US Forest Service $1000 fine for photography.....

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snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 25, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/news/1000-dollar-fine-for-pictures-in-the-forest?src=soc_fcbkshttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.esquire.com%2Fblogs%2Fnews%2F1000-dollar-fine-for-pictures-in-the-forest%3Fsrc%3Dsoc_fcbks

For realz????
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 25, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
Like that's going to stand up in court...
Greedy republicans, squandering our money in frivolous lawsuits....
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 25, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
Greedy republicans, squandering our money in frivolous lawsuits....

Good one, Jay!

Of course, it's a Democrat in charge, and the trial lawyers are one of that party's biggest bankrollers, but I still like your comment.

John
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 25, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
The FS is desperate to figure out a way to pay for their $14 Million Arcadia Taj Mahal.
I guess that would entail 14,000 fines, right?
skitch

climber
East of Heaven
Sep 25, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
It's only for the Media, but I still don't think it is legal. . .
snarky

climber
Hoisington
Sep 25, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
The foundation is already starting to crack...
skitch

climber
East of Heaven
Sep 25, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
From: Oregonlive.com

Here are seven key things you should know about the policy.

1. These rules are already in place. The Forest Service says they've been in place for 48 months and are now being chaptered in law.

The agency adopted the rules shortly after it refused to allow an Idaho Public Television crew into a wilderness area in 2010 to film student conservation workers because the show sold DVDs of its episodes. Idaho's governor intervened and the Forest Service caved to pressure.

2. This isn't just about the media. The policy applies to documentary film crews, nonprofits and private citizens who might use a photo or video to sell something or earned a salary while in the wilderness area. They'd need a special permit first.

3. The policy narrowly defines the circumstances when media wouldn't need a special permit to shoot photos or videos. It allows for photos and videos during breaking news events, describing them as "an event or incident that arises suddenly, evolves quickly, and rapidly ceases to be newsworthy."

But many events, like large wildfires, can arise suddenly and last for weeks.

4. The Forest Service couldn't provide any actual examples of what problems it's trying to address. Liz Close, the agency's acting wilderness director, said the agency was implementing the Wilderness Act of 1964, which aims to protect wilderness areas from being exploited for commercial gain.

"It's not a problem, it's a responsibility," she said. "We have to follow the statutory requirements."

Another federal agency that also manages wilderness areas, the Bureau of Land Management, does not require any special permit for newsgathering.

5. The Forest Service is giving itself wide discretion to decide when it would and wouldn't grant a special permit. "If you were engaged on reporting that was in support of wilderness characteristics, that would be permitted," Close said.

Press advocates worry that would allow the agency to squelch coverage of stories it didn't like.

6. The rules apply across huge swaths of Oregon and the West. More than 63,000 acres on Mount Hood is federally designated wilderness, including the peak. Oregon has 48 wilderness areas, including parts of Mount Jefferson and Mount Washington.

7. A serious fight is brewing. Gregg Leslie, legal defense director at the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press in Alexandria, Va., said his organization would consider suing over the plan if the Forest Service continues to pursue it. The National Press Photographers Association also said it would also weigh litigation.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 25, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
So will they also be charging per footprint?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 25, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
So I shouldn't publish this pic I took last week?

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
Sep 25, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
Seems unreasonable and maybe unconstitutional. But I would generally support efforts to reduce commercial use of public lands like the forest service manages.

In Washington DC, most of the parks and monuments are on NPS land, guarded by NPS swat-trained teams. Ever notice that you never see news reports broadcasting from in front of a famous monument? For example, you could do a story on the Ferguson race riots in front of the Lincoln Memorial. Except that the nps rangers would bust you in a couple of minutes if you didn't get a permit.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Sep 25, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
or earned a salary while in the wilderness area. They'd need a special permit first.

There are many, for hire, trail rides throughout the Black Elk Wilderness around Harney Peak. I have to wonder how many of them have permits. Maybe the part I quoted above doesn't apply to them.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Sep 25, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
I think they are turning the average American against the wilderness act.
Kung Phu Panda

climber
Sep 25, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
Interesting conversation

On the one hand, I'm in favor of:

Seems unreasonable and maybe unconstitutional. But I would generally support efforts to reduce commercial use of public lands like the forest service manages.

