Yosemite Fee Increase

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 1 - 43 of total 43 in this topic

CA.Timothy

climber

California

Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 20, 2014 - 01:52pm PT

http://www.nps.gov/yose/parknews/feeincreaseopen.htm

entrance, campgrounds, etc

Frankly I dont much care. I have an annual pass and will continue to do so. What needs addressing is the $10 senior pass and what a scam that is. National Parks are already a playground for the well to do. This doesn't change a thing.

discuss

SC seagoat

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?

Oct 20, 2014 - 02:31pm PT

I like my lifetime senior pass for the one time $10 fee.
Don't mess with seniors. I'm sure you're just trolling, but well to do, really??? I think they go on cruises
Perhaps charge,by length of the vehicle like they do at my local car wash

Susan

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Oct 20, 2014 - 02:39pm PT

All the more reason folks will be sneaking in early morning. $60 for a Yosemite annual or $80 for an Interagency annual, that is a no brainer. The Interagency pass is also good for the NF Adventure fee, although I never display it because it seems like it is never enforced, I would rather not leave an 80 dollar pass on the dash. Some rangers say you can photocopy the pass, probably should?

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Oct 20, 2014 - 02:41pm PT

A bear walked onto our tarp in between our sleeping bags at Upper Pines on Saturday night. We desperately need bear herders on staff at each campground.

Raise the fees and more shower facilities please.

CA.Timothy

climber

California

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 04:45pm PT

I did mean 'well to do' Susan. You think people from a low SES are spending money on gas, camping gear, and all the other necessities for National Park touring?? Not many...

And yes I think the senior pass needs to be more expensive. Seniors are the largest park demographic, drive the biggest vehicles, and require the most park services such as, larger campgrounds for their rigs, nice hotels, nice paved roads that take you right to the trail head, LEED certified buildings to house a plethora of merchandise and sub par educational programs, SAR personnel for when their tickers give out on the mist trail...

all kidding aside, rather than me explain why I think seniors should pay more, how about you explain why you think seniors should not have to pay as much as the rest of the owners (and visitors) of this public space

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Oct 20, 2014 - 04:55pm PT

I don't believe seniors account for the majority of park visitors. Middle age folks with families? Maybe. But that would be offset by the youngsters they bring in.

I'd like to see a solid link on that.

I'm ok with seniors getting a break anyway.

John M

climber

Oct 20, 2014 - 05:04pm PT

Sure there are seniors with a lot of money. There are also a lot of seniors with very limited means. The senior pass is a small thing.

The increase in the main fees pisses me off too. National park my ass.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Oct 20, 2014 - 05:13pm PT

Where else are you going to get what you get for a mere $80.00? Everyone here complains about how everyone ELSE should pay more. Fuk off, when seniors are considered. If one uses the Park Pass enough, it becomes nearly a vanishingly small amount of money per visit. If you really want to use class warfare as an argument, then consider a "Motor Home Fee," just to bring one into a Park.

CA.Timothy

climber

California

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 05:56pm PT

Survival

I googled it, and found the numbers for one park in one year. Everglades NP visitor survey from 2012. More could easily be found.

53% of visitation is in the 61+ age range. Lower the age range to 51+ (which I admit, 51-64 is not technically a senior, so please make whatever adjustments you want) and we have 74% of the visitation...These are not young people, or young families.

Not a big survey and it is only from one park on one year. But I believe it backs up my statement and shows a trend that most parks would align with.

http://www.nps.gov/ever/parkmgmt/upload/Visitor-Card-Survey-FY12.pdf

CA.Timothy

climber

California

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 06:10pm PT

brokedown: seniors have had their day in the sun as far as I am concerned. More like have had their years... Things are tough all over. Big user groups should share the load more equitably. Age sympathy my ass

I apply this same argument to wilderness areas and people who cant physically access them.

It wins me tons of friends.

EDIT: I will play devils advocate. My argument implies that user fees have anything in reality to do with what a park can and cant do it terms of funding. They dont. I suppose my fees argument loses.

LuckyNeck

Trad climber

the basement of Lou's Tavern

Oct 20, 2014 - 06:12pm PT

I continue to hate this entitlement generation.

Watch your mouth sonny, and show your elders some respect.

rather than me explain why I think seniors should pay more, how about you explain why you think seniors should not have to pay as much as the rest of the owners (and visitors) of this public space

Dumb.

You want the status quo changed? Burden of proof is on you, don't flip it on to others when you're the one with the gripe.

You'll want to reply to this, I won't read it.

