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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 12, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
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The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees
Is my destroyer.
And I am dumb to tell the crooked rose
My youth is bent by the same wintry fever.
The force that drives the water through the rocks
Drives my red blood; that dries the mouthing streams
Turns mine to wax.
And I am dumb to mouth unto my veins
How at the mountain spring the same mouth sucks.
The hand that whirls the water in the pool
Stirs the quicksand; that ropes the blowing wind
Hauls my shroud sail.
And I am dumb to tell the hanging man
How of my clay is made the hangman’s lime.
The lips of time leech to the fountain head;
Love drips and gathers, but the fallen blood
Shall calm her sores.
And I am dumb to tell a weather’s wind
How time has ticked a heaven round the stars.
And I am dumb to tell the lover’s tomb
How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
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here you go paul...
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1501.00238.pdf
"Thermodynamic Expression for Nonequilibrium Steady-State Distribution of Macroscopic Observables"
Robert Marsland and Jeremy England
concluding paragraph:
"Finally, equations (6) and (7) should also be readily generalizable to chemical as opposed to mechanical driving, using the extensions of equation (1) to chemical reaction networks mentioned in section 2 [31, 12, 11]. Once the quantitative relationship between the bulk quantities of interest and the work rate are understood, this generalized result could shed light on the steady-state properties of biologically relevant systems, such as active actin-myosin networks in the cytosol and the cortex of living cells [24, 33, 14]."
I've added emphasis...
..we shall see.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 12, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
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The next question he asked is a whopper: While we can postulate a dream by way of a causal arrow from matter up to the dream - or subjective experience - how might the arrow of causation run in the other direction, and if it cannot, why?
This sounds more metaphysical than physical, but it's an interesting thought. In physics some of the equations involving time don't limit computations to the normal forward arrow of time, but these may be simply anomalies of the math model used. Ed can provide a better commentary here.
Your Car Pool may be from a different astral plane.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 12, 2015 - 02:43pm PT
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Otto says:
January 22, 2014 at 2:24 pm
Nice. Now it’s time to test this and gather data to support it.
My favorite reader comment this week
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 12, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
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I've added emphasis...
..we shall see.
And on this we agree. Certainty is so often inappropriate.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Sep 12, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
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Ok Y’all,
I can take a hint; it’s a tough crowd here. Telling me to buzz off because my words aren’t relevant to the conversation would be easy enough for anybody posting here. In fact, it would be absolutely appreciated. Many of my posts have been laced with my own particular brand of whimsy or sarcasm and I can understand how some might find them trivial or offensive. My intent, though possibly misguided, has been to try and bring some levity to what appears to be an overly serious and sometimes intense dialogue both here and on the “what is mind” thread. There is a little thing that the high and mighty along with the rest of the world leaders, movie stars, sports icons, and masters of war seem to have never learned or have just plain forgotten altogether, its called manners. I suppose I'll be told if I can't take the heat to stay away from the fire or some such thing.
No problem, at any rate, if I want to be ignored by the likes of ye of such towering intellect, I can always talk to my wife.
Be well,
-bushman/Ay Aye
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 12, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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Joh G. said:
The next question he asked is a whopper: While we can postulate a dream by way of a causal arrow from matter up to the dream - or subjective experience - how might the arrow of causation run in the other direction, and if it cannot, why?
This sounds more metaphysical than physical, but it's an interesting thought. In physics some of the equations involving time don't limit computations to the normal forward arrow of time, but these may be simply anomalies of the math model used. Ed can provide a better commentary here.
--
An interesting observation - or question: Do you consider all empirical data coming from the experiential to be "metaphysical?'' What mechanism or law would deem it so, as a mater of course. And if as my friend asked, we live and reality unfolds at least to us in one "order," for the lack of a better word, what precludes thought from "creating" matter. I'm pretty certain my friend never maintained the belief that he could think out a bowling ball or frisbee, but asking the question "why not" forces us to look differently at what "creating" might mean. Other questions include - does the quantum "create" or give rise, birth, sire, or shove into existence the macro? And don't forget, if the brain creates" the dream (where else would it be, right???!!), why is the dream itself NOT in the brain.
Fun stuff to ponder.
And Dylan Thomas is a fav. Paul. Thanks.
