The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 1, 2018 - 09:48am PT
HFCS: Change is often imperceptible until there's a step-change. And then bam. Other times, it's imperceptible throughout until whatever it is that's changed no longer exists.


With all due respect (because you seem to be involved), one who makes this claim may not be paying very close attention to what's transpiring in front of them. Even with one's eyes closed, one can see non-stop change afoot in everything.

The claim (from others you've pointed to) is a sure sign of a reduction, a model, a simplification of how things are. What does not change? (What does not change is "no thing.")
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 1, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
The no-thing that does not change remains a total conundrum so long as we are looking at any thing, object, or phenomenon "out there."

We are often warned that introspection is a faulty method of inquiry, open to woo and mistakes and illusions, but note this change is ALWAYS about "things" that are better studied by way of instruments and math models.

Changeless, unborn phenomenon are not victim of this charge for obvious reasons, but those trying to discover same generally want some form of thing or object to prove "there is such a thing," when we've said all along there is NO THING.

The rub is that all of our common sense is geared to answer the "what is this" by referencing some thing or force we can measure or detect from an imagined 3rd person perspective, Nagel's view from nowhere.
Even direct criticism in the form of - You only think there is something called subjectivity or experience, betrays out rational minds yin to consider "real" only what we can get hold of through sense data.


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 9, 2018 - 09:48am PT
It's time we broadened our conception of "public service." In this day and age it should include more - way more - than what politicians do. Case in point:

re: the absurdity of virgin testing



"You simply cannot look a woman between her legs and read her sexual story."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBQnQTkhsq4

re: sexual oppression of women

"It's a question of cultural and religious control of women's sexuality, and that is much harder to change. But we must try."

Thanks, lady doctors. In my book, you are, among your other identities, also... public service champs.

It's time we broadened our conception of "public service."

Its enunciation, too.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 10, 2018 - 08:34am PT
"Forms of scholarship that deny evidence, that deny truth, that deny the importance of facts, even when performed in the name of good, are dangerous, not only to science and to ethics but to democracy."

Alice Dreger



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD6EVe87w1c



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8C9LcHbvjI

Why I Asked Not to Be in That New York Times Article
http://alicedreger.com/IDW

re: "the intellectual dark web" (idw)

"An alliance of heretics is making an end run around the mainstream conversation. Should we be listening?"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/opinion/intellectual-dark-web.html
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 10, 2018 - 08:49am PT
HFCS (channeling someone): "Forms of scholarship that deny evidence, that deny truth, that deny the importance of facts, even when performed in the name of good, are dangerous, not only to science and to ethics but to democracy."

Right. Let's cut open dialogue from the underpinning of democracy.

Bring in the philosopher king.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 10, 2018 - 10:11am PT
It's a privilege to live in this special time and to have the opportunities it affords to learn via books, internet, youtube and all (that at least some of us have). If anything inspires me to want to live to 200 years or longer as long as I'm in good health, it's this privilege and opportunity - esp as seen and contemplated against the backdrop of our histories (ancient, medieval, evolutionary) which were so remarkably different.

I just got the book, Galileo's Middle Finger (2015), by Alice Dreger - it was very cool, I thought, that her dedication reads...

FOR KEPLER, who saved his mother.

This reminded me of where I first learned about this. So long ago now. From Carl Sagan's Cosmos series in which, in part, he describes the life and times and difficulties of Kepler.

I thought a refresh re this vignette would be cool and found this on youtube...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CE4owAfDow

"FOR KEPLER, who saved his mother."

Perfect.

...

Ouch.

"21 Lessons strikes me as almost completely worthless." -Dominic Sandbrook

21 Lessons for the 21st Century
By Yuval Noah Harari

https://literaryreview.co.uk/get-with-the-programme


...

Here's a thought. What MORE is science? ANS It's the idea, custom or practice (or all the above) of testing claims about cause n effect (causation) by controlling the setting, variables, conditions.

So what do we have then? A conception of science - as a practice - in terms of cause n effect.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 11, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
Vancouver!



https://youtu.be/t2LVjlV-cq4

Armin Navabi, way to go. In my book, you are another public service champion!

PS

Thanks for reminding us Vancouver is so very cool and enlightened, too.

...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlyuSwRSVHU

Success. Awesome.

...

Ann Druyan, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Brannon Braga... Cosmos III
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E68FbI4Tz2I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Vavilov

...

What if...



