becouse nobody wants to. doesn't that make you proud?

MSmith

Big Wall climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:39pm PT

Euroford, I'm not tracking. By "because nobody wants to. doesn't that make you proud?" are you saying that no one has done the SA because no one wants to?

WBraun

climber

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:51pm PT

It's the house of smoke, take a break from the war ......

MSmith

Big Wall climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:53pm PT

Nefarius,

"I don't think the SA will change a thing." After all that's gone on at ST over the past year, and given the fact that 3 regulars on ST have been on the lower pithes, one would have to conclude you are right.

Werner,
Great ad. Where did you find it?

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:54pm PT

"I don't think the SA will change a thing."

you mean that even after the SA we will be arguing about this still?

hahaha. WoS threads to infinity.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:56pm PT

yup. i mean why would you? i think about that climb and i can't come up with a SINGLE reason why I or anybody else would want to do it. i think about the only thing you would get out of bagging the SA would be to prove your an obsessive compulsive.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:58pm PT

Werner hits the bullseye with an image of phallic comparison.

MSmith

Big Wall climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:00pm PT

Then I guess ST has lots of obsessive compulsives. Elcapfool, Ammon, and PTPP to name a few.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:02pm PT

no, they all stopped. if it was a bitchin line those guys or somebody else would have climbed it.

WBraun

climber

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:10pm PT

Let's all come to terms, Mark & Richard are two fine gentlemen, who never really did anything wrong. This ethics bullshit will never end, let us do our best on our next climb please.

Be grateful for our abilities to be able to enjoy such a nice thing as being able to climb.

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:11pm PT

Well said, Werner.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:13pm PT

okay, well anyways i think we should just all head over to Steve's house of smoke for some ribs and a beer.

MSmith

Big Wall climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:14pm PT

Euro, you said "i can't come up with a SINGLE reason why I or anybody else would want to do it." Clearly that's bunk, because many have tried. Regardless of why they quit, they found a reason to try, which you claimed no sane person could have.

"if it was a bitchin line those guys or somebody else would have climbed it." Read the WoS threads and see if you don't come to a different conclusion.

Edit
Werner's comment above passed mine in cyberspace. Euro, you can have the last word.

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:17pm PT

yeah i did read all of that, and maybe i'm totally wrong, but i think if i started up that thing i'd end up quiting and my excuse would be: "this sucks"

i guess its cool that somebody did it. i just don't see why anybody else would want to.

edit: don't want or need the last word. just trying to find something to talk about on the ST.

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Sep 27, 2006 - 05:23pm PT

Euro -- Hell yeah! I'll meet you at Steve's! I'll bring some extra beer... Just in case!

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Sep 27, 2006 - 05:29pm PT

good. cuz i suspect that the flames are lower than this:

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 27, 2006 - 07:01pm PT

Where is Stevie Ray when we REALLY need him?

When the house is a smokin'
don't bother tokin'
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother tokin'
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother c'mon in

Kick off yer shoes
'n start spreadin' the news
Whole lotta climbers
got a whole lotta blues
Pull down their ropes
Ya got nuthin' ta lose
Take a dump on 'em too
Just don't get none on yer shoes

When the house is a smokin'
don't bother tokin'
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother tokin'
When the house is a smokin'
don't bother c'mon in

Walkin on the street
you can hear the sounds
Of the Old Valley Guard
gonna take the crew down
Gonna get on their case
start spreadin' the news
Who they think they are
gonna come here and climb what they choose?

(just a pickin and a grinnin)lol

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Sep 27, 2006 - 07:22pm PT

extra beer, ALWAYS a good idea.

ron you remind me, back down in dallas, about an hour south was a forest preserve full of mountain bike trails. back in the middle of knowwhere accesable via some technical singletrack was this amazingly cool red painted custom fabricated steel bridge dedicated to stevie ray. i wish i had a picture of it.

Mimi

climber

Sep 28, 2006 - 12:44am PT

Marshall Braun, don't you worry none. The streets'll be clear in a couple days. I've not quite exhausted all of my snake charming skills in hopes of getting some straight answers out of these two sidewinders. White men speak with forked tongue. Right now, fork stuck in picnic table.

Bwana-dick, as an academic, I'm rather amazed that a few simple questions on your goals and preparation pose such a big problem. Chill out, will ya, I'm not asking you about the hole count.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Oct 3, 2007 - 12:12am PT

I was up there this afternoon schlepping loads. My bollocks still shrivel in terror anytime I look up at the Wings of Steel slab. Mark and Richard are bad to the bone - do you know anyone who has taken a fifty-foot Factor 2 Fall and demo'd their rope like what happened at the start of pitch 2?

