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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 28, 2018 - 12:37pm PT
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Subsurface geology seems to be the opposite of reductionism. you gather data points, correlate them, and create maps. All KINDS of maps.
It is more like building something, but it definitely isn't engineering. Engineers are famous for not understanding geology, and when one of them tries it, it is often childish. It takes decades to get good at it, day after 12 hour day to hunt down every scrap of information, and create maps.
Due to the lack of control points, it is interpretive, but not blindly so. You use everything you know or can find out about the geologic history of the certain strata that you are targeting.
It is almost like art, but you can't lie about your control points, and if you have a single one which shoots down the whole idea...potentially months of work, you have to be ready to let it go.
I've seen many geologists tell stories about that one bad control point, to gloss it over. Sometimes they are right. You have to work thousands of control points, and it is very time consuming.
Then comes finding the money, drilling the idea, and finding out if your interpretation is right, wrong, or just had limited information. A lot fit the last category. You learn from every well, producer or dry hole.
You put so many years into it that it is easy to fall in love with your own idea. That is a huge trap for science, and leads to cheating, which even if you are never caught is kind of like pissing on the Mona Lisa. Millions of dollars get spent. So you need to be brutally honest with yourself.
It is a cool science. Lots of staring at banks of computer monitors all day though. It sucks the life out of me. So now I fly paragliders as much as I can, and am much happier.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 28, 2018 - 09:01pm PT
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Mark:
Categorizing is one more way of saying this is good and that’s bad.
Ed: . . . we're not fighting the culture wars here, we're discussing ideas,
I love you, man.
I love you too, Paul, but sometimes you really seem to promote all of us getting along. I think that’s good to a point. With all due respect, it could be seen as Pollyanna’ish.
Be well.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 28, 2018 - 09:22pm PT
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Science is never an idea ........
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 28, 2018 - 10:13pm PT
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Mark:
Categorizing is one more way of saying this is good and that’s bad.
Not neccessarily. It seems like you might be projecting.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 29, 2018 - 05:12pm PT
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Mark,
What would you make of “no categorizations?”
DMT,
Holes. Everything has holes in it. Even this declaration, no?
What do you make of that?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 29, 2018 - 06:21pm PT
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Ha, ha, ha. 😁
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 29, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
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No categorizations...
...no distinctions, no context, no contrast, no understanding, no communication...
Holes can help lighten the load.
Classy sh#t talkin’.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 31, 2018 - 09:18am PT
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Mark: No categorizations...no distinctions, no context, no contrast, no understanding, no communication...
I’m surprised at this comment of yours, Mark—especially since you seemed to have done some reading in a few spiritual veins. Some nondual notions might be of possible interest.
Understanding is not predicated on conceptualizations, nor is communication. “Aak!” is not a conceptualization, but it brings both understanding and communication. Using categorizations is ok conventionally, but ultimately they are at best pointers to what all that which cannot be properly categorized (which is everything, it seems).
Theoretical and empirical cognitive-science research has always been interested in knowledge representation, because it was assumed (especially using computer metaphors) that without knowledge, cognition could not occur. (I know that cognitive science has been dismissed in this thread often, so try to bear with me). There have been three different competing theories about categorizations that have been tested empirically (exemplar theory, family resemblances, and prototype theory), and none of them have been shown to be superior or dominant. That after 35 years of research.
Autonomic behavior, emotion, and instinct have all been empirically shown to be powerful means of interacting with environments—not one of which relies upon conceptual knowledge (which would include categorization).
It IS possible to see, be, and act in the world without assuming that conceptualizations are sine qua non. Practically, one *can* use categorizations—but not take them too seriously or concretely. It’s these caveats that could keep people from getting into all sorts of self-generated problems.
People who don’t take conceptualizations concretely or seriously tend to be more playful and highly tolerant of ambiguity.
Be well.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 31, 2018 - 03:38pm PT
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Quick, now, communicate with me wthout any categorization...
