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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 30, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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It may seem that we are going round n round concerning the will (constrained vs contracausal libertarian) but it only seems that way.
By "we" I mean of course our modern understanding as revealed by the modern sciences.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 30, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
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^^^This was written by the fella in ur vid link;
cjwinstead
Posted December 11, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink
“compatibilists should… spend their time teaching about the consequences of the determinism they accept”
There is very little agreement on what those consequences are. The disagreement between compatibilists and hard determinists is directly a disagreement about the logical consequences of determinism. No two people seem to arrive at the same set of conclusions, so this cannot be said to be a simple problem of deduction or intellectual honesty.
reply
whyevolutionistrue
Posted December 11, 2014 at 10:38 am | Permalink
I didn’t say it was an easy problem; but it’s an important problem and one that has real social consequences, particularly for our system of judicial punishments. At least let’s argue about something meaningful instread of semantics. And it seems to me that the consequences of determinism aren’t that hard to envision for how we regard people’s responsibilities.
Gregg Carusso
In the summation of the video he said that by denying free-will and relying on determinism we could dispense of the notion of "Justly Deserving". That a Rapist shouldn't be anymore held responsible to a morale code than that of a Alhiemzers patient. Both are deficits of the societal norm and should be treated the same. Both are Effects from a bad Cause. An Alhimzer patient looses his memories, so there must be some loose wiring in the brain we should try and fix. Same for the Rapist, somethin wrong in the wiring. we give him a little buzz or pill and wallakazaam! He doesn't want to rape anymore. We simply need to find the Cause that led to this crimanalality and fix the problem there.
BUT WAIT A MINUTE
Isn't this what the bible has been saying for over 10000yrs? That in fact we Humans are born inherently whithin our genetic make-up the ability to sin against the Holy Creator. And against each other. And against our ownselves! WE WARRANT THIS FACT! There's no denial everywhere we look in Nature if there is a Reaction there had to have been an Action, and each one is Law abiding.
BUT WAIT A MINUTE AGAIN
This Country was founded under the stakes of Individualism. And because no two people see the same way, we devised a government to be athoritarian referee and log our disputes. And to hold up our Laws lest we forget. Starting with We The People are created equal in the eyes of God. That each individual is constituted one vote, and the right to an individual voice. These values/rights weren't written anywhere else in the world. Except in the bible, where Jesus taught God's will is for each and every one of us to be saved. And that its up to each of us to find Him. That WHOSOEVER belive in Him! Not who's religion, or who's culture, or who's country, But Who Ever! That pretty much leaves a pathway for Free-will, to us spiritualist anyway. Knowing some would disagree, we had the government write it down and take lots of pictures of it. Lest you forget
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
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Absolutely. Unless of course, there's actually more than a bit of 'some-thing-ness' to all that 'no-thing-ness'.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
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Yes ..... most modern people have consciousness mostly turned off.
This why they they have no free will and believe there is no such thing.
When consciousness is fully ON then LIFE actually fully manifests .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
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Well, then thank goodness we're not one of them...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
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Consciousness is very very difficult for modern people and science to understand because it's so simple and simultaneously so complex .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 30, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
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Absolutely. Unless of course, there's actually more than a bit of 'some-thing-ness' to all that 'no-thing-ness'.
Healyge, while trying to be glib, accidentally got it right.
No thing and some thing stand in perfect balance/opposition, like day and night, positive and negatgive, and any of the other opposites we find in reality. Again, the basic tennet is:
Emptiness (no thing/unborn/infinite) is form (some thing/manifest/finite), and form is emptiness - exactly.
IOWs, neither is stand-alone, and any effort to look at one in absolute terms is whiffing at the plate, so to speak.
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2014 - 09:54pm PT
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Healyje: Absolutely.
UPI is a questionable research outlet. Did you see what other stories are there in this “publication?”
*“Shocking! What the Government Does Not Want You to Know?”
*Here are 25 of the most gorgeous cheerleaders on NFL sidelines”
*”16 celebs who ruined their faces beyond repair”
*”UK researchers plan to grow lettuce on Mars”
*”Rhesus monkeys in Puerto Rico remain vital to research”
*”FWS to review status to monarch butterfly”
As for the “research,” you think a sample of 1 allows you to generalize to a finding of truth?
The report is a bit short on the approach and content of the research. One might also conclude that if the heart is stopped, so would consciousness.
The blurb ends with: "Ultimately, if we know how consciousness is created and which parts of the brain are involved then we can understand who has it and who doesn't," said Koch. "Do robots have it? Do fetuses? Does a cat or dog or worm? This study is incredibly intriguing but it is one brick in a large edifice of consciousness that we're trying to build."
I’ll bet that even you could find a few problems with the research, much less the reporting of it.
(What’s your background, by the way?)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 30, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
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holy cheeseburger! i wanna say that again;
"Emptiness (no thing/unborn/infinite) is form (some thing/manifest/finite), and form is emptiness - exactly."
i don't know if thats gonna help Base though?
and what the heck is IOW meaning
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2014 - 12:28am PT
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Did you see what other stories are there in this “publication?”
Sure, here you go: http://bit.ly/1vFnKXp (Thanks Ed, beat me to it...)
What’s your background, by the way?
Discursive: arborist, roofer, carpenter, photojournalist (Time, Life, AP, UPI, Reuters, NYT), teacher (BS), horticulturist (BS) and, since '84, software engineer with more than a smattering of microbiology, genetics and architecture along the way. Your basic punter in other words, like many others here.
