Discussion Topic |
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 19, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
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Class acts all of them. The same can be said for the guys that manned up and apologized for being wrong all those years ago.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 19, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
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Studly - only one man manned up, and he did it right here on McTopo. As for the other two? Nothin' but crickets.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
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SnagFilms
Hulu
IndieFlix
ITunes,
Xfinity On Demand
Steepedge.com
AdventureFilms.com
Vaporvue.com
Xbox
Playstation
Roku
Apple TV
Watch wherever you can. SnagFilms is non subscription so it's free there. Please support ALL who make adventure films.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
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Thanks Wolf... its a tough gig to follow your heart and make these films..
Bravo
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 20, 2014 - 01:14am PT
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nice film (the long version)..... brave ascent..... perhaps heroic is the word (the first and the repeat). (edit: I deleted my comments. still true I suppose, but I don't want to be part of a dog pile.)..... carry on
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:19am PT
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Yes Pete, you're right. Steve Schneider I have nothing but the utmost respect for. The others, well... karma is a tough mistress to answer to.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2014 - 09:13am PT
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Yes, we could not find a place for this discussion in the film. I know it feels contrived but this was truly the first time the 1st and 2nd ascent team had ever met so the conversation was some what stiff as conversations are sometimes with people we don't really know. But I thought there was some info in there that would be nice to see in this format.
Steve Grossman: I have the utmost respect for Steve. He is an important part of our film as he boldly and confidently offers his opinions. For that honesty I am eternally grateful. I have only positive feelings for Steve, he was kind, generous and honest, I can't ask for much more from anyone.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 09:29am PT
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I thought it was worthwhile to watch it (the El Cap Meadow short),
awkward as it may have been.
Maybe next time you could get Oprah or Graham Norton to emcee? ;-)
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 20, 2014 - 09:32am PT
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Question: is that Grossman guy really as big a dick as he comes across as?
Not having seen the film, I can't comment on anyone's performance in it. But Steve has been a close friend for many years now, and I can vouch for the fact that he's a warm, funny, kind, and generous man.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 20, 2014 - 10:19am PT
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It's been a few months since I watched this but,
"Question: is that Grossman guy really as big a dick as he comes across as?"
My impression was that he does not come across very well. But maybe not his fault. There seemed not enough context/backstory to explain why he was dissing so hard on the route and the FA party.
His comments sounded jarring in part because the rest of the movie was so upbeat, with little or no criticism of the route or the style or the vision, or explanation of why there was criticism.
Steve comes off as an outlier, when in fact at the time of the FA and for years after there was widespread and vicious condemnation of all aspects of the climb. In that context his comments would sound totally mainstream, consensus opinion.
This was not really explained or explored, as I recall. Maybe my recollection is not so great, though.
Anyway, to fully explain this wider context would be a huge challenge. The massive, well-funded Valley Uprising, made by a vastly experienced team, struggled to explain much of the byzantine social world of Camp 4 in the 1970s.
The WoS movie IS a very fine testament to Ammon and Kait. Might actually have been better without Steve's soundbites at all.
The best comment about the climb I've read was from Rob Slater, who did the first 5 pitches:
"There's a lot of drilling, but there's a lot of really delicate hooking, too"
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 20, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
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Thanks Nita for the link to the hulu access point.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 20, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
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"Steve Grossman: I have the utmost respect for Steve. He is an important part of our film as he boldly and confidently offers his opinions. For that honesty I am eternally grateful. I have only positive feelings for Steve, he was kind, generous and honest, I can't ask for much more from anyone."
Jeff - I am laughing so hard right now, there are tears rolling down my face and I almost p|ssed my pants!!!!!!!1111111
One of the most fundamental parts of your excellent film - and the part that will be most appreciated by those here at Supertopo who have read all of Steve Grossman's posts concerning Mark and Richard - is the Steve Grossman interview at the very end of your film. The interview that was included as one of those "click here after you have seen the movie" thing.
Jeff - do have the Steve Grossman interview uploaded on line? Can you please provide us a link here?
And if you haven't, will you PLEASE upload it, and provide us the link!
Cheers,
Pete
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 20, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
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So.... I'm watching the WOS video posted to Hulu...
At the Steve Grossmann part of the interview with him where he talks about how the first ascent team wrote about there being a sense of urgency about doing the climb... mentions that others would be on it before them if they had not got onto the climb...
Grossman says nobody was going up that climb...
Ammon and Kate did it....
If the climb never gets another ascent... what does that prove? Or, would that prove something to anyone involved?
So far in the movie it seems that the climb was too difficult... maybe it was really ahead of its time.
Unfortunately... listening to the first ascent team talk about their treatment from the climbing community....
Makes me glad I am no longer a climber... That's not the community I was a part of... and it sounds like a pretty f*#ked up community to be a part of... but it is what it is. I guess I should just be glad I never did anything controversial in the climbing world... like live a life of freedom within the activity I loved.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 20, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
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Steve comes off as a curmudgeonly outlier, when in fact at the time of the FA and for years after there was widespread and vicious condemnation of all aspects of the climb. In that context his comments would sound totally mainstream, consensus opinion.
Though an important point of context to consider, it seems as though most who were originally against WOS have changed their minds and perspectives as the reality of the climb has come into the community consciousness over time. Grossman's interview though was not done in the past when this negative community perspective was the norm, the interview was instead recorded in the present when that perspective for most people seems to have changed. In that context Grossman appears to be an outlier because In fact, his rather vicious perspective of Jensen and Smith (rather than the route itself) today IS an outlier in the climbing community.
At the Steve Grossmann part of the interview with him where he talks about how the first ascent team wrote about there being a sense of urgency about doing the climb...
Having read the book that Jensen wrote about the climb, I was struck by this statement by Grossman when I saw it in the film. I do not recall ANYTHING in the book that would lead an impartial reader to come to the conclusion that Grossman presents about the text. I don't have the book on me anymore (leant it out long ago) but I would be interested to see the textual support to what seems to me Grossman's creating an account out of whole cloth.
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
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I watched the full length movie last night. Thanks for the link and thanks for the movie, really enjoyed it.
I think Grossman's perspective is useful because he represents the overwhelming feelings towards Mark and Richard when the route was going up.
And it's clear he's still butthurt to this day.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 20, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
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Grossman talking about the animosity being such that if they needed rescue the climbers wouldn't do it... let them meet their end....
That's a great sentiment....
sure, angry climbers say things... angry people say things...
doesn't make it right.. and the mind that first thought it was what makes us all smell a little funny.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
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climbers are sheeple too
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
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punishment for those involved should be that they
have to go do the route. It does not look easy.
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wheatBeer
Social climber
TheBronx
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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Jensen & Smith are owed a huge public apology from the yosemite locals of the day.
God Damn Right!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
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Yeah right just blame all Yosemite Locals many who had absolutely nothing to do with this circus ......
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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Yes all of them. Malemute is going to drive down there and personally hold all of you responsible. In his Prius.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
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The clip really brings some resolution for me. After watching the movie in Yosemite last year, and the heckling and booing, I actually watched the whole thing again just now.
What is done is done, and it seems that things have settled out and those that were involved in various aspects of this have made their peace with it.
The internet, and our seemingly-endless desire to exacerbate, is less forgiving.
Thanks for the clip, and the links to the movie.
It was better this time.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
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"Jensen & Smith are owed a huge public apology from the yosemite locals of the day.
All of them."
Dream about it, never gonna happen! It's the dumbest climb in Yosemite history....and there's actually a movie about it!!
After being named the "shitter" for 30 years by M and J, even though they lie and say otherwise, it's not forthcoming. We all know who actually was the shitter, and that chump never apologized to me for taking loads of crap and getting scapegoated for his actions. You weren't there malemute, you're jumping to a hollow conclusion. S and J throw victim cards like confetti....pretty darn silly!!
One thing is very certain, the movie has only two people involved in the circus...S and J, no one else. Never is there just one side for any story, always two or three or more, this movie and video clip and book have one narrow focus. In one of the movie trailers S and J claim people surrounded them and threatened violence, just a lame ridiculous assertion and I never heard that previously. Werner is correct, to group everyone deemed a "Valley local" is silly, the narrative in the movie and book claim it was a big mob mentality when in fact it wasn't, not even close!!
"They were too cowardly to climb the route to get the facts"
Nope, we were all lied to by the three perps, they came back after their vandalism and told everyone it was a bolt ladder, funny how that fact among so many others isn't in the movie, book or this video clip because it doesn't fit their ridiculous narrative. Again, you were NOT there and from the sounds of it you just might believe the WMD's in Iraq fallacy?
From Peter Haan....no disrespect intended, but this is just pure fantasy because what happened in the Valley in the years after WOS indeed had some horrible actions by many.
Mar 17, 2014 - 01:51am PT
"Perhaps we can say all these years later and with all the changes since, a Wings of Steel incident could not happen again in the Valley today."
"Crazed termitic locals might not try to hurt them and won't feel they have to protect anything by bullying and abuse."
Perhaps a very small group of people wanted to hurt them, very small group, I was not included along with the majority that were vocal and have never heard about that fantasy until I saw that trailer...again, we were lied to, not an excuse for being jerks but just a fact.
Peter and many others don't even have a clue what happened in the Valley during the 80's, not even the slightest clue, so jumping to conclusions is just another hollow false narrative. Some pretty serious violence and vandalism did go down that makes the entire WOS incident look mild.
From crunch:
Nov 4, 2014 - 10:18am PT
Great comments Peter Haan. Thoughtful, sharp. As usual, an excellent "perspective" on the whole deal.
Again, no disrespect intended, but Peter doesn't know the whole deal because he wasn't there and hasn't heard the whole deal from all the players.
Just my two cents, don't believe the false narratives presented in this movie, it's nothing remotely close to the "whole deal".
Paul Joseph Goebbels would be proud of this lame propaganda video and only lemmings care about this stupid climb.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
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Because no one has done a third ascent...and we all want Grossman to give it a try and report back here!
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wheatBeer
Social climber
TheBronx
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
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To bad Steve Grossman's finger prints are all over the "controversy". He is the embodiment of the MOB of that time.
Steve calls him a historian is such a joke. What a blowhard. He has absolutely no credibility with me. Well documented that he is no historian but a perpetrator of rumor.
Probability that Grossman in one of the "shitters"......High.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
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Nor do i Kevin...nor do i.
You're not alone.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
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No climbing on Sundays for religious reasons??
Great vid, well made with lots of enjoyable interviews. Thx.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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Not a sincere apology Ron. Steve heard there was gonna be a video about this dumb climb and thought he would be outed as the shitter. He did indeed fool loads of people though with his phony apology.
The WOS movie has a very narrow focus and it's hype has people believing all sorts of silly false narratives regarding those of us on the rescue team during those years. When I watched one of the trailers with all the hype and lies from S and J claiming it was a organized mob that made threats of violence etc....I just laughed my a$$ off!! Again, they throw victim cards around like confetti....whine whine whine!!!
When all the players are left out except the so-called victims harping and whining about their story, it's pretty obvious it's all narrowly focused hype. I see a very dishonest narrative in the production of this movie, ....very sad indeed. But until these victim card throwers wrote their book it was all nothing but a distant memory for most of us because it remains a stupid climb that will never be significant or popular. No one would care if there wasn't so much hype.
Just shameful dishonest scapegoating in order to hype up those extremely false narratives, it's pathetic. Those slandering Steve Grossman obviously remain clueless, he's a fine human being and a very talented bold climber.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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Hey meaty
Didn't P Chesko die a few years ago?
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
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When posting this video clip I certainly never expected to start this type of discussion. As a filmmaker I normally don't defend nor explain the choices I made. But it is interesting to me how people see what they want to see and make statements of fact about the work when no evidence of those facts exist.
I made this film with, for and about my friends and their second ascent of a controversial climb. During the making of the film we talked with the first ascentionists and some people who had a relationship with El Capitan. We never intended nor did we attempt to tell the whole story of WOS. That thread is a sub plot in the film and certainly not propaganda.
We tried to make a film that appealed to an audience beyond just the climbing community and we have been successful in that. The minutia and technical aspects of climbing were muted to to try to reach that larger audience.
I'm thankful the film is still being watched and continues to spur discussion. The continued discussions that the film inspired is what in my mind makes the film a success for me as a filmmaker.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 11:01pm PT
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Hi Werner
I've heard rumors about that, don't know?? Hope not!!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 20, 2014 - 11:23pm PT
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Meh. I was there, didn't care. Weird sh#t happens all the time all over the world. So there's that. At the end of the day, the only question to ask is: Does Wings Of Steel do El Cap proud? I've answered that question for myself, not that I cared much. And Steve Grossman is an awesome human being whom I'm known for 30 years, so alla you the H8ers can eat my f*#k.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 21, 2014 - 08:06am PT
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And Steve Grossman is an awesome human being
Yes he is.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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After reading the Jim Beyer thread I'm thinking he may be the guy to do the WOS 3rd ascent; not to chop it but to climb it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 10:11am PT
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What, the second ascent wasn't enough validation?
My only question is: why wasn't it named 'Forty Days and Forty Nights'?
Much more biblical, right?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 11:52am PT
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QuoAnd Steve Grossman is an awesome human being
Yes he is. te Here
It's all Mimi's fault.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
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This was posted on Mountain Project yesterday.
By Jim Logan
1 day ago
When I made the first small wide base hooks (Leeper/Logan hooks) I imagined someone doing a climb that is exactly Wings of Steel. I always thought it was terrifying to go out multiple hook moves on those things as they would stay on little edges that were at the breaking strength of the rock and you never knew when the rock was going to explode and send you plummeting. It is very committing climbing. Congratulations to all of you for pushing the limits of slab climbing. I'm sorry the community in the Valley at that time was so insular. Jamie Logan
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nah000
climber
everyw/here
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Nov 22, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
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just as certainly as grossman has made great contributions to the climbing pursuit and sounds to be a great person irl, is the certainty that any intended and earned credibility as an objective "historian" has been undermined by the invective he contributed to the online wos drama fest...
never leave the metahistory writing to the warriors...
it's too personal.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 23, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
 strangely, this reminds me of Climber/SAR workers in the earlier video talking about not wanting to help if they needed rescue...
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 23, 2014 - 07:48pm PT
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grossmans axe is pretty sharp by now
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 23, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
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You can see the first bolt in this photo. Looked pretty sketch to me.
What a line, following a line of weakness up the Great Slab, classic.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 07:24am PT
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"strangely, this reminds me of Climber/SAR workers in the earlier video talking about not wanting to help if they needed rescue..."
Just the exact ridiculous hollow false narrative I was talking about Jingy, not one person on SAR said anything like that around me, just more hype and whine, just another lame assertion. If you believe that then you might believe there were WMD's in Iraq. Your shallow insult is duly noted Jingy. FYI Jingy, the folks in SAR don't make the decision who gets rescued....or how or when.
