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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 7, 2014 - 10:25am PT
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power, endurance, joints or desire? I feel that the old adage "climbing is 80% mental" applies here.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Joints? Did you say joints? Fire it up, Jimbo.
I would say joints go first, then you don't care about the others.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Maybe it's more like 100% mental Jim. Hope to run into you in Squamish soon.
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rincon
Trad climber
Coarsegold
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If you're a climber who only ever sport climbs or just a casual day cragger, then losing desire may not be a factor. Big wallers and alpinists often lose the desire for all the hard work and suffering, not to mention the biggest factor for many...commitment of the climbing.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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My joints (L. knee and R. Sacro-iliac) were injured over a year ago in a ranch accident, and after much time and $$$ spent on getting things fixed this past July, there is no shortage of desire. Since I've been working out in August, my power is still behind the normal curve, and my endurance is beginning to return. Add in a dose of improving technique, and I should become a decent partner on reasonable climbs again...soon.
Re: the mental aspect; the problem plaguing me is my total lack of confidence anymore. I just need to get out and climb a lot more, and that problem will solve itself.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Power goes first.
Then joints.
Then endurance.
I dunno about desire... still have plenty of that.
DMT
Ditto-ing what DMT said, at least for me.
Susan
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Am I the only one to bring up how thin-skinned one gets? And I don't mean it
in the figurative sense. I have to tape up from fingertip to elbow if I don't
want to look like an audition wannabe for Texas Chainsaw Massacre XIV. And,
yes, I have heard about that thing called 'technique', but at this point I am
resigned to just getting by on sheer obnoxiousness.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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In my case, and if I'm not too lazy (the 80% mental), I think this is it:
1. Some joint
2. Endurance
3. Power
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Locker, old buddy, you won't be partnerless too much longer.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Am I the only one to bring up how thin-skinned one gets? And I don't mean it in the figurative sense.
Yeah,
It seems like I'm permanently bleeding from somewhere on my shins. Hands are still holding out though.
First thing to go though was the joints. Specifically osteoarthritis in the big toes.
That negatively impacted the desire to do multiple consecutive days of climbing or multiple climbs in a day.
That of course accelerated already diminishing power.
Endurance?
Still have that left.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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My joints went first.
Ain't nuthin' wrong with the rest of those things.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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First of all, we all disintegrate in different ways, some of which are entirely unpredictable. You are at the mercy of your environment and your genetic heritage. Suck it up, pal!
I guess Rodger and I are the senior citizens here, being over 75 (I’ll be 78 in a few months).
One aspect that I don’t believe has been mentioned is balance. At the age of 70, after doing nothing but free-soloing and very light bouldering for the previous 20 years, I discovered my innate sense of balance had deteriorated – although visual balance had compensated. I still have a bit of that. But high up on a steep and convoluted wall sometimes one’s visual balance is inadequate, due to convolutions of the rock. I began to feel insecure . . . so I quit. After climbing since 1953 and having an existence apart from the sport I found it easy to just retire from the rock.
For those who think power and strength fade significantly, think again. Fred Archambault of New Hampshire is on video doing 20 pullups at age 89. If you’re interested you can find videos of me on my horizontal ladder at age 76, doing what I continue to do. True, not the strength and power at age 30, but you can continue to be physically strong if you persist in an exercise regimen. But don’t slack off too much after 70 or you’ll lose much of it. On the other hand, be realistic!
At 74 I made the mistake of doing a dynamic muscle-up, which I had discontinued many years previously. Result: torn rotator cuff. When diagnosed, it was discovered that I had no cartilage in either shoulder, so I had lost a lot of flexibility. But this was not due to climbing, rather to my still ring work 50 years prior, a sure way to destroy your shoulders. I was still doing a little ground-level traversing, but this put an end to that, which was OK.
The loss or continuance of desire may depend upon how much of your life you have invested in climbing. It may depend also on whether you have an addictive personality. Or who knows what else!
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go-B
climber
Cling to what is good!
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Strength to weight ratio for pullups!
Over use on joints, (without lighters)!
...Loss of Speed is first!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Another factor not mentioned or considered is RECOVERY TIME. How soon after a big day on the rocks can you go "do it again?" My Dolomite plan is a day of climbing , followed by a day off--or even two days off--just to let my body recover from the induced aches and pains to the muscles and joints.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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One aspect that I don’t believe has been mentioned is balance. Excellent point! My trainer added balance exercises to my workout last year. I kinda scoffed! Holy Hannibel, I couldn't believe the difference I felt the positive results especially skiing and hiking over rough terrain, talus and scree. I started ice skating lessons again last year and it's been great fun.
And agree with Rodger about recovery time. We've routinely been adding several extra days for road trips and back packing for "lay days". It's also made an incredible difference.