#womensart
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 16, 2018 - 09:15am PT
Under the couple's recent blog entries, comments poured in from fellow-travellers and others simply inspired by the pair's dedication to studying humanity, and their conviction that, while "badness exists… by and large, humans are kind. Self-interested sometimes, myopic sometimes, but kind. Generous and wonderful and kind. No greater revelation has come from our journey than this."



Simply Cycling...
http://www.simplycycling.org/

So many opposing povs in today's world...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/were-the-american-cyclists-killed-in-tajikistan-naive-for-traveling-there/2018/08/14/f8212ca8-9b36-11e8-b60b-1c897f17e185_story.html?utm_term=.caaa8e54ad06

Millennial Couple Bikes Near ISIS Territory to Prove ‘Humans Are Kind’ and Gets Killed

https://www.pluralist.com/posts/1824-millennial-couple-bikes-near-isis-territory-to-prove-humans-are-kind-and-gets-killed

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/07/world/asia/islamic-state-tajikistan-bike-attack.html

"Asked why they had quit their office jobs and set off on a biking journey around the world, the young American couple offered a simple explanation: They had grown tired of the meetings and teleconferences, of the time sheets and password changes."

https://www.instagram.com/p/Blp3HPLhyPa/?taken-by=simplycycling

"So many self-righteous comments along the lines of ‘Well, they should have been more careful about their choice of vacation destinations.’

People have different levels of risk tolerance, okay? This adventurous young couple took a gamble and, sadly, lost. Bad things happen sometimes.

As a woman, I’ve travelled in Europe, S. America, Asia and Egypt. Alone. Yes, I knew there was some element of risk. I’ve been followed by strange men at night. I was robbed at gunpoint in my hotel. I’ve fallen very ill and had to rely on strangers to take care of me. But when I finally do leave this life, I’ll go out with the satisfaction of knowing that I’ve seen much more of this fascinating planet than I would have if I had played it safe.

Blessed be the risk-takers."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 23, 2018 - 03:20pm PT
re: the death positive movement

Megan Rosenbloom on death positivity,
Mindscape podcast, with Sean Carroll
20 August 2018



We're going to die. Let's accept it. Let's not feel squeamish about it, let's talk about it. And let's try to make it as meaningful as possible.

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2018/08/20/episode-10-megan-rosenbloom-on-the-death-positive-movement/

"In the United States especially, there is a tendency to not face up to the reality of death, and to assume that our goal should be to struggle at all costs to squeeze every last minute out of life."

So I visited Paris many times in my 20s and 30s. One of my biggest regrets is that I never got around to visiting the catacombs.

Order of the Good Death
http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com/

...

re: the living room

Think about it. With the advent of the funeral home (funeral parlor) 19th century, the parlor in the home became the "living room" (because this room was no longer for the dead, because now it was for the living).
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Aug 23, 2018 - 06:06pm PT
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/opinion/i-stood-up-in-mass-and-confronted-my-priest-you-should-too.html
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 24, 2018 - 11:19am PT


MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 27, 2018 - 08:02pm PT
HFCS,

You should like this I would think. A review of two books on how higher education has missed fulfilling its objectives to support democracy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/books/review/splintering-william-egginton-coddling-greg-lukianoff-jonathan-haidt.html?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Aug 28, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
"Changeless, unborn phenomenon are not victim of this charge for obvious reasons."

This characterization speaks strongly of the religious convictions of Zen Buddhism.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 28, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
Given this week's news, this one here is certainly worth watching again...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=jIjMqG8-H8c

Classic.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 29, 2018 - 11:27am PT
Worthy of review...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCdJgqDhbS4

Exemplified here: one of the factors in the equation, imo, that led to a Trump victory.




(Alright, I'm done.)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 30, 2018 - 05:54pm PT
China Is Treating Islam Like a Mental Illness...
28 Aug 2018

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/08/china-pathologizing-uighur-muslims-mental-illness/568525/

The Chinese government has declared Islam a contagious “ideological illness,” and it's quarantined one million Muslim Uighurs in reeducation or internment camps.

Religion is NOT a mental illness, and state-enforced atheism is a gross human rights violation.
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Aug 30, 2018 - 06:22pm PT
Religion is NOT a mental illness

depends on the religion
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 30, 2018 - 08:37pm PT
I think it was Freud who said that neurosis is individual religiosity, whereas religion is a universal neurosis.

Freud was also the guy who said that the repressed content that gives rise to neurosis is incestuous sexual desires (oedipal complex). According to him, everyone is broken.

I’d ask you about yourself, but those levels of meaning are purportedly buried in the unconsciousness.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Aug 30, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
We watched Three Billboards . . . last week on HBO. A fine movie.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
Superstition is NOT a mental illness
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