Interact with the world around you without any categorization...
Make any choice without categorization...
Anything that is a thing is not some other thing...
"The Great Integrity expresses one.
One manifests as two.
Two is transformed into three.
And three generates all the myriad entities of the universe.
Every entity always returns to yin after engaging yang.
The fusion of these two opposites
births the Vital Energy
that sustains the harmony of life."
~ Lao Tzu, The Tao Te Ching
All manifest reality is binary. Non-duality is unmanifest. Duality isn't bad and the continuity is still present - all things exist in their binary nature in continuity with all things.
Distinction is an abstraction. Abstraction isn't bad. It's not the reality itself. Being stuck on that makes us stuck.
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Trump
climber
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Mar 31, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
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It always seems to me like when our thinking comes to the limit of our understanding of reality, we conclude that reality is the one who must be wrong about it. We get to a point where what we think makes more sense to us than reality does.
But the chopping block of reality’s survival of the fittest is what’s taught us to do this thinking thing in the ways that we’ve learned to do it, regardless of what that chopping block has taught us to think about our own thinking.
Think about it all you want - the one and the two and the three and the many, and all the other fascinating and sophisticated and obviously true thoughts we have. Just maybe don’t rely too heavily on those beliefs needing to be true, if you don’t have to.
But heck, if you can make a living at it, impressive, good for you! Survive!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 31, 2018 - 07:30pm PT
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A lot of times I just don't get what's posted here. It just doesn't compute.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 31, 2018 - 08:21pm PT
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Autonomic behavior, emotion, and instinct have all been empirically shown to be powerful means of interacting with environments . . .
True enough. In many instances neither the most effective nor the wisest means, however. Become emotional on a dangerous climb?
But the chopping block of reality’s survival of the fittest is . . .
Huh?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 31, 2018 - 09:52pm PT
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jogill: Become emotional on a dangerous climb?
Even this question is ambiguous. What do you mean?
Passion / drive / creativity may transcend any difficulty.
The passionless, cold, objective, calculating mind will get one in more trouble than moderns believe.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 31, 2018 - 11:42pm PT
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Wow, those are a lot of categorizations, MikeL!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Passion , drive , creativity may transcend any difficulty. The passionless, cold, objective, calculating mind will get one in more trouble than moderns believe
You categorize far too much, painting a flawed picture of humankind. I see a world where such divisions are mostly fiction. Get into the flow, blend these characteristics, and mediate the extremes. Absorb the whole, and not the parts. Unfocus your gaze. Take up meditation.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Yes, John! Good advice for all of us!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Werner is just plain mean. If it is only me who feels this way, let me know.
That said, attacking the person rather than the content is just what Ed said: an ad hominem attack. It is logically null, and reflects badly on whomever uttered it.
I remember this crotchety old research meteorologist who had this line after all of his emails:
“The ad hominem attack comes from the mentally incompetent.”
Sad, but absolutely true. We currently have a terrific example of it going on in discourse over the anti-gun activists from the Florida high school massacre. First, the lie that they were actors began. 2 guys told me that in such a fury that they would have fought me over it.
So I went to Politifact and it was right there. An absolute lie. The next day I told one of them that and he accused me of getting my info from “Mainstream Media,” which seems to say that our best newspapers tell bald lies and cannot be trusted. They prefer their Facebook buddies over the New York Times. On a point of fact.
One of those kids has been attacked for all sorts of meaningless things that have nothing to do with his accuracy. Hannity belittles them endlessly. Laura Ingraham said that the most outspoken one whines about not getting accepted to his preferred college. Like that has anything to do with the basic accuracy and opinions of that kid.
He struck back, and her show lost a lot of advertisers. It has taken down careers.
The ad hominem attack is very effective in politics. They rely on our stupidity as common voters. Adverse campaign ads are filled with such attacks. Apparently it takes longer to articulate policy, so they use ad hominems non stop.