JL
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 12, 2015 - 03:00pm PT
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Here's my second favorite from the comment section:
Karo Michaelian says:
January 22, 2014 at 3:52 pm
The theory for the origin and evolution of life as presented above and accredited to Jeremy England is not new. It was published by myself in 2009, K. Michaelian, arXiv:0907.0042 [physics.gen-ph]
http://arxiv.org/abs/0907.0042
and again in 2011, K. Michaelian Earth Syst. Dynam., 2, 37-51, 2011
http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net/2/37/2011/doi:10.5194/esd-2-37-2011
The observation that under a generalized chemical potential material self-organizes into systems which augment the dissipation of that potential should be accredited to Ilya Prigogine, “Introduction to Thermodynamics of Irreversible Processes”, John Wiley Sons Inc., 1968. I have written a number of other papers on the thermodynamic dissipation theory for the origin of life, including an explanation of homochirality. These papers are freely available by searching for my name “Karo Michaelian” on ResearchGate. I welcome Jeremy’s contribution to the effort to understand life from a thermodynamic perspective. |
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2015 - 03:04pm PT
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As usual.
The modern scientists always just study the machine and never the driver of the machine.
Just like the foolish who will study the automobile and never the driver of the automobile.
They will show the endless complexities of the machine but completely neglect the most important part ... The driver.
Why?
Because modern mechanistic science has no clue ......
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Sep 12, 2015 - 03:15pm PT
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I don't know why I let this stuff get to me. The fact is, it's pretty silly for me to worry about what other people think about what I write when most of those people don't know I exist or don't remember even having met me.
I guess, in part, that's what growing old is all about.
My knee recovery isn't going so well, torn meniscus and severe arthritis. Even though I tried to be easy on it this week, only driving and hobbling around and dealing with customers, the knee pain and swelling is back worse and keeping me up the last few nights. I've asked the orthopedist to send me for an MRI and I think I'm seriously looking at surgery after all to fix it.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 12, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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it's pretty silly for me to worry about what other people think about what I write
Au contraire mon frere, earlier today I read your harrowing account of waking up and thinking you were dying.
I could dig what you were going through.
I had a similar experience during the last holidays when I awoke in the middle of the night to find the bedroom spinning like a carousel. Think vertigo. Think something way beyond being absolutely sh#t faced drunk--only I wasn't.
Turns out I experienced what is termed:
BPPV. These initials stand for benign paroxysmal positional vertigo. BPPV occurs when tiny calcium particles (canaliths) clump up in canals of the inner ear. The inner ear sends signals to the brain about head and body movements relative to gravity. It helps you keep your balance.
Not knowing this I thought I was suffering from some sort of fatal stroke and that I would die on the last day of the year, appropriately enough.
(Seriously folks this BPPV makes ordinary dizziness feel like a beginners course)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 12, 2015 - 03:41pm PT
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An interesting line of thought asks: what does self-organizing actually mean? For example, if I tell my own self to organize my work space, there is a decision made by either me or intelligent matter and a brain-directed flurry of activity.
If matter happens to self-organize in this or that way, is this action governed by a law or mechanism, and if so, how did that law or mechanism ever come into play, or get established? Of course we must keep in mind that what issues from a physical law is anything but accidental, but is predictable in an observer invariant way. So the idea of accident does not figure into the way matter behaves. But are we to understand that the laws themselves emerged accidentally? As in an unplanned or incidental event?
The quantities of physics, my car pool buddies tell me, are defined by how we measure them. The laws of physics are not restrictions on the behavior of matter--handed down from above or somehow built into the logical structure of the Universe. Rather, they are restrictions on the way that physicists may formulate their theories.
"The structural details of the Universe, including basic facts such as particle masses and force strengths, can be understood as following from an accidental process known as spontaneous symmetry breaking. The origin of this structure may be likened to the origin of biological structure, the combined result of tautological necessity, random chance, and even some natural selection."
But few people are happy with this mouthful. Running contrary to this is an equally wild proposition:
"If the laws that govern the formation of the complex elements and compounds pre-exist those elements and compounds, then where did those laws exist prior to the existence of those elements and compounds? Such laws would by nature be non-material. Does that make them mental? Is there some funky woo, mental reality that pre-exists and governs the material universe? Or did the whole shebang - the laws and all the stuff - just Jack-in-the-box appear concurrently, and accidentally.
Or what about the laws of physics themselves being sourced by nothing at all, after all, random fluctuations can apparently produce matter and energy out of nothingness.
