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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 24, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
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Hi all,
Got a sport anchor concept and would appreciate feedback.
Background:
In the early days of the Owens Gorge (near Bishop, California) we discovered that cold shuts wore really quickly and were far from the ideal anchoring solution.
As most sport climbers know, the Mussy hook seems to have come into common use in the Gorge, and elsewhere, but is also not idea. Often people place their bolts too close together to facilitate use of the hooks, an inherently weak set up from a bolt mechanics standpoint. The hooks require a wrench to replace, and a heavy hook. They wear quickly on popular routes. They are more expensive than steel carabiners. Anchor maintenance in the Gorge continues to be an ongoing problem. I seldom climb down there without finding at least one anchor that is unsafe. The costs for maintaining anchors have been borne largely by a small group of altruistic locals. I believe there is a better way.
Back in the early days of the Gorge I promoted an idea of having the sport anchor be, in sequence, 1. a made for climbing bolt attached to a 2. made for climbing hanger to which a 3. 3/8 lap link or quick link attaches to 5 links of 3/8” chain which ends at a STEEL oval carabiner. Like in the photo below, but ending with a steel ‘biner, not a ring. I still feel this is the best way to go and am in a position to help make it happen, but would like feedback prior to ordering 500 carabiners!
The idea is Eastside Sports, the local climbing shop, would buy a seed order of 500 steel, black anodized carabiners, stamped “Owens Gorge” (just to further entice people to buy commemorative Gorge carabiners and in so doing further contribute to the anchor maintenance fund) and have them for sale in the store. The guys at Climb Tech tell me that their steel carabiners last about 5x longer than Mussy hooks in the Gorge, true or not I don't know. Anyway, the idea is anyone who has a carabiner could, without any tools, replace one that they find too worn for comfort. All proceeds from the sale of the carabiners would go into an anchor maintenance fund to be maintained by the store and which would be made available to anyone wanting to replace anchors here. As far as use of the fund, I’d probably create a simple proposal form for would be anchor maintainers to complete and I'd be the manager of the program. But the steel carabiners would be available to anyone for retail purchase. The store would fund the initial purchase of 500 carabiners and requisite chain.
Benefits:
1. Anyone can replace the anchor, cheaply, quickly, and without tools
2. Much easier to share in the cost of anchor maintenance.
3. A fund is built that contributes to other anchor maintenance needs (like the chain and quicklinks needed to implement the system).
4. Eventually this becomes completely funded by the climbing community - anyone who buys a (commemorative Gorge) ‘biner.
5. The program can be extended to other Eastside climbing areas.
One worry is theft from an anchor. Likely some of that would happen. But I’m willing to bet that as the system becomes more wide spread that we don’t see much theft. And who wants a steel carabiner, anyway? But if someone really has to have their own Gorge commemorative carabiner they can go and purchase one and contribute to anchor maintenance in the Gorge.
Plastic laminated signs would be placed in the store and at the trailheads and down in the Gorge and elsewhere promoting the idea. In the store we’d have a prominent display, encouraging climbers to contribute to route maintenance in the Gorge by purchasing the Gorge commemorative carabiner.
I kinda agree with this guy’s assessment:
http://upskillclimbing.blogspot.com/2013/11/climbing-anchors-ideal-sport-route.html
(Edit to give the photo credit to upskillclimbing.blogspot.com)
of the state of sport anchors and am surprised that no one is doing what I propose.
Feedback, questions and suggestions appreciated!
(Another edit to clarify that Chris at Climbtech actually said (perhaps slight paraphrase, because I don't remember his exact words) that so and so in Bishop had done a lot of anchor replacement in the Gorge and had used some of CT's steel carabiners and thought that they might be lasting five times as long as the mussys.) So and so may be using the 'biners in use that is different than at an anchor, I don't know. I'll try and track him down.
Todd Vogel
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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are these steel guys twistgate, screwgate, non-locking?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
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stamped “Owens Gorge” (just to further entice people to buy commemorative Gorge carabiners
why would someone buy one when there are free ones being "given away" at the crag. Seriously, I would not expect biners to last very long. What is so difficult about clipping ones own biners to a chain?
I thought the advantage of the quick-link was the fact that it required some work to remove it?
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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
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CA.timothy: my concept is for just a regular (steel) non locking oval. Mussy hooks aren't locking, and "shuts" that everyone used to love don't even have a gate!
Jon Beck: the problem with chain is bozos will top rope through it and wear out that bottom link. When that happens the link can either be cut off with a hack saw (real pain in the ***), or the entire link of chain gets replaced, which means unscrewing the quick link (or removing the lap link)... you need chain and potentially tools to do that. In sport areas leaving chain just doesn't work, imo, just due to fast wear issues. Even if it's slow wear eventually it wears out and needs maintenance. Though personally I agree with you... is it really so hard to use your own 'biner?
Many of the routes down there already have steel Mussy Hooks. They wear fairly well, but on the busy routes they can wear to 1/2 thick in a matter of weeks. Steel carabiners would do at least as well (or better if climb tech is to be believed.) Time will tell.
