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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
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Moose: Even if you introduce a feedback loop, it still is an electro-chemical reaction. You see? We would be nothing else than a very sophisticated robots.
I would disagree.
My personal conjecture is the brain/mind is a hyper-distributed set of functions composed of both hierarchal/fractal and heterarchical elements. That taken together those elements are organized - structurally and functionally - into a loosely-bound and dynamically adapting confederation. I also believe it would be naive in the extreme to attempt to describe this confederation as driven by either bottom-up or top-down causality alone, but rather its 'behavior' is a result of both [global] downward causal pressures and [local] upward ones giving rise to whole spectrums of emergent properties - consciousness being just one among many.
I am certainly biased by both my microbiology and horticulture experiences relative to the evolution of form and function. But when you look at the extant taxonomy of 'life' on earth from viruses to humans you can't help but observe all manner of emergent properties across the taxonomy with increasing complexity. Ditto for the organization of life across the history of the Earth. That I can't explain 'how' that emergence occurs in no way deters me from that opinion - it's simply an unknown which may or may not reveal itself to us over time.
Behavior and consciousness clearly scale with complexity in either of those taxonomies and, just like it's hard to state conclusively whether viruses are 'alive', the change from behavior to consciousness is similarly hard to pin down with any certainty. My personal take is the distinction borders on meaningless, if not irrelevancy, if you just consider form and behavior conjoined and balanced across the scale of complexity.
Likewise, Happy New Year to all (regardless of your species)...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 31, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
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I have just spent the past week watching hours and hours of videos about the great apes - chimps, gorillas, orangutans and bonobos - to decide which ones to include in my Biological Anthropology class, a truly humbling experience. It's clear that our social and emotional life is very similar to the great apes and that our intellectual and discursive abilities are a matter of degree, not a difference in kind. If one sees the experiments with apes and language, it's also clear that we have changed their consciousness in just the past 30 years while being around them has changed how we see ourselves and our place in the natural world.
It is interesting to contemplate the existence of something unique to humans in terms of spirituality against this backdrop.The same issues arise but with a different feeling. Do all living beings have something we could call a soul? If so, does this spiritual quality increase with greater brain size and intelligence? Is it an emergent property or a gift of the universe? Does our brain produce it, or is it just a refined instrument for detecting what has always been there?
I don't know about others, but but for me it is almost more interesting to contemplate these questions while comparing ourselves to our ape relatives than to other humans. Religious and cultural differences and their historical baggage are non-existant for the apes, yet the questions remain.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Dec 31, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
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HFCS makes sense to Earthlings.
Non-Earthlings get all shook up.
Maybe it's the gravity thing.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 31, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
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Well done, John!
Happy New Year, all.
;>)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Thanks, Crankster. Happy New Year!
.....
E.B. White’s Beautiful Letter to a Man Who Had Lost Faith in Humanity.....
Dear Mr. Nadeau:
As long as there is one upright man, as long as there is one compassionate woman, the contagion may spread and the scene is not desolate. Hope is the thing that is left to us, in a bad time. I shall get up Sunday morning and wind the clock, as a contribution to order and steadfastness.
Sailors have an expression about the weather: they say, the weather is a great bluffer. I guess the same is true of our human society — things can look dark, then a break shows in the clouds, and all is changed, sometimes rather suddenly. It is quite obvious that the human race has made a queer mess of life on this planet. But as a people we probably harbor seeds of goodness that have lain for a long time waiting to sprout when the conditions are right. Man’s curiosity, his relentlessness, his inventiveness, his ingenuity have led him into deep trouble. We can only hope that these same traits will enable him to claw his way out.
Hang on to your hat. Hang on to your hope. And wind the clock, for tomorrow is another day.
Sincerely,
E. B. White
http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/05/06/e-b-white-letters-of-note-book/
.....