My general point about meditation and 'no-thing-ness' - by its very nature and our relationship to it - is that it's an inescapable matter of diminishing returns. Sure, you can abandon this material world and devote your life wholly to such a practice / pursuit, but it's a trade-off like any other - with diminishing returns relative to what is sacrificed depending on your point of view. It's like devoting yourself to climbing 5.21, running a 3 minute mile, or holding your breath for 30 minutes: fabulous practice for sure, but with diminishing returns as each has its own 'limits approaching infinity'. Spending time with 'no-thing-ness' is no different.
And I'm no stranger to meditation (and isolation tanks) having over time developed enough control for several doctors to chastise their staff for sedating me without their permission on checking my pre-op vitals; only they hadn't sedated me. And that part of my 'spiritual' journey I value greatly. But at a certain point, I decided to turn and take a different path. One which some might consider a more difficult path: finding the 'no-thing-ness' and the infinite alike in the everyday moments of a 'normal' [discursive] life. I have personally found that approach more enriching and 'enlightening' than my previous meditative dedications (and quite utilitarian on lead).
Personally, I totally reject the dogma I see a lot of here relative to the idea 'no-thing-ness' experience, growth or 'enlightenment' require 'best', 'ancient' or rigid [institutionalized] practices or paths. It's akin to saying you can only become a good climber this way or that - complete and utter poppycock at best; potential-quashing at worst.
YMMV...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 31, 2014 - 07:40am PT
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Law 45...
"Preach the need for change, but never reform too much at once."
"Everyone understands the need for change in the abstract, but on the day-to-day level people are creatures of habit. Too much innovation is traumatic, and will lead to revolt."
The 48 Laws of Power
Robert Greene
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 31, 2014 - 08:04am PT
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Ed and my friends:
You actually read these?
http://www.rifters.com/real/articles/Koubeissi-et-al_Electrical-stimulation-disrupts-consciousness.pdf
Again, one case. It’s my experience that if you want to make an argument from one case study, you need A LOT of qualitative description of situation, history, and variables for an analysis. I’m a little bit surprised that this got published. This is a 3-page article.
http://biad02.uthscsa.edu/pubs/KurthBSF10.pdf
“we performed activation-likelihood-estimation (ALE) meta-analyses of 1,768
functional neuroimaging experiments.”
A meta analysis is looking for broad directions. They usually are surveys of a field looking to resolve unresolved disagreements using statistical correlations. It means the field is obviously confused. (Perhaps someone from the medical research field will say that I’m wrong about this.) The need for a meta analysis suggest that specific research studies cannot be or have not yet properly formulated a theory with constructs to trap empirical dynamics. But over the entire field, there exists a preponderance of studies. Sort of like a shot-group.
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royptb/360/1458/1271.full.pdf
“There is an approximate consensus among scholars who speculate on the neuronal basis of consciousness that its correlate must involve some form of cooperative activity. . . .”
“Approximate” . . . “speculate” . . . “correlate” . . . “must”. . . .
Please.
Say what you know.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 31, 2014 - 08:08am PT
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Accept it, MikeL, you're just not into science.
It's all good. People are different.
Oprah's not into rockclimbing, for example,
and I'm not into Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift,
and MikeL's not into science.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2014 - 08:14am PT
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You're so sooooo full of sh!t HFCS as usual ....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 31, 2014 - 08:26am PT
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Say what you know.
You often advise us to look at our own experience. That's all the on/off switch researchers did. They report what they did and what they saw. That much was interesting. Their interpretation of what they saw moved into speculation, but that has its place, too. A study of a single person is worth publication when the finding is as novel as it was, here. Also, the tie-in to the Crick & Koch proposal for a function of the claustrum makes the case interesting.
Thanks, healyje. It is good to be reminded of the great variety of events, experiences, and ambitions we encounter in life. Meditation has its place among those, and spreading the word is good, but preaching will not convert the unbelievers. Living in rough balance with life's many demands and helping people in need is a better way to influence others, but not easy when you are a climber.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 31, 2014 - 08:29am PT
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Robert Greene's The 48 Laws of Power is considered a modern version of The Prince. Didn't you read/ study The Prince in school at some point, eg, to get to know (to gain insight into) how the Iagos of the world operate? So it has its place. (The very reason I have to study it, btw.)
“The New Yorker described Greene’s original book as a manual on “how to be a creep”.
And yet you can see just about all these "Laws of Power" reflected in today's world, in human nature and its expression...
...in WB's posts for example.
Go figure. ;)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2014 - 08:32am PT
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healyje
"One which some might consider a more difficult path: finding the 'no-thing-ness' and the infinite alike in the everyday moments of a 'normal' life."
Yes this is the more correct path .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 31, 2014 - 08:40am PT
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.... finding the 'no-thing-ness' and the infinite alike in the everyday moments of a 'normal' [discursive] life.
---
This is a common conclusion to someone who has invented their own practice, what we call "cowboy" enlightenment. He's gonna do it his way, in the "real" world and to heck with all those duffers...
No harm in that. We ALL do it our own way. But if she would have gotten some good instruction from the get-go, the idea that "normal discursive life" is somehow different than "no-thing-ness" would have been routed out, and her preference for doig the practice this way or that would have faded as well. That's just the ego deciding how to do it, that this is "better," and so forth.
The advantage of a group and instructors is the same as any teaching model involving experts and classrooms and a course of study and exams and testing and so forth. It's thorough and addresses our blind spots. Alone, the idea of seeking a power greater than our own small self, is mostly lost on us. WE will do it, all by our own selves!
Fact is, most of us Rambo it most of the time, but get into the group at least once a day just to stay honest and to participate in somethng bigger than ourselves. It helps breed humility, whereas Ramboing it helps breed reliance on our small self - not so good for defiant folks like me.
Happy New Years.
JL
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