In Washington DC, most of the parks and monuments are on NPS land, guarded by NPS swat-trained teams. Ever notice that you never see news reports broadcasting from in front of a famous monument? For example, you could do a story on the Ferguson race riots in front of the Lincoln Memorial. Except that the nps rangers would bust you in a couple of minutes if you didn't get a permit.

That said, I'm assuming they are doing this for sinister reasons like:

The agency adopted the rules shortly after it refused to allow an Idaho Public Television crew into a wilderness area in 2010 to film student conservation workers because the show sold DVDs of its episodes. Idaho's governor intervened and the Forest Service caved to pressure.

Which is basically trying to prevent anyone from making a dollar from Park Service lands. That said:

There are many, for hire, trail rides throughout the Black Elk Wilderness around Harney Peak. I have to wonder how many of them have permits. Maybe the part I quoted above doesn't apply to them.

I will guarantee you that they are paying a concession license, and if they aren't I guarantee that someone from the NPS would be VERY interested in learning more about these trail rides.

As someone who works in the ski industry on NPS land, I can assure you that they take a cut of everything that gets earned. As far as commercial recreation goes, the NPS is like the Tax Man. They ALWAYS get their cut.

BLM on the other hand... BLM = more freedom to do stuff, which also means more opportunity to commercially profit from the land. You can interpret that statement as you see fit.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 25, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
The Wilderness Act states:

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment.

And:

(6) Commercial services may be performed within the wilderness areas designated by this Act to the extent necessary for activities which are proper for realizing the recreational or other wilderness purposes of the areas.

I don't think they have a leg to stand on. Its not like we are talking about an activity that "uses up" or "depletes" a resource.
Kung Phu Panda

climber
Sep 26, 2014 - 09:03am PT
The Wilderness Act states:

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment.

And:

(6) Commercial services may be performed within the wilderness areas designated by this Act to the extent necessary for activities which are proper for realizing the recreational or other wilderness purposes of the areas.

I don't think they have a leg to stand on. Its not like we are talking about an activity that "uses up" or "depletes" a resource.

As someone with legal training, I would caution you on a simple plain text reading. Legislative rules are words of "art" that can have very different meanings in in legal context vs our normal everyday usage. The only way to understand how the courts will interpret a law is to look up the past case law and see how the court has interpreted the language. I remember writing a moot court brief thinking, the definition of employee is super clear and obvious and then realizing that defining who is and isn't an employee for the purposes of worker's comp is about as clear as a glass of mud. Your probably right in your interpretation, but the application of law can be incredibly nuanced
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 26, 2014 - 09:37am PT
FortMental gets it. What he didn't mention was that outsourcing everything
frees up FS employees for the important stuff like sitting in their offices
planning their retirement.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 26, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
There's sort of a grey area here. If you're involved in a commercial activity that doesn't impact others significantly(like say selling a single pic that turned out well), this seems like overkill.

But I'm all for charging large, organized efforts that impact other users. There certainly a history of doing this for guided trips for instance.

Where to draw the line on that continuum is the big question.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Sep 28, 2014 - 07:34pm PT
wow.

anyone out there with the FS want to comment ? unofficially, of course...
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Sep 28, 2014 - 07:59pm PT

"Backcountry fee
Walk-through fee
Mtn bike fee
communing with nature fee"


You think FortMental jests....




STOP THIS BILL

DEAR PUBLIC LANDS SUPPORTER

Action is urgently needed to stop a bill introduced in the House, and already rammed through Committee and ready for a floor vote.
HR 5204 would authorize the Forest Service and BLM to charge fees for all public lands, for any activity, by any person, any time.
Details follow. Please TAKE ACTION NOW!
Kitty Benzar



STOP THIS BILL
HOUSE BILL WOULD ALLOW FEES FOR ALL PUBLIC LAND ACCESS

Just before the House adjourned for their August recess, HR 5204 The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Modernization Act of 2014, was introduced by U.S. Representative Rob Bishop (R-UT) and rammed through the House Resources Committee, without a hearing, by its Chairman, U.S. Representative Doc Hastings (R-WA).

