Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 06:38pm PT
|
re: "sacred", "spiritual"
Curious, Norton, how do think and feel about the word "spiritual"?
|
|
Norton
climber
The Wastelands
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 06:47pm PT
|
We should point out to young children that life feeds upon life and that's just the way it is and no matter your life is without meaning anyway. You are here to reproduce and nothing more ---------
I am pretty sure Paul, both as an atheist and as continual supporter of science in addition to religion on this thread would disagree with such a binary view ^^
and suggest that secular, non religious, people live their lives with just fine personal meaning and no need to frighten children with stories of the lone wildebeest culled from the herd by lions, ala Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 06:54pm PT
|
I told my son when I die I'm gone and you will never see me again. He said "but I will remember the fun things we did"... and we went climbing on some rocks and played superheros. Much better than filling his head with some bullshit exclusive club you can only get into if you follow a 5000 year old rule book and/or dissparate interpretations of it.
That's nice. Was that before or after you told him there was no Santa Claus?
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 07:15pm PT
|
http://time.com/5501811/james-watson-loses-honors-race-comments/
Not to worry, AC tells us all there is no such thing as virtue, hence, no iniquity (or vice) either. For sure, it's a cold world unbridled science and its priests would have for us.
I told my son when I die I'm gone and you will never see me again. He said "but I will remember the fun things we did"... and we went climbing on some rocks and played superheros. Much better than filling his head with some bullshit exclusive club you can only get into if you follow a 5000 year old rule book and/or dissparate interpretations of it.
Oh, and don't forget to tell him that when he dies someday, well, those memories of you vanish too. It'll cheer him up. Like that side of the cemetery with no flowers.
Superheros?
disparate
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 08:35pm PT
|
cemetery
whether
You handle the science--but I do hope someone else will teach him to write.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 08:40pm PT
|
New, from Steven Pinker: Enlightenment Wars: Some Reflections on 'Enlightenment Now,' One Year Later - Quillette
"Far from embracing the beleaguered ideals of the Enlightenment, critics have blamed it for racism, imperialism, existential threats, and epidemics of loneliness, depression, and suicide. They have insisted that human progress can only be an illusion of cherry-picked data."
https://quillette.com/2019/01/14/enlightenment-wars-some-reflections-on-enlightenment-now-one-year-later/
"Words mean what people take them to mean, and “Enlightenment” is conventionally understood to refer to the ideal of using reason and science to advance human welfare..."
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 08:59pm PT
|
It's a bastard's move to question what goes on between a child and their parent during a personal conversation involving a parent's sense of reality and their child's sense of wonder.
Isn't this exactly what AC has been doing? I doubt anyone on this thread cares what he teaches his child. Indeed, AC seems to be the one condemning the passing along of religious teachings, e.g. parent to child. And in a very hysterical, profane, and insulting manner.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:02pm PT
|
If you bring something up as an argument shouldn't it be fair game?
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:09pm PT
|
Your bias is showing just a little bit, Jim. I understand sticking up for friends--and the like-minded. But you shouldn't lash out at folks who are just trying to hold up a mirror for AC to look at.
Nobody's changing anyone else's mind here. But if you look at these exchanges honestly, you'll see that AC is the only one who believes he can.
(Sorry, some late edits for clarity.)
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:16pm PT
|
Science is, no doubt, a bastion of empathy. We should point out to young children that life feeds upon life and that's just the way it is and no matter your life is without meaning anyway. You are here to reproduce and nothing more. You are but a cog in the relentless struggle for reproductive survival and nothing more so get busy. Again, man up.
and your life, like every other life is unique, so make the most out of it, revel in it, be good to all of it. Use your unique abilities for that good, in collaboration with all of life on this planet.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:19pm PT
|
Fair thought, Lituya but all things are not equal. Experiencing a good outcome in an adult life through a religious influence during your youth can be completely different from the experience of other people raised in a similar way.