Fun to ponder...
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
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don't have enough bandwidth, Bushman, to keep up with everything...
not ignoring you with intent...
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Sep 12, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
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Reading and contemplation for now, a humble balm.
Maybe I'll learn something.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
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An interesting line of thought asks: what does self-organizing actually mean?
what does "organization" actually mean?
organization
noun or·ga·ni·za·tion \ˌȯr-gə-nə-ˈzā-shən, ˌȯrg-nə-\
: a company, business, club, etc., that is formed for a particular purpose
: the act or process of putting the different parts of something in a certain order so that they can be found or used easily
: the act or process of planning and arranging the different parts of an event or activity
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/organization
the second sense is probably most applicable to your question, and it contains the phrase:
"so that they can be found or used easily" which implies that the act has some utility to a "user."
And this is, in a sense, how the engineering/scientific term is used, that is we usually talk about self-organization when we are building something (a surface, a solid, a network, an algorithm) that is of some use to us.
It is not, generally, a principle of physics or engineering, but a feature of some designed function. One can extend the concept and see if a set of "emergent" phenomena could be so described.
I look at the phrase more as more akin to "waste energy", what is that? In the sense of the human use of using energy to do things (work) there are processes that result in energy showing up where it can't be easily used to do that work... but the energy isn't wasted in any sense, even though the term has a good, quantitative definition and a solid engineering meaning. Energy isn't wasted in the universe.
You can look at the universe "organizing" things, but the physical processes happen whether or not there are humans around to view them... or certainly to pass judgement on the ease of access and/or use.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 12, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
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my one friend began the thought experiment by asking a simple question: Why can nobody ever find an actual dream inside of the brain
I find them there often. I probably never found one anywhere else. Your friend's thought experiment speaks of poor thought.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 12, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
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If life is an inevitable occurrence by virtue/result of the laws of physics then it would be logical to conclude that consciousness is also inevitable and like life is written into the very fabric of what is. That is the structure of consciousness enjoys a preexistent inevitable state as an inevitable outcome of the structure of the universe and like being is an inevitable outcome of the laws of thermodynamics. And finally evolution must be mediated by this structure.
Now we've gotten somewhere B^D
The 64 Billion dollar question; Is "Whats written into the fabric of what Is", being written as it goes aLong,, OR was it already WRITTEN and put into place to take place?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 12, 2015 - 08:40pm PT
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"If the laws that govern the formation of the complex elements and compounds pre-exist those elements and compounds, then where did those laws exist prior to the existence of those elements and compounds?" (from JL post)
Or what about the laws of physics themselves being sourced by nothing at all, after all, random fluctuations can apparently produce matter and energy out of nothingness (JL)
It's easy to slip into a metaphysical or religious mode when asked about the origins of physical law. Here's a post on a right-wing site that may resonate with some readers of this thread:
"This argument, which I hear repeatedly, typifies the materialist mindset and it misconceives what I am saying. I am not appealing to or implying an “infinite regress”—one question mark leading to another, one emptiness leading to another. I am making a substantive assertion about the nature of reality, namely that the material universe which we can see with our senses is the expression of a mental or spiritual universe which we cannot see with our senses, but which the facts of material existence lead us to conclude exists. The hell of infinite regress is a typical product of materialist thought, which can never come to an end because it can never find a material cause of material existence itself. Bounded by their materialism, the materialists think that God is merely another type of empty materialist explanation for material existence."
My own opinion - which is easily subject to catastrophic revision - is that time, space, matter, energy, and physical law appeared simultaneously at the origin of the universe . . . if it had an origin.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 12, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
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If matter happens to self-organize in this or that way, is this action governed by a law or mechanism, and if so, how did that law or mechanism ever come into play, or get established? Of course we must keep in mind that what issues from a physical law is anything but accidental, but is predictable in an observer invariant way. So the idea of accident does not figure into the way matter behaves. But are we to understand that the laws themselves emerged accidentally? As in an unplanned or incidental event?
JL
I guess Tyson on Cosmos with the help of computer generated models did the best at providing the "Luck" theory for the naive. As shown, With Billions and Billions of asteroids floating around bumping and grinding into each other. Until enough mass is combined with the right trajectory to be drawn into our Suns orbit. Once that spin began, the essential ratio of water and dirt along with the precise diameter, distance, and speed allowed for the Inevitability of the eyeball.
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