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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 18, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
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http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/08/18/california-weighing-bird-deaths-from-concentrated-solar-plants-as-it-considers/
Emerging solar plants scorch birds in mid-air
Published August 18, 2014
·Associated Press
This October 2013 photo provided by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service shows a burned Yellow-rumped Warbler that was found at the Ivanpah solar plant in the California Mojave Desert.(AP Photo/U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service)
IVANPAH DRY LAKE, Calif. – Workers at a state-of-the-art solar plant in the Mojave Desert have a name for birds that fly through the plant's concentrated sun rays — "streamers," for the smoke plume that comes from birds that ignite in midair.
Federal wildlife investigators who visited the BrightSource Energy plant last year and watched as birds burned and fell, reporting an average of one "streamer" every two minutes, are urging California officials to halt the operator's application to build a still-bigger version.
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The investigators want the halt until the full extent of the deaths can be assessed. Estimates per year now range from a low of about a thousand by BrightSource to 28,000 by an expert for the Center for Biological Diversity environmental group.
The deaths are "alarming. It's hard to say whether that's the location or the technology," said Garry George, renewable-energy director for the California chapter of the Audubon Society. "There needs to be some caution."
The bird kills mark the latest instance in which the quest for clean energy sometimes has inadvertent environmental harm. Solar farms have been criticized for their impacts on desert tortoises, and wind farms have killed birds, including numerous raptors.
"We take this issue very seriously," said Jeff Holland, a spokesman for NRG Solar of Carlsbad, California, the second of the three companies behind the plant. The third, Google, deferred comment to its partners.
The $2.2 billion plant, which launched in February, is at Ivanpah Dry Lake near the California-Nevada border. The operator says it's the world's biggest plant to employ so-called power towers.
More than 300,000 mirrors, each the size of a garage door, reflect solar rays onto three boiler towers each looming up to 40 stories high. The water inside is heated to produce steam, which turns turbines that generate enough electricity for 140,000 homes.
Sun rays sent up by the field of mirrors are bright enough to dazzle pilots flying in and out of Las Vegas and Los Angeles.
Federal wildlife officials said Ivanpah might act as a "mega-trap" for wildlife, with the bright light of the plant attracting insects, which in turn attract insect-eating birds that fly to their death in the intensely focused light rays.
Federal and state biologists call the number of deaths significant, based on sightings of birds getting singed and falling, and on retrieval of carcasses with feathers charred too severely for flight.
Ivanpah officials dispute the source of the so-called streamers, saying at least some of the puffs of smoke mark insects and bits of airborne trash being ignited by the solar rays.
Wildlife officials who witnessed the phenomena say many of the clouds of smoke were too big to come from anything but a bird, and they add that they saw "birds entering the solar flux and igniting, consequently become a streamer."
U.S. Fish and Wildlife officials say they want a death toll for a full year of operation.
Given the apparent scale of bird deaths at Ivanpah, authorities should thoroughly track bird kills there for a year, including during annual migratory seasons, before granting any more permits for that kind of solar technology, said George, of the Audubon Society.
The toll on birds has been surprising, said Robert Weisenmiller, chairman of the California Energy Commission. "We didn't see a lot of impact" on birds at the first, smaller power towers in the U.S. and Europe, Weisenmiller said.
The commission is now considering the application from Oakland-based BrightSource to build a mirror field and a 75-story power tower that would reach above the sand dunes and creek washes between Joshua Tree National Park and the California-Arizona border.
The proposed plant is on a flight path for birds between the Colorado River and California's largest lake, the Salton Sea — an area, experts say, is richer in avian life than the Ivanpah plant, with protected golden eagles and peregrine falcons and more than 100 other species of birds recorded there.
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service officials warned California this month that the power-tower style of solar technology holds "the highest lethality potential" of the many solar projects burgeoning in the deserts of California.
The commission's staff estimates the proposed new tower would be almost four times as dangerous to birds as the Ivanpah plant. The agency is expected to decide this autumn on the proposal.
While biologists say there is no known feasible way to curb the number of birds killed, the companies behind the projects say they are hoping to find one — studying whether lights, sounds or some other technology would scare them away, said Joseph Desmond, senior vice president at BrightSource Energy.
BrightSource also is offering $1.8 million in compensation for anticipated bird deaths at Palen, Desmond said.
The company is proposing the money for programs such as those to spay and neuter domestic cats, which a government study found kill over 1.4 billion birds a year. Opponents say that would do nothing to help the desert birds at the proposed site.
Power-tower proponents are fighting to keep the deaths from forcing a pause in the building of new plants when they see the technology on the verge of becoming more affordable and accessible, said Thomas Conroy, a renewable-energy expert.