The last six months I've also added 4 to 5 nights of restorative yoga. It's all floor postures holding them up to 5 minutes each...major stretch through hips and core. Amazing the increased flexibility it's given me.
Aging has it's issues, but good preventative maintenance has helped me a lot
Susan
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
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How could I have forgotten to put recovery time on my list? It's probably my biggest issue.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Hey Jim,
I had a good day today after not climbing for 1 month. I've been very busy on a building project and have been climbing up and down ladders constantly, Apparently,it hasn't hurt my climbing, since I went out today and hiked 10 miles, and then went to Cathedral ledge and did 6 pitches of 5.9-10.
I would say my joints etc suck, but my desire is still un-diminished.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
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Completely "forgot" about memory.
Good job Steve!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Maybe that's the ticket! I would say that 90% of ended climbing careers are due to lack of desire.
If you train much,I think endurance is the last thing to go
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Maybe "forgetting" is a good thing. Today I led my third face pitch (with bolts, no other gear) ever. I am 57, and really haven't "led" much at all. So we are doing the "Ott" version of a Weeping Wall route. We start at Serpentine for the first 3 bolts, but then continue left to the Surprise belay. Next pitch is mine. We are looking straight up from the belay and he says there is your first bolt. "I remember this from when I used to do this route in the 70's", I can't see sh#t (of course I can't see sh#t normally). About 25 feet up from the belay bolts, my partner is yelling "the first bolt is just below your left hand!" . I could see nothing (he is 58 and both of us have bad eyesight). I moved my hand around land he yells stop. "Its right there!". The "bolt" was a circular piece of moss. As it ended up, I led the second pitch of Clam Chowder (5.9?) at Suicide, rather than Surprise lol!!! But in my mind it was 5.8 and no worries....Still fun. This is not hard stuff I know, but I still feel like a beginner. It's funny how much your mental game is critical in how you do. Bolts are so much easier for me. When leading with pro, it's can I get stuff in or not, should I keep moving or put pro in, am I going to flail needlessly if I stop to try to put in pro or should I just charge to what looks like a better spot.
So, ....what goes first is the physical for me. Depends on my "biorhythms" for the mental.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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So it was A surprise, after all. Just not The surprise you we're looking for!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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joints, knees, shoulders, elbows, speed, timeing and ballance.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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So it was A surprise, after all. Just not The surprise you we're looking for!
lol!!! Either way, it ended up being the surpirse I needed Jaybro. We had a great time, rain and all! Never been on that wall before, so I didn't really know what to expect.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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i don't know Jim, but it seems when you lose your power, if you ever had it, and the endurance washes out, if that was a factor, then you desire a joint?
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BirdDog44
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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40 years ago I'd say to myself "if I just get to that crack, then I've got it". Now I like faces, cause finger jambs hurt. So what's that joints? Hand jambs aren't what they used to be either. Power moves, I let my kid lead those. Endurance...still pretty good. Desire, oh yea still there!
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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^^^^^ For me, it's using my feet effectively. In cracks, on faces,....I NEED to be on the GOOD FOOT. Then I feel confident.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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I always thought women & children went first.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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now that's funny Guido...
i don't know Jim, but it seems when you lose your power, if you ever had it, and the endurance washes out, if that was a factor, then you desire a joint?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Guido, you forgot that losing his Endurance was not a problem for Shackleton.
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Ropeboy
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I guess we all age differently. For me, age 70, the cardio endurance and desire went first. But now when I follow a younger climber I find that I still have the technique and moves and a decent amount of strength. My joints are fine, possibly a result from not climbing much for twenty some years. After long layoffs my biggest hurdle has been getting my lead confidence back. I don't feel young, bold and immortal. A guy could get hurt doing this stuff.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
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I ran out of gas before my luck did.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Power-endurance. My final answer.
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ruppell
climber
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Looks like typing skills are the last thing to go.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Certainly the trolling skills are one of the last...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Balance is definitely affected too, but I've been (incorrectly!) attributing the poor balance issue to bum knees. Trekking poles on rough terrain seem to help a lot, so I don't do a face-plant in the scree.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2014 - 07:40am PT
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It's still fun.....but only in the sun.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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'soon as I recover from this surgery. I'll be good to go.'
...quote from three surgeries ago.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Maybe I can fix this...
that's what the surgeons keep saying.
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pc
climber
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What goes first?
for me?
Mind
strength and stamina are fine.
I've lost all patience, won't tolerate jackasses, have to truly bite my tongue sometimes when coaching my sons soccer team, don't mind idle chit chat but not with jackasses, generally too quick on the trigger with my ever ready "frack off".
Sadly, my bridge game is decent but I don't like the misplaced/hyper competitiveness of some of the duplicate jackasses...