I think it would be fairly straightforward - and important data to the question - to do a climb tech steel biner vs. mussy wear test. For speed's sake we could use a wet rope, dirtied with Gorge pumice soil.
Thanks for the comments.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
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A reasonable idea.
The guys at Climb Tech tell me that their steel carabiners last about 5x longer than Mussy hooks in the Gorge, true or not I don't know. Can you find out more about this?
It seems important to the frequency of maintenance.
The Mussy hooks are a lot thicker than a standard steel biner.
They could be a different alloy, though.
Often people place their bolts too close together to facilitate use of the hooks, an inherently weak set up from a bolt mechanics standpoint. I'm not sure I understand this. Bolts close together reduces friction when lowering. I suppose if the rock quality is suspect, a shorter distance between the holes might weaken each other (not a problem in good granite; can be a problem in concrete).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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It's a good idea in theory, but it won't work for 2 main reasons:
1) a LOT of jerks will steal the biners and rap off the chains,
2) the biners will wear quickly, regardless of what Climbtech says. Everything's been tried down there. NOTHING can stand up to fine volcanic grit, attracted to the rope by static electricity, and ground through the anchors. You are basically running a big soft rattail file through the anchor everytime you lower. Volume of metal - aka Mussy hooks - is the only solution. In Owens even they need replacement frequently, while in other areas they would last a lifetime.
Mussy hooks require only an adjustable wrench and a new Mussy hook. The weight, size, and lack of usefulness/attractiveness of a Mussy hook, plus the wrench, keeps theft to a minimum.
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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
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Bolt mechanics: Bolts need to be a minimum of 10 diameters of the bolt apart (Rawl catalogue). I would assume more is better from a strength of the placement standpoint, and overlapping areas of force from the bolt, but that's outside my area of expertise... Sometimes Mussys are placed less than that, for the reason you state - minimizes friction, but weakens the bolt. I'm not sure if the medium (concrete v rock) actually matters. The Rawl catalogue specifies this for three different grades of concrete, implying that the density actually does not matter. I'll see if I can track down my old Rawl catalogue and find more. However this is an (interesting) tangent to the question.
Clint Cummins, Greg B (good to hear from you, thanks!):
Here's a test idea: I'll rig Gorgeous (one of the busiest routes in the north end of the Gorge. Mussy life span there: six weeks in the busy season). With one Mussy and one steel Climbtech.(There's a third bolt there but it doesn't get load.) I'll come back in two weeks and compare. Perhaps I'll leave a count board at the base so people could note the number of full weight lowers on the anchor in that period of time. Half way through the test I'll switch places with each, climb tech 'biner for mussy.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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Ten diameters - the concrete standard - is not very far at all, 3.75" for 3/8" bolts, 5" for 1/2" bolts - both of those are super close in the view of most climbers!
Todd, better to have both the same at each anchor to reduce funky effects like the Mussy taking most of the friction. Do two of each on a couple high traffic anchors for a certain time period, then reverse - try to pick generally high use season.
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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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Agreed on both counts. I'd much rather see bolts pretty far apart, I like the look of an anchor where you can tell the bolts don't share the local strata of the rock, for one thing.
Excellent idea on the testing.
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crackfiend
climber
Springdale, Utah
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
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I like the idea of the mussy hook and or fixed carabiner for ease of clipping and not needing to untie and thread the anchor. Have you though of using this type of carabiner attached with a quick link? it has the conviencace of the mussey hooks, durability of steel, replaceable, and takes enough effort to remove that people wont be as likely to take them
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
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I like that idea a lot. I already purchased some steel biners for exactly that purpose to use at a different area. There are plenty of areas where there shouldn't be any theft of gear from the anchors. I think the Gorge would be one of them. The ease of maintenance definitely makes this a good solution and Climb Tech biners are the cheapest steel ones that you can get. Tom is using them in the Lost World for exactly that purpose and Tioga cliff is also set up with them thanks to McTwisted.
The biners that require an allen wrench are great in the sense that they don't twist around, but some of them don't accept a beefy chain (for example the Camp carabiner). They are also more then x2 more expensive compared to Climb Tech ovals.
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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
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I think this is mainly gonna come down to the carabiner vs. mussy wear testing. I don't mind throwing some money at carabiners that might get stolen, I just want a solution that can be crowd funded (eventually) and which enables anyone to 'fix' an anchor when the need arises. Perhaps mussys are the best approach, but as far as I know we haven't tested steel 'biners for this purpose in the Gorge. I like the look of that one which requires the allen key, need to check on price dif. Those Climbtech ones will be pretty inexpensive in lots of 500.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
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The Trango ones are the cheapest that require a pin (no threads on the pin, though) at $6.55. The ones with threads are usually $11 to $13. Compare that with $5.95 for the climb tech oval.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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I like the anchors that Mr. Ayers has been using in Chochese (sp?)...
Its one regular hanger, with about 10 inches of chain and a Rap hanger even with the end of the chain. If you try to lower your rope gets a ton of friction and rolls and twists up a lot. (wish I had a photo)
The best thing.... you can't lower from them at all, or top rope. You must slap on your own biners.
