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sempervirens
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 07:58pm PT
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The reality is that liberal humanism is the great gift of religion and doesn't stand in contradiction to it.
Did religion give us any other gifts that you can think of, then?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 22, 2018 - 08:16pm PT
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Did religion give us any other gifts that you can think of, then?
For hundreds of years, various explanations of the universe as well as people's own personal experiences and what they meant. Surely those explanations provided the foundations for many facets of civilization, society, organization, and activities that were worthy of pursuit (to include investigation). I understand that it may not have been your explanations, but almost nothing that happened in the past were our current intentions or measurements of what we think is right, perfect, or useful today.
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sempervirens
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 08:20pm PT
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Agreed sycorax. If credit is due for the hit songs, literature, and humanity then is credit due for wars, murders, and rapes?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 22, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
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More words invented by writers:
Beatnik Herb Caen
Catch-22. Joseph Heller
Hard-boiled Mark Twain
Malapropism Mary Ann Evans (George Eliot)
Banana Republic O. Henry
Dennett's Folly Largo
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
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Nice mandala, HFCS!
Thanks for the post.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 23, 2018 - 10:28am PT
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Healyje, some years ago PPSP warned about trying to invent your own practice, to cowboy your way through. No harm in that, but the drawback is that you end up, apparently, where you did, with a gap between the experience and the inquiry, or experiences where the two are concurrently at play. The challenge is to learn how to inquire without thinking or calculating, which comprises what most people consider to be "inquiry."
Well, first off, you have no idea where I ended up. Second, it's like saying the only way to learn to climb is with a guide. I'll leave your last sentence as an exercise for inquiring readers.
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Hey, coewboy on, Healje. No one is suggesting that you change course, but it's incorrect to surmise that people don't have some notion of where you ended up when you wonder out loud how "inquiry" is related to the subjective adventures.
The issue is not that you have to use a guide, but rather you have adopted an approach that runs counter to most every recognized method of learning anything: avail yourself to those who have experience and know the given terrain, where people tend to get hung up, and ways to deepen your understanding.
Many times this issues from the belief that the subjective adventures are not an actual practice with methods and so forth, and that being so, the guy splashing around an isolation tank or dropping into a being state here and there is apt to "know" as much as about the terrain as so-called "experts."
Another misconception is that "guides" are something more than reality checks and examples of people who know how to stay the course. Anyway you shake it, 99.9 percent of the practice is cowboying all the way. Nobody can do the work for you. So you don't have to abandon your cowboy, "I don't need no stinking guide" mentality to learn from others. The whole point is to steepen your learning curve. Experienced people are helpful in this regards - so it goes with any discipline in any field.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 23, 2018 - 11:22am PT
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A few comments on your cowboy riff if you will.
We have heard this one before and it is clear to me you are quite confident in your a*#essment. I think you might be projecting your own experience and choices in an attempt to justify your investment of time, effort and perhaps monies.
The way you characterize the choice to cowboy up seems rather narrow and dismissive. You criticize the difficulty but neglect to mention the reward. The easy way is not best way.
When you speak of guides you neglect to mention the literature from the earlier practitioners that mention becoming familiar with the inner guide or guides that are referred to as " the inner Buddha ".
What you claim is just that. A claim. You have made it yours. It does not represent anything else. Perhaps you have a Zen master or two in your carpool.
Did you happen to read the post that Jan put up on the mind thread recently about how Eastern and Western minds perceive the world differently? To me it speaks volumes to what we see happening on these threads. There is a major disconnect when the Western mind tries to appropriate concepts from the East. Especially when we make a commercial enterprise out of a practice that was traditionally segregated from material concerns.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 23, 2018 - 12:49pm PT
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Hey, coewboy on, Healje. No one is suggesting that you change course, but it's incorrect to surmise that people don't have some notion of where you ended up when you wonder out loud how "inquiry" is related to the subjective adventures.
I don't wonder how it's related, what I wonder why you turn actual meditation into inquiry.
The issue is not that you have to use a guide, but rather you have adopted an approach that runs counter to most every recognized method of learning anything: avail yourself to those who have experience and know the given terrain, where people tend to get hung up, and ways to deepen your understanding.
Nonsense. Did the same thing climbing as well and thank god we didn't come up in an established area.
Many times this issues from the belief that the subjective adventures are not an actual practice with methods and so forth, and that being so, the guy splashing around an isolation tank or dropping into a being state here and there is apt to "know" as much as about the terrain as so-called "experts."
Sigh, there are no better ways.
Another misconception is that "guides" are something more than reality checks and examples of people who know how to stay the course. Anyway you shake it, 99.9 percent of the practice is cowboying all the way. Nobody can do the work for you. So you don't have to abandon your cowboy, "I don't need no stinking guide" mentality to learn from others. The whole point is to steepen your learning curve. Experienced people are helpful in this regards - so it goes with any discipline in any field.