When it comes to powering the country's grids, "diversity of technology ... is critical," Conroy said. "Nobody should be arguing let's be all coal, all solar," all wind, or all nuclear. "And every one of those technologies has a long list of pros and cons."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 18, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
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HaHaHa! See? There's always a silver lining to a toasted fowl.
And I guess that puts paid to my rejoinder that there ain't no free lunches.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 18, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
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How many birds to fossil fuels kill? lots more than solar plants, difference is we do not see them
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mirv
climber
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Aug 18, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
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Yeah, flew to Vegas from LAX a couple weeks ago and these dual towers in the middle of the desert were so bright they looked like mini suns. Couldn't look at them directly, and has to be a hazard to air navigation. Solar energy may be clean chemically or emission-wise, but it degrades the physical environment so badly that I think it's worse than burning natural gas to generate electricity. Acres and acres of solar panels destroy habitat and disrupt wildlife. I'm not much of a fan of windpower either.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Aug 18, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
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Yeah?
and how many salmon were killed by dams.
and how much of our ecosystem has been killed and is still being killed by coal-fire power plants?
and how much of earth's future is fuked up by Nuclear plants.
If you are not a paid shill for the above industries, may I suggest that you get off the grid.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
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Jim: A good point.
Sure! Move the solar plants to the big sh/cities. No problem with that.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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Sounds good Jim until poached pigeons begin falling onto the streets of downtown LA from all of the solar panels.
Believe me - nothing messes up the finish on a Mercedes quite like like half baked pigeon innards - the beehive dwellers will be up in arms in a second demanding that "THEY" do something.
"THEY" know this which is why "THEY" put the panels out there in the first place.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
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^^^Yer just miffed cause you can't stuff em once they've been fricasseed!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
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Same people behind the toxic, evil Prius.
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dindolino32
climber
san francisco
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Aug 18, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
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How many really die? Compare this to poisoned water from fracking etc. This problem is more solvable than cleaning up after an oil spill, or nuke problems.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 18, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
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It became necessary to destroy the environment in order to save it.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 19, 2014 - 12:45am PT
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Ron your point is a bit off the mark. More eagles are killed by cars than by windmills, and the drivers are never fined, while in November 2013 Duke Energy was fined $1 million for killing 14 eagles and 149 other birds.
Having said that, it is a problem, and the fine to Duke Energy was an exception rather than the rule.
Unlike Fox news, I'm a big fan of renewable energy. Still I think there should be an incentive for them to do better and that likely will have to be in the form of fines.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 19, 2014 - 06:45am PT
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Exactly why is it we can't have solar panels on every rooftop in SoCal? Why is it when need these monstrosities in the desert?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 19, 2014 - 06:51am PT
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The bright light of knowledge attracts some extremely stupid people.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 19, 2014 - 07:27am PT
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How many birds to fossil fuels kill? lots more than solar plants, difference is we do not see them
The Feds have also been after fossil fuel companies, and others, for many years. It's good to know that they are not giving these new outfits a free pass just because they're "green."
For example, in most of the country, there are far fewer large birds fried on power poles than in the past. This is because the Feds forced them to retrofit untold thousands of poles, making it so birds can't contact two wires at once.
Thank gawd for the watchdogs.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 19, 2014 - 08:07am PT
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More eagles are killed by cars than by windmills
I would like to see some data on that. I've not seen too many eagles
flying 3 feet off the ground except when they're getting lunch.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 19, 2014 - 08:10am PT
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Reilly, I thought the same thing.
I've seen an eagle fried by a pole, but never one hit by a car. And let's just say I've been around a lot more cars than power poles in my life.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Aug 19, 2014 - 08:42am PT
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Let's see: 300,000 mirrors, each the size of a garage door. Seems to me that most homes could function pretty well on an equivalent sized solar array. So for that many solar panels--instead of the mirrors and all mounted on or near the homes--shading parking areas, roof tops, existing infrastructure--we could power about 150,000 homes, ore 10,000 MORE than this existing monstronsity. How many stinking baking hot parking areas, for example, does Vegas have? A million acres? Every parking area, industrial building etc., in the American sun belt should have solar panels, which are getting cheaper all the time. There is simply no need to despoil virgin desert. These solar farms are really stupid technology when placed so far out. Lots of energy is lost on the transmission wires traveling so far to where the power is used. Why the hell isn't there a big push to add this simple tech to our already developed areas? I read about some place where they placed a long line of solar panels over an aquaduct--which is feakin' brilliant. Easy access with roads on both sides and the panels shade the water to reduce evaporation! There's so much we could do, but no. We do the stupid mega-technology thing while private companies soak up ungodly amounts of tax $$. Grrrrr....