The route is unrepeated because it is FUKKIN' HARD! Scary-ass hard.

Brrrrrr..... I shiver just thinking about it.....

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Oct 3, 2007 - 02:07am PT

Pete, Bwana and Skid ain't bad to the bone. They're just bad to the stone. Lose your love for the great gleaming slab of Jesus because the thing is mostly enhanced. I don't care how godly those boys are, nobody stands on 150 narrow Leepers without a whack of the old Inspector Gadget shaping pick followed by a tiny but exciting Bwana dimple to force upward progress. Those fellas will admit to 8-10 bonafide dimples.

You and Holly are going to do Horse Chute. When you get to the belay under the overlap, swing over and take a look at the WOS, aka POS, connecting pitch. As I recall, there were drill marks on about 3/4 of the hook placements in view on that pitch.

Cheers,
Steve

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Oct 3, 2007 - 12:22pm PT

Hey Steve,

Thanks for your answers on Horse Chute and other stuff in the area. I can't speak for the rest of WOS, but the first pitch was pretty stout. I was looking carefully and didn't see any enhancements - the hooking is desperate and you are guaranteed to take long falls. We replaced the old bolts with new, and the old rivets with new rivets of the same kind. It awaits a repeat. I guess there are 140-142 bonafide hook moves - most of them RFH - but I doubt I'll be the guy to find out.

As for Mark and Richard, you should come and hang out sometimes. They are actually really nice guys. Tom and I had a lot of fun with them when they were here.

My understanding is that Mark and Richard did finish WoS on Aquarian, but they went back later, climbed Aquarian to the Overseer roof, then did 2 1/2 pitches of the cracks of WoS, and then headed out right to catch Truck Stop ledge. Where exactly does their variation come in to Horse Chute/Play?

Also, Steve, if my hazy memory serves me correctly, I think Mark and Richard arrived at the Truck Stop with the intention of climbing the Horse Play line about two weeks AFTER you and Sue beat them to it. How could you have seen enhanced hook moves if you were there first?

And HEY YOU GUYS - I am not trying to turn this into a pissing match. I'm just trying to figure out who went where and when. Call it a history lesson for me. So be nice, will yas? Sheesh.

couchmaster

climber

Oct 3, 2007 - 02:53pm PT

Am I really seeing this? Ammon stomps in the hornets nest then take off leaving you all to swat the damn pesky things while he heads off to climb and enjoy life:-)

Too funny.

I agree with him that being prepared is a good thing, see Jimmy rays post, but frankly, I think Ron is way ahead of the curve on the constructive scarring thing.

Assuming that a route doesn't go on clean pro: on those hammered pin placements which are getting beat out badly, I don't understand why is it so bad to place a bolt, but having every party slowly trash and scar the line is OK?

PS
(Mimi- there were already at least 2 Wings of Steel threads that Mark and Ricard posted extensively too and were huge if you want to work on your thread revival skillz over that way)

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Oct 3, 2007 - 03:38pm PT

OK... It's been SO long since this thread, and the WoS threads were put to rest and things seemed to have calmed down, etc. Thanks, Pete. :eye roll: hehehe

So, to refresh my memory, I started reading the beginning of this thread and the only real questions I came away with was "is andanother just being a f*#ktard or did someone actually accuse Ammon of chipping something?!" I don't recall SG accusing Ammon of chipping in the thread that lead to this one. I remember something about him placing a single pin on a climb. I believe it was even hand-placed....

andanother said -- " Ammon
It sounds like you would be better suited to gym climbing.
Stop chipping holds and learn how to climb you f*#king pussy.
It's 2006."

Along with a bunch of other senseless references to Ammon chipping, in the beginning of the thread.

Seems like pretty typical Internet Balls of Steel Syndrome, which is really Shriveled Balls Syndrome, mis-labeled, on andanother's part. Just curious though.

It will be interesting to see where this all goes this time....