And there are endless self-taught people in any discipline in any field. My field of software being a stellar example of this given every hour you spend in a classroom is a complete waste compared with using that hour to hack through the code yourself.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 23, 2018 - 12:59pm PT
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What you claim is just that. A claim. You have made it yours. It does not represent anything else.
A screwy characterization, to be sure. The example I gave referred to the path most people take when trying to learn anything - seek expert advice and instruction to steepen the learning curve. Don't go to China or Japan to seek it. Seek it among your own kind. At least half of those found in zendos and such are science types these days so not to worry. They will speak your language. In English.
Anyone who knows me knows I have more cowboy energy than is good for me. The idea that working with a teacher, in anything, is some outlying "claim" is of course not supported by any sober person and it represents the normal way people go about steepening their learning curve about those subjects they value.
At bottom, after all these years dealing with these issues, what you have are egos, disinformation, and ignorance per how the process actually works. Then silly statements seeking to suggest that education, as valid concept and proven methodology, is in fact merely a "claim."
How about I arrange a scholarship for you Wayno to attend a 7-day retreat supervised by an acknowledged teacher and you can find out for yourself? You can pick the seminar etc. I have no agenda to promote or denounce one way or the other. I wouldn't recommend Zen, however, for the same reason I wouldn't promote wall climbing or trekking across Borneo.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 23, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
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Healyje -- "Did the same thing climbing as well and thank god we didn't come up in an established area."
You always claim there's no God, and simultaneously thank him.
Pretty weird.
Don't respond as we already know your lame defenses and excuses.
There's no escape ever for the gross materialists .......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 23, 2018 - 02:15pm PT
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Review of Steven Pinker's Enlightenment Now...
"As you’ve probably gathered, I’m a worrywart by temperament (and, I like to think, experience), and I’ve now spent a good deal of space on my disagreements with Pinker that flow from that. But the funny part is, even though I consistently see clouds where he sees sunshine, we’re otherwise looking at much the same scene, and our shared view also makes us want the same things for the world. I find myself in overwhelming, nontrivial agreement with Pinker about the value of science, reason, humanism, and Enlightenment; about who and what deserves credit for the stunning progress humans have made; about which tendencies of civilization to nurture and which to recoil in horror from; about how to think and write about any of those questions; and about a huge number of more specific issues.
So my advice is this: buy Pinker’s book and read it. Then work for a future where the book’s optimism is justified."
https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3654
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 23, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
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The example I gave referred to the path most people take when trying to learn anything - seek expert advice and instruction to steepen the learning curve.
From an educator. I'm not most people and there is more than one way to learn something, so that there sounds "screwy" to me. Get it?
Don't go to China or Japan to seek it. Seek it among your own kind. At least half of those found in zendos and such are science types these days so not to worry. They will speak your language. In English.
Now this sounds really screwy to me. How did you come up with that from what I just posted. I am completely sober at this time, I don't post when I'm drinking, bongwater or otherwise, anymore.
Why do you feel it necessary when challenged to either put someone in an "ism" box or to suggest some altered state? Do you think of me as a "science type", and that I would worry if they weren't there? Oh, and I can speak Chinese. Not fluently but fair enough. Where do you get this stuff?
Then silly statements seeking to suggest that education, as valid concept and proven methodology, is in fact merely a "claim."
That is not what I claim you are claiming. Maybe I was unclear.
How about I arrange a scholarship for you Wayno to attend a 7-day retreat supervised by an acknowledged teacher and you can find out for yourself?
My situation these days is "screwy". Cash poor and fully engaged in previous commitments. Otherwise I would gladly accept your offer. I will be the first one to admit that I don't know what I'm talking about. So far I'm not convinced. BTW what does a 7-day retreat cost? It better be cheap because I'm a cheap bastard.
If I offered you a 7 day "cowboy" retreat of my own creation you might laugh but I'll offer it anyway. I could show you some other learning method.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 23, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
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The truth is NEVER cheap.
But everyone always seeks the easy path and gets cheated ......
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 23, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
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Word. Werner. We all get sold a bill of goods.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 23, 2018 - 06:09pm PT
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For the sort of mind adventure JL describes, it is probably correct to advise seekers to get into a Zen program. I'm speculating, of course, not having had the experience.
There are an infinite number of mind adventures I'm guessing, and I don't know if there is a "ranking" of which is "best." Open awareness sounds more fundamental than others I've heard of.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 23, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
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Nice post John. I want to go back and edit my last post to largo now.
I'll let it ride.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 23, 2018 - 11:42pm PT
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You guys do get that there is reality and then there is the sh#t that everybody makes up about reality?
Some is credible and some is just silly.
Some is quite rigorous like a lot, but not all of the science stuff.