It's likely that Bishop and Hastings are planning to get HR 5204 attached as a rider to the FY2015 appropriations bill. Although HR 5204 has attracted no sponsor in the Senate so far, it's likely that if attached as an appropriations rider it will pass both chambers without scrutiny or public debate, and become the law of the land, because appropriations bills are considered "must pass" in order to avoid a government shutdown.

HR 5204, if enacted, could destroy the concept of public lands as places where everyone has access and is welcome. Every place, every activity, every person, could be required to pay a fee - an additional tax on top of the taxes that already support public lands - for access, regardless whether they are highly developed like National Parks and Forest Service or BLM campgrounds, or completely undeveloped like Wilderness Areas.

HR 5204 would allow the kind of fees that have not been controversial to continue, such as fees for developed campgrounds and National Park entrance fees. But in addition to those fees, it would allow general access fees for any federal recreational lands and waters. It would accomplish this by two types of fee: Day Use Fees and Permit Fees.

The only meaningful requirement for a Day Use Fee would be that where you park there is a toilet of some kind (could be a porta-potty or a stinky outhouse) within 1/2 mile.

The only meaningful requirement for a Permit Fee would be that where you park gives access to a "special area." Neither "special" nor "area" is defined. The land agencies would have complete discretion to claim that any place at all is a "special area."

So where there is a toilet it could be called a Day Use Fee. Where there is not a toilet, it could be called a Permit Fee. The result is the same: there would not be anyplace where a fee is not allowed. And since the agencies would get to keep all the fee money directly, there would be not be anywhere that they wouldn't have a strong incentive to charge a fee.

Public lands? Forget that. Not any more. Not if this passes.

There is other stuff in HR 5204 (like no more fee-free days, citizenship checks on annual pass holders, and overhead costs rising from 15% to 25%), but they only rearrange the deck chairs on the sinking ship of our public lands.
A detailed analysis of the major provisions is on our website at this link.
Congress is on vacation until the week after Labor Day. When they return, the 2015 appropriations bills will be among the top items of business. If Bishop and Hastings succeed in getting HR 5204 attached to one of them, it's almost guaranteed to pass.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Sep 28, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
I contacted our house representative and both of our senators requesting that they vote against this bill.

I have personally went into both of the local FS offices nearly a dozen times in the last three years to let them know what I thought of their current and future plans they are implementing. Having worked with many of them side by side on many fires we've had, they used to consider my opinions. The last year they've been down right obstinate on there position in regards to the future plans. Seems to me the lines of communication between us and them is waning.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Sep 28, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
the best way i've heard to describe this is, "if you're filming sylvester stallone climbing in a wilderness area as in cliffhanger then you're gonna need a permit". in most other cases you should be ok. a blogger posting pictures skiing in a wilderness area that runs ads on his blog is most likely ok.

And this first surfaced way more than 48 months ago (like 2006) in regards to 'Fourteeners', a movie by Chris Davenport (google is your friend).
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 29, 2014 - 07:47am PT
Is someone deleting my posts? I had replied to this last week but it's gone.

Anyway, instead of believing a vested-interest news source, take a look at the existing rule, and the proposed changes. They have nothing whatsoever to say about photographing or filming wilderness for commercial gain. A permit is only required for still or movie shoots requiring models/props/lighting/vehicles etc., or in areas where the public is not allowed, or one where the FS incurs costs. The only thing "new" in the proposed regulations is that longstanding permit requirements for still photography have been expanded to include movie filming, and that the conditions under which a permit may be issued have been clarified.

I'm willing to be that the parent company of those news outlets has been enjoying free access to public lands for their commercial filming, and is now upset that we'll no longer be subsidizing them.

