The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 9, 2018 - 10:44am PT
Are you a BuzzFeed fan? Like WB here, do you impugn atheists every chance you get?

If so you might enjoy the BuzzFeed article below detailing allegations of sexual misconduct by Lawrence Krauss, atheist and physicist.

But first, the Krauss Response just out yesterday...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IgAGpkAa2vwSMOtFD4iAfwfryTNJbJ_5/view

He Became A Celebrity For Putting Science Before God. Now Lawrence Krauss Faces Allegations Of Sexual Misconduct...
https://www.buzzfeed.com/peteraldhous/lawrence-krauss-sexual-harassment-allegations?utm_term=.btKDpWbQV#.fxkLYNbQW

...

re: BuzzFeed, identity politics, patriarchy, science, atheism, anti-male anti-whiteness...

"In February 2016, Scaachi Koul, a Senior Writer for BuzzFeed Canada tweeted a request for pitches stating that BuzzFeed was "...looking for mostly non-white non-men" followed by "If you are a white man upset that we are looking mostly for non-white non-men I don't care about you go write for Maclean's." When confronted, she followed with the tweet "White men are still permitted to pitch, I will read it, I will consider it. I'm just less interested because, ugh, men."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuzzFeed#Criticism_and_controversies

Just what isn't highly politicized these days?

And who is Melody Hensley?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605888/Woman-claims-PTSD-Twitter-cyberstalking-says-bit-war-veterans.html
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Mar 9, 2018 - 01:37pm PT
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 9, 2018 - 02:43pm PT
In the mind's eye conjure up a picture of one of your primitive ancestors of cave-dwelling times - a short, misshapen, filthy, snarling hulk of a man standing, legs spread, club upraised, breathing hate and animosity as he looks fiercely just ahead. Such a picture hardly depicts the divine dignity of man. But allow us to enlarge the picture. In front of this animated human crouches a saber-toothed tiger. Behind him, a woman and two children. Immediately you recognize that such a picture stands for the beginnings of much that is fine and noble in the human race, but the man is the same in both pictures. Only, in the second sketch you are favored with a widened horizon. You therein discern the motivation of this evolving mortal. His attitude becomes praiseworthy because you understand him. If you could only fathom the motives of your associates, how much better you would understand them. If you could only know your fellows, you would eventually fall in love with them.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 9, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfqLdOgoB98

People are always talking about "enlightenment" and this guy tries his hand at it. Because he comes from a Sufi dash Renzai Zen background, which are both aggressive approaches, he's brutally blunt. And because he's selling a product, so to speak, there's that. And his timeframe for "getting there" is absurd. Maybe 3 to 24 months if you've already done enough mind training (like, years) to focus in the way he suggests. And his apparent arrogance will enrage some people who will quibble and carp about this and that, probably correctly.

But what he is actually saying to do is spot on, IMO. If you have a sense of humor and don't personalize the in-your-face style, there's something here.

A crucial part of this whole adventure is knowing that no approach, presentation or style will perfectly fit your ego or understanding. Forget that. Not possible. I've found the best approach is to take what I want and leave the rest. I spend no time arguing with what isn't helpful - so far as I can tell. People in this work don't need a bosom buddy but someone who can help you find an opening. The most obnoxious people often have something useful in this regards.

That much said, this dude has done a job of pruning away all the faux spiritual and woo typically clouding this work. Check out the section from 51.15 to 55.25. Hilarious, if you can roll with it.

But the actual techniques he mentions in the first 20 or so minutes are pure gold.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Mar 9, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
Blake is awesome.



"A true Lover doesn't follow any one religion,
be sure of that.
Since in the religion of Love,
there is no irreverence or faith.
When in Love,
body, mind, heart and soul don't even exist.
Become this Love,
and you will not be separated again."
~ Rumi

"My head is bursting
with the joy of the unknown.
My heart is expanding a thousand fold.
Every cell,
taking wings,
flies about the world.
All seek separately
the many faces of my love."
~ Rumi



Effect of Compassion Meditation on Neuroendocrine, Innate Immune and Behavioral Responses to Psychosocial Stress
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695992/

Effect of Compassion Meditation on Neuroendocrine, Innate Immune and Behavioral Responses to Psychosocial Stress
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695992/

Upstream reciprocity and the evolution of gratitude.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2197219/

Human frontoĖmesolimbic networks guide decisions about charitable donation
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/42/15623
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 9, 2018 - 06:40pm PT
If you wanna understand consciousness and to "know thyself," you need only study brain function.

who said that understanding consciousness has the consequence of "knowing thyself"?

No one I know.

sempervirens

climber
Mar 9, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
They key word here is "experience." Some believe that once you have quantified the stuff, this serves to explain experience itself. As though through quantifying observable stuff, you are somehow comprehensively covering experience with the selfsame figures, even though there is no experiential quotient in said equations. Of course we don't require a 1st person quotient to explain stuff, but the belief that we are simultaneously "explaining" or even talking about experience itself has always struck me as a strange, even blinkered line of reasoning.

