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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
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and here's another...
"The 20th century saw the herding of most of mankind into a couple of totalitarian states, founded and nurtured by nominal atheists, which effectively outlawed these religions---and yet these societies were hardly beacons of enlightenment and wondrous things for freedom-loving folks intent on founding or perpetuating a shining technocracy. In fact, the reverse was true. The situation opened up new ponerological possibilities for amoral psychopaths at the reins of power within these societies. "
This is so tiring. Haven't we all heard this (religious spin) thousand times now? It's false reasoning based on an antiquated dichotomy, the latter being theist and atheist.
It's like a world of stamp collectors and non stamp collectors... in which the stamp collectors tediously point out, blog after blog, year after year, the violence and psychopathy in them there those non-stamp collector nations. Enough, already, it is so shallow. But apparently one has to be an outlier 1000 light years removed from theism in order to perceive this, lol!
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ponerological - good word though. :)
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Wow.
I'm have no interest in trotting out Stalin in order to defame atheists, per se, in an absurd attempt to imply that all atheists are psychopaths--- although most psychopaths are atheists, but not all. Psychopaths are notorious for eschewing any and all moral constraints ---and therefore would be expected to chose the more malleable ,situational and relativistic morality of atheism, if they can be said to be concerned with moral pretense at all. The morality of atheism is a morality better suited for a psychopath on the go . You know,so many people to hurt and so little time.
One could apply this description to Stalin . Since he operated within the dictates and constraints of an officially atheistic state , he could more effortlessly adopt the situational morality inherent in atheism and not be bothered with considering having to burn in eternal hell for his mortal sins .Christianity may not be morally superior to atheism but it is certainly far more unweildy and conscience-laden for the purposes of the up and coming psychopath on-the-go , eager to weild a form of massive state terrorism in order to make his mark on history.
With all due respect, this is such narrow-minded thinking. Talking about atheists here isn't that different from all the "talking about negroes" in our recent past.
Assuming trends in progress continue, 100 hundred years from now they would shake their heads at this.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
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I've already make it clear that my comments were not done on behalf of Christian apologetics so I don't know where you are getting the idea of "religious spin" here.
The tiring element on this thread is this constant droning campaign against religion wiithout confronting the defects, blunders, and documented horrors of the non-religious examples in history.
No one feels it necessary to defend atheism, only to attack theism.
And as far as the horrors of Abrahamic theocracies---I know ,we get it. Alright already.
With all due respect, this is such narrow-minded thinking. Talking about atheists here isn't that different from all the "talking about negroes" in our recent past.
Are you serious here? Now all of a sudden Atheists are just like Negoes. Wow, the victim card.
You don't seem to get the central parts of my argument ---nor can you appreciate the disinterested way I am approaching this subject. I have zero interest in victimizing atheists. I do have an interest in hearing how atheism can be different today in light of the awful historical record of official atheism.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
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Catching up here, still...
With all due respect this comment is juvenile in the extreme. The historical record shows us nothing of the sort. Even people with sparse historical knowledge knows this is silly nonsense... It is so wrong that perhaps the exact opposite may be true. -Ward
Ward, as dingy would say, you've gone completely around the bend with that one, lol!
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And your silly error is dividing all the world up into (1) the religious and (2) the non-religious. It's such a bogus dichotomy.
A bogus dichotomy that is constantly abused - if not by "religious spin" then by this religious nation or if you don't like that designation, then by the fraction of this nation or the English speaking world that is religious.
Again, I refer you to the bogus dichotomies of (1) stamp collector and non stamp collector or (2) astrologers and non-astrologers.
Would you really expect an argument to hold up on non-astrolger nations or non-stamp collectors nations being more violent or more into coffee-drinking or more into growing beards or running animal farms. Get off it. Come up with a better discussion because quite frankly people are giving it less and less attention.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
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Simply put -
Are Japan and the Scandinavian countries substantially non-religious?
Yes.
Are the populations of Japan and the Scandinavian countries democratic, prosperous, and exhibit a high degree of contentment?
Yes.
Religion is therefore not necessary for a healthy, democratic, prosperous society.
BAM.
Easy as cherry pie.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
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And your silly error is dividing all the world up into (1) the religious and (2) the non-religious. It's such a bogus dichotomy
Look who is talking. My friend , you spend all of your time on this thread doing just that. Ad nauseum.Alright.
"It's such a bogus dichotomy"
Oh really. LOL
And as far as religion not being necessary for a good society. That may be arguable, but I'll generally agree.
It's also conversely true that atheism is not necessary either. Although it may indispensible if you wanted to found a massive gulag-wielding totalitarian state which would brook no competition from Churches for the hearts and minds of people.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
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Sad sad news to report now.