;) $.02 or less,
pc
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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I watched Bird Lew WALK UP a steep 12c at bear crag yesterday. . . But I don't think she's as old as any of you.
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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For sure it's power that goes first. How many top bolderers are in their 40s, or 50s? Old guys can't slam dunk anymore but they can run the court. Not too many old sprinters but lots of older people running marathons and doing long Nordic ski races.
I'm working on a steep route right now that involves power -- something I've never had an abundance of. However, we get smarter and craftier in our old age. I'm able to make the lunge by doing a hard drop-knee where I probably would have just hucked for it when I was younger.
I do more warm-ups, and harder warm-ups as I'm older, or perhaps smarter. And as mentioned, recovery does take longer. What's most frustrating is that injuries take so much longer to heal.
Desire never wanes. In fact, as the clock ticks, desire just gets stronger.
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WBraun
climber
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Meh .....
Who gives a sh!t.
The intelligent class does what's necessary, adapts and never taxes their brain over mundane worldly sh!t they can never stop ........
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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first to go: my knee joints. Due to knee injuries as an adolescent and three arthroscopic surgeries. I'm putting off the knee replacement(s) as long as I can.
Rrecovery time after a big day is slower.
strength/power?
Yes but at my low 5.10 climbing level they're not as important as skills which continue to improve (see Positives, below)
Endurance: takes me a longer to get up the approach and I need more rests while climbing.
Positives?
Enjoyment unchanged, possibly even enhanced. More thoughtful and in the present. More relaxed.
I'm much better at pacing myself due to increased self awareness.
Balance?
I have to be more careful to keep up my diet balanced and stay hydrated. LOTS of water!
Effects of altitude? I'm more easily tired, less direct AMS effects.
And what Werner said.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Ha! I'm pretty much at half of everything. I used to run two miles faster than I now run a mile. I used to do as many one-arm pullups as I now do two-arm pullups. I now need both hands to hold onto holds I used to hang from with one hand. I also used to think twice as fast and remember twice as much. Balance is fine with my eyes open, and just about completely gone with eyes closed. Joints are remarkably ok, even after surgery for ACL rupture and meniscus tear 2.5 years ago. Injury recovery just spoke for itself, more than two years to recover what younger folks manage in a year or less.
One not all that heartening a consolation is that I am considerably past half my total lifetime, so I could reasonably claim to be ahead of the game. Also, the best I ever did in climbing difficulty was around 12a, and I'm still managing well above 5.6, so grades are a second realm where I'm at least beating linear decline.
Honestly, I'm not complaining. Every day I get out is a gift, something I didn't appreciate when I was younger. My struggles and achievements are now at a much smaller scale, but the pleasures (and frustrations) are pretty much the same as they always were.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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But beyond that it's the body (not just the joints). Once the body starts to hurt more and more desire diminishes
I've been taking daily doses of ibuprofen for at least ten years. It sure makes a difference. No ill effects. Miracle drug!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
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Rich, 12a in the Gunks translates quite a bit higher most other places. Love your analogy.
John, careful with vitamin I.....it isn't kidney friendly.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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rgold said ... Honestly, I'm not complaining. Every day I get out is a gift, something I didn't appreciate when I was younger. My struggles and achievements are now at a much smaller scale, but the pleasures (and frustrations) are pretty much the same as they always were.
Word, this sums it up for me.
I have been very frustrated cause I hurt my back last April doing nothing, just started hurting so bad I couldn't stand for three days. When I could walk my left leg would stop holding me up- and for no reason- I would just fall over.
The DOCs don't seem to have any good answers.
Getting better some, now. But this is the first time in my life that anything other than an exposed broken bone has held me back from going climbing.
So I guess I still have desire.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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John--
Watch how much Ibuprofen you take...donini said it correctly.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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hey donini, I'm closing in on 40, I've been on the couch for ... a while.
this weekend I did back-to-back runs of 10 miles, and good god am I sore. I'm chasing Vitamin I with Hamm's.
In answer to your query, I'm gonna say: joints.
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T.J.
climber
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Hmmm...
I would say mind for me. But joints are the next for me. Shoulders sensitive from thumbs down crack climbing, I think Peter Croft once said to jam thumbs up cause you get more 'distance' that way. I think its also easier on the shoulders. I try to always jam thumbs up to save shoulder.