I'm out. (Mic drop)

CA.Timothy

climber

California

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 06:16pm PT

Lucky: Seniors are the biggest user group. The user fees should be equitable. Not subsidized.

Your turn old tymer. Go. Explain to the entitlement generation why your generation is entitled to subsidized fees in our parks and social security money from my paycheck. Explain why your generation is entitled to sympathy from mine. You guys have f'd us in the a if you ask me....

Edit: Dang I did want to reply to it...And please see my post prior to yours

Edit 2: Didnt the greatest generation call you guys the entitled generation and not the baby boomers?

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Oct 20, 2014 - 06:51pm PT

Most seniors, myself included, believe we've definitely paid our Fair Share through income taxes over the years.

cleo

Social climber

wherever you go, there you are

Oct 20, 2014 - 06:56pm PT

I have no problem with the fee increases EXCEPT...

I think that bicycles/peds should be charged a *maximum* of 1/4 the cost of a car (4 people in a car should be the "norm"). Things that reduce congestion, noise, parking impacts, smog should be encouraged, like:

minivans with 7 people in them ($30/7 ~$4.25 per person)

bicycles and pedestrians

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Oct 20, 2014 - 06:57pm PT

I'd like to see some stats on age demographics in parks other than the Everglades which is in Florida, the country's biggest retirement state.

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Oregon

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:02pm PT

Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 20, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
http://www.nps.gov/yose/parknews/feeincreaseopen.htm

entrance, campgrounds, etc

Frankly I dont much care. I have an annual pass and will continue to do so. What needs addressing is the $10 senior pass and what a scam that is. National Parks are already a playground for the well to do. This doesn't change a thing.

discuss

Screw you. I paid that fee for 40 years to get my senior pass and never bitched about some old guy getting in cheaper.. It's your turn, slacker.

Get a job.

If you live long enough you"ll get yours.

krahmes

Social climber

Stumptown

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:13pm PT

I'd like to see some stats on age demographics in parks other than the Everglades which is in Florida, the country's biggest retirement state.

Last one I could find for YNP was 2009:
http://www.nps.gov/yose/naturescience/upload/Visitor-Use-Summer-2009-Study.pdf
14% of visitors were 61 or older.
Page 13

CA.Timothy

climber

California

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 07:18pm PT

Lorenzo and Brokedown. Your arguments are statements of entitlement. You paid for it already?? That is a lame argument in the face of a statement calling for equitable fees.

Enjoy my social security dollars and thank you for passing the buck on this busted ass retirement system we have.

cleo: I think bikes and walk-ins should be free in all parks. We need to stop encouraging driving.

CA.Timothy

climber

California

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 07:22pm PT

nice find krahmes. I already conceded defeat with my argument. It was flawed from the beginning in terms of finances and economics. My battle is now philosophical, remains unchanged, and appears to be very popular among this group. Fees should be equitable. No preferential treatment for seniors. Now that we have established my dislike for seniors, any other thoughts?

I did not notice a raise in back county permit fees which is good.

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Oregon

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:31pm PT

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
Lorenzo and Brokedown. Your arguments are statements of entitlement. You paid for it already?? That is a lame argument in the face of a statement calling for equitable fees.

cleo: I think bikes and walk-ins should be free in all parks. We need to stop encouraging driving.

Enjoy my social security dollars and thank you for passing the buck on this busted ass retirement system we have.

Equitable means everybody paying their fair share when their time is due. Let me know what your sorry ass paid compared to inflation when you are done in 40 years.

And my social security paid for the generation in front of me. If there isn't any left when you retire blame the folks you elected to fight stupid wars with the money.

Entitlement is deciding you don't have to pay up when you are supposed to under the system your elected officials set up. I earned my slot in the 47%.

When you pay up so will you. Not before.

And entitlement is deciding your fair share won't go up with inflation.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:34pm PT

Stay off the routes those geezers put up!

Go find yer own.

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Oregon

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:42pm PT

That, too. Go find a climbing gym.

Don't get so many tattoos.

Use that iphone 5 another year.

See if you can get an advance on your trust fund.

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Oct 20, 2014 - 11:14pm PT

Explain to the entitlement generation why your generation is entitled to subsidized fees in our parks and social security money from my paycheck.

my generation has been paying into ss for 40+ years. we're subsidizing you troll.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Oct 21, 2014 - 02:55am PT

I don't mind increases to keep up with inflation but

in 1997, it cost $5 to get in the park. Now it's going to cost $30. I live in the park all this time. Have campgrounds been improved since 1997? ..no, in fact there are fewer. Has much of anything dramatically improved to match this huge increase in fees? No, can't say that either.

and this is a lot more than keeping up with inflation. The real political game is keeping taxes low for the rich while shifting revenue towards user fees that don't seem like taxes but are borne by those less likely to afford them.