Last climber must rap.
But I do like the idea of a donation fund for the ORG. Heck the first time I walked down, then up, the new trail to the central gorge, I was so happy I wanted to fork over a $100 to the great folks who made that happen.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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I'm not sure if the medium (concrete v rock) actually matters. The Rawl catalogue specifies this for three different grades of concrete, implying that the density actually does not matter. I'll see if I can track down my old Rawl catalogue and find more.
The medium does matter. The strength of the rock determines the strength of the anchor placement for the weaker rocks (sandstone, etc.). In really strong rock like granite, the anchor itself will fail before the rock blows.
I've posted the diagram below on a previous thread. The strength of any single anchor is based on the mechanical properties of the metal anchor itself (easy to determine) as well as the strength of the shear cone produced when the anchor tries to pull out of the rock. The listed strength is the lower of the two values. There are other factors such as edge distance, localized crushing, thickness of substrate, etc. but for most rock climbing applications the mechanical strength and shear cone will govern.
Rawl gives different strength values for different concrete strengths, so engineers can specify type/size/quantity of anchors/studs based on what kind of concrete they will be used in. If you are anchoring to higher strength (6,000+ psi) concrete you can use smaller/shallower/fewer anchors. If you are anchoring to low budget 2,000 psi sidewalk concrete, then you'll need to use bigger/deeper/more to develop the same anchor strength.
In other words 5" of spacing is plenty good for solid rock 3/8" dia anchors. If the rock is fractured or at all suspect, then they should be spaced more or be located away from the fracturing or weak rock. I like to place them at about 6" in good rock. You could place them at 4", but it just doesn't look right...
I think the steel carabiners will disappear. Too much like real booty.
I have access to hundreds of feet of retired steel chain from precast rigging/hoisting operations. Thicknesses of 3/8" to 5/8", strengths of 20,000 lbs to 60,000 lbs per link. Plenty good for rapping... You simply attach a single link to a quicklink and then attach the quicklink to the bolt or chain. When the link wears out, you just swap it out for another. Maybe leave a pile of links at the local climbing shop? There is some work in cutting every other link off the chain, but it goes real quick if you have a rebar cutter or quality grinder with a zip wheel. PM me if you are interested in some free chain.
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tv
climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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Great info, thanks so much for posting it. Will pm re chain, I kinda like that idea, actually, though not quite as glam as a commemorative 'biner!
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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the problem with chain is bozos will top rope through it and wear out that bottom link
I figure that's probably even more of a problem with pre-plumbed hooks or 'biners where they can just clip into them instead of having to weigh building a TR anchor (that they can then just clip into and be lowered) vs. having to untie and then thread half the rope through chain links.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
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Loose the Mussy and the biner. Use zinc plated quick links from the bolt to either 1/2" or 5"8 Grade 43 chain. If lower chain ever wears just use some bolt cutters to remove it. It's my favorite way to see sport routes set up. It might not go over so well at the gorge where people are used to the clip in and lower mentality but whatever. They'll either figure it out how to anchor and re-thread or they won't.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
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The Gorge has an open anchor tradition, and changing to closed anchors won't go over well.
There is a good argument for safety as well as speed, to reduce rappel accidents particularly with less experienced followers.
Of course it's mostly for convenience.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
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Yeah Greg I agree. Chains just have so many advantages though. I can already see people leaving their own biners because they can't figure out how to anchor and thread. Might be worth trying it just for booty. The safety trade off probably isn't worth it though. I'd hate to see some noob dirt nap it. Keep the mussy's.
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sDawg
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
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Hm. A lot of good thoughts and kudos to everyone who is concerned about the safety of climbers too lazy/cheap to use their own biners for toproping.
I agree that if the bottom link were not clip-able, people would be more inclined to use their own draws for long TR sessions and then use the chains only for a final rappel.
While I actually don't think many will deliberately steal the biners, I do think you may overestimate our community-average reading level. Visitors will miss the signs and think the biners are booty and take them. I don't know how often, but probably faster than anything wears through.
Perhaps the solution is to have the entire chain be replaceable and for it to clip into the bolt and have a ring at the bottom (made from the same "wears 5x slower" steel as these magic biners?). It looks more like a rappel-only anchor and not like something someone left (which would be OK to booty). Taking it would also force you to rappel on the bolts. Maybe that's worse if people actually do it and wear down the bolts, but hopefully most are smart enough not to. It's a lot to replace, but there could be a recycling policy. You buy the entire chain for $30 and bring the one you replaced back for $20 back. The store puts a new ring on the bottom and resells it. If you take one out and don't need to replace any anchors, bring the whole thing back for a refund.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Oct 24, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
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Here's what I've taken to doing at the crag in my front yard, a 75' high former sandstone quarry that was blasted for rubble. The routine is to go ahead and TR through the captive stainless carabiners, and we haven't had any issues. On the otherhand, there just isn't that much traffic, there's an owner paying attention, and the ground is relatively clean so very little grit gets picked up. Can't say I'd necessarily install it anywhere, but at least the captive eye means its not casually pilferable.
