The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Feb 10, 2015 - 02:35pm PT

In context, our brain size has gone down relative to the neanderthal. -Jan

That was NOT the claim.

I suggest you re-read your own posts. Your own claim or claims.

"I never said that our brains are getting smaller..." -Jan
"our size has gone down thanks to using our brain better with language..." -Jan

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Feb 10, 2015 - 02:42pm PT

Here's the whole quote:

As for brain size, Neanderthals had an average size of 1,500 and Homo sapiens only 1350, so our size has gone down thanks to using our brain better with language.

The implied meaning is that the brain size of homonins has gone down rather than continuing in an upward trend.

I suppose I should have said, our size "is" down compared to our immediate predecessors the neanderthal.

My apologies for the less than perfectly precise grammar.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Feb 10, 2015 - 02:44pm PT

Yes, in full...

"As for brain size, Neanderthals had an average size of 1,500 and Homo sapiens only 1350, so our size has gone down thanks to using our brain better with language." -Jan

1 As for brain size, Neanderthals had an average size of 1,500 and Homo sapiens only 1350... fine.

2 ...so our size has gone down thanks to using our brain better with language. Non sequitur, sorry.

.....

"I suppose I should have said, our size "is" down compared to our immediate predecessors the neanderthal. -Jan

A well-known established fact.

... so perhaps you should have left the language factor out of it or qualified it somehow as a possible factor together with literally countless others...

that in evolutionary context puts selective pressure on brain size.

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Feb 10, 2015 - 02:47pm PT

The development of language is the most predominant characteristic of Homo sapiens compared to other homonins. My personal interest is in linguistics.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Feb 10, 2015 - 02:58pm PT

I was also under the impression that this forum is for the free wheeling exchange of ideas, not for the refinement of academic theories, complete with qualifications, footnotes and bibliography?

Yes.

And so, in that vein, I said, your claim that... "our size has gone down thanks to using our brain better with language."

is baseless...

(baseless of course being w respect to evidence)

to which you replied...

hey, "read some anthropology."

Quite free-wheeling!

Were it truly for the refinement of academic theories, etc.. I'm afraid you'd have to "tap out" on this particular one.

As very many factors quite apart from language could be putting selective pressure on homo leading to their reduced brain size.

.....

Yes, it is true I distinguish you from the non "science types."
And therefore treat your posts to a higher standard. I would hope you'd take that as a compliment.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Feb 10, 2015 - 03:13pm PT

smelly jock locker...

perhaps you're reading too much into it?

Did I post I was a phd? or a nobel prize winner in micro bio?
Did I post I want you to bow before me? or to take my words in these posts as infallibile authority?

What I claim is that my undergraduate is engineering and biology and my graduate work is in neuro. That's all.

What I claim is (1) a science education and (2) an interest to call out lame argument or bullshit when I see it.

Thousands upon thousands meet this level of science education or science expertise.

M'kay?

.....

I can say I have a degree in what the fuk ever as an anonymous poster... -sj locker

You could. But if it weren't true, it would make you a liar.

To each their own.

.....

Where I make claims that aren't true on this thread or any other, expose them.

In the interest of better understanding.

.....

Hey sj locker,

Were I to post that the derivative of 3x(2) is 6x; or a mole of h2o is 18 grams; or six volts across two ohms is three amps... were I to post that... hey like I just did... of course you could say I have ZERO CRED. As in ZEE ROW. That would be your right, m'kay. Feel better.

WBraun

climber

Feb 10, 2015 - 03:20pm PT

Anonymous poster wants those that post with their real identity known here to show their credibility.

The absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy and egotism .....

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Feb 10, 2015 - 03:24pm PT

Hey flunkie, your post makes no sense.

Zero.

How did smelly jock locker put it: ZEE ROW.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Feb 10, 2015 - 03:26pm PT

"The absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy and egotism ....."

Nah, I'd leave that mantle to those who post with their real names and think everybody actually knows them, cares who they are, and that therefore their opinion is somehow more valuable. That's textbook egotism, in my book.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Feb 10, 2015 - 03:28pm PT

sj locker...

But people here know me...

That they do. ;)

.....

PS

Jan, I imagine you're enjoying this deflection.

It always seems to materialize - just at the crux.

I would consider the sources. But that's me.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Feb 10, 2015 - 03:36pm PT

Personally, I like... Smelly Jock Locker.

Not for a route name though.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Feb 10, 2015 - 03:57pm PT

meanwhile,

Today Oklahoma became the earthquake capital of the US over Cali! thanks Base.

and Apple hit the 700bil. mark. Jus the iphone is worth more than google, amazon, and microsoft put together

Science baby! Jack'in the planet up, and mak'in it easier to tweet about

jgill

Boulder climber

The high prairie of southern Colorado

Feb 10, 2015 - 04:17pm PT

All mathematics was created by the human mind

Well, that should settle the issue. Thanks.

crankster

Trad climber

Feb 10, 2015 - 04:37pm PT

Feb 10, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
"The absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy and egotism ....."