BAd
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Aug 19, 2014 - 08:43am PT
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Totally Green Power.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:24am PT
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"I've seen an eagle fried by a pole, but never one hit by a car. And let's just say I've been around a lot more cars than power poles in my life."
Owls are wiser than eagles, right? This one hit my windshield square in the center.
I ducked down behind the dash when it hit, thinking it would break the glass. This is what I found when I got home.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:32am PT
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Maybe they aren't as "wise" as advertised.
My parrot went ape sh#t when he saw me carrying the owl carcass to the trash can.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:38am PT
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I find it interesting that Fox News professes a sudden concern for wildlife. Oh wait, it doesn't. It just wants to be destroy alternative energy for its conservative cronies. I suppose next they are going to propose tearing down glass skyscrapers since they account for ten of thousands of bird deaths every year? No, that's free enterprise, which God personally handed to the Republicans as His prophets on earth. So why are polluting forms of generating energy like oil and coal free enterprise and green forms of energy production are invalid?
Anyhow, re:
Every parking area, industrial building etc., in the American sun belt should have solar panels, which are getting cheaper all the time. There is simply no need to despoil virgin desert. I agree with badclimber. People criticize the transportation costs of solar power (though seem oblivious to the costs of transporting and processing oil), and yet it's beating down on top of us everyday. I think the same thing every time I see a new subdivision in the sunny Inland Empire. Why doesn't someone require that these new sunbaked homes have at least some form of solar energy system installed when built. Even a solar water heater would be a good start. The costs of production would go down because of the additional demand. The homes would be more economical to maintain, which is important since many people move there because it's less expensive; and they'd have additional market value because of the upgrade.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:40am PT
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Chaz, I'm sure you won't mind a little thread drift. From a book called
Why Elephants Cry, I think, was a story of a woman with two parrots.
She often kept them in different rooms, for her sanity. One day she had
one in the kitchen with her while she was making dinner. She was going to
bake a chicken and as she put the bird in the oven the parrot squawked out
the other parrot's name and then started laughing hysterically.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:41am PT
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Why is solar power so expensive?
We don't need to mine for sunshine, or import sunshine on tankers from the Middle East.
Greed is the only thing I can see to account for the high price of solar energy.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 19, 2014 - 10:15am PT
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are you folks saying that eagles don't get hit by cars completely unaware of this new technology called google?
eagles hit by cars
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 19, 2014 - 10:21am PT
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are you folks saying that eagles don't get hit by cars completely unaware of this new technology called google?
Who said Eagles DON'T get hit by cars?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 19, 2014 - 10:31am PT
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There's really no alternative to cars.
Solar power is totally optional. And unnecessarily expensive.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 19, 2014 - 10:37am PT
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You, Reilly, and Ron all chimed in to say you didn't believe me cause you haven't seen it.
Google it.
Go to the Bald Eagle's wikipedia.
Go the Golden Eagles wikipedia page
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 19, 2014 - 10:40am PT
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There's really no alternative to cars.
Solar power is totally optional. And unnecessarily expensive. All forms of energy are 'totally optional'. All forms have their downsides. Solar and wind have less. And what we're discussing here is only one form of solar out of many.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 19, 2014 - 10:46am PT
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Yes, perception is a fickle thing.
Clearly my point is that the information regarding road kill is easily available to those who aren't intent on believing that solar and wind power are evil.
Do you believe we landed on the moon? You never actually saw that.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 19, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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like i said and linked. google it. repeated studies have shown that the most common cause of death for eagles is accidental trauma (between 23-25%) with vehicles and stationary items (mostly powerlines, but separate from electrocutions).
and the 39 million bird figure is on the extreme upper end of things, and still would pale in comparison to all birds killed by cars.
as i mentioned in my first post on the subject. wind energy operators should be fined for kills.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 19, 2014 - 11:43am PT
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It's odd that its not odd that it's not that odd Ron. It's good to have something to agree on!
Gumby, we're all good. I read the wiki page on eagles. However, we had already agreed that electro/wind/solar companies should not get a free pass.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Aug 20, 2014 - 10:20am PT
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Simply enormous. The Ivanpah site near Las Vegas covers 3,500 acres of the Mojave Desert. Each heliostat field is more than a mile across.
Few power plants can be called “small,” but nearly everything about Ivanpah is mammoth. The three-unit site sprawls over 3,500 acres—nearly 5 miles from end to end—near Nipton, Calif., about 40 miles southwest of Las Vegas (Figure 1). The facility is large enough to be visible from orbit, and the glow of the three power towers is visible from many miles away when the units are online.
edit: above is from power magazine, not my writing. "Regenerable" power without environmental impact is a pipe dream; nothing comes without a cost.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Apr 15, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
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Kit fox's thrive under the mirrors at Ivanpah.