Twitter has taken a page apparently from the Sony playbook and has dropped (banned) jihadistjoe!!! He was the Abrahamic version of our beloved Stephen Colbert (R). His satirical wit and impact will be missed. What's wrong with the world!! RIP. :(
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Look who is talking... -Ward
No Ward, that is incorrect. This dichotomy can be thought of as a tool. As a tool useful to some, not to others. As a tool to be used responsibly or irresponsibly. Regarding the latter it is ABUSED when comparing the non-theist side to all manner of evil, undesirable things found in whole nations or large-numbered communities - for the simple reason among others too many variables and too little data are available.
This sort of "ABUSE" is straight out of the FOX NEWS playbook - or it easily could be - are you a fan of FOX NEWS? and a fan of Elizabeth H, lol!
#BringBackJihadistJoe
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
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Religion is therefore not necessary for a healthy, democratic, prosperous society.
Says the imitator god ......
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
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for the simple reason among others too many variables and too little data are available.
We have the example of two giant totalitarian states, at one time including most of the extant human race, the Soviet Union and Communist China, that both murdered and enslaved millions of their own citizens on behalf of a Marxist/Communist ideology that was officially Atheistic. This Atheism was held in place by law and the threat of imprisonment and death.
What sort of "data" would satisfy you?
And my comments or this subject has absolutely nothing to do with Fow news or anything of the sort.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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LOL!!! Two data points. TWO!! From an era just two generations removed from the cowboy and indian days. TWO. It was a different world back then, my friend, no millenials, for instance, lol!
My grandma didn't have one science course in her curriculum vitae, how about yours? Her grandparents couldn't read or write. I'll say it again: It was a different world back then.
Wake up and smell the coffee, dear. :)
that both murdered and enslaved...
Yawn.
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Perhaps you would be keen to hear this: For the last three days i've been sick as a dog with rabies. The flu, head to foot, marrow to skin. All this despite getting the much touted flu shot a month or two ago. So the science wasn't so great. Enjoy. .
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
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conflating atheism with religion is a common fatal error. you can know a religious persons ethis and values by their faith - to a degree anyway. all you can know about an atheist is that they do not believe in gids. past that, you know f*#k all.
so we can observe that equal rights for gays and women suffer in, say, islamic states. we can point to the religious teachings that are uses to justify this.
theres nothing to point to with atheism. Russia was repressive not because of some atheist doctrine, which doesnt exist, but because it was totalitarian.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
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all you can know about an atheist is that they do not believe in g*ds.
Exactly. Thank you.
And it's similar with the non-astrologers and non-stamp collectors, too.
All I know about the self-identifying non-stamp collector is that he doesn't collect stamps.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
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It's a different world.? Looks like the ol' same world to myself, same human beings motivated by the same basic urges, instincts, and foibles.
But It's a brave new world because of ...Millennials.
This kind of thinking is starting to sound a little too familiar.
You are setting yourself up for some grave disappointments.
The current generations are not better than past ones. I wish it were so but it isn't .
Face reality .
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
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The "millenials" entry was supposed to be humorous, ward. Relax.
Alright, I'll bite. Let's put it this way: For every educated millenial raised in the sciences there are 5-10 uneducated irresponsible ones, say, depending on how one measures. Now, you feel better? Even so, going forward, don't underestimate the power of that one in ten to set the world to rights!
The world won't ever return to belief in an intervening god any more than it will return to the belief that planets and stars have control over our daily lives, our fates.
Yeah, yeah, always the provisional - unless high civilization is somehow set back - which it very well could be by any number of developments. Exciting times!
That's why "keeping the charge" and pushing for and preserving - if not fighting for - high civilization and its values are so important. Right?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
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I'm relaxed.
Sorry , but I have huge impediments in putting that much faith in Science, per se, to produce the necessary amount of enlightenment to correct our fundamental problems. Science is not designed for that . With your engineering background you must know that a workable part, not designed for a specific purpose, probably should not be used for that purpose.
Science is a methodology for the investigation of nature--- not a font for delivering existential salvation and enlightenment, or for an all-purpose remedy to social and political problems.
I love Science. Mankinds best invention. Hands down. But it is not omnipotent. Nor should it be.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
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Well, if it's at all soothing to you, this week my "faith" in this season's flu vaccine - brought to me by SCIENCE - was shot dead. :(
I'm faithless. (Go ahead, take it out of context, everybody does these days in social media esp.) Note it's an evidence-based faithlessness. :)
Faithless hfcs.