This is where the filmmaker is pretty hypocritical when he claims it's not about the minutia, his movie has all sorts of slander flowing but somehow he doesn't notice? Dish out the slander and narrowly focused false narratives but then wonder why it's questioned, pretty weak. When people like Jingy try and equate the SAR folks in the Valley during that time with an extremely horrible white supremacist it's rings hollow when you claim you're not interested in whole story while the slander still flows here.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:20am PT
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Dimitri Barton = Meaty,
Before you accuse a filmmaker of lying, in a film you have evidently not yet seen, why don't you:
1) Watch the movie
2) Watch the interview after the end of the movie. It is not in the movie itself, but rather one of those "additional features" that you find at the end of many DVD movies
3) Listen on that additional feature where a member of SAR at the time specifically states that had Mark and Richard needed a rescue, the SAR team would have refused to have gone up there to rescue them, and that they would have left the Wings of Steel team up there TO DIE.
4) Report back here after you have heard with your own ears.
Jeff didn't make this stuff up, dude - it's a FILMED INTERVIEW in the movie.
P.S. In the possible event that you have seen the movie itself, go back once more and this time don't miss the part at the end, because this is the part that is relevant.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:30am PT
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Pete, just give it a rest with your demands I do what you say, pretty silly.
"3) Listen on that additional feature where a member of SAR at the time specifically states that had Mark and Richard needed a rescue, the SAR team would have refused to have gone up there to rescue them, and that they would have left the Wings of Steel team up there TO DIE."
Sorry chump, I never heard that silly lie/assertion previously. I was on the team and I never said anything close and would have never supported that jive, but keep the hype alive Pete, you weren't there and just like everyone else spewing hype and whine you're just repeating the very narrow focus in the movie. Propaganda works on feeble minds.....that person speaks for himself and not everyone on the SAR site at the time.....whine, whine whine...Pete!!
Did say the filmmaker was lying? It's a lie to say I did.
An interview in the movie doesn't make anything said fact, so keep squirming Pete.
Again, the climbers on the SAR site do not decide who gets rescues, just another silly completely false narrative that pervades this movie.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:36am PT
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Warbler...
It's pretty simple for me to defend myself from the slander, if you call it drama so be it.
To accuse those of us on SAR of refusing to rescue people is downright pathetic.....and a flat out lie. It makes for some great hype in select feeble minds to help sell a lame movie.. So excuse me for setting the record straight.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:38am PT
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Kevin,
I m not saying your focus is on me but drama for you may be serious slander and libel for others, just saying....It's not drama for me, hasn't been for a very long time and I m not gonna take the sander sitting down. If you and others just shrug it off I don't really care, but I will continue to set the record straight no matter who wants to listen, ... or not.
I consider the very shallow accusation that the SAR climbers would refuse to rescue these two as horrible as the slander gets here in Supertopo, quite an achievement.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:41am PT
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try and equate the SAR folks in the Valley during that time with an extremely horrible white supremacist
Not to take away from the breezy narrative here, but WTF is this all about?
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:42am PT
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BJ....that was indeed NOT the talk of the time. Again, I was on the team, never heard that jive from anyone. If someone told
Steve that story so be it, but in no way whatsoever was it the talk during that time.It's hype, it's whine, it's makes a good story with victim cards raining down....
I m not going to sit back and be slandered by some of you, just not going to happen...again!!
My point is this movie has created far more hype and whine and slander based on horrible lies and false narratives than the previous threads here in this forum.
If the filmmaker producing a movie that helped create this lame slander hype and libel want to avoid harsh well deserved criticism, perhaps they would have chose to include someone that was actually there to verify that sort of serious accusation.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:20am PT
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I brought up the "discussion" mentioned in the film to illustrate the level of ill will that existed at the time regarding these guys and their actions. Of course I was there at the time to have this discussion.
When you step into a helicopter, rappel to the edge or take on a rescue situation you incur risk to help someone else in need as a matter of service. Prior to this situation, I had never felt the need to weigh that risk on a personal level as I also pointed out.
This discussion was not a vote to boycott or deny these guys a rescue as Pete keeps trying to portray it. It was a frank discussion among a few of us involved in SAR. If the call had actually come in, John Dill and the rest of the SAR staff would certainly have gone and done their best and I would have likely done the same as a matter of policy having rendered aid to those in need many times before without any such reservation.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:29am PT
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the SAR team would have refused to have gone up there to rescue them
Such bullsh!t.
People run their mouth all the time.
When actual action time comes around mouths stop flappin their bullsh!t becomes mute.
YOSAR is not run by some climbers in Camp 4 ever.
It's run by NPS Law Enforcement the NPS Protection Division.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 11:15am PT
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Jeff - can you please upload the Steve Grossman interview as it appears on the DVD after the end of film?
Then, Dimitri and everyone else can hear and see what Steve said, and you don't have to take my word for it.
I suppose I could go find my DVD, listen to what Steve said, and quote it here, but I'm sure it would be far more effective to upload that segment.
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Al_Smith
climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 11:34am PT
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I honestly have no horse in this race, but the last interview with Steve Grossman at the end of the film demands some elaboration/clarification...
First we get Ammon's final word on his experience on the SA:
Ammon: 'It was a good solid route, they did a really good job. It was hard, challenging...what they reported is pretty much spot on, and what people thought about the route is not at all what the route is."
Then, Grossman: "At one point on the Supertopo, Pete Zabrok asked me the question:...'Look Steve you are on these guys really hard. What do you want out of them?' And my response was, 'Well, for starters I'd like an admission from Richard that he would do things differently knowing what he knows now. Pretty simple, pretty fundamental stuff.'
I think it would help to get clarification on what Steve wants and why he thinks something is owed to him personally? If its 'pretty simple, pretty fundamental stuff' it should be easy enough to clarify what you think they should have done differently. Arguably the single greatest modern aid climber just completed the SA and said they did a good job and reported honestly what they did on the route.
We get that you don't like the route and that you find it unaesthetic. I'm sure there are others who find massive slabs and run-out hooking to be fascinating. Obviously that is a really small group of individuals but I don't see how else that slab would have been climbed. Its not as though there was a free climb waiting to be had, and pending some serious geologic transformation, there wasn't going to be perfect splitter cracks just appearing out of no where on the King Slab. So, if someone was going to climb it, then it would have to be what it is. Its clearly no bolt ladder. Do you also dislike Hall of Mirrors? Marginal? Should the FAs have had to check with you first if it was ok to climb those routes? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just trying to understand your point of view now that a first-hand account providing a second opinion is available.
Do you think Richard should apologize for not making friends with the 'locals' first? Or is it that you'd like them to apologize for doing an FA on El Cap despite not being locals (reminiscent perhaps of the Ed Cooper and the Dihedral Wall?) Claims that they were 'not ready' or 'incompetent' should now clearly be dismissed given Ammon's reporting, right?
When you mention in an interview in the film that you have limited climbing time and didn't want to waste it climbing the route, I have to assume you yourself believe that statement, but also understand from an outsider's perspective that it sounds odd that someone who has vehemently hated the climb itself and the FAs for 30 years would not want to at least check out if their own feelings were based on fact. If I was as obsessed with a route as you have obviously been with WOS, and I was capable of climbing it, I would have done so or do so now.
I understand and empathize with your desire to keep people from putting up routes in sacred places like Yosemite (or anywhere for that matter) in poor style or in ways that unnecessarily damage the rock or fall too far outside of the prevailing ethic in an area as self-policing seems to for the most part protect a resource best by applying a local user group's first hand knowledge of the best ways to install or avoid fixed protection etc given the available geologic and environmental constraints.
But, in this case, it seems that they used no more enhancements/fixed protection etc than was absolutely necessary to get up the route and in fact it was sparse enough to lead to a high number of falls (some quite long) by one of the greatest aid climbers who has ever lived.
I think the 'saga' is overall pretty silly. (Easy for me to say as I wasn't a participant with all the real time fog of war, feelings, etc.)
But unless we are missing something still at this point, it would seem that the whole controversy amounts to little more than:
a) Outsiders vs. Locals use of a resource
b) Prideful behavior on both sides
c) Conflating a personality conflict between a half dozen people with a community wide frustration/situation (hence the currently refuted comments you made re: SAR's feeling on the matter. Last I checked, the meeting between SAR, M & R, and the disgruntled other climbers resulted in the Park Service and SAR telling the guys to get on with their climb and for everyone else to cool it. So appealing to the community with 'even SAR thought they were doing a botch job, should be left to die, etc, etc, etc' is not only morally and legally reprehensible (see Meaty's and Werner's comments) but also is encouraging group think by appealing to some authority on the subject without it even being the case.)
d) An unpopular route going up on a feature on a largeeee piece of rock that offers similar climbing on everything but that particular feature
e) Human beings by and large enjoy being spectators to drama whether they care or not which party proves to be 'correct' and so are willing to watch this one play out, popcorn in hand
It seems that this is still ongoing is not the result of the community being upset forever but you being upset forever and being very vocal about it.
I'll finish by saying that I attended the Oakdale Festival a few years back and had an absolute blast and thought you did a killer job and am super grateful to you for all of those efforts. Mark and Richard are not people you happen to like. But isn't all of this vehement hand-wringing serving to diminish you in the eyes of the very community that you love so well and work so hard to protect and preserve?
Why not just say, 'I may have gotten it wrong. I still don't like the climb or the fashion they did it in. I think respecting local climbers and the prevailing ethic is something that is important in my values, and I'm not going to be able to see that any other way. I wish the climb didn't exist, but it seems that the rumors I had heard about the style or their competence have been discredited."
You could put that out there, leave it at that and get back to all the great work you do for the community (including creating awesome opportunities for people like me to see luminaries and pioneers of our sport speak about their adventures, etc) and keep your reputation in tact. By all accounts from people that know you, you are a great guy and an amazing climber. Why continue to carry this torch that should have long ago been extinguished?
Either way, I expect to be attacked for stating this opinion as I'm a climbing-nobody, without an impressive resume when it comes to serious Aid climbing on the Big Stone. I also don't know the people involved personally so don't really have the right to comment.
But isn't that the same thing we are seeing here? People who didn't do the route, talking about the route, and talking about the climbers?
If one needed to know the people or the route first hand to have an opinion (which is what this basically amounts to) then why continue to make it the 'drama of the century.'
Ok, end of rant. Just one random guy's unsolicited opinion... I've followed this story as a lurker for a long time and couldn't help but comment.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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I don't think anyone for even a second thinks that SAR would have refused to rescue anyone. Yes, the comments certainly add to the drama, but Even the most distant observer I don't think would ever contemplate YOSAR not responding. So Meaty you can calm yourself. On another note, who knew Avery Tichnor? The guy was a Becom Rock local up here in Washington, and went on to the Valley, but left a legacy of really hard scary climbs at Beacon. What happened to him, and did he do any first ascents in the Valley? Local old timers say he was a might crazy and wild!
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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Post of the thread Al Smith.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 11:44am PT
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Avery Tichnor I believe died from cancer years later?
I could be completely wrong though ....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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b) Prideful behavior on both sides
I talked to Mark and Richard both while this was going on and did NOT see any prideful behavior from them.
They only wanted to go climbing.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
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Al- As I say in the film my issue with these guys is how they have chosen to characterize their activities since these climbs went up. I have been around and around for years with Jensen and Smith about their preparations, goals and methods in doing WOS and it took Ammon and Kait repeating the climb to clear some of these issues up. I am glad that they chose to repeat this climb and report what they found.
Do climbers owe the rest of the community an honest accounting? I think so. Clearly others here do not.
I have read everything that I have been able to find written by Jensen and Smith and it is voluminous and taxing material to wade through as a historian. Most folks will answer simple and direct questions about their activities in an honest and forthright way but not so here.
I have to thank Jeff for including as much of my footage in the film and extras as he chose to do. His film is primarily about his friend Ammon and the WOS discussion is somewhat secondary to that central purpose. What is missing are interviews with the folks that chose to erase the first two pitches and cause the controversy in the first place so Jeff has to fill in the blanks regarding their motivation for doing so.
What has gotten lost in the turf war angle is respect for the resource and traditions of Yosemite big wall climbing. Jensen and Smith had virtually no micro flake hooking or copperheading experience when they started up WOS and no wall experience to speak of having prepared themselves in isolation at the Riverside Quarry and never measured themselves against any established routes consensus rated A3 or above that they have been willing to disclose.
Again some think that this level of preparation is the cool part of this story and others like me see such lack of experience and skill as disgraceful hence the controversy that follows this team and their climbing.
With all of the amazing routes that have been done boldly and well on El Capitan I continue to be amazed that folks just can't get enough of WOS. I know what I need to about these guys from a historian's perspective and so don't waste time wrangling with them having already done so exhaustively.
When I came on the ST years ago, I did so amidst the earnest attempts by Jensen and Smith to revise their history long after the fact. I asked folks clearly at that point to characterize me any way you like but deal with what I am saying and I still maintain that position however controversial this all seems to the casual observer and as harsh I may come across after years of frustration in attempting to extract the truth about these climbs.
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John M
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
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Some things I see..
At 43 minutes of the film Mark says something along the lines of (heavily paraphrased as I'm having trouble with the play back)…. "looking back, I ask myself if there is anything that I did wrong, to create this conflict, and the answer is No).. This is to me very telling in the mentality of Mark as earlier in the film he says that it was probably naive to come to the valley and expect to just be allowed to put up a route on the captain. The statement about it being naive comes at around the 30 minute mark. I'm sorry that I can't be more specific. I'm having a lot of difficulty getting the movie to play back.
In my mind these two statements don't jive. If it was naive, then a mistake was made. Granted making a mistake out of naivety isn't in my opinion as heavy a mistake as say purposely doing something that you know is wrong. But, it is still a mistake. And its this reluctance to admit a mistake that has rubbed people wrong from the very beginning.
At the time Mark was just entering his 20s, as he says in the film. It is fairly typical of 20 year olds to believe fully in themselves and not believe that they have to justify their actions to anyone else. In their minds the rock was public rock, they had the requisite skills, they weren't going to do any harm, and thus they should be allowed to do the route.
That is typical 20 year old thinking. It is, in my mind, the hubris that people reacted to. That 20 year old hubris. Did they have the requisite skills?. Since they pulled it off, that would have to be yes, though an argument could still be made that they got lucky. They have since gone on to climb more and varied things and their skill is in my opinion now more obvious. I could see though, how those in the valley at the time would question their ability to do the route in a proper style without drilling their way up it and would not necessarily just accept the word of two young people.
So I don't have trouble with Steve or others questioning or doubting them at the time. I do have a lot of trouble with how it was done and what was done to them, including many of Steve's comments in more recent times about how they lied about what they did. From what Ammon says, they didn't lie.
But the question has to be asked, what can a group do to stop someone who is determined when the climb is being put up on public property which they have no real control over?
What you end up with is hubris against powerlessness. And the results aren't that surprising considering the age of many involved.