Einstein on Why We Are Alive...
http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2013/11/27/einstein-on-why-we-are-alive/
You may aska "Why God"? :)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Continuing with my ape video marathan, I just finished watching videos about the Bonobo. We are about equally distantly related to both Chimps and Bonobos, except that the Bonobos and ourselves share a fragment of DNA for affection and bonding which the chimps did not inherit from our common ancestor.
The Chimps are male dominated and aggressive, fighting to the death when their territories overlap, killing and cannibalizing the young of females in order to force the females into estrous and reproduction with them.
The Bonobos are female dominated and peaceful, engaging in frequent sex in every possible combination of genders and are the only apes other than ourselves to have sex facing each other. When two groups overlap territory, the males hoot, tear branches and posture to each other while the females and infants get together to groom and eat.Eventually the males settle down to do the same.
It is thought the difference in behavior, other than genetic, has to do with food resources. The Bonobos live in a more isolated and lush environment and do not have to compete with gorillas who forage on the ground. The chimps who mainly find food in the trees, have to work harder for the same calories.
It seems to me, the human race reflects many of the same divisions. The most aggressive people live in deserts with the fewest recources and the most peaceful in isolated tropical areas. The rest of us can go either way.
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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'The Soul'
Re; Jan's question:
Do all living beings have something we could call a soul?
Not dismissing it being part of the larger question about varying degrees of 'the soul' relative to varying degrees of intelligence in different species of life, I must ask;
would a human of say, lesser intelligence, have lesser degrees of a soul than say, a genius?
I think the various interpretations and answers to this question already have some truly perilous traps and pitfalls;
Ethnic cleansing
Racism
Animal Rights
Animal Research
Abortion pro and con
Stem cell research
Treatment of the mentally ill
My reasoning says that it would be easier to conclude that since I have seen no conclusive evidence of the existence of the human soul (spiritual), there would be no way as yet to prove the existence of 'the soul' within other forms of life.
But then my reasoning, like myself, is probably flawed. As to my soul, it would be quite flawed, were I to have one.
This might appear on my part quite the heartless argument but, I am trying to defer to my logic rather than my heart when then subject of 'the soul' and its condition versus the validity of the human life itself have been the victim of countless inquisitions, tortures, and executions throughout human history up to present times.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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If you're going to say that belief in a soul leads to dangerous conclusions, then I can't see how you can conclude that intelligence won't do the same? It was intelligent scientists who concluded that there were races, and that some were mentally inferior to others on a scientific basis, meaning they thought these differences could be measured. It was scientists who devised the fire bombing of Tokyo and Dresden, nuclear weapons, mustard gas and biological warfare. It was medical doctors who performed experiments on "inferior" human subjects for both Nazis and the Japanese Imperial Army in the War. It was doctors and scientists who let men die in the Tuskogee experiment when they could have been cured, and it is medical doctors today who supervise executions in prisons. Given science is only 300 years old, compared to a 2,000 year old religion, that's a competitive enough record I would say.
Eliminating soul and intelligence from good behavior, what is left? Respect for life in any form? Veganism? Raped women being forced to give birth to the results? Wildlife killing and carrying off human children?
It seems like society has to have some kind of rules, but what exactly should they be based on? That is the question.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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It's rather the Werners and Blues of the world who believe there are resolute answers to everything (if only answers were so easily available) and even more so insist there must actually be answers.
Again, I tie that to a fundamental [fear-driven] human need for answers and an absolute abhorrance for unanswered questions which is so strong we will simply invent them when none are available or forthcoming.
Funny, i would have said the same of you. Isn't your fear of extinction and poverty and being hungry fueling your fire to learn and question and move? Doesn't the containment of this fear come by the attainment of material things and their comforts and pleasures giving you self-satisfaction in your ability to control your world?
Do you not think there is an answer to every question?