What else could be behind that activity beyond the desire/need to know?

Many scientists I know also quite enjoy the creative process through which they come to quantify this quark and that shooting star. I have friends that work at JPL and when a big project is online the communal stoke burns white hot. But the pay off, no question, lies with the data, and what it confirms or doesn't. When nothing new becomes "known," or when this or that widget or rover tanks, the stoke dies fast.

I agree that that is a strange way of looking at things. I've never heard anyone claim anything like that about experience and quantification. Sure you can make up absurd notions and find someone who has that crazy perspective or blinkered reasoning and then argue how absurd it is. But, why do that? What's the point?

Now, if you're into making up things that are easy to argue against you might think my disparaging of religions is the same as what you've done above. Yeah, I expect Paul is thinking that. But here's the difference: in religion the strange reasoning actually is used to make the claim that: you must believe, and that: it's true because it says so. I didn't make that up, it's in doctrine.

Also, remember that when that rover or widget fails something new is learned. Many scientists are stoked by their own failures. Certainly many things are discovered by accident, wouldn't you agree? So your comment on that has little value.

Perhaps your friends at JPL are tired and jaded. Or, more likely, perhaps they wouldn't agree with your description of their feelings. It's just my opinion about that likelihood, it's true I don't know them. I just think (hope, really) that anyone qualified to work at JPL would not agree with that description. Ask them if they engage in that blinkered reasoning you told us about and get back to us, would ya.

Also, the quantification is another way to experience and know. If you didn't count the stars you wouldn't experience the fascination, wonderment, excitement, consciousness, etc. of knowing how plentiful they are. How are you defining experience? Is there any reason that definition is more valid than the experience of quantification? The different types of experiences aren't mutually exclusive, are they?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 10, 2018 - 11:17am PT
A "failure" in math research frequently opens new perspectives and approaches. Sometimes a technique invented for a project that fizzled is of more value than the project itself.

Your CarPool prodigies will mature in time.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 10, 2018 - 11:28am PT
who said that understanding consciousness has the consequence of "knowing thyself"?

No one I know.
-


I believe you, Ed. If you wanna make the connection, you have to specifically work in that direction, and have someone to dial in what the process is.

The question is: If you were to meet someone who could demonstrate to you how understanding your own conscious process can lead directly to knowing yourself, or who you think you are, what might be your response?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Mar 10, 2018 - 12:20pm PT
The question is: If you were to meet someone who could demonstrate to you how understanding your own conscious process can lead directly to knowing yourself, or who you think you are, what might be your response?

Hmm...

jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 10, 2018 - 03:09pm PT
The question is: If you were to meet someone who could demonstrate to you how understanding your own conscious process can lead directly to knowing yourself, or who you think you are, what might be your response?


Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 10, 2018 - 04:24pm PT
The number 432,000 is one used in a variety of belief systems from Norse to Aryan to eastern. Pretty fascinating as it's used in Christianity as the Remanent 144,000 as one third, and coupled with its opposite 234, 432 becomes the dreaded 666. Campbell thinks it has something to do with heart rate in a 24 hour period 86,400 x 5 = 432,000. Interesting stuff speaking to the syncretic nature of religious thought.

These numbers are also encountered in music ratios and in goemetry based on the 360 degree circle, and even the procession of the equinox. Even the diameter in miles of the moon. Don't ask me to show my work. I read it somewhere.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Mar 10, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
Byran

climber
Half Dome Village
Mar 10, 2018 - 04:58pm PT
The average length of a boner is 6 inches, and if you have one for more than 4 hours you should call a doctor. 6 x 4 x 18(the legal age of consent) = 432. Such is the wisdom that can be contrived by the numerologists.
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2018 - 05:04pm PT
St00pid ^^^^^
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 10, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
The question is: If you were to meet someone who could demonstrate to you how understanding your own conscious process can lead directly to knowing yourself, or who you think you are, what might be your response?

what makes you think it hasn't already happened? (or is happening?)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 10, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
The Chambered Nautilus Is the Oceanís Most Efficient Jet Engine

Swimming mechanics and propulsive efficiency in the chambered nautilus
Thomas R. Neil, Graham N. Askew

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Mar 10, 2018 - 07:39pm PT
The Chambered Nautilus Is the Oceanís Most Efficient Jet Engine


The Golden Section is art's most reliable compositional device.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 10, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
Campbell thinks it has something to do with heart rate in a 24 hour period 86,400 x 5 = 432,000


Mystical knowledge: available on weekdays only.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Mar 10, 2018 - 08:11pm PT
Mystical knowledge: available on weekdays only.

The whole point was that it isn't mystical at all but rather a function of what it is to be alive.
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