I have one other thought. I wonder if Mark and Richard would have continued and finished the route at the time if they didn't have the push back and pure cussedness in their face at the time. It almost seems to me that they might not have. Just a thought. It would take someone who is very stubborn to put up that route, or very determined. Opposition is one thing that sometimes steels the resolve of 20 year olds. Heavy opposition tends to stop more 20 year olds, but in a rare few, it causes them to become more determined. This was a route that required incredible determination to put up.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
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In terms of visual destruction climbing leaves a pretty hefty toll on the valley. The amount of chalk scarring on the boulders and routes is off the charts. Most of this is permanent damage at this point. So whenever you get upset about a "style",or a route you disagree with, or a bolt or whatever- remember that YOU too are guilty of desecrating the stone.
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Nov 24, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
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In the spring of 1982, I was a very young man visiting Yosemite for the 3rd or 4th time, getting better at climbing, wanting to belong. It was a thrill to get to know people who knew people, and to feel like a part of the scene. One topic of conversation was Wings of Steel and the “losers” who were there, how they didn’t belong, their religion, their lack of skill or experience, etc. Mostly the conversations were about how someone not in the club had the audacity to attempt anything like this. These conversations happened at camp 4, at the deli, at the lodge. I was helping friends haul loads to the base of the Aquarian wall and heard conversations there as well.
With the desire to feel a part of something bigger than myself, I soaked up these conversations. Yet somehow in my heart it didn’t feel quite right. I didn’t do anything to spread the rumors. I doubt I ever said anything bad about those guys. But I didn’t speak up and say that it just didn’t feel right either. Is that any better?
There have been countless threads about WOS and the film. Many say they don’t care and it doesn’t matter. But clearly it does matter. We keep talking about it. Why? Even if they would have drilled, or chipped their way up, they weren’t the first. Even if it was a crappy route, there were others way before them. In the worst case scenario they would have hardly been ground breaking. Why does it come up over and over?
Nietzsche defined master morality and slave morality. Master morality reflects those who bring out the best in others, who don’t let their egos get in the way of seeing the potential in other people. Slave morality reflects our need to bring others down so we feel better about ourselves. As a community we all make choices as to whether we can encourage and support others or whether we can do our best to bring them down. It’s far easier to feel a bond based on hatred than on love. Ultimately our character is more defined by how we treat one another than by what kind of climber we are.
I don’t think it matters that much whether anyone thinks WOS is a good route or not. I think it matters a lot whether we own the choices that we made then and now about how we feel about all the players. Grossman is a mean-spirited, vindictive person at best. At worst, he seems sociopathic to me. I’m sure the SAR people would have participated in a rescue had one been necessary. But many still engaged in slave morality. Why couldn’t they have encouraged these guys to have the best adventure they could have?
I don’t mean to pick on Yosemite, or a certain era. But I think some understanding of why this is important is useful. I would like to think that I belong to a community that encourages each other and brings out the best of us. In the past 30 years that’s mostly been the case. But I do still think about that early summer in 1982 and what it felt like to be part of the herd mentality, what it felt like to not speak up even when I somehow knew better.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
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c wilmot said:
chalk scarring on the boulders and routes is off the charts.
Most of this is permanent damage at this point.
OMFG !!!!
Anyways ...... Steve Grossman did not used chalk as I remember ......
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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What is it about Wings of Steel? No route ever in the history of McTopo has attracted anywhere near the attention. To say that "nobody cares" is the understatement of the century. There are literally THOUSANDS of posts here on this forum concerning it!
I often wonder why I care so. I think it's just because Richard and Mark were treated so badly for so long, and the satisfaction of seeing their resultant vindication. It's not like it's a "great route". But it sure is hard - too hard for me. And I've climbed a few hard ones. ;) I could just be too much of a chickensh|t to set myself up for certain thirty- to fifty-foot falls! Geez, I'm been climbing for 35 years, and my longest whipper was thirty feet, and it's the only long one. I can't imagine doing what Ammon did - poor Kait was so frazzled she wanted to bail. Glad she didn't.
The human part of the story has always been more interesting to me than the climb itself. That the very Sh|tter would return a quarter century later and apologize is huge to me.
I agree with Werner - I do not see Mark and Richard as prideful. In spite of rather a lot of ranting. ;)
In terms of visual destruction - c wilmot - this climb is almost invisible! I had walked by its base countless times to climb other route. You need a good eye to even find the damn thing.
I can't remember if Mark and Richard made the 5th ascent of Sea of Dreams before or after they put up WoS.... anyone recall?
" Grossman is a mean-spirited, vindictive person at best. At worst, he seems sociopathic to me."
Such a thing to say!
And in spite of Dimitri's rantings, I am quite certain I remember Steve speaking of SAR's reluctance to rescue them should they have run into trouble. I wish someone would listen to that bit at the end of the DVD, and give us an accurate quote. Maybe I'll have to find my DVD and listen myself and report back.
"I have one other thought. I wonder if Mark and Richard would have continued and finished the route at the time if they didn't have the push back and pure cussedness in their face at the time. It almost seems to me that they might not have. Just a thought. It would take someone who is very stubborn to put up that route, or very determined. Opposition is one thing that sometimes steels the resolve of 20 year olds. Heavy opposition tends to stop more 20 year olds, but in a rare few, it causes them to become more determined. This was a route that required incredible determination to put up."
I have always believe this - that the opposition and the chopping and sh|tting spurred Mark and Richard on to the level of resolve required to finish a route like this.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
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Thanks, BJ - I missed the weird video reference by Jingy.
Great posts by Al Smith, John M and Mike F.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
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Well, I had hoped that you could just stop, Steve. But no. It's apparently not possible, as defamation is in your nature.
And, as I've said for many years, I won't sit idly by in the face of yet more vomitus....
Again some think that this level of preparation is the cool part of this story and others like me see such lack of experience and skill as disgraceful hence the controversy that follows this team and their climbing.
Clearly we were prepared enough, regardless of whether or not we walked in your mighty footsteps. It's a shock, I know. But, well, there it is.
With all of the amazing routes that have been done boldly and well on El Capitan I continue to be amazed that folks just can't get enough of WOS.
It must indeed be frustrating for you that your "amazing routes" have not gotten CLOSE to the level of coverage that your own spewing about WoS has.
Sadly (and I mean that), you have succeeded in undermining your own credibility to the point that your honestly respectable climbing accomplishments have indeed gotten overshadowed by your frothy-mouthed and now indefensible haranguing.
The answer you are seeking is really quite simple, and it's been handed to you on a silver platter by many of your friends (and former friends, as I happen to know). The answer is: Because you continue to stir the turd even when it becomes increasingly obvious over the years that you don't know what you are talking about, and you never did.
The route awaits a third ascent, Steve, and the climbing community breathlessly awaits YOU to do it!
Oh, right, you can't "waste your valuable climbing time" on experiencing the truth for yourself. What ARE you spending all that "valuable climbing time" doing now, Steve???
LOL... yeah, far better to just keep spewing! Oh, wait, you repeatedly threatened to climb it, but then never did. Then threatened more, but then never did. Then got asked by many when you were going to make good on your publicly-stated plans to "set the record straight," but then you never did. Instead, you just kept spewing.
The spewing has always been the issue. You yourself, and those like you, are the ones that established the place WoS has in history. Ironic, isn't it?
I know what I need to about these guys from a historian's perspective and so don't waste time wrangling with them having already done so exhaustively.
You are NO historian. Period. You have no formal training in it, and your own publicly-obvious biases entirely unfit you for the role.
And isn't "formal training" the thing you keep harping on? I mean, where is your Ph.D. in history? Even an M.A.? Do you HAVE even a B.A.? In what discipline?
How DARE you call yourself a "historian" without having trodden the requisite path to requisite expertise? Isn't this your last big beef with Mark and I? LOL... oh the irony.
Historians bring intentional objectivity into their research and actively seek ongoing peer review. You have NO objectivity and don't even seek it, given your oft-repeated claims that you (and a very few other buds) were the ONLY ones setting the high bar bitd.
You've even bagged on the Bird for not rising to your lofty standard, and you've never been able to integrate the FACT that WoS was done with (by your own lights, such as they are) far less "heavy handed" tactics than many Bridwell routes (as if that is the primary basis for evaluating the quality and value of a route).
Historians actually seek out the best available evidence and publicly revise their statements when further evidence demonstrates their previous perspectives to be wrong. You do not. You got on a band wagon and have stayed on it when virtually everybody else saw the increasing piles of evidence and bailed off of that rickety, POS cart that was headed off the cliff.
But not you! You ride that sucker down like Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove.
And your claims that we engaged in "revisionist history" about our activities is so flagrantly and publicly false that the fact you keep repeating this claim, as though your endless repetition will one day finally validate it, is the surest sign that you have none of the requisite perspective that would make you even minimally qualified to act as a "historian" for the climbing community.
The fact that you post up old articles and so forth makes you at most a librarian.
Historian you are not.
When I came on the ST years ago, I did so amidst the earnest attempts by Jensen and Smith to revise their history long after the fact.
This line is getting so old, and is so obviously a public lie, that I go from just weariness to fresh fury. I have forever resisted what some (and even two attorneys) have repeatedly urged: Sue the jerk for defamation!
The climbing community does not need that sort of thing, so I resist. But, Steve, I'm telling you publicly and formally: lines like that are flat-out defamation and are actionable. Your friends should quickly engage in a fresh round of trying to talk you down and tell you to shut up.
You have been on a bandwagon of unreasonable hatred and lies for decades, and you are now virtually alone in your own last-ditch efforts to vindicate your behavior.
FEEL however you want. I don't care. At this point I honestly just find you pitiful. But your endless attempts at character assassination are defamatory.
Mark and I have been honest and forthright at a level not often seen publicly, because people like YOU have demanded and demanded and demanded!
We have answered questions at a level of detail never before expected of climbers. We have been as transparent and forthright as is humanly possible. And as much as could be expected, the revealed facts have borne our what we have said. But YOU insist on continuing to make assertions about our characters and integrity.
I've learned over the years that I cannot just sit by and "let the truth come out," because that approach only let jerks like you dominate the narrative for decades. No more. So now I will not sit by and let you spew crap again and again like it is fact, and by my silence make it appear to anybody that there is no good answer and that the truth really can't be determined.
There IS a truth here, and it bears no resemblance on any level to the pure garbage you continue to spew.
I asked folks clearly at that point to characterize me any way you like but deal with what I am saying
At this point, in the face of the facts, nobody can figure out WHAT you are saying.
and I still maintain that position however controversial this all seems to the casual observer and as harsh I may come across after years of frustration in attempting to extract the truth about these climbs.
Steve, frankly, you have NEVER been seeking the truth in all of this. You have been seeking solely to vindicate your increasingly precarious perspective IN THE FACE OF THE TRUTH, so that you could justify your own involvement in a decades-long and very systematic defamation campaign.
I'm telling you now and very publicly to stop the defamation that you are alone in continuing. Only YOU continue to publicly engage in character assassination, and only YOU have the temerity to do so in the face of the mountains of evidence opposing your perspective.
I'm totally past it, right up until YOU start stirring the turd afresh. Would YOU simply allow the stink that YOU have created and keep creating to just dissipate?
*
Oh, and just to correct one other ridiculous statement you made in the film, actually we were not "in trouble up there" after we got onto Aquarian Wall (actually at any point). There were no storms by that time. We were very low on food and energy, but we were not even CLOSE to in need of rescue. We had the matter well in hand at all points.
And regarding being "pushed" into Aquarian Wall, again, this is YOUR revisionist history, not fact. Our earliest scoping of the route demonstrated what is quite obvious even with the naked eye: the route's final crack system leads to within 50 feet of Aquarian, and that is where we always intended to end the route. Except for the time it took, the route went exactly as planned. There IS actually a line there, although it is apparently too subtle for your eye. And the whole line leads directly to Aquarian, which is where we went.
You make such statements as part of your endless attempts to paint us as incompetent. But we were not incompetent, and even your "offhanded" statements are false. So, I (yet again) set the record straight.
The reason you can't get the "answers" out of us that you claim to seek, Steve, is that we simply refuse to pander to your distorted and outright false perspective of reality.
Stop defaming us. That is all we have ever asked or sought on these forums. CAN you stop?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 24, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
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FWIW I've done a lot of "training" for my aid climbing in Joshua tree and riverside quarry. I feel like people think "riverside quarry, pfft whatever" but the reality is that the aid routes that Jensen and Smith put up at the quarry are thin, chossy and difficult and (more importantly) on par with the type of aid climbing you'll find in Yosemite.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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Steve shaking hands and apologizing to Mark and Richard would be an effective strategy. As practising Christians, Richard and Mark are 'contractually obligated' to forgive, assuming genuine repentance is offered.
The Sh|tter apologized, and was forgiven. Could Steve do the same? I would bet against it, but I'd love to see it happen, because I believe in forgiveness and reconciliation.
What really struck me in Richard's abnormally short rant, apart from the fact that he should have written "an historian" rather than "a historian", was this:
"The spewing has always been the issue. You yourself, and those like you, are the ones that established the place WoS has in history. Ironic, isn't it?"
This has never occurred to me before!
Had it not been for Steve's endless ranting - first in a textbook about aid climbing where he purported to be some sort of an expert in big wall climbing ethics - and for years and hundreds of posts subsequently here on McTopo, Wings of Steel probably would have faded into the obscurity it probably deserves. {wink}
But instead - it has been BECAUSE of, not in SPITE of, Steve Grossman's false allegations - that Wings of Steel has taken such a place in the history of big wall climbing and El Capitan! [Well, not just Steve, there were a few other meatheads, too] Had it not been for the Detractors, it would have faded into obscurity.
Irony can be very ironic, eh?
Pete Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
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The chalk scarred boulders of the valley indeed look terrible werner- that is undeniable. Climbers tend to overlook their own contribution to the degradation of the valleys natural resources. Also considering how much you got your feathers ruffled over a few trees being cut that will grow back it is more than hypocritical to simply disregard the permanent chalk scar's climbing has left in the valley
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Nov 24, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
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Why so jealous, Steve Grossman?
Maybe that's oversimplifying things, but from my lowly, outsider's perspective, that's what it looks like.
Yikes!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
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c wilmot
Yes you're right .
We the materially condition living entities in our modern world will find no escape ultimately from hypocrisy .......
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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Yikes indeed, Anita! Absolutely hilarious pic!
Hey, how is your leg? I saw some totally gnarly pics on Ammon's injury thread, and I do hope you are past the worst of it now.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Nov 24, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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Nov 24, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
The chalk scarred boulders of the valley indeed look terrible werner- that is undeniable. Climbers tend to overlook their own contribution to the degradation of the valleys natural resources. Also considering how much you got your feathers ruffled over a few trees being cut that will grow back it is more than hypocritical to simply disregard the permanent chalk scar's climbing has left in the valley
Haha.