Just to be clear: I have many many concerns about science: in regard to its use in tech dev, absolutely; also (2) just as importantly in regard to the knowledge it reveals/provides about nature and life esp at its deepest layers - knowledge that on many levels of being - individual and on up - we might not be adapted to employ either responsibly or psychologically. Afterall, as jebus reminded us long ago on another thread, we anthropes are "just above average apes" evolved to other ends; hardly evolved to the challenges of using psychotropic drugs en mass, for eg, or the challenges of working out how to live meaningful lives in a post-carbon world (on the order of billions of people) as fully caused, fully mechanistic creatures ("What are we, robots?!") in a very resource-limited, completely fated world.
Lots to figure out. Or not.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:27pm PT
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Science, Mankinds best invention
Mankind did not invent it.
It was already there .......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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"...not a font for delivering existential salvation..."
I don't know, would a cure for lymphatic cancer be an acceptable delivery from this font?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
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"Addressing your views" is slippery because you keep trotting them out there with a kind of faux avuncular knowing, while at the same time insisting that you don't give a damn what anyone thinks about them. And when we call you on this fork-tongued blarny, I become an "Alpha" dood holding a "higher ground."
Silly old fart.
Now lets take a studied view at one thing you said:
"But when the experientialist claims that this mental state is, in fact, tapping into underlying nature of the universe - the level below quarks or whatever....that's when the smoke alarm in my a*# starts to chirp."
First, we notice that Tvash has alerted the world that he has a bullshit detector, and by his own appraisal, it is soundling loud and clear per what I am saying. Of course since Tvash has is just getting started on the work, all of what he is saying is projections - of that we may be sure. But moreover, thy are the produc of the discursive trance that I metioned earlier, and which is one of the most dificult and persistant kind of mind fogs to clear out becuase the the person in the trance places virtue on being in one, or worse, believes that he is not in one.
For starters, Tvash is assuming that eyes open meditation renders a "mental state" that has the capacity to discern "the level below quarks or whatever."
Now wjat does this actually mean? Who wants to bet that Tvash believs in his heart of hearts that "that level" is some actual place or dimension or (fill in the blank) that I am claiming to have directly experienced and which, so far as Tvash is concerned, has only been postulated by science, science being the only real way to ever "know" about such a place.
But what if the "level below "quarks" was not a place, or a dimension, or whatevder your discursive mind can cook up, and is in fact the absence of all things, places, dimensions, and so forth. This non-thing will cause the discursive mind to utterly spin in place trying to grok onto that which is NOT THERE.
So the question to ask is: What is the nature of this non-thing below all the stuff, which is markd by the infinite absence of people, places, and things? And if it is not a dimension, a place, an effect, a mental "state," then what, then on what grounds is Tvash busting out his self-ordained bullshit meter and on what, exactly, is he calling bullshit on?
The irony here is that Tvash is calling bullshit on the experiences he is having in his yoga and mediation classes but has not yet realized for his own self. Even Tvash's mind is not grinding every second, so there is some little space between his thoughts when is is down doing his bid-ness in downdog. Not that space between thoughts consists of what, exactly? Said space is not a thing. A thought is a thing. So the space between can only be spoken of as a lack, an absence, an unborn field of no-thing. Because no-thing cannot be described or experienced or known or fathomed as a thing, it cannot be ascribed any values or aspects or features with which to think about and to jude as being right or wrong.
the other irony here is that Tvash has set up a straw man - that I am conjuring a "mental state" in meditation by which I can "tap into underlying nature of the universe - the level below quarks or whatever." Then he is calling bullshit on what he has projected onto me.
Hell, Tvash, I could have done it for you.
Verily, there is no "mental state" embracing an "underlying nature," and that which you are pointing at (no thing) is always the same whether it is the space beteen atoms in a molecule or the space between your thoughts or the "sound" of one hand clapping.
The important thing is to just keep doing the yoga and the sitting and also keep sounding off like your are. Eventually you will hear your voice as the noise of a dog barking in the alley. Then the barking dies off and shezam - it happens.
JL
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
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There is no reliable cure for lymphatic cancer. I had a friend who died of same 1 week before Thanksgiving
There are of course treatments , and the possibility of remission if the sufferer is lucky and the progression is caught in time.
i meant "existential" in the broadest sense. Those afflictions and states that pure science cannot address. Cancer is a specific phenomenon. Science can tackle that, to some degree .But the whole person is 'slightly' beyond its purview.
That's what I meant.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 19, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
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Fascinating to see so much gnashing of teeth over who exactly is responsible or not responsible for totalitarian governments... when all we need to do is "step away from ourselves and our subjectivity (to realize) good and bad fades into nothing.
Why concern yourself with the good and bad of political systems when those qualities (good and bad) are just illusions of personal taste. After all, you might not like being oppressed but there is bound to be someone who enjoys oppressing you. Would you deny them?
Seems you've buffooned your way into a corner.
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