Edited to add: After watching a couple people fumble around on the standard set up to rap, I decided to simplify with the clips where we used to just have chain. I could go my whole life without having someone die on my cliff.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
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sDawg, that's not a bad idea at all, I'd never even thought of an entire chain clipped into the bolt with a steel biner! As long as the steel biner is captive to the chain, no one would go stealing a big heavy chain. On the other hand, expecting people to carry a few big heavy chains for replacement might be asking a bit much!
A mussy and an adjustable wrench still seem pretty easy and somewhat lightweight…at least compared to a chain!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 24, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
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Like Greg said, you have to first decide between:
1. Closed ring/chain
or
2. Open clippable (Mussy hook, biner)
You can't compare 1 with 2, especially if 2 is the standard.
One way to make a regular steel biner more difficult to steal would
be to wrap tape around it -
on both sides of the chain it clips, thick enough that
the tape won't pass through the chain.
(Obviously you can't pretape both sides).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 24, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
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I always go with the construction industry specs over climber wild ass guess phobias. the manufacturers instalation specs are designed to meet ICC and ESR requirements. the sh#t is made to keep buildings from falling down. read the specs on any bolts that you are installing for life support. some like the rawl power wedge are not even rated for stone yet were recomended to me by route developers from NRG and are also sold on rapbolting.com as climbing anchors. I have had several loosen up and heard of other cases where they loosened up and failed. Use the correct products rated for both stone and concrete. Placeing the bolts farther apart puts more stress on the bolts due to the sharper angle.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 24, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
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Best method is to use 5/16th quick link on the hanger and 1/2in quick link on the rope end. Mussy hooks teach people to be stupid and complacent.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:43am PT
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Small hose gear clamps are the answer to reduce theft.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 25, 2014 - 05:06am PT
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I would wrap that sharp thing with tape...
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Oct 25, 2014 - 06:31am PT
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sharp?? My Ass.
you fall down
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 25, 2014 - 07:59am PT
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Two things I found to be an absolute truth with anchors. 1) If it is easy to clip into (mussy or fixed carabiner) people WILL TR directly off the anchor and wear it out quickly. and 2) any loose biner hanging on a chain that is not welded on there, WILL get stolen. 100% of the time. You can zip tie or band them to slow it down... they will just bring tools next time.
Like some others, I'm not a fan of either. Welded rap ring or large quicklink on a chain is best since it rotates, doesn't wear out easily and forces people to clip their own gear into the anchor to TR. Welded rap rings are the only thing E and I use on our routes.
Owens already has a tradition with the Mussy hooks, so the easiest solution there is to just replace them with new ones. Like someone said, changing them out to a new system (if you aren't the FA) would probably just piss people off.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:23am PT
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I always liked Cold Shuts with a biner or Mussy in the middle. Even at McMaster Carr (which is expensive) 1/2" cold shuts are $1.20. I bet if we looked around and bought them in quantity we could get them for much less than a buck. Cold Shuts wear out fast but they are easy to replace. They are very fast to clip into. Even when they are worn you have the biner/mussy as a back up and, if placed properly (at the same level as the Cold Shuts) it will never wear. This probably wouldn't be the best solution for high use climbs (Probably 3 Mussy's would be best for Gorgeous etc) but for many of the routes at Owens etc the cold shuts would last for years.
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Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:30am PT
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Just put a steel quicklink at the bottom of the chain-cheaper than a 'biner and long lasting and easy to exchange when they wear out.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:41am PT
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Just put a steel quicklink at the bottom of the chain-cheaper than a 'biner and long lasting and easy to exchange when they wear out.
Magic Ed: This doesn't solve the problem of being easy to clip, which I think is essential.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:44am PT
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Cold Shuts wear out fast but they are easy to replace.
I would disagree with this statement. Bolts often corrode, get dirt in them, or cause the rock to "hole-out" around the end during removal - making them spinners and hard to remove for cold-shut replacement.
(Edit: volcanic rock/ORG specific)
This is also true with replacing the Fixe rap rings, though as mentioned, they last longer due to the rotating wear points.
The best solution is one where you don't have to mess with the bolt at all.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:48am PT
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Agreed leaving the bolt alone and making any replacements from the bolt hanger side would be the way to go. Just leave the mussies be and replace when needed. Has anyone tried to find a higher grade mussy?
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 09:11am PT
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We need to think "out of the box". One of the challenges is to come up with something that is easy to clip and wears very slowly. The following addresses both these issues but is stupid for a number of reasons. I just put it out there to encourage creativity. Drill two 3/4 inch diameter holes in the rock that are in the same vertical plane and slanted down a bit. Buy a 3/4 inch metal rod and cut it into 3" lengths and pound them into the hole. Of course, put a Mussy between them to back up the rods and to keep the rope from coming off the ends of the rods.
1) It is easy to clip.
2) It is easy to replace (just pull out the rods and put new ones in)
3) It has little visual impact.
4) It would last a long time. (3/4" of steel is a lot of meat)
5) It is cheap (The steel would cost 30 cents for each 3" rod).