I was I City of Rocks once and had a conversation with a Ranger on why they weren't allowing the replacement of bolts on some routes that clearly needed them.
" it degrades the historical views that were here when the Oregon/California cutoff went though here. We want to retain the historic aspect."
I pointed out that each bolt would degrade about 1 cubic inch of rock at the most, and they had just dynamited a boulder about the size of a van the day before so that RV's could get to the upper campsite.
My point was not well received.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
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Hi Richard.
Your post is very thoughtful and, as Pete pointed out, brings up some issues I had not considered.
Steve and Mimi are friends of my wife and I, but I truly find it baffling that he refuses to make any concessions or apologies, even in the face of what Ammon and Kate have verified as truth.
Because of this one simple observation - made before your post, but after Steve's - I find even more truth in your succinct observations.
You hit on all the points, and I have to just wonder what is going on with our friend (and one of my climbing heroes for his bold ascents), Steve Grossman.
Why can he not simply say:
"I was wrong, Richard and Mark. I am sorry."
???
Erik
Edit: Even the base rope-shitter apologized and came clean - WTF?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
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MisterE, thank you for your post and observations. Your most pressing point (imho) was: "... I have to just wonder what is going on with our friend (and one of my climbing heroes for his bold ascents), Steve Grossman."
I have heard that same question from so many people now, and I am honestly saddened that this is how it is playing out. A guy like Steve should be able to enter old age with an untainted legacy, given all that he HAS accomplished. I bear him NO ill will even now, seriously. But I will continue to vigorously respond to his defamation and wish that he would at least give it up.
And if he could ever get so far as a genuine and public apology, I am positive that a whole pile of people here on ST would cheer him on, myself included. It takes more guts to do that sort of thing than any climb ever done in human history, and I would applaud that more than any climb!
I'm not going to speculate on his motivations spanning decades. But at some point you admit you were wrong, you apologize, and everybody moves on. He would find me instantly ready to let the past be past. We all make mistakes, sometimes really boneheaded ones; it's the human condition. None of us live in an epistemically privileged position. So I would be happy to grant Steve his own boneheaded moments, as we all have them, and let it all go.
And there's nothing "gracious" or "magnanimous" about my saying that. I am serious about the human condition. I have needed charity myself many times, so it is my honor to offer it to another who is in need of it. But until then, please do urge your friend to "just stop it!" This really has gotten beyond ridiculous.
Edit: Sorry, I missed your name at first, Erik. I really appreciate all you had to say.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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When some people are backed into a corner, they just reflexively fight back to the death, as a basic survival mechanism. If you grow up in deadly circumstances- whether real or perceived, emotional or physical- that fighter autopilot reaction is good to have. The problem is, most real life circumstances aren't like that, so a significant amount of emotional deprogramming is required to create space for rational reactions to normal situations.
I do have compassion for the fact that people with emotional scars of this type have a huge and terrifying obstacle to overcome, to get to a place where reason-driven rather than emotion-driven actions are possible. Most of us don't consciously consider how hard it is. So hard that it makes the most grim routes on El Cap seem easy in comparison, and may in fact have led to their creation.
That said, I'm sure many people on this forum, myself definitely included, have experienced some sort of trauma that is deep enough to create deeply ingrained auto-pilot reactions that may have served us at some point, but hurt us now. It takes a lot of effort to get over this stuff. And these myriad weaknesses form a common thread, nay, a web between us, something we can all recognize in ourselves and in others. At some point we just accept it and laugh it off and try our best to get over it, knowing that whenever we point fingers at others we truly are pointing at ourselves.
Except for the odd Canadian, Euro, Asiatic, Kiwi, Australian or islander, we are all Stupid Americans.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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I keep reading this thread for the pure entertainment value it offers. Like me, anybody who was actually around the Valley at the time is now an old fossilized toothless tiger. So what I'm getting here is we have a bunch of old suburbanite white senior citizens who, inexplicably, are still messed up by this horrifically traumatizing event. Well, alrighty then.
Just for the record, I really do still felch dead people. Just sayin'.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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Awesome page, keep it up!
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
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Refresh my memory.
Why is it that Grossman didn't do the climb to demonstrate the better style?
I will cite Robbins chopping bolts on the Dawn wall, then deciding he made a mistake.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:06pm PT
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Wall of Squalor.....courtesy, the shitters.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
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There was only one shitter, Jim.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
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strong posts Al_Smith and Mike Friedrichs...
historian, eh?
oh the irony in the following grossman sentiment: "Again some think that this level of preparation is the cool part of this story and others like me see such lack of experience and skill as disgraceful"
what is the preparation, the experience, and the skills that grossman has undertaken and fostered in order to be worthy of the title "historian"?
to anybody with any experience in/with academia, it is quite evident that while he may be a collector, he is too emotionally involved to be anything remotely deserving of the title historian...
which is a shame, really... because it is also quite obvious that his direct action-based contributions to climbing verge on the impeccable...
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
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Hey, Meaty... No disrespect.... I count for very little in this world, let alone this board... you can pull back the claws, I am nobody and I know it. Don't make my written word into anything it ain't.
not one person on SAR said anything like that around me
...and therefore not one person could have possibly had stated anything like it. SAR 'is' a better ind of human being. SAR is above all that ego stuff.
You didn't experience it, therefore it didn't happen?
This is the same kind of centrism that has me calling people names... This would be like saying "I climbed with the best people, they would never chop anyone's bolts unless it was for a really, really good reason, therefore, no climbers ever chopped bolts on routes they didn't put up for bad reasons. No'm'sain?
But, I heard the dude say it in the movie I watched... so did you if you watched the movie I watched. The movie I watched is posted to Hulu.
Plus... I'm so far outside the fight... (It was happening in the eighty's... I was coming into adolescence)... why would you need to point out this nobody named Jingy for this... What stake do you have in this fight Meaty? And how much of an opponent do you see me as? I am nobody.
I know that we have ideals... all over the place... we would like to believe a ton of stuff about the selfless goodness of SAR personnel. and those surrounding them...
I'd say that SAR speaks for itself by saving lives... not by what they say on the ground... right? But what if the person that was sent to save your lives didn't really have that as their first goal? What then? What do you say then?
I am nobody
P.S. I am no better and no worse than anyone else. I may have less resource with which to solve the worlds problems, and honestly I have none of the mind to put anything into action that would help even slightly.
Please don't make anything I write into something that it is not... meaningful or carrying any weight.
BTW - I certainly can have an opinion on anything I read or hear on the subject and will not hesitate to write it here...
The sentiment that I heard in that video is the lowest of humanity.
And with the second ascent, Mark and Richard step into the a different picture than many have tried to paint around them and their ascent.
At this point I side with Mark and Richard, and firmly against those who wished ill on them during that period of time. It's not like I can make up for anything, but on principal I feel I am right. Climbers were behaving like ridiculous, petty, animals and not like strong open-minded climber types.
Further Reader Edit:
But unless we are missing something still at this point, it would seem that the whole controversy amounts to little more than:
a) Outsiders vs. Locals use of a resource
b) Prideful behavior on both sides
c) Conflating a personality conflict between a half dozen people with a community wide frustration/situation (hence the currently refuted comments you made re: SAR's feeling on the matter. Last I checked, the meeting between SAR, M & R, and the disgruntled other climbers resulted in the Park Service and SAR telling the guys to get on with their climb and for everyone else to cool it. So appealing to the community with 'even SAR thought they were doing a botch job, should be left to die, etc, etc, etc' is not only morally and legally reprehensible (see Meaty's and Werner's comments) but also is encouraging group think by appealing to some authority on the subject without it even being the case.)
d) An unpopular route going up on a feature on a largeeee piece of rock that offers similar climbing on everything but that particular feature
e) Human beings by and large enjoy being spectators to drama whether they care or not which party proves to be 'correct' and so are willing to watch this one play out, popcorn in hand
That about sums things up for me, perfectly.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
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There was only one shitter, Jim.
Oh yes the Magic-Shitter theory. A single high-velocity sh|t somehow hit and smeared their ropes then traveled up 1200 feet, weeks later, and exploded above the climbers.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
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^^Uh-oh. Well played, the Fet - luckily I can still edit my post to "base rope-shitter". Thanks for your timely post!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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Yikes! I forgot about the bombs from above!! Well played!
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
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"And in spite of Dimitri's rantings, I am quite certain I remember Steve speaking of SAR's reluctance to rescue them should they have run into trouble."
One more time Pete....no one on the SAR site said anything even remotely close, no one, you can't name anyone on the SAR site that stated that because no one on the SAR site said it....but it makes for good hype to sell this dreadfully silly movie you cherish like a lemming.
Again, you can't name anyone on SAR that said they wouldn't rescue those two....Steve was not on SAR at the time.
Jingy, for you to equate some nasty a$$ white supremacist with people working SAR is just absurd. What you heard in that movie is a pack of lies, no one on the SAR site said anything of the kind.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
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Dimitri,
What do you mean I can't name anyone who said it?
STEVE SAID IT - in the movie! Watch the movie! Watch the interview with Steve at the end!
I think Dimitri must be trolling me. His statement is illogical. Just because someone does not hear something, does not mean it was not said.
You ARE joking, right, Dimitri? Because you've seen the movie, right? And you've seen the interview with Steve at the end that requires looking at a separate section of the DVD, where Steve says precisely this. The part that didn't make it into the main section of the movie, but in the "appendix" thing. [someone help me here...]
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
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I remember that part of the movie and thinking "wow, that's harsh". And I must have replayed it. If I remember right his point was more that people were so incensed they talked about not wanting to rescue them, not that they'd actually do it. I remembered thinking that could easily be taken the wrong way, which it seems it was.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
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No one on SAR said they wouldn't rescue those two, no one. Just an absurd assertion to say the least.
You two are pretty dense...eh?
When you come up with a name let me know.
Also in one of the trailers for the movie those two claim they were surrounded and threatened with violence, just another flat out lie.
They throw victim cards, Pete, Fet and so many others are fooled.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
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^^ Yes, Dimitri - I suppose you're right. I must have been mistaken.
Sorry, buddy.
Edit for John below: Steve does use first person plural pronoun when referring to SAR
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John M
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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was Steve a member of SAR at the time?
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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JohnM.....no he was not.....I was and no one on the SAR site said that.
Steve was not on the SAR site during that time...nope.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
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^^ It sounds from the above quote rather like Steve was.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
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So it would seem Meaty, that the issue is not as much that people believe that SAR said those things, it's that Grossman in his role as Historian is saying that SAR said those things. You say they did not. Thus, if we accept your word, the issue is not whether SAR said those things, but whether we are to believe Grossman when he says that those things were said.
In that light, one no longer needs to say that SAR didn't say those things because the issue changes to that one would need to say that Grossman is lying when he said that those involved with SAR said those things.
OR
we can go back to saying that it's possible for a group of people to have conversations between smaller subsets of the larger group that every single member of that larger group would not be privy to.
but now I'm starting to get snarky, so I'll sign off for the night.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
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Also in one of the trailers for the movie those two claim they were surrounded and threatened with violence, just another flat out lie.
So, let me see what you are really saying here, and please let me know which of these options is correct. "Richard and Mark are flat out lying about the threatened violence, and...."
1) I know this because I know Richard and Mark personally and know that they are liars.
2) I know this because I traveled everywhere with Richard and Mark during every second of their time in the Valley, so I know all of the incidents and encounters they went through first-hand, and there was no such encounter that I observed first-hand.
3) I know this because I have talked to every person who interacted with Richard and Mark during their time in the Valley, and I know that none of those people would ever lie, and all of them told me that they never threatened violence as Richard and Mark say.
There are other possibilities, I'm sure, but please enlighten us about exactly how you know that we are lying about this claim.
Regarding your own "victim mentality," please provide one shred of evidence of our knowing who you are and of accusing you personally of anything.
Actually, here are the facts about you relative to the whole WoS saga:
1) I didn't know your name until somebody up thread associated your name with your ST handle (and I still have only that to go on).
2) I didn't recognize your name prior to that, so I have no awareness of any aspect of your involvement in the saga.
3) Your name appears nowhere in our notes nor in the original book manuscript (that included names).
4) I had no idea you were part of SAR at that time, nor could I possibly pick you out of a line-up.
5) You certainly are no "big name" climber that I should recognize by name, nor were you at the time of WoS.
6) Thus, given all of the above, you were then and are now entirely irrelevant to the story.
7) Your only "contribution" to any WoS thread has been comparable to what we see in this one, namely: personal frothing and moaning to call attention to yourself, when, really, you are (see above) irrelevant to the story.
8) When SG says on video that discussions among SAR people literally included floating the idea of doing nothing to help (not that help was even close to needed), HE and nobody else is the ONE making that claim about SAR. So if you feel affronted, threatened, offended, or any other synonym for butthurt, you should take it up with the ONE who said it, not with anybody else on this thread.
9) Actually, it was not John Dill, Mike Durr, or SAR that gave us a pass to just continue with the route. In actual fact (documented) we fought our way up the ranger hierarchy (facing very active resistance ever step for a solid month) until we reached the head day ranger, John Daley. Daley had heard the story, talked with us for over an hour, got furious as he heard what we had been going through, and said that HE would put an end to the whole harassment (including the fact that the Camp 4 rangers were raising our camping rates beyond those of anybody else, which is, again, documented). It was ONLY when John Daley put the hammer down from above that John Dill and particular members of SAR backed off, and then the harassment took the form strictly of bombing runs from above from other routes. To my knowledge, you were irrelevant to all of those events as well.
In short, to my knowledge, you are irrelevant both by name and by activity. Of course, perhaps you were more relevant than I know. Were you among those bombing us from above?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:50pm PT
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John Dill, Mike Durr, the camp4 campground ranger and sar team all were behind this?
I never went to the meeting in the sar cache after talking to you guys.
What happened in there?
Dimitri, did you go to that meeting?
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John M
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:54pm PT
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Is it a matter of definitions? An official member of SAR, versus someone who has been used on SAR rescues. I don't really know the situation.
I agree with what Werner said earlier. I have zero doubt that Yosar would go no matter what. I also don't doubt that some hotheads said some inappropriate things or that when faced with someone like Werner, they would have backed down from their statements and calmed down and gone and done what needed to be done, if a rescue was called for. I even fully believe that Steve would have gone. Its one thing to be upset and say things. Its another thing entirely to be faced with someone in need and refuse to go just because you are pissed at what they are doing.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
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Yes Werner, I did in fact go to that meeting.
Madbolt is full of it with his accusations regarding Dill, Durr etc, just delusional!! Madbolt whined about me at that meeting in the previous threads, so he's lying when he says he doesn't know who i am.
Warren Harding told me those two chumps had told him I was the shitter....now he claims I m irrelevant and he didn't know I was on SAR....he's lying, again.
What he doesn't know about is my conversation with Daley, very relevant.
Being called the shitter for 30 years and then defending myself is relevant, funny how you can't grasp that fact madbolt.