Agree 100%. Now, if only AC demonstrated respect for this premise.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:22pm PT
|
He is miles beyond the neighbor kids who attribute everything to Jesus and ironically yell about killing everything...
Geeeeez, man--where do you live? I've never seen this anywhere.
Frankly, I think you're making this up.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:29pm PT
|
Ummm, because I haven't.
What I have said--or tried to say, at least--is that science, philosophy, and religion all have a say in the critique. And yes, I do think that allowing any single one of these to dominate the condition is dangerous. Demonstrably so. Including science.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:44pm PT
|
I just hope that in the process of teaching your son to think critically, you're not also teaching him that it's ok to marginalize--or hate.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:56pm PT
|
AC, I only play nice with people who play nice. Sorry, but that's not you.
Moving forward, well, I'll try it if you do.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 09:59pm PT
|
There is no such thing as equality. There is such a thing as meritocracy and it is based on being able to prove your point. Science is the best example of verification through redundant experiments that embrace physical and medical curiosity. Then there is engineering which is bound by mathematics and physics leading to Architecture.
The Humanities are all well and good but haven't worked very hard on curing the Measles or Polio through Philosophy.
There are always ethics that need to be addressed--by philosophy and/or religion. Historically, science has done a poor job left to its own calculus.
|
|
Lituya
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2019 - 10:28pm PT
|
I think individual practitioners are good people across the spectrum--science, philosophy, religion. But it's always about the machine and who, if anyone, is steering it.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2019 - 07:17am PT
|
Good morning.
AC: Fair enough. How about you show me a post where a specific portion of the "sacred" texts were referenced and the "astounding insights" into human nature were described in detail.
Well, if you’re referencing the Bible, I’m really not a reader so much. However, I can think of many other documents from Eastern traditions. You might not agree. I’d probably start with the Heart Sutra (that "emptiness" thing), and the Recognition Sutras from Kashmiri Saivism describe mind as well as anything I ever read or heard. The things I heard or read never became astounding or insightful until I experienced it for myself.
(What do you think about Shakespeare’s plays?)
HFCS: Hey, I should be getting top billing here!
:-D (Good one. I like the humor.)
August West: . . . it is rather more comforting to imagine you keep living after your body is ash than to admit you have one chance and then you are gone forever.
Well, the rubric might turn on the word, “you.” If you are this thing that has a personality, then it might well be gone forever when your body dies. One can argue that the “you” you are thinking of is simply energy flows. Physicists tell us that energy transforms but not destroyed. It is a common retort to spiritual students who ask material questions: “who’s asking?”
Jim: The Humanities are all well and good but haven't worked very hard on curing the Measles or Polio through Philosophy.
Of course. That’s low hanging fruit by mixing categories (apples / oranges). Are you aware of any area of physical sciences that have told us how to behave ethically? Or aesthetically? It seems to me that when you employ the words “well” and “good” you’ve left the physical reservation.
OK but every scientist I know are humble to the path they have taken and are just as human as everyone else.
Perhaps. Humility might include broad inclusiveness, Jim—and that would include the other camp as well. Academically, in the universities and colleges I taught at, if someone in the business school talked about ethical imperatives, they’d often get those rolling eyeballs from economists, operations research, and game theorists. (Except that is, in the UK or Canada.) Finding teachers and teaching students more complete views (truth, beauty, and the good) on organizations and business is a tough job even for well-rounded people.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2019 - 08:18am PT
|
Shouldn’t this thread be re-titled to something along the lines of:
The All-Purpose Arguing For Arguing’s Sake?
Y’all have run around that burning bush so many times you should be lying on the deck!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2019 - 08:25am PT
|
The All-Purpose Arguing For Arguing’s Sake?
Yeah, that's what rantloon (AC) does.
Rants all day long about sh!t he knows nothing about.
This what happens to people who go insane and masquerade themselves as sane .....
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!