The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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WBraun

climber
Oct 14, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
MikeL -- "Reality is what each of us makes of it in our minds."

Not true.

What each of us makes of it in our minds is only a partial distorted projection of reality.

Only when the individual dovetails their own mind with the complete whole can reality be understood.

The gross materialists never dovetail nor do they even know how.

That is why they are ultimately so clueless and incomplete .....
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 14, 2018 - 10:54pm PT

Yes...
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 16, 2018 - 10:24am PT
Duck: What each of us makes of it in our minds is only a partial distorted projection of reality. Only when the individual dovetails their own mind with the complete whole can reality be understood.

And who here can make that claim knowingly, you know . . . as they *see it* in their own life? (Who’s liberated?)

What can be seen personally in many ways and in reading literature in sociology, psychology, anthropology, etc. that there is a lot of evidence that projections are ubiquitous. There is no intellectual or conceptual sanctuary where one can see the truth of “what this is” without an immense amount of self-inspection and self-reflection. What goes around comes around, . . . yea, even in every hallowed hall of science: projections abound. Postmodernists have simply made the intellectual observations and claims that there is no privileged place of seeing *what the truth is.*

For most everyone on the planet, a person’s truth is personal and within one’s own consciousness.

Sometimes it pays to read a little bit in a vein of conversation. Making assessments without reading or direct experiences in a topic area tends to be regarded as stupid and ignorant. Look at detailed observations among any two people of a so-called single event, and note how those observations are different as given (without coaching) by those two people. What is the truth that they’ve experienced and reported?

jogill

climber
Colorado
Oct 16, 2018 - 10:28am PT
That's true. In jury trials multiple witness testimonies can vary considerably.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 07:49am PT
Prominent evangelical leader on Khashoggi crisis: let’s not risk “$100 billion worth of arms sales”



“we’ve got an arms deal that everybody wanted a piece of…it’ll be a lot of jobs, a lot of money come to our coffers. It’s not something you want to blow up willy-nilly.” -Pat Robertson

So that's religious leadership nowadays.

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/17/17990268/pat-robertson-khashoggi-saudi-arabia-trump-crisis

...

Audio Offers Gruesome Details of Jamal Khashoggi Killing, Turkish Official Says
New York Times, 17 Oct 2018

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/world/europe/turkey-saudi-khashoggi-dismember.html

...


An arms deal, it is. Not buildings and bridges and not medicine and health care. Disgusting af, imo.

A President Kowtowing to a Mad Prince
Nicholas Kristof

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/opinion/khashoggi-saudi-arabia-trump.html
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 18, 2018 - 08:11am PT
Pat Robertson’s comments are right in line with the pervasive hypocrisy of the religious right...they completely lack a moral compass.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Oct 18, 2018 - 08:59am PT
An arms deal, it is. Not buildings and bridges and not medicine and health care. Disgusting af, imo.

Yeah, and who figured out how to build all those exotic, high tech weapons? Religious leaders? Doubtful.

Condemning religion because of Pat Robinson is like condemning science because of Dr. Mengele.

As for Post Modernism, you have to remember that P.M. theory is largely a result of the failure of Modernism with its cold, rigid reductivism. A perfect example/metaphor being modernist architecture with its anonymous facades and cold efficiency (Brasilia) that cannot age with any charm and instead only demonstrates its own fallible decay. What did you expect?
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:09am PT
That is a disgusting perspective from Pat Robertson! Hardly surprising from that one, however. About as holy as my door mat.

That said I appreciate Paul's observation
Condemning religion because of Pat Robinson is like condemning science because of Dr. Mengele.

DMT
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:20am PT
True....but I do believe that Robertson speaks for a large number of the religious right, which, thankfully, is a minority portion of religious people.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:22am PT
Sadly I think you are correct. Never let god get in the way of a good arms deal!

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:27am PT
It's an awful comparison, either a result of confusion or else devised to confuse. Not unlike the statement "atheism is just another religion."***

Mengele abused science (in different terms, he abused knowledge, education, information). Mengele was an abuser of science.

Aware of the full nature and history of religion (its outdatedness, its stagnancy, its supernaturalism and superstitions, its abuses over the centuries) you really think Robertson is only an abuser of religion? [edit: you really think Robertson is the only abuser here, and not religion too?]

When an innovation (in life guidance and community) comes along that replaces religion as it's plainly known, it will be lights out for the latter.

But of course the PaulR's of the world, we can expect, will simply resort to calling it "just another religion" despite it being science-based, science-respecting and not relying on a personal intervening deity at all. Good luck to them in their religion-saving and face-saving attempts.


