Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
|
BASE104 and Jan,
Your experiences are interesting to hear.
I did not read them but noticed that at least a couple of the 'scientific' studies of the sensation of time dilation did implicate adrenalin as the causative agent. Jan seems to back them up.
But as in all inquiry, finding that a sensation of time slowing down is correlated with a release of adrenalin raises more questions. Why and how would adrenalin affect our feeling about time? Is there a connection which can be shown when adrenalin is released during non-life-threatening circumstances? Are other factors also at work?
And how about individual variation. I once heard Pete Cleveland say, "I never release adrenalin." Probably a good choice? inborn trait? training effect? for the guy that made the first ascent of Super Pin.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
|
Yeah. Pete would remain unnaturally calm, even when sweating blood on a challenging boulder problem. Up high he was Mr. Nerveless.
After the age of 75 you will find that the universe speeds up. Excess adrenaline is not recommended. Upon the point of death you actually fly to the very end of time. Try it and see.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
|
And Raymond Smullyan, mathematician, concert pianist, logician, Taoist philosopher, and magician, wrote that he could not conceive of his ceasing to exist and speculated that after death we may continue to exist, "outside of time."
I find death easier to conceive.
|
|
Honnlove
Boulder climber
Maple Ridge BC
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2015 - 09:02pm PT
|
They should rename this the political spray thread.
I'm new here. Are there any moderators? If so, how do you contact them?
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
|
If you accept that the time that passes for you is really a record of your own chemical processes,
Well there wouldn't be any adjustment to earths orbit. So the time honored "cause-n-effect" law would not be broken. So let me ask you this, could this phenomenon be considered a nonequilibrium?
Edit: my question per the experiences of Jan and BASE.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2015 - 09:50pm PT
|
I think there must be multiple chemical causes of the sense of time slowing down. The process of hypnosis and meditation in my experience were the exact opposite of the life or death adrenaline situation. In hypnosis and meditation it takes a lot of skill to slow your mind down whereas giant shots of adrenaline do it all for you. One makes you peaceful and the other wide awake. Maybe the common denominator is that different chemicals have the ability to stop the monkey brain of discursive thought.
One thing the two experiences did have in common, was heightened vision. Particularly when I first started intensive meditation but also from time to time, colors become psychedelic and I have the sensation that I can simultaneously see every blade of grass in the lawn and every leaf on every tree. I would love to know the chemical that causes that sensation. I've been told it's serotonin.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
|
I've been told it's serotonin.
So do you think your awareness was brought on by the onslaught of a chemical reaction. Or was the chemical reaction a brought about by your awareness/consciousness?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2015 - 08:04am PT
|
Or was the chemical reaction a brought about by your awareness/consciousness?
This is intelligent question.
And yes chemical reaction is brought about by awareness/consciousness.
The soul interacts with material energy just the same as the driver interacts with the machine.
Stooopid gross materialists think they are the material machine.
The lathe operator thinks he's the machine? The driver of the motor car thinks he's the car?
No the living entity is simultaneously one and different from the inferior material energies according to it's developed consciousness.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2015 - 10:02am PT
|
There is a little evidence about what happens when time appears to slow. People were dropped, not far by BASE104's standards, but far enough to scare. The people looked at a display of numbers flashing just too fast to see. During the drop they couldn't see the numbers any better even though they had the distinct feeling that time was going slower and perception was sharper. The investigators seem to think that memory is stimulated during the scary episode and the recall of more detail than usual gives the impression of time slowing.
http://www.livescience.com/2117-time-slow-emergencies.html
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2015 - 10:11am PT
|
Base said"Do you guys experience time dilation while meditating?"
Katagiri roshi (Minn. zen center) wrote a good book about time and a takeoff of Dogen, famous zen teacher , 11 th century, who wrote a treatise about time and our relationship with it.
Basically what meditation focused in the "no thing" direction (as in time not being a thing) is you will arrive at a place where there is no separation between you and time ( you are no longer wishing you had more free time). You are completely the moment; but rather than hurling off a cliff or running it out you are just sitting there looking at the floor/wall.