And don't forget, these increased fees come along with an NPS whose concession contract diverts FAR more money to the NPS than before Delaware North came aboard. (creating a conflict of interest if you ask me, where, the more money the concession brings in, the more money the Park Service gets, which is in the business of regulating the prices DNC charges, that it will receive a kickback on)

And ya, the NPS wants $24 for a campsite, basically on the law of supply and demand since there are no showers anywhere, sometimes no electricity or hot water, it's not really comparable except to other places where they can charge anything due to location.

Give Seniors a break. You'll all get there one day and your pension will not give you 500% cost of living increases to cover NPS fee increases that exceed inflation

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Oct 21, 2014 - 06:31am PT

No more fees without more showers, damnit!

John M

climber

Oct 24, 2014 - 02:39pm PT

bump..

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Oct 24, 2014 - 02:54pm PT

They will need that money to fence off ElCap meadow and build the boardwalks.

Bad Climber

climber

Oct 24, 2014 - 03:08pm PT

I'm sorry, but I better get some damn nice full-body massage from a platoon of hottie cheerleaders in thongs and wet t-shirts if I'm paying $30 freakin' dollars to get into Yos. That's crazy! What Karl said ++100. Nothing improves, nothing changes, just more money down a black hole of pensions and waste. I remember when Adventure Pass fees went into effect for the Angeles Crest, and guess what improved? Not a damn thing. A year after the fees were imposed, the campground near the now-closed Mt. Williamson STILL had no bear-proof dumpsters, which should have been freakin' job one. I don't have much respect for these bureaucracies any more.

Grrrr.....

My only consolation is that my wife will be in the official "senior" range before I will, so we'll get a break then. Still a few years off, though. I've no problem with seniors getting a break, never have. They've been paying taxes for WAY longer than the youngsters. Time to get a break.

BAd

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 24, 2014 - 03:52pm PT

Isn't this fee increase still in the public commentary phase? While the bureaucratic juggernaut may well just push it straight through, there's a far better chance of political impact via commentary in the process, vs. this Forum.

The Adventure Pass is NOT a done deal, either. There's still room to push back against it...if/when the USFS manages to make fee access permanent, there will be no hope of seeing it reverse.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2350994/Is-the-National-Forest-FEE-project-dead

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Oct 24, 2014 - 04:39pm PT

I say charge each person $10 per day and impale any seniors who try to sneak in (too many darn people in this world, and the rent is too damn high).

Climbers, however, and legit and get free passes to any park where they can rope up.

Should I run for congress?

Rick Krause

Trad climber

Madras, Or

Oct 24, 2014 - 06:52pm PT

This is a lot bigger problem, than Yosemite

"It appears the reason for such a drastic hike in the contract’s franchise fee is the NPS decision to use $25 million in Park funds and another $75 million borrowed from other national parks to “buy down” Xanterra’s LSI. This decision will in turn, by NPS’ own admission, result in cutting budgets of its staff, implementing hiring freezes and furloughing of NPS employees at a number of national parks. Additionally, the NPS recently
announced its intention to raise visitor entrance fees at many parks across the country."
Hotel concessionaire sues Park Service over Grand Canyon deal.

Read the full article

http://www.thecherrycreeknews.com/hotel-concessionaire-sues-park-service-grand-canyon-deal/

KabalaArch

Trad climber

Starlite, California

Oct 24, 2014 - 07:50pm PT

"The additional revenue from the fee increase will be used to enhance visitor services, including repair and maintenance of park facilities, restoration and rehabilitation of visitor service buildings, additional park programs and transportation services, and increase resource protection."

Bad Climber

climber

Oct 25, 2014 - 06:35am PT

Thanks for the link, Rick. I read the whole thing. If the information is accurate,sounds like the NPS is psychotically out of line. Who the hell is running that circus? While I think too much private enterprise in parks can be a problem, the Xanterra folks have been there since before Grand Canyon was even a park! Certainly any construction/expansion/alterations of services must be cleared through park officials, so I don't see problems coming from that direction unless the NPS wants it. There's no way a private company would come in having to pay over 14% to the NPS. That's a guaranteed bankruptcy rate right there. Who would take such a contract? I don't understand the NPS reasoning on this. They must have some plan. Is it to somehow drive out Xanterra and takeover the concession services itself? Again, if the facts are straight in the linked article, I'm siding with Xanterra on this one and hope they win, although I deplore the tax money that will got to fight it. That's the problem with so much the gov't does: Officials are not playing with their own money and feel too little obligation to those who will pay.