As far as the 'big name climber' bulltripe....YAWN!!!
"...you were then and are now entirely irrelevant to the story."
Sorry, jackwipe......you've whined about me for years, called me the shitter for decades.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
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I always thought all these years the shiter was Chesko.
I had no clue until I read it here on this forum.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
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Me too for a long time until SwillyRuzzle told me who it was.
And of course there wasn't any talk about not performing a rescue for those two, in fact many wanted a rescue. As you said above Werner, it's not up to the SAR climbers who gets rescued.
A video clip with Steve making that ridiculous assertion is somehow proof it was a conversation among the SAR climbers, it's absurd!!
Also,.... the lie those two were surrounded and threatened is as hollow as it was the last time.....they throw victim cards like confetti.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:05pm PT
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I might have to stay up for this. I even opened another beer.
Dimitri - did you listen to the video clip where Steve says there was lots of talk about SAR not rescuing those guys? Can you process the logic of j-tree's arguments presented to you above?
Can you please relate your relevant conversation with Mr. Daley?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
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Mike Durr Good blast from the past.
I knew his wife.
She was totally rad.
My question is:
Why the FA feels the need to justify their efforts so much?
Movies, interviews etc "thou protesteth too much"
That ain't how it ever been done in the ditch.
Never has been.
I see it as weak.
The route maybe the best ever, but whimpering and complaining gets you nuth IMO.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
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Jingy, for you to equate some nasty a$$ white supremacist with people working SAR is just absurd. What you heard in that movie is a pack of lies, no one on the SAR site said anything of the kind.
No.. You are right.
I am wrong.
good day sir
did you click play on the video above that show a proclaimed climbing historian saying that there was exactly that talk going around at the time, that if they needed help.... we would let them meet their end up there.
Magic-Shitter theory. In the film we see the head cocks
back... and to the left...
back... and to the left...
back... and to the left...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
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Jingy...there was no talk among those of us on the SAR site related to Steve's assertion....just didn't happen.
It indeed helps sell a lame movie of hype, whine and lies.... that's about sums it up. The dumbest climb in Yosemite history.
Here's another lie from madbolt:
"4) I had no idea you were part of SAR at that time"
The lies and whine never end from these two schmucks, especially the hollow lies regarding physical threats, just pure fantasy.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
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No.. You are right.
I've said this before.
Obviously Steve was talking out his ass when he said the contrary.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
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Thanks Jingy, I've got no beef with you....except for postnig that lame video and not being able to listen to another side of the story, that's OK . I don't judge you for taking sides or whatever, but posting that video and trying to further use the lie those of us on SAR would refuse to rescue those two is just beyond silly. I just remember you and eurobriefguy Steve having fun in Bishop, poker nights with Fish etc....good times!!
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John M
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
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Obviously Steve was talking out his ass when he said the contrary.
Or he was talking about those loosely related to SAR, such as himself. Ie.. have gone on SARs when the call goes out for help, but aren't officially a member of Yosar.
just my 2 cents. I can't speak for Steve
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
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For now, I'll just ignore you, Meaty. I've learned that that is the best possible approach to apparent insanity.
Werner, however, asks legitimate questions and is relevant:
John Dill, Mike Durr, the camp4 campground ranger and sar team all were behind this?
No, I certainly would not put it that way! John Dill and Mike Durr always treated us with a sort of "distant courtesy," while at the same time trying to negotiate a "treaty" with the really inflamed SAR members. They suggested various things such as, "Why don't you guys go do something like Dihedral Wall, which would show the guys that you are competent, and it would also give you a bird's eye view of how blank that slab really is?"
The very fact that they were negotiating in such a way indicates the extent to which SOME (I emphasize SOME) SAR members were front-runners in the controversy. Dill in particular clearly had the idea that if we could appease some of his guys the whole controversy would go away.
Also, there was not just one "SAR meeting." There were several, and they included variously: John Dill, Mike Durr, and this or that SAR-site person. In these smaller meetings the tone was much more, shall we say, subdued than it was in the "one" meeting to which everybody refers.
My "take" at that time was that John Dill and Mike Durr were not "actively encouraging" any harassment of us. But they also both repeatedly made it clear that they sided with those SAR members that were affronted. They kept urging us that the root of the problem was us, not the affronted SAR guys. They kept telling us that the problem was ours to resolve, and they had various suggestions of how WE should solve it. So there definitely was a very passive aggression on their part, and the lines were quite clearly drawn.
Werner, I very much appreciate your sensitivity to having SAR in any way linked to the harassment, and I would not cast it that way. SAR as an organization is amazing and highly professional. But there definitely were particular SAR members who utilized their positions of credibility to float a version of reality that was largely responsible for the broad-scale harassment and then ongoing defamation that followed.
So, no, "SAR" was not "behind it," but there certainly were varying degrees of "complicity" in the leadership, even if only in the form of passive aggression, and the offending SAR members were NOT actively reined in until John Daley got involved.
Daley told us, "This sort of thing will NOT go on here! I will talk to my rangers, and I'm going over to Camp 4 now to talk to those guys and inform them very clearly that they enjoy many privileges in exchange for their services, and I will instantly remove those privileges and even start booting some of them out of here if any more of this goes on. You guys have every right to climb your route, and nobody under me is going to harass you for exercising that right."
And, voila'! After that day, except for the on-route bombings and a lot of ongoing verbiage (that ultimately lasted decades), the physical threats and the meetings with Dill, Durr, and SAR evaporated.
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John M
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
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I have a question for you Richard.
If people believe someone doesn't have the experience to do something, and this lack of experience could cause them to need rescue, or perhaps bend the rules and start deciding that this wall is blank and thus justify a bolt ladder or chipping, as was done on another route on the Capitan.. . if people believed this, then what can they do? Especially if the person isn't listening to reason. Do you just let them go do it? I'm asking because I'm wondering if you can understand why these people were so upset and why they wouldn't just take your word for it that you were experienced and wouldn't put up a crap route or a chipped route. Plus I am interested in your state of mind at the time. I wrote something a few pages back and I am wondering about your take on it. I am not in any way defending the things like the shitting. I am talking about why people were upset. Not how they handled it. Plus.. what one should do in a case like this. Mark at one point in the video said that he could see how it was naive what y'all did, but then he went on to contradict himself and say that he thought that you guys did nothing wrong. So which is it? Was it naive, and if so, then why didn't you listen to your elders? And do you blame them for being upset, or just for how they dealt with their feelings? What is, in your understanding, the proper way to deal with something like this?
I'm just asking. I'm really not trying to start an argument. This is interesting to me.
( its late, I'm heading to bed in a few.. so no hurry )
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 25, 2014 - 02:15am PT
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I'm just asking. I'm really not trying to start an argument. This is interesting to me.
I'm gonna head to bed after this also, but I wanted to answer before your questions fade into obscurity on this thread (and in my own mind).
And, for the record, I saw your earlier post but had no interest in jumping into this thread until Steve's post. At this point I'm "dragged in," and I'm happy to respond to you.
I'm going to break your paragraph up into bite-sized pieces. Perhaps Pete will even accuse me of another too-long post. Sigh.
If people believe someone doesn't have the experience to do something, and this lack of experience could cause them to need rescue, or perhaps bend the rules and start deciding that this wall is blank and thus justify a bolt ladder or chipping, as was done on another route on the Capitan.. . if people believed this, then what can they do?
Well, a bunch of hot-headed climbers in their 20s do not naturally provide the best context for thoughtful dialog, so I guess that the lack of it should come as no surprise.
But your question as posed seems to presuppose that this sort of questioning dialog process WAS pursued, particularly prior to when things were already escalated past the point of no return.
It was not. By the time of the first SAR meeting, our ropes had already been cut down, we were already feeling great physical danger, and we even had bathroom-wall graffiti directed at us and urging our slaughter (no phone cameras at that time, or I would have pictures).
"Dialog" was non-existent, and the SAR meeting was not well-handled so as to provide an actual venue for dialog.
So, the idea that these guys had some legitimate basis for their beliefs on the foundation of productive and charitable dialog is right out the window. By the time of any "dialog," the lines in the sand were already drawn.
Now, regarding the actual content of their beliefs, well, about that I have no sympathy. Sorry, but by the time the sh|t really hit the fan (in the absence of dialog), we had two pitches up. PLENTY of people now can attest to the FACT that those two pitches ALONE demonstrated that we CLEARLY knew what we were doing, that the route was NOTHING as it was being cast, and that the odds of our needing a rescue were no greater than anybody else's.
ANYBODY at that time could walk up to the base and see the story. But they didn't. Or they walked up and saw what they wanted to see.
ANYBODY could see with the naked eye (even better with a pair of binoculars) that what we were saying about the route was true. They couldn't be bothered to do that.
ANYBODY could have taken us up on our offer to jug our lines, as we offered to even take them up there and SHOW what we were doing. The first time anybody jugged the lines was at night and with a chopping already determined.
They preferred instead to gather around us in threatening groups and yell at us, even as we tried to reason with them: "Look, just go look at it. It is not a bolt ladder. The hooking goes; it's natural! There's even quite a bit of free climbing on it. Just hike up and LOOK! Jug our lines!"
What I don't think you are really getting is the extent to which a mob mentality had already taken over. And there were three guys who packed the power keg and then put the match to it. They know who they are.
Finally, regarding them being upset about being forced to take risks on a rescue, I honestly think that is a specious argument.
In a pure nanny-state, okay. But in the United States, in a public, national park... uhh... no.
If you want to be on SAR, you takes your chances, as the saying goes. Perhaps one day it will be some goofball wading too close to the edge of a falls. Perhaps one day it will be some team trying to speed-climb El Cap when weather moves in. You rescue who needs it, regardless of "competency," and the bar to show incompetency is pretty high, as it should be.
The only way your argument flies is if it is even POSSIBLE to assess rescue-risk with some degree of certainty in advance of an event. And it is just too easy to come up with countless counter-examples to that idea. The most competent teams have been rescued. And at the other end of the scale (lol), Mark and I didn't need rescue (despite a pretty horrific Pacific storm that dropped a lot of snow in early July).
You simply cannot preemptively decide who climbs and who doesn't on the basis of "beliefs" about "competency." You're on SAR? Then you rescue who needs it. End of story. That's actually the selfless heroism of the role!
Neither their beliefs (which had no rational foundation, given the facts that were clearly there to be seen by the naked eye!), nor the argument from those beliefs to the decision about who gets to climb and who doesn't have merit.
By the way, I'm writing in a philosophical tone, and I don't mean to sound provocative. I certainly understand why you would ask the questions the way you do. I'm just responding as objectively as I can, which can come across very "forthrightly." My saying that a particular argument doesn't have merit in no way implies that YOU don't have merit. I hope that makes sense!
Especially if the person isn't listening to reason.
See above. There was no "reasoning" involved by the time things really blew up. And by then, the battle lines were drawn, and we were just trying to get onto the wall and away from it all (silly us, thinking that the wall would be safe).
The version of reality that a few still try to float goes like this:
Jensen and Smith as "inexperienced kids" show up and start drilling up the Great Slab. We locals get really concerned! Are they going to hurt themselves? Are they trashing El Cap? Are we going to be called upon to rescue them, when a rescue COULD be avoided in advance?
So, we start talking with Jensen and Smith, and we discover from our dialog efforts that they have no El Cap experience, that one of them has zero big wall experience, and that the odds are dramatically high that they are completely clueless. We try to "reason with them," but they are hot-headed, inexperienced kids that "will not listen to reason."
So, we start being more insistent! "Look, you guys are going to get yourselves in a lot of trouble if you continue. There's a lot of us here that are very concerned on many levels, and we would really like you to back down until you can demonstrate that you are competent to do this! We're really trying to save you from yourselves!" But the two inexperienced goofballs will not "listen to reason."
So, we start getting VERY insistent, including bringing the rangers into it. We have a big meeting with the SAR leadership, and the two goofballs are just unresponsive to our attempts to "reason with them." Now, some of us are starting to get really mad about this. Not ALL of us, mind you. But SOME.
Sadly, SOME guys went over the top, but how far they went over, well, really nobody knows. Jensen and Smith now claim a lot of things that cannot be verified. We do know about the chopping, and that was surely an unfortunate incident. But don't paint ALL of us with that brush. Only a few were involved in that. And beyond that, all most of us did was try to dialog. But Jensen and Smith would never "listen to reason." So, you see, there was solid reason to believe that they were entirely incompetent; some of us continue to believe that to this very day! In a very fundamental way, Jensen and Smith really brought this all down on themselves.
THAT is a fairly good summary of the "line" that a few still try to float. It has little if any resemblance to reality.
There never was a dialog. There was only screaming and yelling and threats from the MOMENT that Corbett, Paul, and Cole started monitoring us from Cosmos. Mike Paul has since apologized to me very profusely, but Corbett and Cole never have. From that encounter onward, the rumors spread like wildfire, and we never got a "hearing" of any sort until that first SAR meeting (if that can be called a "hearing").
So, there was nothing like "listening to reason" in their approach to us. The sh|t literally hit the fan before there was even the slightest attempt at "reasoning." And then, the ones not listening to reason were our opponents, as we urged again and again, "Just walk up and LOOK at it! It is NOT what you are saying. Jug our lines and LOOK!"
So, no, I have exactly zero sympathy for the whole "listen to reason" line that it is convenient to float now. Anybody TODAY can hike up and look at what they WOULD have seen if they could have been "upset" enough to do so. And ANY unbiased eye can SEE what is there and KNOW that we could not be the bumbling, incompetent goofballs that we were cast as from the start of the whole mess.
Do you just let them go do it? I'm asking because I'm wondering if you can understand why these people were so upset and why they wouldn't just take your word for it that you were experienced and wouldn't put up a crap route or a chipped route.
See above. No I have no sympathy for it, because the actual facts just don't bear out that whole "reality." You can hike up to the base at ANY time and see for yourself that the first two pitches are NOTHING like a "crap route" or a "chipped route" or a "bolt ladder" or "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute" or ANYTHING like what we were accused of putting up. And we offered to let anybody jug our lines. You can inspect pretty dang closely from the lines!
Also, one advantage of that slab is that from the ground, particularly with binoculars, you can SEE what we did for hundreds of feet. There are no corners to hide atrocities. Our bolts and rivets are clear to the naked eye, and the run-outs are crystal clear. You can scour the thing for chipping, and you won't see any. It is OBVIOUS that the route is what WE said it was, not how they intentionally painted it to arouse the mob.
Forget "dialog!" Just go LOOK at the thing and see if a "reasonable" mind can conclude that we were incompetent and needed to be put down.
Furthermore, back to my argument about freedom and national parks, NOBODY gets to single any particular route out for "special enforcement!" Let's say that we WERE putting up a bolt ladder. That still justifies NOTHING about how we were treated, and it would not justify special enforcement on the part of the NPS. We are entitled to EQUAL protection under the law, and the LAW has nothing to say about "a drilled placement every 22.3 feet is acceptable 'destruction of public property,' while a drilled placement every 15 feet is unacceptable."