6) It is easy to install (with a Bosch and a 3/4 inch drill bit)
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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MisterE: How do you quote someone, when you reply, like you did with my post?
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 09:19am PT
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How do you quote someone
Like that?
Copy the text you want to quote. Choose the " marks in the reply box. Paste the copied text.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 11:06am PT
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I would disagree with this statement. Bolts often corrode, get dirt in them, or cause the rock to "hole-out" around the end during removal - making them spinners and hard to remove for cold-shut replacement.
You make some good points. I believe Stainless steel bolts should be used at all times which will help with the corrosion and a stud rather than a bolt will help with "hole-out" problem
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Oct 25, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
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I have wondered the same thing Brian
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
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The solution to this high grit, high friction wear problem is to introduce an aluminum clip through pulley insert into the mix. The same sort of insert that folks used to use made of plastic for crevasse rescue work but made out of metal.
This would still require a flat-ended, pearabiner style steel carabiner or big quicklink to allow the pulley insert to rotate easily without binding.
This would solve the basic rope on steel wear problem but also decreases the amount of effective drag provided by the top anchor since you are belaying through a pair of pulleys.
You still have the theft issue but the pulley inserts don't really have any appeal to steal them. If folks are willing to keep the wear on the top anchors to a minimum by putting the wear on their own draws before using the fixed anchors for exiting then this solution would have a reasonable service life.
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tv
climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
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I've thought about the same solution. I think the issue of reduced friction would be an issue - it would mean for most belayers a re-learning of how to lower, in essence, since the lowerer would now be dealing with the additional (roughly) 40% of the force formerly taken by the anchor. I would expect some belay failure accidents or near misses... However, thinking outside the box, as I think we should be for a long term solution to a sustainable and easy to maintain anchor, this makes a lot of sense.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
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For high use anchors like those in the Owens I can't stress enough that folks need to help out by putting wear on their own gear and impacting the anchors only at the end of their use. Lazy habits just create more wear, work and expense for everyone involved.
Only the last climber lowered would be affected by the lower drag situation if everyone climbs smart.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
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I have replaced quite a few anchors in my time, and I always thought that the welded-ring set-up was one of the best, because:
A. the ring rotation (as I mentioned) doesn't wear in the same place,
B. one can thread a loop of rope through and tie a figure-8 on a bight before untying (for lowering), so the belay is never off, and
C. It generally gets less wear because it provides less incentive to just clip through the anchors, since one has to re-thread and leaders generally just want to lower and let the second deal with the cleaning.
Although I have never see the set-up, I always thought the ideal anchor would be the welded-ring on a quick-link, so the bolt didn't need to be messed with. I have even thought about cutting the bolt on a horizontal Fixe hanger, adding a quick-link and putting the set-up back on a vertical hanger in high-use areas to make the change-out quicker.
If anyone has seen the pre-made set-up, or knows where to buy just the welded rings, this might be a good solution.
Additionally, grade 8 steel lasts significantly longer - a grade 8 Mussy hook would be another good solution for high-use/volcanic dust areas.
Erik
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Oct 25, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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RE: hard coating surface layers.
I remember some years back when BD used a thicker anodize coating on Aluminum figure 8. Once the anodize layer wore through in one spot, it created a small edge that would likely increase abrasion wear on a rope.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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People will TR off of ANY clip in style anchor. Be it Mussy or Biner. Bring the chains. Just the chains. Let people leave their own gear for TR'ing. If you set up the tr and have a second whose incapable of re threading do it for them.
Anchor in.
Rethread the bottom link of chain.
Retie.
Place two of YOUR OWN biners on the hanger or first link of chain.
Lower.
Your biners are taking close to all of the force.
The second follows the route and cleans your biners. Their already set to lower off the chains.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
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My observation and experience with steel rings doesn't match yours MisterE.
A little wear and the ring doesn't rotate freely anymore and starts to wear top and bottom.
Much bigger diameter rings would be an option and so is beefier chain sections. Unfortunately you lose every other link if you start cutting chain to make single links.
Ruppel- Perhaps a triangular shaped heavy quicklink and pulley wheel is the ticket as I agree with your assessment on use.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
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A pair of quick links on the bolt hangers seems most sensible to me. They are easy to replace when worn.
However, this simple low cost common sense solution will be shout down then all the quick links stolen and replaced with more complicate odd ball set-ups.
(has happened to me)
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
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Steve
Why even bother to make it more complicated? Chains and how to use them for lowering, rapping, or TR'ing should be the most basic of concepts for a lead climber. Right after the first tenant: Don't die. It's just a huge pile of crap to have to think of catering to the idiots. Figure it out or don't. Become the first tenant.
Am I the only person ever to read the fine print of any climbing gear, how to book, or guide book?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
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this is the best system INMOP. simple, bombproof and lots of places to clip in when 3 people at a belay. In super high use areas use a 1/2 or 5/8ths" link on the rope end.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
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It all works...the question at hand is service life.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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hello Steve not to crash a sport climbing thread I so wish it was not necessary
but every one who cares for what type of anchors
needs to go to the TODD SKINNER thread and post up what was your hardest send
A daughter of the first order of stars of sport climbing should know what clipping bolts means to you
She has sweetly asked have you responded? go and say eight words
TODD WAS A GREAT MAN WHO I ADMIRE. that is not a hard Clip to make so before you forget three or four words please is there a T Skinner route that you have done that is a good place to start
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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Two completely separate threads so what is your point here?