T.J.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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By the time I turned 50, joints had me almost completely shut down. Then I made it worse with a disasterous decision about medical treatrment. Luckily, I had the resources and support to seek out the best solutions that modern medicine has to offer. At this point power, endurance, desire and joints are going along about as good as ever.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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For me it isn't the joints but the connections where tendons attach (fingers, elbows, shoulders). I still have a lot of power and pretty good endurance and desire is strong but it is hard to climb when the pain level gets above a certain point. I am just coming back from 2 years off and getting back into the 11s sport and trad so I can't really complain.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 15, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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Dana's in like,'83
Some years? later Rich Gzz
.................Hemorrhoids!
both men blamed the climbing, in general, Trying hard and falling,and hanging
Instead I think was to blame.
for me it was all the gush went out of my ankles and knees.
Eventually added to the exploded calcaneus ... any tips on how to scan x-rays?
With the first ever flipped (surgically) sub-Taylor joint;climbing is fine walking in and out can sure can be a pain and the next day I almost always come out of bed lame.(still I have morning wood)/;+)
as fast as I could I embraced all the newest stuff,and poles help and make hiking in, sane,
Technology and modern gear is great
Sir Donini thanks for so many great threads the b&b I scared the kids with last night when they would not go to bed so I showed them & said Lets Go Camping </;=D(stupid symbols)
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 15, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
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Curious. For those who advise against vitamin I, how much per day do you consider too much? Funny, my physicians - very smart fellows - seem unconcerned, even dismissive when they find I have no adverse reactions.
I usually take three tablets (total 600 mg) around noon for brunch, then maybe another before bedtime. Makes a huge difference when I go out and dangle from the horizontal ladder or hike up rip rap boulder slopes and local buttes.
Maybe it's just that I'm 77 and why make a fuss!
Edit: Oh yeah, I also take several spoons of sugar in my morning coffee, along with Half & Half creamer. My God, why am I still breathing?!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 15, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
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Is Valley Uprising sponsored by Viagra?
I told a group of younger climbers this weekend "My testosterone level really dropped after 40, I'm good only for twice a day now." ;)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
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John, whatever you're doing, it seems to suit you just fine.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 15, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
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I wondered when someone was going to mention libido.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 05:59am PT
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It's so cool and important for me to have folks like Jim and John posting on these threads. I'm fifty two and quite healthy. For the first time in decades I've gotten a little serious about strength training. For me that means pullups and hangs, some free weights, abdominal exercises and occasional yoga. My power for sure is up, and I've reclaimed some gunnage I haven't had since my twenties. Still can't seem to manage twenty pullups, however. Personal best so far is eighteen, although the last couple weren't pretty.
One thing I've done, which, fortunately my colleagues don't seem to mind, is use a removable pullup bar in my office doorway. Mostly there aren't many or any folks in the hallway when I step up for a set, but it's kind of funny to see the prof. cranking away! Between sets of papers or emails, I'll go to the bar, do a set, do a set of pushups, a set of situps and leg lifts, then back to the work. Walking to/from the bus and during the ride, I'll do some hand squeezes. I do this now a couple of times a week to add to my other stuff, walking/hiking/a little running with the dog, and cycling.
So, like Spider and others, I'm pretty much a low/mid 10 guy, which is fine! My confidence and endurance are up. It's so easy to get out of shape. My plan, Buddha willing, is to not get out of shape. Consistency is all, as Jogill said.
Keep at it, one and all.
BAd
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HandCrack
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal.
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:32am PT
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At 62, I feel very lucky to be able to still get out often and enjoy lots of moderate routes. A foot problem held me back for a few years but after taking care of that I've been able to be more active, lose some weight, and climb better than I have for quite some time. Just being able to see slow steady improvement is very satisfying.
Living in Joshua Tree, I have a large group of friendly, positive, motivated partners to climb with on a regular basis. (You're welcome to join us any time, Locker) Getting out consistently 2-4 days a week has gone a long way toward helping me feel more comfortable on the rock.
Everybody is different; generalizations are always dangerous. All I can do is keep on as long as it's fun for me. After that there's always birdwatching!
Brandt Allen
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 16, 2014 - 05:56pm PT
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John-
In response to your question about Ibuprofen: the really dangerous doses are those available in prescription levels around 800 mg per tablet and frequently prescribed for 3-4 times daily. Ibuprofen irreversibly damages the kidneys if that sort of dosage is continued more than a few months...say after an accident for serious pain control. I take some "Vitamin I" myself, but limit usage to 2x200 mg a dose, and usually only after a serious workload. I will also take the stuff before going climbing, again the 2x200 mg over the counter doses. I try to avoid becoming dependent on it by everyday use and too frequently.
That said, at our respective ages, it probably won't really matter "in the long run."
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
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Thanks, Jim & Rodger.
;>)
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thebravecowboy
climber
hold on tight boys
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
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the joints man, the joints
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
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the joints man, the joints
Come to Colorado . . . if you're not here already
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rockanice
climber
new york
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Sep 17, 2014 - 06:44am PT
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for supertopo, the speling gose furst ! all downhillfrum their
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