My abhorrence to unanswered questions percolates from the fear of getting a wrong answer!
i'm certainly not fearful of the Truth. Searching for Truth is what brought me to the Lord! God said He created light before there was a Sun. Could that be True? Well we do have headlamps don't we? God said He created the universe in a couple days. Scientist say it happened in less then a second. He also said he put all the ingredients and "seeds" for All life into the earth, but they did not grow and flourish until He caused it to rain. Scientifically this method shows me Truth. It also shows me a conscious plan. A plan of compassion that all "things" must work together to Become! i think it adolescent to believe a chaotic universe filled with moving particles to somehow luckily combine into a Sun. And moreover combine into consciousness..
But that's just my opinion. i wouldn't teach this as the Truth even to my own child. Cause i know it aint 100% true. The story of Science changes everyday. Once science told us the earth was flat, and that the universe revolved around us. Where is that theory today? Theory of Relativity, where will that be in 200yrs?
Science isn't a big scary devil. To a hungry baby, science is a tool for scientist to create a bottle to bring the baby some milk. Compassion is providing the mother with a boob.
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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Jan, I may have stepped in it again. My opinion, not that it matters, is that human life itself is more important than the idea of whether or not we have a soul. I absolutely believe that a woman's right to chose outweighs the right of a fetus to survive, whether or not it has a soul. I believe that animal experimention for medical research to find the cures for diseases should only be conducted in the most humane way possible, whether or not animals are deemed to have souls.
What I'm trying to say is that to argue and to value the existence of a possible soul above that of a living organism is where the danger lies.
In regards to inhumane scientific and inhumane religious practices and atrocities both being human in origin, I have no argument there. Perhaps I misspoke.
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WBraun
climber
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human life itself is more important than the idea of whether or not we have a soul.
Without the soul there would be NO life whatsoever period ......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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We are certainly agreed on that Bushman and I don't perceive us on opposite sides here. The answers to all these kinds of questions are not clear at all for the most part. Looking at all the ape videos this past week, and especially concluding with the peaceful Bonobos, has really made me wonder how much intelligence is enough. They have enough for a rich social life but not enough intelligence to worry about the sorts of questions we do. I think more and more that is the story of the symbolic Garden of Eden. To be human is to wrestle with our dual nature (the aggressive chimp vs the peaceful chimp) and questions with no exact answers. Perhaps meditation is an attempt to regain what was lost.
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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'My Peace of Mind'
Where can I find the time,
To set aside and find,
A moment for respite,
Of such would be too kind,
To put my mind at ease,
From the worry and the doubt,
Of life's resounding racket,
So dissonant the shout,
Rarely quiet are my thoughts,
From the cradle to the grave,
To find no solitude,
To this I'll be my slave,
Could the peace for one who waits,
Be the answer that I seek,
Being all that's in the end,
There's no urgency to slake,
And an argument for peace,
Is an argument in time,
But there's no time like the present,
To find some peace of mind.
-bushman
01/01/2015
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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t seems like society has to have some kind of rules, but what exactly should they be based on? That is the question.
Antigone knew.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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apologies, if i missed it...
in case i didn't: what happened to the, i believe it was a, seattleite that was going to take Largo up on his offer to arrange some first hand meditating time?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"This is the Best documentary i ever seen!"
lol.
"I Am" is pseudoscientific new-age fluff.
Used to be a shadyac fan till this.
Different strokes for different folks, eh?
Yeah, and oil won't ever run out, all that glitters is gold, we live forever and ever, and money grows on trees!
Much better: Maidentrip. :)
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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'Human Conundrums'
What was the question?
What are we going to do?
Where do we begin?
Where we began?
Who has all the answers?
Whoever had the answers in the first place?
Why do we keep going back to where we started?
Why do we keep ending up where we are?
How did we get here?
How do we get anywhere?
When will we find out?
When will we know we have found out?
How rare is being here?
How rare is being anywhere?
When is all there is enough?
When will all there is ever going to be enough?
-Bushman
01/01/2014
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Bushman,
Did you write that about me picking up my room?
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