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
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Although I have never see the set-up, I always thought the ideal anchor would be the welded-ring on a quick-link, so the bolt didn't need to be messed with...
If anyone has seen the pre-made set-up, or knows where to buy just the welded rings, this might be a good solution.
You will see this setup on some of the newer multi-pitch routes in Pine Creek. Typically, the first and last anchors will have mussy's to facilitate lowering, but the middle pitch anchors will be set with rings since they are cheaper than mussys, they last longer, and you'll be rapping at that point anyway.
The other place you'll see them is on long single pitch routes that require belaying at the top, since they are too long to lower to the ground or a mid anchor.
We sell both plated and stainless welded rings at Eastside Sports.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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That's a 10-4 on the 1096 MisterE.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
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Roger that.
Suspect last scene leaving this supertaco post.
Trying to generate revenue with "stamped" biners.
Sounds like climbers are cows now?
Bring the chains?
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AlanDoak
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 28, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
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A pulley sheave, is an interesting idea. The Petzl Ultralegere Pulley being an obvious example, or maybe a bucket full of replaceable teflon sheaves. I dunno, I wonder how long they would last.
Some people were concerned about the reduced friction, but, if my belayer can't handle the reduced friction while lowering me, I wouldn't trust them to lead belay me on my project in the first place.
Regarding minimum distance between bolts, it's similar to using a plug and feather to split blocks. The micro-cracks can link up between the 2 bolts, leading to compromised rock.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Oct 28, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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Great thread, but also kind of a bummer as there as so many solutions and even more opinions on what people prefer, so how does one choose?
For what it's worth, I don't care what kind of anchors are waiting for me at the top of a sport climb as long as they are there and safe..with that, getting down is easy.
If I was going to solve this problem, I would prioritize what you are looking to achieve. Which is the most important to ORV:
Initial costs?
Expected life?
Consistency with tradition?
Theft prevention?
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CCT
Trad climber
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Oct 28, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
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I like the idea. I don't climb in the Gorge often, but would be happy to contribute when I do. Would it be possible to "buy" a biner at the store, and leave it there for a local who is doing replacements? As a non-local, my odds of randomly hopping on a climb that needs replacement is pretty low, but I really appreciate simple anchors when I come to them. And I don't need any steel biners on my rack, commemorative or not.
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Oct 29, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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I climb in the gorge a lot and haven't seen mussy's worn through even close to half way, and I only get on 4 star routes or better. . .but rarely get on anything easier than 5.9.
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cragrat
climber
New Zealand
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From my experience a set up like Fixe originally came out with which had a bolt with a ring on it backed up to another hanger by chain is very good from a wear perspective. As Erik mentioned the rings roll around so for a while at least wear is spread. It has it's problems but it seems a big issue you have is the "clip and lower" mentality.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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I climb in the gorge a lot and haven't seen mussy's worn through even close to half way, and I only get on 4 star routes or better. . .but rarely get on anything easier than 5.9. Easy routes see the most wear, but the worst area of all is All You Can Eat, short easy routes partway down the North Gorge trail, the dust is extra dusty there and Mussy hooks wore halfway through in about 1.5-2 years.
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Old5Ten
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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I think there's a bit too much focus on the technical side of things, for something that is, for the most part, a behavioral problem.
We know that a good solution would be for climbers to use their own draws for TR sessions.
In the same breath we're assuming that can't be done because of low compliance, but imho there's never been a real concerted effort to change that. If we think a little outside the technical box we should recognize that there are many opportunities for outreach efforts:
 what if Marty, et al. put something in the next edition of the guide? Not just a bold single page ad style notice near the front of the book, but a 'branded' symbol next to each climb? the same thing could be advocated for other guide books.
what if employees at Eastside Sports and Mammoth Mountaineering spread the word every time they talk with someone about climbing in the Gorge?
what if the same happens in shops in LA and the Bay Area (not that there's all that much left)?
how about a campaign at gyms in LA and the Bay Area, emails to membership, permanent posters?
what if climbing schools and friends specifically taught and encouraged their students to set up their own draws for TR sessions.
ranger style coffee talks in the gorge on busy weekends?
see someone TR on a fixed anchor? Talk to them. Plant that seed. It doesn't have to be confrontational.
'DO NOT TOPROPE' dog tags on anchors? Associate them with a pledge, sell them cheaply at a shop, have climbers install them, give recognition for installing, etc.
what about a little speech before every climbing related event in Bishop, LA, Bay Area, etc.? Throw in some worn mussy hooks, talk about how there are a bunch of people out there volunteering their time and money so the rest of us can have fun.
ASCA fundraiser at PG in SF - give a little talk.
Fall Highball, Banff, Reel Rock, little slide shows and fund raisers etc. are all opportunities to spread the word.
design a 'do not TR off fixed anchors' logo and put that thing prominently on every single climbing website on the planet!