TE
klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Sep 30, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
This article actually provides some clarity on the "issue", rather than misleading, hyperbolic, click-bait of the Esquire article and others.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Sep 30, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
thx for the link Tom
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Sep 30, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
Thanks for the link. There is some good information there. HOWEVER, I think that Casey did a pretty piss poor job of covering the issue in the initial article, and all the hyperbole does little to build my confidence in his ability to be unbiased. The six updates to his initial article provide some much better information, and actually vindicate the "shoddy reporting" of The Oregonian and others. As I see it, there are a ton of gray areas that are open for interpretation, and I have no faith in the FS to implement this in a reasonable manner.
couchmaster

climber
Dec 16, 2014 - 05:48am PT
New law update: they pulled it out of the bill, sort of, I think it's gonna be like one of those horror flicks where the zombie rears up out of the dirt at the last moment and tells all us climbers we need to pay for access. But for now you won't be made a criminal if you take a video on Federal land Wilderness and post it to Utube to commercialize it, even if you use it for to support a Supertopo book that is clearly commercial: Email from: http://www.westernslopenofee.org/


STILL DANCING WITH THE DEVIL WE KNOW




In This Issue
HOUSE FEE BILL STOPPED
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!


THE FEE-FREE PRESS

Fee Free Logo
DEAR PUBLIC LANDS SUPPORTER
Kitty Benzar ,

GOOD NEWS!

As perhaps you already know, late Saturday night the US Senate approved an Omnibus Appropriations Bill to fund the government through fiscal 2015. The House had already passed the bill, and President Obama is expected to sign it this week.

Here's the good news: A top-to-bottom revision of the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act that could have authorized fees to be charged on all federal lands, for all visitors, and for any activity, was not included in the funding bill!

Thanks! To everyone who called, wrote, and emailed your U.S. Representative and Senators. By letting Congress know that recreation fees are a controversial topic that is of intense interest to citizens, you helped send them "back to the drawing board."

Read more below about what to expect when the new Congress convenes in January.

HOUSE BILL THAT WOULD HAVE ALLOWED FEES FOR ALL PUBLIC LANDS ACCESS HAS BEEN STOPPED

IMMEDIATE RISK HAS BEEN AVERTED

Recreation Fee Policy Changes Must Start Over

Sometimes the best you can do in politics is to dance with the devil you know.

That's the takeaway from the US House's (for now) failed attempt to pass legislation that could have conferred nearly unlimited authority on federal land management agencies to require that visitors pay a fee to be anywhere, or do anything, on our National Forests, BLM, and other federal public lands.

Instead, the funding bill that passed just as this session of Congress came to an end extends the current law - the devil we know - through September 30, 2016.

That law is The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act, or FLREA. It is a deeply flawed statute. But it does contain some important provisions, which have been upheld in several federal court cases, that protect citizens from over-reach by fee-hungry agency bureaucrats.

For example, FLREA says:
"The Secretary shall not charge any standard amenity recreation fee or expanded amenity recreation fee for Federal recreational lands and waters administered by the Bureau of Land Management, the Forest Service, or the Bureau of Reclamation under this Act for any of the following:
(A) Solely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking along roads or trailsides.
(B) For general access unless specifically authorized under this section.
(C) For dispersed areas with low or no investment unless specifically authorized under this section.
(D) For persons who are driving through, walking through, boating through, horseback riding through, or hiking through Federal recreational lands and waters without using the facilities and services.
(E) For camping at undeveloped sites that do not provide a minimum number of facilities and services as described in subsection (g)(2)(A).
(F) For use of overlooks or scenic pullouts."

The House bill would have gutted those prohibitions. It called for amending FLREA:
"by striking subparagraphs (A) through (F) and inserting the following new subparagraph:
(A) For any site, area, or activity, except as specifically authorized under this section."

Since "this section" authorized almost unlimited fees, those important protections against fees for undeveloped areas and general access could have been wiped out.

In our last several Alerts, we warned of the possibility that the House bill (known as HR 5204) could get attached to a piece of unrelated "must-pass" legislation and sail through Congress without being debated or considered on its own merits. Indeed, quite a few unrelated measures, known as "riders," were attached to both the National Defense Authorization Act and the FY2015 Omnibus Appropriations Act in the final week of the congressional session.