BAd

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Oct 25, 2014 - 10:50am PT

"There's no way a private company would come in having to pay over 14% to the NPS. That's a guaranteed bankruptcy rate right there. Who would take such a contract? "

When Yosemite's contract came up for bid last time, Delaware North offered the Park Service the moon and the stars to get the contract as they wanted this flagship park as their foot in the door and feather in their cap with a plan to expand to other national parks where their customers would be a captive group with no competitive choice, just like their other customers in airports, dog and horse racing tracks and private prisons.

This gave NPS the idea that they could use concessionaires as a profit center to finance ever increasing budgets (While the feds wean them from money so they don't have to raise taxes)

14% of GROSS receipts is a huge cut, unless of course, room and food rates are seriously inflated, which they will be in a monopoly situation where the NPS wolf is regulating the concession chicken coup rates. Yosemite prices (and fees) have far exceeded the rate of inflation

Peace

Karl

jaaan

Trad climber

Chamonix, France

Oct 25, 2014 - 11:35am PT

What needs addressing is the $10 senior pass and what a scam that is.

You're just sore that most of us geriatrics climb harder than you.

Rattlesnake Arch

Social climber

Home is where we park it

Oct 25, 2014 - 04:09pm PT

Seniors enjoy YNP, perhaps not as much as climbers. They mostly seem to take pictures of the falls, hang out in their RV's, drive up to Glacier Point, take ranger tours, etc. For the most part they don't stay at Camp 4, or line up for Serenity Sons, nor do they use the backcountry much. They aren't clogging the bivi ledges on the Nose or knocking rocks on other parties. Basically with few exceptions they use the resource differently and don't compete directly with climbers. Sure the valley is crowded, but most climbers are happy if they have good weather, can find a place to stay, and can tick some climbs. Seniors are happy if they see a bear, enjoy the sun, and make it home in time for their next doctors appointment.

A special fee for oversize vehicles is fine with me.

(By way of full disclosure, I am an ageing and decrepit rock climber who is patiently looking forward to his first Senior Pass next year. The discount will be nice, but small compensation for my lost youth).

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 25, 2014 - 04:59pm PT

you all have blather in control go say something nice about Todd skinner
That the fee is going to go up is something that you can do naught about !
Have a favorite place a thread that means a little more than this one? I will say thank you
inadvance please remember this is a child who missed out on her Dad and could hear anything that a Dad might say or if that is to much of a stretch be nice and post a hey he was in every magazine I read. post up tonight please Read the posts you'll understand.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Oct 25, 2014 - 06:32pm PT

Good idea..done

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Oct 26, 2014 - 01:20am PT

And my social security paid for the generation in front of me. If there isn't any left when you retire blame the folks you elected to fight stupid wars with the money.

Not true. If the SS fund was not lent at interest, it would be even more insolvent. The politicians we should excoriate are those that refuse to deal with the Fund's actuarial insolvency, their enablers such as AARP, and liars such as moveon.org that allege there's no problem.

As for fee increases, I'll gladly pay more for camping if they actually give us back the campsites we had as of, say 1960. Hell, by now, almost 20 years after the Great Flood, I'd almost settle for the sites available in 1970. I find it ridiculous that every day in summer has the "no campsites available" sign up.

I do, however, appreciate my Golden Age Passport, or as jstan calls it, the Golden Turkey.

John

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Oregon

Oct 26, 2014 - 01:32am PT

You mean to give a break to those who squandered the country, so that the next generations wouldn't have it as easy as they did? Already, they took over campgrounds with their filthy, polluting, noisy RVs and a normal tent camper can not enjoy these camps supported by their own taxes--they are nothing but RV parking lots. They book the sites up in advance and park the trailers for 2 weeks, making it a residence and a weekend tent camper is forced out.

You are welcome.

Eric Beck

Sport climber

Bishop, California

Oct 26, 2014 - 08:52am PT

The Golden Age (Senior) pass is the single benefit of getting old.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber

Oct 26, 2014 - 10:22am PT

I haven't read the thread, but if they are rolling out announcements for increases on a park to park basis, not doubt the all-inclusive pass is also on schedule to increase.

If it's $80 now, I bet it will be at least $100, and maybe even $125.