There are so many things that could be done with focused outreach and many of them don't take a whole lot of effort, time, or money.
Mindsets aren't changed overnight and full compliance is utopia for most things, but with a concerted and longterm effort some pretty amazing things can be achieved and if we can extend anchor life by 100, 200, or more percent then we've taken a big step in the right direction.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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I don't want Owens to change from open anchors.
Super convenient. The price is increased maintenance.
Although based on other areas, even if we swapped to all chains/rings, enough people TR through them anyway that the current Musdy hooks probably last a lot longer than rings would. It's the fine volcanic grit attracted to the rope by static electricity.
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thirsty
climber
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Well, I for one can’t think of anything more tedious than trying to raise peoples’ awareness about anchor wear by talking about it constantly. Its not that big a deal. Its not that interesting and I would rather stare off into space than “educate” someone or listen to someone else educating others about worn hardware.
As I see it, anyone who equips a route has more than done their part if they leave it with chains attached to bolts with quick links. As explained, they are easy to replace / cut when worn and only dangerous or difficult to use for people who shouldn’t be climbing anyway. Where I appreciate quick lower set ups with steel biners or muzzy hooks is at the local crags I can get to for a few pitches if I sneak out of work at 3:00. Those set ups mean people take a little less time on each pitch and I am less likely to have to wait around to get on something. I like this so much that I buy and install such gear myself on those routes. As long as such installations are being paid for by people like myself with a personal interest in keeping traffic moving on certain routes, why does anyone care so much that they are abused and wear out? Once something gets worn to the point of being dangerous it should be removed and the chain left for the lower/rap. If eventually someone gets anxious about the time its taking for parties to move through routes with the chains, that someone will add some new easily clip-able hardware if they really care. If they don’t the chains remain and are adequate. When I leave something easy to clip on a route I don’t expect it to last forever. I just hope it will last as long as does my interest in doing the route frequently. Adding that hardware isn’t like placing bolts and creating routes which requires a lot more consideration and planning.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Couple of photo's from a previous ORG thread...
Pulley idear is interesting...
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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This would be considered a bomber anchor in Spain.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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^^^Bomber until a rope in the ORG is pulled thru a few times...
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JimT
climber
Munich
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It´s Italian.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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A replaceable version of the above anchor is what I think works best long term. Jim T had some vertical anchor pictures that made me think about what works best. Mussy's are by far the longest wearing IMO. One issue with horizontal rigs is that the you wear out TWO hooks and because of the angles the rope runs the wear can create edges faster. I always like the idea of a vertical french setup. Top Bolt has a Mussy and QL for wear and easy of replacement. Lower, inline bolt has a captive pin steel biner. Basically a single point lower with backup. Wear is completely on the upper piece so you're only looking at $3 every now and then. About as good as you can ask for IMO.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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It seems you dudes are so into convenience climbing whereass Abel Gable and I, to a lesser extent, frown on such convenience stations. Get a clue, the only good way to lengthening anything's life is to use something else.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aren't people using their own carbines for the anchors?
I always thought the idea was to leave no trace?
To me, this always included the limited use of the anchor set up, with regards to rope wear.
I mean... I always thought to use my own draws for my anchor was the way to go. I bought the draws easy enough. I never wanted to have to replace an anchor that I had used myself. (Though, I have donated to a fund here and there for anchor replacements)
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Do anyone bolt cracks so as to prevent a gear placement?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Most sport anchors are retired jocks or wannabees who make endless inane comments during a game.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Those sport anchors do make a good living, Donini.
Dingus McGee has in the past described hard facing on rap anchors. Hard facing is a welding technique that prolongs the life of plows and such things. An extra hard metal is arc welded onto the wear surface of your tool. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardfacing Might be as or more expensive in some ways than just replacing the part, if you pay a welder. If you are a welder anyway, might just take a minute per part.
One thing missing in this discussion is documentation in the form of photos and such. Take regular photos of the anchors and use the photo date stamps to document the wear over time of each type of proposed anchor. Good documentation will make it much easier to see which solution works the best.
I like aspects of your original idea, TV, and encourage you to try it on a few routes. See if steel anchor carabiners are stolen. See if they wear slower or faster than the mussy hooks. It is not a terribly expensive experiment.
I also like old5ten's suggestion about education, but caution that it is easy to waste lots of energy on pseudo education that has no affect but annoyance.
I have not climbed at Owen's myself, but have many friends at my local gym that do. I will interrogate them as to their practices and experiment with them on some alternate practices and training techniques.
Will report back with photos.
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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The anchor setup described in the OP is exactly what is in use at Trout Creek, and with great success. But somehow I don't think it would work out quite as well in the junk show which is the ORG. I could see a lot of idiots ganking biners off the anchors of the easy routes, and leaving them scattered across the harder routes as bail biners. But hey it's not stealing if you just "relocated" it to the 3rd clip of the next route over!