This isn’t a science matter. It is a basic logic matter, and you do not need to be educated to spot it.
Trump’s nicknames for his opponents, like Crooked Hillary, Lying Ted, little Marco...are all ad hominem attacks. Now that you know that they are meant to sway fools, you should treat them as insults to all of us. Still, ad hominems in politics are a daily occurrence.
So, hopefully I have taught a few of you, and you can pass it on. It is a simple concept: instead of attacking the argument, you attack the person. They should be totally unrelated matters.
There are two things that people do not understand, that are of great importance. One is recognizing an ad hominem attack, and the other is the inability to understand a simple exponential equation.
The intelligence factor here seems rather high compared to say, a bar in Southwest Florida.
Ad hominem is Latin for “To the man,” and everyone should teach people the fallacy behind its use.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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If you study anything, you will take what you have learned and ideas will spring forth. It doesn’t matter if you are working at McDonald’s or designing rockets. As your brain takes in information of any kind, it will lead to ideas about how to do the work better or that gravity bends space and time is dependent on each observer.
Science is filled with creativity. So is roofing houses. With more information, ideas will spring forth.
There are a some areas of study where ideas are forbidden. Religion CAN be one area where ideas are forbidden. Knowledge is fixed and all you are allowed to do is learn what is inside a sacred book.
The Koran deals with this in its first sentence: “This book is not to be doubted.” Or at least that is what my English translation says.
I heard an interesting interview with a Christian Scholar the other day. In seminary, he learned the entire bible. Then he read the Bible in Greek. Their were problems in the translation. Then he read the Bible in Hebrew. After that he realized that this infallible book was rife with man made mistakes. He became an Agnostic, but he loved the messages of the New Testament so much that he tries to live his life through its message of love and tolerance.
He mentioned that the New Testament hasn’t a single reference to Hell. He saw where he taught that many Christians were devout because they wanted to avoid Hell.
The Old Testament is filled with references to Hell, but Jesus never mentioned it. He did talk about eternal life, but didn’t use the carrot/stick approach that many sermons reference.
Hell has always seemed odd to me. If God knows everything, then he certainly knew at the time of your birth that you would be bad, and headed for hell. What type of God would do this? It is like me eternally killing an ant with a magnifying glass.
Never made sense to me.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Anyway, in petroleum geology, the word “idea” means a possible prospect. You have to put together leases or farmouts to obtain the right to drill.
I have a fat file of ideas. Places that I am pretty darn sure have commercial quantities of oil and gas, but many already have some little 1 bops well on it, and the operator refuses to make a deal. I can only wait until the well is finally plugged and abandoned. Sometimes the well will be sold and the new operator will cut a deal.
Those are ideas. Anyone who does anything will have ideas. Every route was an idea of the FA party. So Werner’s spew that science has no ideas is untrue. Everything begins as an idea. Finding out if they are true or not is another matter.
It must be a bland existence to have no ideas. To close your mind and simply live according to some book.ty
I apologize for this blitz of posts, but I have been out in the boondocks of southwest Florida for several weeks learning to thermal fly. I am at a rest area on the way to Cape Canaveral, to watch a rocket launch tomorrow. I have always wanted to see one. I paid extra for a spot closest to the pad. The first stage will return and land 8 minutes after launch. It is a Falcon 9 launch hauling beer and ice to the ISS. I will let you know what it was like.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Base, great posts - raw and thoughtful.
I particularly liked these -
There are two things that people do not understand, that are of great importance. One is recognizing an ad hominem attack, and the other is the inability to understand a simple exponential equation.
I heard an interesting interview with a Christian Scholar the other day. In seminary, he learned the entire bible. Then he read the Bible in Greek. Their were problems in the translation. Then he read the Bible in Hebrew. After that he realized that this infallible book was rife with man made mistakes. He became an Agnostic, but he loved the messages of the New Testament so much that he tries to live his life through its message of love and tolerance.
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