Buddha said that this is your true nature and that we have become so distracted that we don't realize it.It is said that He said everybody has it and is a buddha they just don't know it.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
|
The monks who meditate in the cold (the practice is called tumo) speed up their metabolism to do that (adrenaline perhaps?) The sign that they've graduated in that particular form of meditation is that they meditate all night in the snow in a loin cloth and then assistants drape a wet piece of cloth around their body which they have to steam dry three times during the course of the night. Tibetan monks in western labs have also demonstrated that they can raise the temperature on just the back of their hands by 10 degrees F. They claim they do it through raising the natural electro-magnetic energy of the body up through the spinal cord (kundalini).
Interesting theory Mh2, about memory being stimulated during scary episodes. I can't say I had that impression during mine, but meditation sessions where time seems to stand still, often provoke forgotten memories once one emerges from meditation, sometimes in dreams later on. Other people report seeing past lives during meditation (in the west these are usually interpreted as the souls of the dead). I have had that happen also and I once had an acupuncture session which enabled me to remember things (unpleasant) which had happened to me before the age of 3.
In answer to blue, yes, the chemical changes occur because of a change in consciousness, but that change often seems to have been initiated from somewhere outside the body and mind. We had long discussions on the old religion thread about whether those are just self created and the mind fooling itself or not, and the role of random chance in such things (statistical anomalies). Needless to say there were different interpretations.
Whether created internally or externally, I think there is a genetic component to it, as shamans and ministers, healers etc. seem to run in families even when they often skip a generation. Is this bio chemistry or one's karma? Or maybe they are the same. Again, we'll never agree.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
|
Whether created internally or externally, I think there is a genetic component to it, as shamans and ministers, healers etc. seem to run in families even when they often skip a generation.
There has long been research around the role of schizophrenia in shamanism and it can 'skip a generation'. Also seen studies around its role in art comparing similarities in some indigenous art with some moderns. Fascinating stuff.
As far as the time affects of meditation, having both meditated and logged a lot of extended time in isolation tanks, I think it's more a matter of the being freed from external time references. Once that's done by any means - adrenaline, meditation, isolation - then I think you can encounter all kinds of 'time bending' affects until you either emerge or log enough time that you re-adjust and external references become irrelevant.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
|
I'd forgotten about healyje's experiences in the isolation tanks. I think that would be an excellent comparison always, to the effects of meditation.
As for noting what some people believe to be the connection between shamans and schitzophrenia, after magician tricksters, that was the second most common explanation of shamanistic practices in anthropology for a long time. Of course European anthropologists have long noted that Americans try to medicalize everything, including religion.
In the 1960's with the advent of psychedelics and the writings of Carlos Castaneda whom the anthropological world still argues about as to his authenticity, two new models emerged. One was drug based, saying that shamans must be using them which some do, and other people decided that maybe there were other dimensions of reality known to non western people that we did not know about. There have been many subsequent studies of shamans with and without drugs from anthropologists apprenticed to them and performing the same rituals. Of course in the professional journals they remain neutral but among themselves they often talk about alternative realities and things that science doesn't explain in spite of the fact that much shamanism is political theater (oppressed women in korea are shamans and untouchables and tribals fill that role in India and Nepal; there are no high caste shamans).
My own observations of shamans in Nepal and techniques that my Christian Science grandmother used, have lead me to believe that self hypnosis is the basis for many of their behaviors along with the ability to hypnotize others and implant positive suggestions.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
|
Lollie: That one has to confess to a god to be spiritual, or have strong morals etc, is a fantasy. . . . I keep my beliefs of the world and beyond to myself.
(I think you just did the opposite.)
“Fantasies” are fantasies.
Jgill: After the age of 75 you will find that the universe speeds up.
(Careful . . . you've wondered off into the subjective, John. Just what is it that we're talking about?)
Jan: One was drug based, saying that shamans must be using them which some do, and other people decided that maybe there were other dimensions of reality known to non western people that we did not know about.
I think Werner answered this one. Consciousness and matter. Get mind into a space, and chemistry changes. Is it causal (and which direction), correlational, or just something that can be noted because somebody looked? If you look closely at any one thing, you’d see everything else connected to it.
Seeking powers (siddhi) distracts one from being present. It’s like most things: interesting, impossible to finally pin down, and in the end, fairly trivial.
There is nothing but here and now. The rest seems to be the endless elaborations of Maya.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
|
I read a few of Carlos Castanedas books . . .