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melski
Trad climber
bytheriver
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Nov 12, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
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as ruppell says,high grade steel chain is the bang for the buck,so incorporating it into the system is the next step,,theres crazy hard stuff out there,and chain is one of them
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Tomad
Trad climber
Ellettsville IN
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Nov 19, 2014 - 06:36am PT
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Why are people top roping and lowering off of the fixed gear? Is it just laziness, I mean sure it's convenient to just go up slap the rope in and lower off. But this isn't the gym it's the real world and therefore sh*t can happen and when it does it can be deadly. We need to take more time in teaching the new climbers (and some "older" climbers)not to ruin the fixed gear by lowering or top roping through it, but instead attaching their our carabiners and webbing for top roping and cleaning the route by rappel instead of lowering through the fixed gear. I know this means more work to finish the route, but ultimately the fixed gear will last longer.
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Nov 19, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
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Ellettsville IN
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 19, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
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The open-shuts on Phoenix at the Lower Elbow Room are shot, the one on the right is worn so far through it has a sharp edge.
We were going to replace them, but the wife left for a month for her shows, so we probably won't get back down there until January.
Just a heads-up!
Erik
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 19, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
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The hooks in those photos look like low grade, basic galvanized hardware.
If the issue is the rope and grit sawing through the hooks, one solution is to upgrade from low strength, low hardness steel to something better. As a general rule, a stronger steel is also a harder steel. Harder means the grit will have a harder time (get it?) in abrading it away.
A better quality, harder steel is also typically more resistant to corrosion. For example a 4130 (e.g., KBs, LAs and Angles) will corrode much slower than a 1060 high-carbon plain steel (4130 is Cro-Moly, and the Cro is the same stuff that goes into stainless steel).
One place to find grade 80, grade 100, grade 120 (stronger and harder) hooks is
http://www.mcmaster.com/#rigging-hooks/=uo3bda
click on SLING HOOKS WITH LATCH - FOR LIFTING to see a selection.
The hook shown AT THE LINK HERE appears to be much better for the 3/8" chain setup in those photos.
Look at the price: $55 - OUCH!!!!
The lower grade stuff, 100 and 80, is cheaper, but weaker and softer.
As they say: if you wanna play, you gotta pay
There is always some sort of trade-off between price and performance. It's an immutable law of economics that predates the spoken word.
McMaster is notorious for having everything, and charging two limbs for it, too. There must be a cheaper source for those grade 120 hooks. The key would be to find out which industry favors them and uses them, and then get in touch with their supplier.
EDIT:
The solution to this high grit, high friction wear problem is to introduce an aluminum clip through pulley insert into the mix. The same sort of insert that folks used to use made of plastic for crevasse rescue work but made out of metal.
I missed Steve's comment above the first time through.
If a suitable D-ring could be found, a roller would seem to be the ideal solution. I would suggest a hard steel (cro-moly) roller on a hard steel ring. The steel-on-steel abrasion for hardened steels is almost zero, even with some grit.
Theron Moses (TMoses) would know how to get the parts hardened, like when he has his Tomahawks heat treated. The roller might be as simple as cut-offs of heavy-wall cro-moly tubing, which is readily available in small quantities (like, say, from Aircraft Spruce).
You might even be able to fit a suitable piece of cro-moly tube stub onto those existing hooks, and it would behave as a pulley. Or, if it didn't rotate, at least the tube stub would wear, and be the replaceable component, with no value to a light-fingered climber.
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Howie Schwartz
climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 27, 2014 - 08:06am PT
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Hi Todd,
Thanks for putting your brain energy into revisiting this issue. It's great to have forums like this to toss ideas around before taking action. I like the concept you propose to get the community more involved in maintenance.
Seems to me that the the impetus for Shuts and Mussys for convenience/efficiency in the ORG has come from the local climbing population. The more frequently a climber goes to an area, the more convenience they seem to want. I know there have been ropes and racks stashed in the bottom of the Gorge for years by some of the most fanatical Gorge users who don't want to carry it all in and out every day. I don't have any judgment to pass on that, but my point is that I think us locals who impact the resource the most should bear the responsibility for maintaining the safety, longevity, and convenience of the venue for ourselves and everyone else. I think most people agree that Mussy's have been pretty nice to use in the Gorge and they are no doubt longer lasting than typical steel 'biners, but they still need to be replaced regularly. I don't see a practical way around that through anchor re-engineering, and I don't think the steel biner idea where everyone uses and replaces them freely will work, unfortunately, for reasons others have pointed out here.
I think the solution has to be to get local climbers to contribute, either with dollars or with a donation of time and effort. Visiting climbers would of course be encouraged to contribute as well. Maybe there could be an easily accessible online system of tracking or rating the condition of anchors so that folks could come to Eastside Sports, pick up the necessary equipment, and do maintenance. There is a Bishop Area Climber's Coalition and maybe they could host an annual fundraising event to cover costs of materials and labor. Maybe such an event could even involve doing most of that work. I think all of us would be willing to contribute in some way for the privilege of climbing in local, accessible sport climbing venues like ORG, especially if it were made easier and more convenient to do so. Maybe people could even be "paid" to do the work with discounts at Eastside Sports, subsidized by fundraising efforts?
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