Some like the philosophy is testable by the results of implementation but it takes a lot of people and a lot of time to run enough experiments to see what's useful. Observing what kind of humans result from practicing a philosophy/religion can be informative. Then what happened - mostly the person on the practice or the practice on the person? Generally, if I'm not impressed with the practictioners, I'm not likely to be impressed with the practice. Exemplary humans will typically lead me to useful practices.
Some like the religion stuff is all made up sh#t cuz there's no way of proving any of it, though some people seem to feel that if the write TRUTH in all caps that presents enough proof to make it the TRUTH even though there's no evidence other than "because..."
There is of course direct experience, but then that happened in our minds and it's dangerous to trust that too much unless there's some real solid and reproducible observation. I've found it's generally safe to not believe everything I think.
Some things are easy - after I hit my thumb with a hammer it's a real enough experience to me that I'm not going to invest a bunch of time trying to figure out if that's actually real or not and just focus on not hitting my thumb with a hammer the next time that possibility floats into probability.
After having spent a lot of time and effort looking into a bunch of stuff - comparative religions, philosphies, and natural sciences a few things seem pretty easy.
I'm responsible for my speech and my actions and I have a very limited amount of control over anything else - so I'm a stoic in that regard.
If I focus on generally optimizing my pleasure for the long haul instead trying to go all hedonistic right now, there's more pleasure for the long haul - so I'm epicurean in that regard.
Since I can't control everything in my life shifting my addictions to preferences keeps me from suffering all the time - so I'm a buddhist in that regard.
All the stuff Jesus supposedly talked about in terms of how to be in the world is good stuff - so I'm a Christian in that regard for diligently practicing Christian ethics, but the whole redemption and ressurection stuff just seems silly to me, so I'm certainly not a Christian in that reagard.
There appears to be a thing called the Tao. It appears to explain the binary nature of reality and how things work and relate to one another. Oxidation/reduction, polarized/depolarized, acid/alkaline, catabolic/anabolic, parasympathetic/sympathetic it all binary (yin/yang, positive/negative, binary - so I'm a Taoist in that regard.
Sufis are cool. They seem to be on to something about the way the mind and heart work.
Zen is cool and the method of awareness and practice seems to be incredibily effective means for getting good at things, whatever it is you choose to focus and work on. Soshin, zanshin, mushin, fudoshin are all awesome tools/states too explore and use.
Tantra is useful for training to not being dissociated and learning how to be here now.
Egoistic altruism is a thing. Don't be a dick to people and help people out and then people will tend to not be a dick to you and help you out when you need it.
Science is super cool for the all the practical stuff, but also for the transformation and illumination of consciousness the pursuit of purely applying the methods produces. In that the pursuit of science is joyous to me, I am a scientist and academic in that regard.
Myths and archetypes are cool and give tremendous insights about our strengths and weaknesses and essential natures. The myths of Daedalus, Sisyphus, the Holy Grail, the Resurrection ...they’re real in the sense that they tell truths about us. Making them more than that diminishes the lesson we can learn within them. In the sense that I devour myths and archetypes and consider the lessons therein - I’m a Jungian in that regard.
It seems like people tend like to put themselves and the world in their pet box. And, then, commonly like to tell everybody that their box is the coolest and everybody else's sucks. It's fun to share, but don't expect everybody to believe what you're selling.
I'm a weirdo, I don't expect everybody to buy what I'm selling. Plus, I'm just making sh#t up like everyone else as close as I can figure it.
My middle daughter at 17 - now 33 - told me that she'd worked out her philosophy to "Be passionate about everything and attached to nothing." My response was damn, girl, I like that!
My youngest daughter and I talked about phiosophy and other stuff and distilled down to "Do dope shit" - meaning do stuff that's deeply exciting and inspiring, serves you and others, without doing harm, and expresses innate talents and characteristics that represent your essential nature. Again, my response was "Damn, girl, that's good!
Most stuff, beyond the real and consistently measurable basic stuff, like it hurts when you pound your thumb with a hammer, is just sh#t we make up - so in that regard, I'm a radical agnostic - I don't know the TRUTH and you don't either.
Just throwin' out some sh#t I was thinking about FWIW.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 24, 2018 - 07:13am PT
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The fatal mistake in your nice post above.
Mark Force -- "I don't know the TRUTH and you don't either."
Actually, everyone here knows some TRUTH, although incomplete, since we are all part parcel of that whole absolute TRUTH.
The part parcel is always subjected to the four defects:
1) is sure to commit mistakes
2) is invariably illusioned,
3) has the tendency to cheat others and
4) is limited by imperfect senses.
With these four imperfections, one cannot deliver perfect information of all-pervading knowledge.
Thus the all-pervading knowledge descends ........
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 24, 2018 - 08:35am PT
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Thanks, DMT.
Exactly, Werner!
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