But not HR 5204. Whether that is because of citizen action or due to some other force is unknown to anyone outside the back rooms in Washington where such deals are done.

Nevertheless, those of you (and you were many) who took the time and made the effort to contact your elected officials should pat yourselves on the back and take credit. When Congress doesn't hear from you, they assume you don't care. They certainly can't make that assumption on this issue!

What Happens Next?

Although the new expiration date of FLREA is in 2016, the date to watch is September 30, 2015. That's because FLREA is where the authority resides for the federal agencies to sell the interagency annual "America the Beautiful" Pass. The Park Service brings in the lion's share of revenue from these annual passes and relies heavily on that revenue. If new legislation (or another extension of FLREA) is not in place by a full year before FLREA expires, then purchasers of annual passes can't be guaranteed a full year of benefits, such as entrance into every National Park, with predictable impacts on sales and reduced revenue to the National Parks. No one in Congress wants to be perceived as hurting the National Parks. So even though most of the controversy about fees swirls around National Forests and BLM lands, the future of fee policy there is tightly coupled to the Parks.

The 114th Congress convenes in January, with some new faces and some important changes in leadership.

Rob Bishop (R-UT), who was the sole sponsor of HR 5204, moves up from Chairman of the House Subcommittee on Public Lands to become Chairman of the overall Natural Resources Committee. That puts him in an even more powerful position to push legislation that he supports and/or sponsors. He has not yet named a replacement for himself for the Public Lands Subcommittee, but the leading candidates are said to be Tom McClintock (R-CA) and Cynthia Lummis (R-WY).

More sweeping changes are coming in the Senate with the transfer of the majority to Republicans. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) will now chair the Energy and Natural Resources Committee, which oversees federal public lands. She also will be the head of the Appropriations subcommittee for public lands, so she will have great power over both policy and the purse strings. Mark Udall (D-CO), who was Chairman of the National Parks Subcommittee, lost his bid for re-election, and is likely to be succeeded by Rob Portman (R-OH). The Public Lands Subcommittee is likely to be led by either John Barasso (R-WY) or Jim Risch (R-ID).

These House and Senate leaders represent states where many people live close to or surrounded by federal public lands. They should certainly "get it" that their constituents have a fierce sense of ownership and commitment to our National Forests, BLM, and other federal lands. Those constituents want federal lands adequately funded so that there is no incentive for the agencies to pick our pockets just to go for a walk in the woods. They also want Congress to exercise strong oversight of the federal land agencies and make sure they are using our tax money wisely and following the law.

And the law, THANKS TO YOU, still says that we can't be required to pay a fee solely for parking, roadside picnicking, general access, dispersed undeveloped areas, camping outside of developed campgrounds, passing through without use of facilities and services, or enjoying the sunset from a scenic overlook.

There is a lot of devil in the details, but at least it's the devil we know!
HAVE A WONDERFUL HOLIDAY SEASON AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!





After the first of the year, as soon as there is any action in the new Congress regarding federal recreation fees, we will notify you about it and tell you what you can do. Our voice is strong and growing, but we always need more support. If someone you know should be on our notification list, please send them to our website to sign up. You can also Forward this message and direct them to the signup link at the upper left.
As always, subscribing to our list is absolutely FREE!

The Western Slope No-Fee Coalition is a broad-based organization consisting of diverse interests including hiking, biking, boating, equestrian and motorized enthusiasts, community groups, local and state elected officials, conservatives and liberals, Republicans and Democrats, and just plain citizens.

Our goals are:

To eliminate recreation fees for general access to public lands managed by the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management
To eliminate backcountry fees and interpretive program fees in National Parks
To require more accountability within the land management agencies
To encourage Congress to adequately fund our public lands


Thank you for your support!

Sincerely,

Kitty Benzar
Western Slope No Fee Coalition




Privacy Policy.


Western Slope No Fee Coalition | P.O. Box 135 | Durango | CO | 81302



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