Mimi

climber

Oct 3, 2007 - 04:51pm PT

Nef, I can't believe you forgot the details. The original point made about Ammon's climbing was that he nailed on a route in Zion that had gone clean. All in the name of speed. It was not noted by anyone who witnessed the ascent that he handplaced the pin. And it wasn't about one lone pin. The overall discussion started with unaddressed questions about speedclimbing tactics; continuing to nail vs. clean aid. It had nothing to do with being 'prepared' or not. Give me a break. I'd originally asked Ammon about this as a new participant on the ST. He said it was 'efficient' climbing. I guess I pressed him a bit too much on the issue so he wrote me offline giving me sh#t for questioning it. Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers. Sheesh!

couch, there were more like six threads including Mussy's WoS Splinter-Rivets and Replacement. I did post to a later WOS thread. This thread touched on that route and it is relevant to altering the rock, so posts were directed toward it. If you missed it, you should check out WoS XXVI. I think that was the last one from a year ago. Great stuff. Are you suggesting that it be revived? heh heh

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Oct 3, 2007 - 05:18pm PT

Sorry, Mimi. It's been a long time. I'll have to dig up the thread, I suppose. I remember there being talk from a few different folks, Ammon included, where it was one pin, on a blind placement, where the general consensus was that some topos didn't show it and a lot of people didn't realize it was there or couldn't find it, etc. Something along those lines anyhow. I could be wrong on this, so don't equate my thoughts with reality in the matter. I don't want to speak for Ammon. I am fairly certain it was a single pin though.

However, as to my original question... This would make the answer - andanother was just being a f*#ktard and trying to stir something up. Placing a pin on a route isn't chipping. Not even the same ball park, really. Calling someone a "chipper" for doing so might ruffle some feathers.

Anyhow, I'm not looking to get involved in these threads again, really. I just know Ammon fairly well and know that he isn't out chipping holds on routes and does his best to keep with good ethics on his climbs. I thought what andanother said was pretty shitty and highly doubt he'd say such to Ammon in person.

I mainly free climb now anyhow, so I don't take a hammer OR pins on my climbs these days. I may be dusting them off for some winter stuff this year though!

Cheers all!

Mimi

climber

Oct 4, 2007 - 01:43am PT

Nef, Ammon knew the route went clean but cut a corner to shave time. As a matter of principle, someone at his level knows better, hence the controversy, so you can cool it with the excuses. I didn't see where anyone accused him of chiseling. There is an obvious difference, but bad style remains weak sauce.

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Oct 4, 2007 - 02:34am PT

Excuses, eh... Maybe it's you who should re-educate yourself with the thread then (try the first few posts of this thread), and possibly re-read and comprehend what I wrote. From there, we might be able to have an educated conversation about my comments. If you read carefully, I wasn't saying anything ( let alone negative) about Steve or yourself, so need to get feathers ruffled. I'm simply stating my opinion of someone I know, as well as what he said here, publicly, not in supposed emails. There's really nothing more you can expect.

But now that you mention it, I do remember someone telling Ammon he needed to "sack up", which is really quite laughable.

Anyway, bad thread to re-hash. Same old arguments. No point, so I'm out.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Oct 4, 2007 - 12:24pm PT

All right, MIMI - can I please sic you on this one?

Maybe you didn't see my photos, but have you seen the [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=439672&msg=452738#msg452738"]recent retrobolting on Dihedral Wall?[/url]

While people seem willing to challenge each other about questionable events twenty years ago, here are photographic examples of blatant ethical transgressions which occur today. In the link above, you will see shiny new bolts placed next to perfect cracks. I am amazed and saddened that my post has been ignored!

I don't get it. WHY has nobody even noticed or commented? Is it because the bolts were placed by superstar Todd Skinner, who is now dead? Or is it because superstar Tommy Caldwell used the bolts to make the "hardest" free ascent of El Cap? There is a photo of Tommy on the back cover of the new McTopo big walls guide [I thnk it is] showing him on this very pitch, clipped to the bolts!

Me? I think it's a frickin' disgrace! If I had my bolt removal gear with me, which I didn't, I would have started taking them out. It was my plan to ask Todd to do so. The Hubers have freed all sorts of equally desperate aid lines, and haven't resorted to retrobolting tactics. Does this mean you shouldn't retrobolt 5.13 pitches, but it's OK if the pitch goes at 5.14? Do tell.

In fairness to Tommy, I spoke to him about it, and he said that while he did use the bolts, he didn't place any.

Right, Mimi, click and go get 'em! And please comment in the Dihedral Wall thread.

Thanks,
Pete

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Oct 4, 2007 - 05:39pm PT

Pete- I dislike the sport utility bolts on the Dihedral Wall as much as you do. I didn't feel like sending the Dihedral FA thread off in that direction when you last raised these issues. I always favor the lowest impact option and don't feel that Todd took appropriate action when adequate conventional gear could have been prearranged to allow for the rare free ascent. Todd did what he needed to do too, as always, to bring the route within his own grasp. Someone more able will soon come along and reduce the number of necessary freeclimbing bolts to some acceptable minimum. In the meantime, every passing party in aiders lives with the discontinuity and somebody has to clean up the mess.
Threaded stainless steel inserts or keyhole hangers would have been a less obtrusive drilled anchor option for this situation.