*** You've probably heard it before, it's pretty common now: Atheism's just another religion in the way abstinence is just another sexual position.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:29am PT
Paul can defend his own points, however

you really think Robertson is only an abuser of religion

I dunno about 'only' but yes he is an abuser of religion, too.

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 09:47am PT
re: religion, science and points of fault

Condemning religion because of Pat Robinson is like condemning science because of Dr. Mengele.

(1) Arts and sciences respecting moderns (like hfcs) criticize (condemn) religion because of its basic nature: foremost, its appeal to intervening gods and theology as a conceptual foundation.

(2) The fault's in Robertson. And given religion's basic nature, the fault's in religion.

(3) and regarding science, the fault's in Mengele; and given science's basic nature, the fault's in Mengele.


We all have our viewpoints. May the best prevail.

...

you really think Robertson is only an abuser of religion

Yeah, I should more closely recheck my posts sometimes before posting.

Better: You really think Robertson in the Robertson-religion couplet is the only abuser? You really think religion itself gets the free pass? Perhaps we have different definitions and epistemology of just what "religion" is then.

...

Condemning religion because of Pat Robinson...

By the way, who is condemning religion BECAUSE of Pat Robertson? Religion's criticized ("condemned") for its basic nature. In contrast, Robertson's criticized as an example of religious leadership (absence thereof?) in this case for his stance in the KSA Khashoggi affair.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Oct 18, 2018 - 12:09pm PT
By the way, who is condemning religion BECAUSE of Pat Robertson? Religion's criticized ("condemned") for its basic nature. In contrast, Robertson's criticized as an example of religious leadership (absence thereof?) in this case for his stance in the KSA Khashoggi affair.

So that's religious leadership nowadays.

Better: so that’s (a) single aberrant religious leader today. He is a single religious leader who thinks that most Catholics, Pentecostals, Quakers, Mormons, and a variety of other sects are all going to eternal damnation as heretics.

You don’t like religion because it lacks the historical and scientific accuracy you claim gives us the only viable understanding of reality possible when the “reality” is that religion communicates and promotes a reconciliation with being that science is simply incapable of. I don’t dismiss science and I think it’s just plain myopic to dismiss religion as well.

Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Oct 18, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
Pat Robertson was also advocating assassinating Hugo Chavez at one point. Religions are authoritarian and put loyalty and obedience above all else. Anyone thinking for themselves is a heretic and goes to hell for it. Of course along with the threat of hell is the promise of immortality. Just imagine thinking you're Gods representative on earth, able to discern great truths from ancient texts - too bad its all bullsh#t. No one should be surprised when they abuse their authority and rape little boys.

Trump

climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
We all have our viewpoints. May the best prevail.

So far the human way of creating viewpoints seems to be doing pretty well.

And that way - the way that has given us religion, and racism, and sexism, and science - doesn’t seem to be going away any time soon. Or maybe it does.

May the best (race gender species viewpoint) prevail!

Or make up your own rules, and hope they prevail. Science and men and whites seem to be doing pretty well at the present, but we’ll see what the future brings. The dinosaurs were doing pretty well too, until they weren’t.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Oct 18, 2018 - 02:43pm PT
but we’ll see what the future brings.

No, for the most part we will not see what the future brings.

DMT
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Oct 18, 2018 - 03:05pm PT
Don Paul: Religions are authoritarian and put loyalty and obedience above all else. Anyone thinking for themselves is a heretic and goes to hell for it. Of course along with the threat of hell is the promise of immortality. Just imagine thinking you're Gods representative on earth, able to discern great truths from ancient texts - too bad its all bullsh#t. No one should be surprised when they abuse their authority and rape little boys.

I suppose anyone can say anything about any group. Republicans, Democrats, politicians, teachers, academics, business leaders, nuns, urban planners, dog walkers, handymen, . . . they all have some authority and lord it over others.

No one should be surprised by anything at all. . . unless one were to hold no interpretations or characterizations or generalizations . . . then one would be surprised all the time.

It must be comforting to have so many opinions about so many things. Prosecutor, judge, and jury.
Trump

climber
Oct 18, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
No, for the most part we will not see what the future brings.

My viewpoint is to try to take a pretty expansive view of we, but I like your viewpoint too.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Oct 18, 2018 - 03:55pm PT
Righteous indignation vs Geopolitics? Moral accountability vs $7 gasoline? Regime change vs anti-Iranian alliance?

Remember where those 9/11 terrorists came from. Iraq, right?

Why on earth did the journalist freely enter a Saudi embassy when he had made a mortal enemy of MBS? Answer (Wiki):

"Khashoggi was last seen going inside the main entrance of the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul on 2 October 2018, in order to obtain a document that proved he was divorced.[12] This document would allow him to marry his fiancée, Hatice Cengiz, a Turkish citizen, who waited outside."

A fateful decision.

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