Excellent advice on the art of dreaming, but I never saw my allies.
Pick and choose, and drugs are not necessary.
Careful . . . you've wondered off into the subjective, John
I love the subjective and wish I could spend more time there.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2015 - 10:37pm PT
|
Blue, I don't follow your question regarding non-equilibrium. A couple random thoughts on that concept though because why not.
Equilibrium is the concept of total homogeneity, or a single unchanging value. This is what each field value, or Planck, in the universe represents, if viewed over a single tick of time. A specific harmony.
So a simple nonequilibrium state would be a hot cup of coffee in a cold campsite. Question; how would you describe the state of those planck's inside, and out side the cup? Also, if an air-conditioned car full of people cruising 75mph through the Mojave desert with a 60 degree temperature differential between the inside of the car and the the outside, would that be considered nonequilibrium? Now considering time, is a nonequilibrium between the people in the car and say the tortoise walking across the road? I think probably not since the people are in a controlled environment? But what about a guy do'in 100mph on a motorcycle compared to the tortoise, any nonequilibrium in time?
My question earlier pertained to how all of us at one time or another do infact register in our minds an experience with a so-called time shift. Whether slower or faster, could this be a nonequilibrium between either our body, or our awareness/consciousness and the corresponding environment? If so could it be our awareness is hyper active trying to get back to the norm, maybe like the hot coffee wiggling back to the cold morning?
Thanks in advance for play'in along: ) I just have a hyper interest in nonequilibrium, and the environment's ability to persuade the genetic code,, as of late..
|
|
BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 08:59am PT
|
BB, you are a smart enough guy. I don't think you give yourself much credit in that respect, but you can get on Wiki and research equilibrium and the notion of punctuated equilibrium, which refers to physical events rather than chemical equilibrium. Go do a little research on the topic and make up your own mind. Then come back and argue about it if you like. We've covered that ground.
Aside: punctuated equilibrium is an important concept in geology. It can be witnessed in modern depositional environments today, and one of the big tricks in geology is to observe processes today and then apply them to recognizable patterns in old rocks. The old saw used to always be The Present Is The Key To The Past. It still holds water in most cases.
As for time. I absolutely know what Jan is talking about. There are at least two different ways to look at it. If you are squirting pints of adrenaline, time dilation is widely reported. I read that wiki article, and saw that it was in no way specific to base jumpers. Anyone in a scary situation can feel it. I had never experienced it to that degree, though I suspect that everyone feels it if thrown into a sudden scary situation.
Hypnosis was the other way. A lot of time had passed, but it seemed like much less. So it dilated in the other direction.
In hypnosis, I was put into a deep state of relaxation, so that is why I am curious if our meditators experience it. My guess is that they would, but that is just a guess. Perhaps they could meditate for 8 hours, and when the stepped out of the state, it felt like much less. Sort of the opposite of the adrenaline caused time dilation.
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 09:26am PT
|
Time is one of Our senses
Microbes, plants and ALL animals experience time as sense,
Sleep, dormancy, time to eat, time to mate, time to die...
Time dilation, speeding up time, slowing down time; are just other "states of mind"
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 10:50am PT
|
Here is an intro to katagiri's book about our relationship with time.
It’s easy to regard time as a commodity—we even speak of “saving” or “spending” it. We often regard it as an enemy, when we feel it slipping away before we’re ready for time to be up. The Zen view of time is radically different than that: time is not something separate from our life; rather, our life is time. Understand this, says Dainin Katagiri Roshi, and you can live fully and freely right where you are in each moment.
Katagiri bases his teaching on Being Time, a text by the most famous of all Zen masters, Eihei Dogen (1200–1253), to show that time is a creative, dynamic process that continuously produces the universe and everything in it—and that to understand this is to discover a gateway to freedom from the dissatisfactions of everyday life. He guides us in contemplating impermanence, the present moment, and the ungraspable nature of past and future. He discusses time as part of our inner being, made manifest through constant change in ourselves and our surroundings. And these ideas are by no means metaphysical abstractions: they can be directly perceived by any of us through meditation.
To learn more about the author, visit his website: www.mnzencenter.org
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 11:24am PT
|
The past is a foreign land. They do things differently there . . .
(The Go-between by Hartley)
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!