WOS connects with the Horse Chute arch before heading left to the Overseer. It is easy to swing over and check out the 9th pitch on WOS. I did and recall many bwana dimples. Those guys will admit 10 enhancements out of 150 narrow Leeper Logan hooks for the whole route. I bet that you find that many on 9 alone.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Oct 5, 2007 - 08:14am PT

I haven't responded to anything about WoS on the taco for something like a year. But, the gross man just won't let the subject fade into the very obscurity that he and other early detractors claimed was destined to be the fate of the route.

So, let me get this straight, gross man....

Because you can swing over to pitch 9 of WoS and see dimples, that MUST mean that WE did them? So, presumably, we are simply lying when we admit to about 10 modifications (not "dimples" as you keep in-error saying)?

So, what is it? We've denied what you're claiming, and we've clarified forthrightly what we did and did not do. Either we're bold-faced lying about it or we're not. Which is it? If you admit that we're not lying, then you've got nothing more to say on the subject, so you can finally shut up. If you claim that we are lying, I'll see you in court.

What's it going to be?

Ammon

Big Wall climber

El Cap

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2007 - 04:22pm PT

"Ammon knew the route went clean but cut a corner to shave time"

Mimi, you really have no idea what you're talking about. You were not up there, you don't know what I was thinking or feeling and you probably have never even done the route. Your armchair antics are annoying.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Oct 18, 2007 - 05:40pm PT

Well then Ammon,
This is a total re-hash but whatever it takes.....

1.Did you know that the route had been done without hammering?

2.If so, were you unable to do it that way or were you unwilling to take the time to do so? Or what?????

3. While you were laughing at my "seriousness" on your recent ascent of the Zodiac did you or anyone in your party pound when others found it unnecessary to do so. Having done the route hammerless on your prior ascent of the Zodiac with all the mank in situ doesn't actually answer this question directly. How about it, Ammon, just three easy little questions if you would be so obliging.

I haven't done the route either. Are you willing to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about??????

Edit: Oh silly me, I almost forgot. I am still dying to know the location of that Bolt Ladder of Shame that your friends free climbed on the Turning Point. Where was that?????

Your BS and avoidance is beyond annoying, Ammon, and rises to the level of pathetic and disgusting. Just thought you might like to know what I am thinking and feeling up here.

You can run away and snivel post as per usual but you cannot hide on the ST.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Aug 20, 2011 - 10:07pm PT

From the original post on this thread back in 2006:

Steve,

The message you are sending to beginner and future climbers is very dangerous. I can easily see parties getting in serious trouble, or possibly dying, by following your ethics.

Just as true today as it was 5 years ago.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Aug 20, 2011 - 10:20pm PT

Graniteclimber how about posting my response if you are going to qoute in isolation?

Ammon and I have come to an understanding long ago and it took a bit of wrangling to get there.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Aug 20, 2011 - 10:42pm PT

Which response? This one?

Your BS and avoidance is beyond annoying, Ammon, and rises to the level of pathetic and disgusting. Just thought you might like to know what I am thinking and feeling up here.

You can run away and snivel post as per usual but you cannot hide on the ST.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Aug 21, 2011 - 12:15am PT

GC just calls people on their sh#t.......no more, and no less.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Aug 21, 2011 - 01:27am PT

Greg, if you want to go back to that fine. Perhaps your adventures in the big ranges have made you careless and complacent.

Rapping of your rope once on an easy crag--that's a mistake. But then rapping of the end of your rope a second time on the same rap... that should have been a reality check.

I think just about every person here except you would be an excellent source of advice on safe rappelling technique.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Aug 21, 2011 - 01:31am PT

GC just calls people on their sh#t.......no more, and no less.

online, anonymously.

We get it. Its old shtick. Be positive and influence those around you in a positive way, you won't need to re-hash old drama to find distractions to your own life :)

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Aug 21, 2011 - 02:11am PT

So what have you been up to ?

Same sh#t, different day, I assume.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Aug 21, 2011 - 02:31am PT

Richard has plenty of experience when it comes to suing people, so I wouldn't test him on this.

Maybe that's why Grossman and Mimi just make stupid insults now, like picking on Kait's mother, instead of saying anything meaningful.

I hope he's worked it out that they're not worth his time.

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