There is no legal or moral reason to have singled us out for special condemnation, even if we WERE doing everything we were accused of. To address such atrocities, you do something like what I did with "Look Out! Weak Sauce!" and you CLIMB the damned thing, leading it, and document what you found. Then you write about it and address whether or not crossing "this line" is acceptable and within the range of what WE the climbing COMMUNITY is going to call "climbing."
There are "lines," but they are fluid and not ENFORCEABLE! You can go after a climber's sponsors. You can call them out in writing (when you can PROVE what they have actually done, and you address strictly and only the FACTS). And peer pressure has a lot of power, actually. Every climber values respect among their set of peers, so you can put a lot of pressure on behavior via non-violent "calling out" by peers, saying, "THIS we do not respect!" Again, your "calling out" had BETTER be based on demonstrable facts, or it is legally defamation!
But there is NO basis legally or morally for "enforcement" of a merely PERCEIVED "problem" at all! And that response is even more outrageous in the face of the contravening FACTS that are there for anybody to hike up and see for themselves.
Plus I am interested in your state of mind at the time. I wrote something a few pages back and I am wondering about your take on it.
Yes, you wrote about how you perceived an incompatibility in what Mark says in the video, how he in one place says that he wouldn't do anything substantively differently, yet in another place he says that we were "naive."
I agree with Mark that we were naive in a fundamental way. Contrary to what some have tried to float, we were WELL up on the sorts of ethics and controversies in Yosemite climbing history. We took it seriously; we were honestly prepared to bail the route if the fourth pitch had gone as the third did. But our naivety went to things like the civil exchanges and the pretty high level of reasoning that went into the writing of the Robbins, Harding, Bridwell era just prior to us.
We thought that we would not make a "splash" and that any interested people would honestly evaluate what we were doing, that they would quickly see that we weren't doing anything outside the norm, and that we were actually doing something pretty cool with hooking that hadn't been seriously tried before on a grand scale, like a whole route dependent on it. We did not imagine a full-blown turf-war, which is what the whole thing REALLY was!
In the forward to my book, Harding calls it nothing more than "dogs pissing on trees," and our naivety was that we just didn't think of the climbing community as composed of enough such people to be any problem.
Regarding not changing anything, Mark is referring to our behaviors. He is referring to the idea that we supposedly "should" have "proved ourselves" to the "Valley locals" prior to assuming that we had any "right" to try the route. He is referring to the idea that we "should" have "initiated dialog" in some way. What would that even have looked like???
Here we go.... We walk into Camp 4 and start asking, "We're new here, and we'd like to find some 'locals' to talk to about a new route we're planning to do on El Cap. Can anybody direct us to some 'locals,' because we want to pay some dues before we imagine that we're 'worthy' to get started?"
Ridiculous, of course! And on countless levels. But its very ridiculousness reveals the multitude of problems with the whole presupposition!
As Harding said to me repeatedly: "I am THE 'Valley local,' and I would have cheered you guys on."
And the whole IDEA of a "Valley local" already begs the question!
If you agree that the SAR guys are the closest thing to "locals," then you admit that SAR was "behind it," as Werner asks. But if you agree that even THEY are not 'locals,' as there really is no such thing in a NATIONAL park, then you admit that there was no particular set of people that had to "sign off" on our ascent. The NPS certainly has not made those sorts of decisions, so there was no going to the NPS in advance for "approval."
WHO, exactly, do you initiate dialog WITH, and WHY??? The whole idea that we had some responsibility to "prove ourselves" first utterly begs the question.
We naively thought that if somebody questioned what we were doing, we would DISCUSS it with them. And now, in hindsight, it's EASY to say, "Oh, maybe we could have initiated a conversation with Corbett first," or some such thing. In the end, though, knowing the personalities as we do, it's clear that there was NOTHING we could have done differently to suggest some different outcome.
Just look at Grossman's personality and approach to this, in the very face of all the evidence, and tell me how we were going to "reason this out" with guys who have had their minds made up from the first moment.
So, our "state of mind" started out naively believing in a Robbins/Harding-era sort of dialog with any interested parties. Beyond that, we thought we would just keep our heads down, not cause a splash, and just do out thing--ALWAYS with the values of what "climbing" even IS guiding our behaviors on the route. I repeat, we almost bailed after the third pitch, and we would have bailed had the fourth gone the same way. We CARED very much about putting up a good, solid route. We CARED about what "climbing" means and what drives people to test themselves on hard climbs. Our own goal was to test ourselves, and we knew what that meant.
I am not in any way defending the things like the shitting. I am talking about why people were upset. Not how they handled it.
Yes, people were upset. So what? Being upset is nothing special. I get upset ALL the time! I mean it... there are SO many things about our present society that upset me. Big deal. Grow up. Get over it. I sort things through, see if there's anything worth my efforts to actually deal with, and make productive decisions. The "upsetness" is a data point; nothing more. (Of course, that maturity and perspective is not natural to a 20-something. But, come on... their level of "upset" was far beyond what the evidence could even begin to sustain.)
Now, all that said, it is NEVER my desire to upset people myself, if it can reasonably be avoided. And I think that's the question you are really asking, something like: "Do you understand (and would you change anything) about how your actions caused people to be upset?"
THAT is indeed a very interesting question. But it has to be parsed out carefully.
First, I don't believe that MOST people ever got upset based upon what WE did. That is a point that cannot be overemphasized! Let me explain....
We had FOREIGN climbers bombing us from Aquarian Wall! They had never met us. They had never seen the route. They were "upset" strictly and entirely because of what they had HEARD. WE did not upset them, and that is true of the vast, vast majority of what became the herd!
So, the real question you are asking is: "Do you understand why a tiny group of 'locals' were upset, and do you take ANY responsibility for making them upset?" After all, the "locals" are the ones that started the herd mentality that became pervasive. So THEY are the ones we're really talking about.
Alright, let me ask it this way: "Is there something I should be doing now to have Steve Grossman no longer upset with me?" If there is, I have NO idea what it would be that would also maintain my personal integrity.
Just as Grossman is presently ENTIRELY responsible for his own emotional reactions to the evidence that is before him, the "locals" are entirely responsible for their own emotional reactions to the evidence that was before them.
The first two pitches were THERE, you have to remember, by the time there was ANY attempt at "dialog." Prior to that, as people would gather around us in groups yelling and threatening us, we urged them: "Look! Just look at it! The ropes are hanging there, so jug the lines if you want and LOOK at what is there!"
The mob mentality, based entirely upon Harding's prescient statement, "dogs pissing on trees" is ALL there is to the "upsetness." There is nothing more lofty than that, and I have to thank Grossman for making that more and more clear every time he opens his mouth or puts fingers to keyboard. All the "ethics" and "concern" were a smokescreen to justify nothing more than dogs pissing on trees. And I simply won't "compromise" to "build bridges" on the basis that there was ANYTHING justifiable in the "local's" emotional responses. The evidence was THERE, we tried to get them to look at it, but they had already decided. And that remains true even today, although the numbers have greatly dwindled.
There HAVE been some real MEN who have seen through their own responses and have realized HOW wrong they were. These men, like Mike Paul and Steve, have apologized very profusely and have called it for what it was. Steve even explicitly calls it a "mob mentality." THEY can see it for what it was, and THEY were right IN it at the time. THEY know how they got caught up in it. And THEY know it was unjustifiable. There's nothing "lofty" about it. Harding got it dead right. The rest is window-dressing and ad hoc justification.
So, yes, I "understand," but that does not make me "sympathetic" with it.
The ring-leaders honestly believed that they had some sort of enforcement rights, deriving from turf rights, when they actually had NO such thing. And they then spent decades justifying their "upsetness" to justify their behaviors, and all of that in the face of an ever-growing mountain of evidence that threatened to undermine their whole edifice.
You say that there is no justification for their behaviors, and you are right. But the actual fact is that there was no justification for their BELIEFS on a host of levels. And that fact holds even today.
Plus.. what one should do in a case like this.
I hope I've answered this question by now. What you DO is to honestly, charitably dialog if possible. If you have actual evidence of objective facts that something is a botch, then you show the evidence and write it up. There IS no rock-police-force, not even "locally," and particularly not in a national park. Nuff said on that.
Mark at one point in the video said that he could see how it was naive what y'all did, but then he went on to contradict himself and say that he thought that you guys did nothing wrong. So which is it?
Again, I hope I have explained this adequately. There is no "which is it," because the two comments are not actually contradictory as you assume they are.
Being 'naive' (particularly in the idealistic way we were) is not 'wrong,' and our 'problem' was, if anything, a more idealized notion of climbing community dialog than the 'locals' were capable of.
Was it naive, and if so, then why didn't you listen to your elders?
Yes, asked and answered. But "our elders?" That one just has me amazed. I simply deny the premise.
Do you mean "more experienced?" More "competent?" More "pure?" I have no idea what idealized version of "our elders" you are floating here, but I simply deny all versions of it as a basis for whatever we were "supposed" to have done to "appease" them.
The idea that you can only have the requisite experience BY working your way up some ladder set forth by the "elders" is the HEIGHT of the whole "Valley Christian," elitist mentality that Harding died parodying! It is outrageous, and I won't have any part of it.
You "judge" climbs on their actual merits. There is no "one path to competency!" Here in Colorado bitd, the "Kloberdanz Kid" showed up entirely unknown and just blew everybody away; they had the integrity to admit it. That basic argument that Grossman still tries to float has been by definition debunked. CLEARLY, by some "miraculous means," we were competent. End of story.
You don't have to bow down to Grossman and pay some apprenticeship under his heavy hand in order to be granted the "right" to "take the next step," while he says, "Respect your Sensei!" There are NO "elders" that matter in the sense you are suggesting!
Respect is NOT the same thing as "getting permission" (or even "getting a nod") in climbing! And everybody quickly focuses on the notion that we DID, perhaps, wink-wink-nudge-nudge, have SOME "duty" to treat "the locals" with respect, while it is wink-wink-nudge-nudge sort of understood that they had no "duty" to treat us with any respect. After all, we hadn't EARNED any respect from them.
That notion utterly begs the question. J-tree mentioned on this thread that the Riverside Quarry has some pretty stout aid climbing (thanks, btw). Yet our really hard routes have been "cleaned off" to make way for bolted sport climbs. Those routes don't even exist anymore. But I can tell you the truth that BOTH pitches of Bird of Prey (which no longer exists) were harder than ANYTHING I have ever done anywhere else. The fact that Grossman and his ilk downplay our experience begs the question. The fact that we were "outsiders" to YOSEMITE is irrelevant to the issue, because without the "local" mentality, you recognize that there are hard things outside of Yosemite, and you have the humility to realized that you don't know it all! You treat an unknown outsider with some initial respect and civil dialog!
As my Kung Fu instructor used to say, "No matter how bad-ass you think you are becoming, there is always somebody out there who can kick your ass. And you are not going to know who he is in advance. So have some humility and respect." The likes of Grossman could have learned something about climbing from that advice.
So if you are suggesting, as Grossman does, that we had some duty to seek out and bow down to our "elders" and "get their blessing," well, I'm sorry but, no, I AM just a bit too much of a CLIMBER to do such a thing. I bow to NO MAN, and I mean that. And anybody suggesting that I should can stuff that where (hopefully) the sun never shines. Ridiculous, and I'll have NO part of it.
If they were "so upset," then THEY had a responsibility to dialog and to LOOK at what was there. We offered to show them. We offered our lines for them to jug up and SEE. That's the extent of what they were "owed." Beyond that, HUMAN dignity and HUMAN respect should have been the trumping considerations. And even a 20-something should have enough maturity to just "get over it" regarding their personal upsetness.
And do you blame them for being upset, or just for how they dealt with their feelings?
Asked and answered. They are responsible for how they processed the (ample) evidence that was before them. They are responsible for how they intentionally turned away from the evidence. They are responsible for how they emotionally reacted. They are responsible for INTENTIONALLY stirring up a mob mentality. Etc.
However, I don't call it "blame" in the sense you might mean. Many of them WERE 20-something kids, and some HAVE apologized very forthrightly. Like kids playing with matches, they didn't realize how it was all going to go when they struck the match. So, responsible, yes; "blame," no.
What is, in your understanding, the proper way to deal with something like this?
I hope I've answered that by this point. If you want to further pursue this, I'm happy to do so. I'm not punting. I just don't want to be ridiculously redundant.
Thank you for your forthright and, I believe, sincere questions. I think that this is exactly the sort of dialog that could have deescalated the situation bitd, had it been honestly pursued. Of course, something like this is much easier (and actually communicates more) face-to-face. But we do what we can.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 06:50am PT
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One of the best posts in this thread so far, from BIOTCH:
'Why the FA feels the need to justify their efforts so much?
Movies, interviews etc "thou protesteth too much"
That ain't how it ever been done in the ditch.
Never has been.
I see it as weak.
The route maybe the best ever, but whimpering and complaining gets you nuth IMO.'
Madbolt's last post is more proof they're still slandering and spewing whine to justify their effort with long boring irrelevant whiny posts.
Whimpering, complaining, flat out lying including new lies like death threats in bathroom stalls....the hype and whine never ends from these two schmucks. Sad the movie has brought forward yet another round of slander and whimpering from the WOS schmucks and all their lemming supporters. There have been far more serious incidents of violence,vandalism and scapegoating in the Valley with some resulting in arrests, prosecution and convictions, but the WOS hysteria keep flowing with the same old worn out lies and false narratives and now some new ones thrown in the mix.....they just can't stop their whine......their whine flows by the gallon...
WOS is not and never will be a significant and popular climb no matter how many years S and J whine about it.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 25, 2014 - 07:09am PT
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meaty and grossman for the 3rd,,oh wait. too late for them.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 25, 2014 - 07:13am PT
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Gee, um, I guess that's what happens when you ask a philosophy professor philosophical questions.......
Anyway, this was the best part:
"To address such atrocities, you do something like what I did with "Look Out! Weak Sauce!" and you CLIMB the damned thing, leading it, and document what you found."
Wow. Richard almost swore.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 25, 2014 - 07:28am PT
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Tempest in a teapot, time for people to go climbing......harsh therapy, I know.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2014 - 07:57am PT
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The vitriolic, hypocritical, and illogical posts do more to convince me these guys were wronged than anything they say.
I concur with DMTs strongsauce comment too. Although I admit I did read those reports, so I'm guilty of looking at the train wreck.. At least nothing was chopped.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 25, 2014 - 08:25am PT
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"Yes if someone runs down my climb the logical thing to do is go climb another route and run its FA team down too.
Strongsauce..."
I think you're missing the point, whatever your name is. Craig, right?