Nah, I'd leave that mantle to those who post with their real names and think everybody actually knows them, cares who they are, and that therefore their opinion is somehow more valuable. That's textbook egotism, in my book.

^^
Post of the Year Award.

Never seen anyone say less than that duck idiot.

feralfae

Boulder climber

in the midst of a metaphysical mystery

Feb 10, 2015 - 05:25pm PT

No, Locker, I found it humorous for its dry wit. I had not noticed particularly who wrote either part, until I went back to be able to thank the author. Please do not attribute motivations to me which I do not possess. Thank you.

My attention, however, is on Jan's discussion of language acquisition and development, and its concomitant impact on an individual's ability to share more complex information over longer distances with more humans. Simply by talking. Boggles the mind. And I can imagine, in my mind's eye, how language could shift functional requirements of the brain. Now I must go find out which brain diminished most significantly, it that fact is available.

Does anyone here know how this diminishment was allocated among the three functional centers of the human brain? I will go do some research.

I remain keenly interested in the question of Free Will. Aquinas did a good job, but I think with today's new insights in fields of science, there is more to be said.

Thank you.

feralfae

feralfae

Boulder climber

in the midst of a metaphysical mystery

Feb 10, 2015 - 06:07pm PT

DMT,
No, but the "caveman" may have had drawings, props, and fire to stimulate the attention of his listeners. Entertainment. No telephones. But fire signals, drumming, other means of communication. :) Yes, I find even SKYPE to be a rather stilted form of communication insofar as grokking the presence of the other or others.

I am not sure if you meant to imply that language, while taking up more attention, would beneficially serve to free language-enabled humans from incessant hyper-vigilance that may have accompanied some small group explorations and foraging. And, goodness! here, where we all speak English, more or less, we still have these interesting and challenging communication issues among us.

And so, given this new information, I wonder if it has been determined how much the human language center (area) grew as other areas of the brain may have atrophied, shrunk, or disappeared. If it grew at all. I am only mildly curious, but curious. It is an interesting subject.

The noise to signal ratio here can be rather high, but not too diverting. The gems are scattered in beautiful patterns of, ahem, language. :)

But are they scattered through exercise of Free Will or through some clockwork mechanism which we grapple to understand, or through something else?

Thank you
feralfae

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Feb 10, 2015 - 09:01pm PT

There's a very interesting article in Wikipedia on feral children, including many that I had never heard about before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

http://listverse.com/2008/03/07/10-modern-cases-of-feral-children/

As always in the realm of human research, it is difficult to sort out fact from fiction and draw general conclusions. Certainly those articles are a catalog of human tragedy and a unique challenge to our ideas of humaness, consciousness and personality. In most cases, we would dearly love more details. In others, it's clear that they don't fit the criteria.

For example, a Native American child of ten taken to France to be displayed, who ran away and survived in the forest for ten years, emerging with animal like behavior was not a true feral child but a clever survivor who had mastered language acquisition before going wild.

Likewise we wonder about the girl captured at the age of ten who managed to become functional and literate. Was she an Einstein who's development was delayed and creativity lost who would have been brilliant with the use of language and a nurturing environment? Or did she really know how to speak before disappearing?

Along these lines, there is a whole fascinating literature on white children kidnapped in Texas and raised by Commanche Indians who were later returned to their American families and never able to readjust. Many could not recognize their parents or remember their native language.

Human research is always messy, but of the children who were truly feral whose histories we know, language acquisition appears not to have been acquired after the age of 5-7 which lead to the critical period theory of linguistics.

jgill

Boulder climber

The high prairie of southern Colorado

Feb 10, 2015 - 09:26pm PT

Poor old far[t] never got the memo that reductionism leads back to that "which has no physical extent."

I admire your absolute certainty about this, John. You and Mike have glimpsed nothing and have made it tangible for the rest of us.

;>)

edit: Just off Internet Explorer:

"Now researchers working in Egypt and Canada have proposed a new model with a much simpler idea of the beginning of the universe: There wasn't one. Ahmed Farag Ali of Benha University and the Zewail City of Science and Technology in Egypt, together with Saurya Das at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada, have presented their research in a paper called "Cosmology from quantum potential" published in Physics Letters B. The new model makes quantum corrections to a previously known equation which used a theory of quantum trajectory originally proposed by the legendary physicist David Bohm. Using the corrected equation to fit Einstein's theory of general relativity, the researchers came up with a model that implies that the Big Bang singularity never happened."