Richard's objective in climbing the second ascent of this route was to document its claims. He did this like a journalist, photographing all the placements and so on in excruciating Richard Jensen detail. Why? Because the route had been highly touted as one of the hardest aid climbs in the world. So he went to see if it was or not. You know where to look to see what he found.
He is justifiably annoyed that nobody bothered to this for his route Wings of Steel, as they bashed the route without even climbing it, or without apparently even walking to the base with a pair of binoculars.
Let's put it in another context:
Let's say somebody puts up a sport climb, and they tout is as one of the hardest in the world. Don't you think the top sport climbers would be lined up to give it a go? And suppose these sport climbers went up there, took pictures and videos of themselves climbing the route and so on, and they discovered that it was nowhere near as hard as claimed, and that various holds had been artificially manufactured. Would the second ascensionists not report this?
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Nov 25, 2014 - 09:05am PT
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Like a lot of folks here I find this whole W.O.S. saga very
interesting . I think the movie was well done and answered
many questions. It seems that they not only were "qualified"
to do this route but were " uniquely qualified " to get it
done. It may not be everyone's cup of tea but they put up
a very hard route that not many seem to have sack enough to
repeat. They certainly have my respect. I do not know Mr.
Grossman but to me he did come off poorly in the film . Why
didn't someone go up and have a look ? That is the obvious
question that comes up in my mind. People will see what they
want to see but , this is climbing the wall is right there
in front of them, go have a look see.
If this route had been put up by Bridwell where would it stand ?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 09:33am PT
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Thanks for taking the time to write all that Richard.
Some of that I never knew happened.
I know the biggest fear they said was; "They're going to drill a bolt ladder up the "King Slab" lol.
But you have to admit .... there's a hell of a lot of holes drilled to capture that region ......
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:29am PT
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Dingus, if you go through the posts that Jensen made when he was preparing for the SA, he was skeptical of the grade but also (and importantly) was excited about the possibility of climbing something that would be at the limit of possibility (similar statements of feelings were made when he did intifada)
From the posting at the time, and before the actual climb soured him to it, there seemed to be less of a chip on his shoulder than a desire to get out and see a route that was "the hardest."
Edit: Agreed Dingus! Cheers!
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John M
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:31am PT
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Thanks for your response Richard. I'm not quite sure how to answer you. It sounds very much like you were wronged. I have thought that since your story first started being told on supertopo. I am though, not sure of the notion that there are no elders. Elders, as in some societies such as the native American indians did not necessarily have blanket authority to decide everything. A warrior could choose if he wanted to follow the chief or not. Of course he could also be kicked out on his ass if he didn't. But it was always a power struggle. And the elder could have been wrong and could have mishandled it, but that doesn't mean that person isn't an elder. An elder isn't always the better person. Its often simply the person that the most people pay attention to. They don't even have to agree with everything the elder says, they just have to follow them most of the time for the person to hold the position. Which means that in your case, the tribe could be acting out against the wishes of the elders. And there isn't a lot that the elder can do.
My "take" at that time was that John Dill and Mike Durr were not "actively encouraging" any harassment of us. But they also both repeatedly made it clear that they sided with those SAR members that were affronted. They kept urging us that the root of the problem was us, not the affronted SAR guys. They kept telling us that the problem was ours to resolve, and they had various suggestions of how WE should solve it. So there definitely was a very passive aggression on their part, and the lines were quite clearly drawn.
I simply wonder what would have happened if you had swallowed your pride, backed off the climb and gone and followed one of their suggestions to climb something else to prove your chops. Because from my point of view, even if the first two pitches were done perfectly, and show exquisite skill. Its still only two pitches. A lot happens to a person when they get a couple thousand feet off the ground. That has been shown many times. Some people manage to keep it together, others don't. And some start bending the rules. Obviously now we all know that you can keep it together, and put up a stout route without bending the rules. But was that known back then? It doesn't appear that way to me.
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John M
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:39am PT
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LOL.. yeah.. you are probably right.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:40am PT
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As j-tree says a lot of guys want to try the hardest climbs at times to actually verify the claims
and to test their skills against that claim.
Try not to jump so hard to the conclusions of Richard and Mark as you may easily fall victim to the very
same mistake these so called "Valley locals" had made.
The photo documentation that Richard and Mark made on that desert climb was awesome and so interesting.
More so than the many words can usually convey.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:43am PT
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Regarding not changing anything, Mark is referring to our behaviors. He is referring to the idea that we supposedly "should" have "proved ourselves" to the "Valley locals" prior to assuming that we had any "right" to try the route. He is referring to the idea that we "should" have "initiated dialog" in some way. What would that even have looked like???
Here we go.... We walk into Camp 4 and start asking, "We're new here, and we'd like to find some 'locals' to talk to about a new route we're planning to do on El Cap. Can anybody direct us to some 'locals,' because we want to pay some dues before we imagine that we're 'worthy' to get started?"
This is hilarious, it's called being friendly when showing up in a new place. You don't need to spray & cup balls, just don't be an antisocial weirdo, show a little respect to earn a little respect.
Did you guys try that or did you think it was up to all the people there to roll out the carpet?
In the film you guys say it was your intention to avoid everyone.
You could have prevented the whole thing by showing up with a case of beer & being friendly instead of being antisocial from the planning stage.
Planning to be antisocial doesn't leave a lot of potential to make friends now does it?
The fact that 30 yrs later you don't realize that and can't properly answer Ken M's question blows my mind.
You could have probably even grabbed the beer after the first issue you had with the locals & all would have been good with a few around a fire and some stories.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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There's nowhere in any "book" you need to talk to any "locals" to do a first ascent on El Cap.
You can come into Yosemite Valley and tell any local at any time to "Fuk off" at anytime you so wish.
Charlie Porter did it to Bridwell right to his face ......
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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Well maybe they should have told somebody to fuk off then Werner.
They should have done something different.
I didn't say they should have asked to put up an FA.
When considering Ken M's question I was trying to say that they should have, or could have used a different approach socially towards the other people there, based on how they described it in the movie.
Hindsight is usually 20/20, but in this case the fact that the FAists of WOS still think they could have done nothing different, nothing at all to avoid or change the situation that occured shows massive blinders.
It's the whole reason this story drags on.
You guys had beers back then right?
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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It really blows me away that supposedly grown men get so butt hurt because someone didn't come over and say "hi there" and acknowledge them. Just reeks of that whole "local surf spot get the f*#k out here mentality". From my understanding Mark and Richard were looked at as goody two shoes Jesus Freaks anyways. Anyone here seriously think they would have even been accepted even if they would have walked over and said Hi? And what the hell is wrong with being a good host and saying Hi first, were the valley locals that had an issue with Mark and Richard too good for that? How much ego do you have to have to believe other human beings owe you something just because you are you? As Kaulk mentioned in the film. This is more about the human condition than anything else.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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You could have probably even grabbed the beer after the first issue you had with the locals & all would have been good with a few around a fire and some stories.
Jensen and Smith don't (or at least didn't) drink.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:43am PT
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They should have done something different.
Okay, okay, I give. We SHOULD have done something different. Some vague, I don't know... social... something. We SHOULD have known who the "problem people" were going to be and, well, done... something... social... about it in advance.
You SAY that hindsight is 20/20, so, yes, if you're really holding to that, then, yes, we SHOULD have gone up to Corbett as soon as we got in to the Valley and said, "Dude, we're about to get into a deep and serious problem that's going to span decades and really spin all out of control. Or, we could just sit down now and have a beer and talk it all out in advance."
You see? The problem with counterfactual, subjunctive scenarios is that you can't "manufacture" the scope, limitations, and metrics of what that "20/20" is supposed to include. It's all easy to talk about now and interpret snippets of statements as you wish. But the real-time reality reveals the deeper epistemic holes that we all live in.
My point is that the question, "Would have done anything differently?" is malformed. Knowing what we know now, somehow manufacturing a "perfect" and "hindsight" scenario, yes, certainly, you can dream up this or that scenario in which we would do this or that thing differently. But there IS no such reality, so we respond as we do because there IS no such reality, and we're not going to spend our time responding to an infinite number of scenarios! "What if Corbett was wearing a pink miniskirt. What would you have done differently then?" "What if there was no such thing as beer. What would you have done then?" "What if the 'locals' actually cared about truth-seeking instead of forming decades-long opinions in the face of the evidence. What would you have done then?"
You forget that I had climbed in the Valley for YEARS before WoS. I knew quite a few people back then... apparently not the "right" people. But I was FAR from "anti-social."
When we say "kept our heads down," we are not saying "anti-social." We are saying that we didn't swing a big dick and call attention to ourselves, like, "Look! Look! Bad-ass non-locals here to make a big statement on the big stone!!!"
When we say, "avoid trouble," we are not saying, "skulk about in the shadows and avoid talking to anybody." We are saying that we didn't swing a big dick and.... Well, a reasonable person gets the point.
This "20/20" BS is just that. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Grossman RIGHT NOW makes the point that there was nothing we were going to do differently to present the FACTS differently to have made any substantive change in outcome.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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This is more about the human condition than anything else.
And there it is!
Look, I came on to respond to Grossman (yet again). Then so much turns into yet more drive-by shootings, pot shots, questions of "ego" and "motivation" and on and on. I have no stomach for it.
Questions are asked, and I try to answer forthrightly. I can't rise to the challenge of the Meaty's and Dingus's and so on. It's just so tiresome.
Werner, I appreciate your comments very much. Thank you. Others have been thoughtful as well. J-tree for one has a clue and articulates it really well. Jingy has been penetrating and downright hilarious. The whole "I'm nobody" bit has had me almost snorting out my nose.
But I'm not going to "explain" or "defend" my "motivations" on ascents like Intifada and Weak Sauce (well, on any actually) at this point. I did not do those routes TO tear anybody down. I simply reported on what I found. I know my own motivations, always have, and I'll look anybody in the eye (face to face) about WHO I am. These online pot-shot wars, when that's what they become, are a waste of time.
I'm outy.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Nov 25, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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I was just addressing the question asked in the film, & again by Ken M.
Which was what could you have done different?
To which the original answer was: nothing
Not condoning the treatment incurred.
Madbolter1 actually does a good job explaining the circumstance a little better in his last post, much better than in the film. Thanks for the response.
I still did not say u guys should have whipped your dicks out when u showed up and said hi to everyone. Just that showing up with the intention to keep to yourselves may have helped to create the perfect storm for this whole sh#t show to take place.
I never have read the other thread or been interested in this story much, but did watch the film the other day & my opinions of the whole story have been based on the interviews of you guys and the words you used.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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IMO: did Richard and Mark do anything wrong by not "coming to prey at the Camp 4 alter of balls " (LOL great line) NO!
Could they have made things easier on themselves by climbing an El Cap test piece first, probably yes.
So Richard, Mark S. Hold on to the Night, the Valley Will be Right Here Waiting for You.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Nov 25, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
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Ummm, ever notice how there's like hardly any chicks on this thread?
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Nov 25, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
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pc
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
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I love this thread. Just when you thought WoS had run its course....
Great procrastination snackage...
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Nov 25, 2014 - 04:27pm PT
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When posting this video clip I certainly never expected to start this type of discussion.
Get real. Whispering "Wings of Steel" on ST is like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, guaranteed to get a reaction.
One day my wife and I were climbing Moby Dick. Some guy came down the trail and asked if we had seen anyone go by recently. Apparently he had been working on some aid route and someone had taken a dump on his ropes.
The rest, as they say, is history.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 25, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
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Whenever I see this thread I am immediately THERE hanging on a hook in stirrups. I see it, feel it, and taste it, while sitting at my silly computer.
Edit: This thread has Wings
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Nov 25, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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If I get a cancer prognosis in the near future, I'm gonna try for the third ascent. I can't think of a quicker way to achieve fame in the climbing community (as a last hurrah, I guess)) based on what I have to work with.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Nov 25, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
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Klaus that's pretty funny
I was there in the valley at the time living and working.
I remember hearing about this Wings of Steal route (I was working in the climbing shop at the time) and what a hack job it was. A bolt ladder to nowhere. The attacks against these guys was a hot topic for awhile. Too bad only one side was ever heard (at least by me).
Too bad I didn't care enough to at least go look. Butt, I didn't care. I was a nobody, still am.
I'll bet SS sleeps a lot better now. And I'll have to say I admire him for sacking up and apologizing. It seems he felt he needed to. Obviously SG doesn't feel the need.
That's his choice...along with the consequences for that choice.
Mad, I have nothing but respect for you two guys after all I've read and seen (interview +movie).
I'm sorry you guys were treated the way you were and I'm sorry the climbers living in the valley at that time treated you as they did. Pretty much all of them really were nice folks if you got to know them (which wasn't easy granted), they were just caught up in their on egos.
------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, anyone have any contact with Frank/Francis from BITD?
Werner?
Last I saw him we floated down the Grand Canyon together and I lost touch with him.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
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Every now and then Francis pops up here in Yosemite.
He's somewhere rural near the Chico area .....?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:30am PT
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isn't Corbett Harding's favorite kind of Brandy?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:59am PT
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Thanks Werner + Walleye!
I'll try to hunt him down next time I'm back.
If by chance you run into him and think about it maybe you can mention Kemper and my desire to hook up again.
Timid Toperope + Nita in Chico know how to get ahold of me as will the ST linkage.
Writing this from Orissa India right now on a bit of a birding holiday.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Nov 26, 2014 - 10:15am PT
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So much ado about so much of nothing that really matters.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 26, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
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Yes, lots of hustle and bustle but this comment seemed to get passed over;
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
This was posted on Mountain Project yesterday.
By Jim Logan
1 day ago
When I made the first small wide base hooks (Leeper/Logan hooks) I imagined someone doing a climb that is exactly Wings of Steel. I always thought it was terrifying to go out multiple hook moves on those things as they would stay on little edges that were at the breaking strength of the rock and you never knew when the rock was going to explode and send you plummeting. It is very committing climbing. Congratulations to all of you for pushing the limits of slab climbing. I'm sorry the community in the Valley at that time was so insular. Jamie Logan
The invention of new gear has always had a big impact on what we think climbing is.
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pc
climber
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Nov 26, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
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Very cool endorsement of the type of route and use of the hooks.
Thanks for highlighting Jamie's post.
pc
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and partner
Trad climber
Leavenworth, WA
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Nov 26, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
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Steve is an old compadre. do not diss him. He just said what he feels. This makes it human. Likewise you can disagree. Also good. It's all part of life and this was great video. Life is too short to spend it on shi#
andypartner
(climbed w/ Charlie Porter in the later 1960's.)
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Nov 26, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
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The WoS threads are by far my favorites on SuperTopo! I peruse only a tiny fraction of the threads on SuperTopo and very rarely comment, but I've read nearly every comment in every WoS thread. And I enjoyed watching the movie. So it puzzles me why anybody would say WoS is irrelevant (certainly the drama isn't) or why anybody would complain that Jensen and Smith are playing the victim card when Grossman and others still persist in impugning their integrity and competence. It would be interesting to take a poll and see how many of us ordinary climbers who weren't there in 1982 sympathize more with J&S or their critics. By now it seems pretty obvious to me that J&S climbed an exceedingly difficult route in good style and were treated unfairly by their critics.
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bootysatva
Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
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Nov 26, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
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I was lucky enough to climb with Richard in the 70's, and 80's, he was really humble and never bad mouthed anyone. He told me about Wings of Steele but never said anything about the negativity. The guy could free solo 5.11 slab back then.
If it took Ammon 13 days I think That pretty much answered the question about how hard the route actually is.
Congratulations Richard and Mark.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 26, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
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At JTree the other day I asked this 8 year old what he thought of the whole Wings of Steel thang.
He gave me the strangest look. Then his mom threatened to call the rangers.
"Look, lady, he's gonna find out sooner or later."
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Nov 27, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
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If it took Ammon 13 days I think That pretty much answered the question about how hard the route actually is.
I have heard this a few times and feel compelled to comment. Although I have been known to climb routes fast and efficient, I'm also known to go the other direction and take my own sweet time. Those of you who have hung out in the Valley the last few decades can attest to seeing my Jolly Roger flying from my portaledge well into the afternoon, ha ha!
It's simply two different styles with two completely different strategies.
On WoS we planned to take it slow because we knew this was going to be a very unique experience that we would never have again, we wanted to savor it. The mornings we did try and get an early start the reflection from the sun off the slab was so bad it was very difficult to see anything, much less try and find which dime edge to trust.
So we usually got a 2-3pm start every day, climbed a pitch, which took a few hours and called it a day. Also, one of the days we did absolutely nothing because our little team had to regroup, and get the psyche back.
Now, I'm not saying the route wasn't hard because it obviously has some very technical hooking that has shut down some very experienced climbers who have tried it. I'm just saying the time we spent is an inadequate measuring platform for the route's difficulties.
Although... after just a few hours on the route my nerves were usually done for the day, ha ha, I just wanted to chill and drink some beer after so much focus needed to keep it together. Also, we would have gone into a completely different strategy, all together, if we were swinging leads.
Just some things to chew on for that particular aspect of the story. That's all I have to comment, for now.
Carry on...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Nov 27, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
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Ammon,
please resist from posting actual facts on this thread. If this thing is going to get over 1000 posts we are going to need speculation and rampant speculation at that. Of course, then there is the hand waving and attempts at clarifying one's position. We just don't want to be distracted by what really happened.
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bootysatva
Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
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Nov 29, 2014 - 08:23am PT
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Thanks Ammon, I appreciate your communication style.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
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Interesting how global this story has become.
The statistics on Vimeo indicate that this week out of 2,100 total downloads Slovenia has downloaded this video 634 times. That is second to the US. The most obscure is one download from Qatar.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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^^^^
hahaha.
vvvv
[edit: you deleting chickenshit gdavis... haha]
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 12, 2015 - 05:50am PT
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It is my opinion that "Christlike" behavior is no more a common attribute of christians than it is for practicioners of other faiths or for non believers.
Christians, however, who don't follow Christ's example open themselves to the charge of hipocrasy....and their name is legion.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 12, 2015 - 06:52am PT
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I wasn't going to add to my first non-comment that I didn't post earlier on this thread. But then I decided against it. Better late than never I say.
That's all I have.
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sempervirens
climber
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Mar 13, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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Style, respect, ethics, strength of character. Who has shown these traits? The WoS FA'ists or the valley locals of the time? Even if they were inexperienced and incompetent the FA'ists owed nothing to the locals. From my outsider's view those who harassed the FA'ists seem pathetic and jealous.
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JC Marin
Trad climber
CA
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Jan 23, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
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What the hell--why not?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jan 23, 2016 - 07:01pm PT
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The talk to climb ratio of WOS is certainly unmatched.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 23, 2016 - 11:43pm PT
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This is *exactly* why I boulder.
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fragglerockjoe
Trad climber
space-man from outter space
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Jan 24, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
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Cool video! Like😖
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Highgloss
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 24, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jan 24, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
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Ammon - bhilden is spot on. At the end of the film you mentioned doing the route in a day. Tell us about that "strategy". Troll ;)
BTW... i still take exception to the fact that Gabe has been to a SushiFest and you have not graced us with your presence. Jus' Sayin'....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 25, 2016 - 08:51am PT
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Plenty...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 25, 2016 - 11:26am PT
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Where is Ammon during the indoor video segments?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 25, 2016 - 11:42am PT
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Any speculation on the identity of the third shltter on the grassy knoll?
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Jan 25, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
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Ammon - bhilden is spot on. At the end of the film you mentioned doing the route in a day. Tell us about that "strategy". Troll ;)
BTW... i still take exception to the fact that Gabe has been to a SushiFest and you have not graced us with your presence. Jus' Sayin'....
Ok, I'll bite... my strategy would be the same as any push ascent. Find a competent partner, bring only what we think is necessary an start climbing. I'd love to do it with Grossman and have put the idea out there already. Not only would it be a blast, I'm sure it would be quite the bonding experience.
Nature, I'd love to go to a sushi-fest. When's the next one?
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jan 25, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
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Serious question here. After all the commotion, conjecture and turmoil over this route, is the consensus that it is the "hardest" route on El Cap? I'm curious. Names like The Reticent, Space, etc... are always rolling off people's tongues in the community when we say "hardest route on El Cap." I know saying things like "toughest route" are often subjective, but we seem to like having a "toughest" anything don't we? Burliest line ever skied.....biggest wave ever ridden, longest sniper shot ever confirmed....it seems to be in our DNA to want to know and name.
Ammon do you think WOS would vie for that title? Or is there still too much murkiness in the water for it to hold such a title? ANd by the way, how's the ankle? We've never met but I've been wondering since that video of you on that ledge surfaced on the interwebs.
Scott
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jan 25, 2016 - 02:53pm PT
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^^^Dude, you need to brew a pot of coffee and use it as an opportunity to practice the guitar or mandolin or something else with strings (not the drum kit!).
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jan 25, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
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Don't forget the sweet violin.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jan 25, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
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Just going to leave that "strategy" answer where it is....
Nature, I'd love to go to a sushi-fest. When's the next one?
Indian Creek April 22nd and 23rd. Just razzing you a bit on that but would love to have you out! This one might just be over the top.
And now that I no longer have a full time jerb I might just auger in for a week and a half. See what kind of aerial footage I can acquire. I've an arch I want to fly.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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is the consensus that it is the "hardest" route on El Cap?
Until you do a very hard expanding thin nailing pitch above a potential fall onto a ledge you'll never know how nerve wracking hard aid really is .....
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Jan 26, 2016 - 12:53am PT
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Ammon do you think WOS would vie for that title? Or is there still too much murkiness in the water for it to hold such a title? ANd by the way, how's the ankle? We've never met but I've been wondering since that video of you on that ledge surfaced on the interwebs.
Just my opinion, but don't think WOS has any pitches that could be fatal or be seriously maimed... if that's what you mean by "hard". I can think of a few others on the Captain that fit the bill. Ankle is doing great, doc says I'm out of the woods as far as the infection goes, I even have a calf muscle again. Thanks for asking. ;-)
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jan 26, 2016 - 03:58am PT
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I said it before, and will say it here:
Where are the boys with the bubble-gum soles?
I was up there, on fixed ropes, to redrill rivets, bolts and the first two belay anchors. I couldn't see how someone could link hook placements. There would be a good edge (about 1/8" wide), and then nothing above it for another ten feet. It looked impossible to climb.
But, it certainly looked like a hard, but doable free route. The face undulates enough, there are some hard smearing holds up there. I don't climb face, at all, and certainly not hard 5.11 or soft 5.13, but when I did New Dawn, I was always looking to see how Leo Houlding could have freed that route.
The bottom of WOS seemed lower angle and more featured than the slabby parts of New Dawn.
I really think that someone who can climb hard face should at least go up there for a recon. The protection and anchor bolts, up to the second belay, have been replaced. Bring rivet cinches for some of the mid-pitch anchors.
1500 feet of continuous 5.12R - Tomorrow's free climb, available today.
Last century: Glacier Point Apron, Royal Arches Apron
This century: El Capitan Apron
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:51am PT
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"A country full of turds" will be a name for my next climb.
I doubt I would have much fun hanging with Mark or Richard around a campfire but so f*#king what, I respect them. Grossman on the other hand seems like someone you would find working in a truckstop bathroom. I finally took the time to watch this film and all I could think every single time Grossman was talking was "wipe the stupid f*#king smile off your face".
Oh yeah, sweet earring bro.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Feb 13, 2016 - 10:50am PT
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Dicky,
You don't know Steve. Maybe you'd be ahead not to put so much emphasis on how people "seem" to be. Cuz you seem to be a bit Dickish.
Arne
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Feb 13, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
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You don't know Steve
You dont know that.
I do know that Steve didnt know those guys BITD when WOS went up, he was too busy hanging with the "in" crowd of dick swingers and ball cuppers. Historian my ass, just another turd from BITD who cant seem to give credit where credit is due.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Feb 14, 2016 - 08:08am PT
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Today let's all kiss and make up and give each other Capone and Moran themed Valentines.
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skamoto
Mountain climber
coalinga ca
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Mar 22, 2016 - 01:52am PT
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Just saw the movie. Found this post very entertaining lol. How did i just find out about this? Gotta stop working so much and read more ST stuff
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 28, 2016 - 02:26pm PT
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Absolutly no compareson to Robbins and Harding. Zero. Robbins had a beef with Harding's route so he climbed it to chop it. The as#@&%es in the WOS debicle never sacked up to climb it they simply slung human Feces and lots of bad karma. Weak sauce creepy bullys.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 28, 2016 - 02:57pm PT
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"Maybe it is all the internet BS spewed that makes it hard for certain parties in this fiasco to pull as classy a move."
Classiest move of all was The Shitter apologizing for his actions a quarter-century later, and the FA-ists forgiving him unconditionally.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 28, 2016 - 03:11pm PT
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Jebus compares it to Robbins Harding. Not even close. Robbins had sack enough and class enough to climb the rout he dissaproved of. The WOS shiitter who apologized is a stand up guy. That took a lot of courage. The guy who keeps trying to defend the bullying and keeps slagging the route without climbing it gets less than zero respect from me.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Mar 28, 2016 - 03:30pm PT
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Jebus compares it to Robbins Harding. Not even close. Robbins had sack enough and class enough to climb the rout he dissaproved of. The WOS shiitter who apologized is a stand up guy. That took a lot of courage. The guy who keeps trying to defend the bullying and keeps slagging the route without climbing it gets less than zero respect from me.
I think Jebus is actually saying that in his last paragraph.
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Mar 28, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
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“ I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant”
A Greenspan.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Mar 28, 2016 - 07:37pm PT
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Saw the film the other day, can't say I would recommend it nor would I watch it again. The best take home was Richard admitting the line was not pretty (to say the least). No one did the route (variation) because it was a crap line, not because it was hard. There are other crap lines on that side that don't get done. Also, that side of el cap is a frying pan, best to have somewhere to hide from the sun, maybe son of heart chimneys...
Dickey,
You need to read up on Steve a little more. Understand that the kid from Tucson came into the valley and set the style for hard aid, chalkless and bold (X)climbing. Bridwell was climbing well, but Grossman (and Cole) decided style was everything with a series of hard lines up the captain.
and I am a historian biatches.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 29, 2016 - 02:58am PT
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Bullys Suck. Just because Grossman climbed hard BINTD does not mean he is a good person. One of the big failings of our society is that we worship skill at sports to the point that we ignore fatal charecter flaws.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 29, 2016 - 04:39am PT
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One of the big failings of our society is that we worship skill at sports to the point that we ignore fatal charecter flaws.
Grossman does BASE?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Mar 29, 2016 - 04:48am PT
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Classiest move of all was The Shitter apologizing for his actions a quarter-century later, and the FA-ists forgiving him unconditionally.
+1
Says a lot about all three of those gentleman.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 08:10am PT
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It's so interesting to me that this film and or series of released videos has generated all this discussion. If you all had been around when Ammon, Kait and I thought about doing this thing or what the origins of the film were and what we thought it would or could be, you would see we had zero expectations for any of it.
I appreciate all who have watched the film. Most enjoy it at some level and believe me it's not easy to read or hear some criticisms based on filmmaking choices we had to make because of what we had to work with. But I will never try to discourage that criticism because I chose to make a film and put it out to the world and with that comes the criticisms and I accept that. But to make a film that inspires conversation is worth it.
Please support all who make adventure films. Trust me when I tell you people making adventure type films are not in it for the money This film was recently pirated and posted and 18K views of it happened in a month before I could get it taken down. That revenue alone would have funded my next 3 movies.
If anyone one is interested I can post the origins of how this became a movie. This has been discussed at screenings but never on a forum.
Jeff
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Mar 30, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
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I'm with DMT.
Thanks for the movie. It's not the final word but it's a lot of fun, a labor of love and a gift to us all. Respect for independent moviemakers. Sorry to hear of the pirating on Youtube. That's gotta hurt.
My only criticism of the movie is that the historic controversy is not much explained. Because of this, the sole critic of the climb interviewed, Steve Grossman, is portrayed in a poor light, as evidenced by some of the comments here. The movie should have included background context for Steve's comments to make a bit more sense for a modern, uninitiated audience. Perhaps delving deeper into these old wounds was near-impossible for this movie, at the time? Perhaps the time needed would have killed the narrative arc?
Ammon's Rock & Ice's article in #198 delves into why WOS was controversial, how "good" it is, how "hard" it is, etc. This should be mandatory reading for anyone posting on this thread.
A big thanks to Jensen and Smith, Schneider, Grossman, McNeely, The Wolf and his movie for their contributions to the debates over quality, difficulty, bolt counts as we explore our ever-diminishing resource of vertical cliffs.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
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All great points Crunch.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2016 - 06:17pm PT
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I thought it explained it well enough. if anything the movie downplayed the bullying at least compared to some of the stories that were told here on the taco. Bottom line is Amon and Kate climbed it and said it was a prowd route. Groseman did not climb it and is still slinging sh#t about the climb and the climbers.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:03pm PT
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Dang that was great!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
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The Wolf, your YouTube link a few pages back doesn't work. Is there some way to watch this online?
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
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Really enjoyed the film. Ammon is unique and in this world today that is definitely a rarity. Great climbing, interviews, and overall filming. Thanks The Wolf.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
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The link worked when I just tried it. It is on my Vimeo page and channel Accidental Productions, you can try there too. Let me know if it does not work for you and I will send you a link via email.
This video is not on Youtube. Its actually part of the 90 minutes of bonus footage thats available on vimeo. Also in that package is a lengthy Steve Grossman interview.
Jeff
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Mar 30, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
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The lady doth protest too much, methinks
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| Messages 1 - 203 of total 203 in this topic |
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