But help in the form of drones could be on the way. To scare off birds and
reduce 'streamers' at the Ivanpah solar thermal generating stations.
Every 2 minutes, on average, a bird gets ignited in the flux.
71 bird species plus a Peregrine Falcon among the casualties.
Vastly under-reported because of predators cleaning up
on the bonanza of free food.
Avian Mortality At Solar Energy Facilities Southern California: A Preliminary Analysis.
http://alternativeenergy.procon.org/sourcefiles/avian-mortality-solar-energy-ivanpah-apr-2014.pdf
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Apr 15, 2015 - 10:57pm PT
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Cats and glass buildings kill more birds than clean energy. Anyways, the energy is for you, so you can have golf courses and casino's in the middle of nowhere. Why dont you write your politician and tell them that you would like to pay the full price of power, that which includes its total environmental destruction.
Then you would actually spend some time conserving power and you wouldnt need acres of turbines and solar panels.
The Euros do it...whats your problem?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 15, 2015 - 11:08pm PT
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Chaz: It became necessary to destroy the environment in order to save it.
Exactly. But then when did you start quoting Duke Energy...?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
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I would like to see a framework that gives incentives to existing energy transport vendors to transform themselves toward a fully distributed model:
1) Building owners have the legal right to own their own equipment and maintenance for solar generation. They can collect money from an energy transport provider for sending energy back into the grid.
2) Building owners can outsource the solar panel installation and ongoing maintenance to an energy provider AT NO COST. Regulated solar providers are mandated to install the service on buildings that request it. The building owners provide a property lien to the energy provider to ensure these fixed assets are clearly owned by the energy provider.
3) Energy providers maintain the distribution infrastructure, as well as storage for time-shifting (battery, water pumping between lakes at different altitudes, or whatever), and bill back the customers based on usage as they do today.
The idea is to get rid of these behemoth centralized plants that have environmental impacts, and also get rid of the transport waste inherent in shuffling around electrons for long distances. The system enables big companies to still bill us for a recurring revenue stream, which keeps corporate America happy. It is more resilient to targeted infrastructure attacks, and reduces the risk of catastrophic civilization melt-down from power-grid problems.
Problems with the approach:
1) Big companies would still perceive this as riskier... what if a future liberal government decides to grant an amnesty/ownership of the panels and infrastructure on each building to the building owner? Need to have strong protections against this. Otherwise they'll stick with a centralized model that can't be given directly to the consumer (but does face a similar risk of nationalization).
2) More expensive to operate because need more bodies in a more distributed fashion. Cheaper to have a few people watching a lot of equipment in a small area.
3) Who has to pay for roof repairs when the solar repair tech breaks a tile or makes a hole? Can't tell if it was negligence or if the roof was in terrible disrepair and in need of replacing.
4) What happens when roof needs to be replaced? What if you pay for a roof contractor to be there a certain day(s), and the solar company is backed up on their requests and doesn't remove their stuff to facilitate the roof replacement? What if the roofing guys remove the solar panels to get their job done, but they break something?
5) What about customers who mess with wires to bypass the counters/meters to get a cheaper bill? Easier to do this when the generation is on your roof vs. coming from the grid where in theory they can detect outside your house (but in practice they just read meters on customer prem to bill people today).
I think this solution is worth figuring out, as it offers the best long-term sustainability and safety. Thoughts?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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Gumby, I'd pay more attention to your stats if they were normalized in terms of birds killed per unit of energy generated. As stated, it is pretty misleading.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
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I don't see many eagles flying in healyje's pic.
Long live Muehlenberg County.
Here's an article about Ivanpah from IEEE, a generally unbiased source:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/green-tech/solar/ivanpah-solar-plant-turns-birds-into-smoke-streamers
Yes, solar concentrators can fry birds. The report lists some bird species but not eagles.
Precisely because the solar power is in a concentrated location, a solution can be found. Will no birds die? Of course not.
No one's mentioned the birds killed by the electric transmission line towers.
http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/collisions/powerlines.html
Whatever way the watts get from the generator to your air conditioner there is risk to birds.
As for the non-concentrated panels on a house or factory or governmental building, they can't hurt a flea, let alone an eagle.
There is good news about the eagle. They have actually come back from the edge of extinction.
Statistically: more eagles in the air means more eagles caught up in civilization's contraptions.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 16, 2015 - 04:13pm PT
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If centralized solar concentration towers continue to be used- one approach to keep animals out of the airspace is to continually project sound that repels them.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Apr 16, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
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If they painted the Wind mill blades red or some color rather than white--would the birds be able to see them? Birds see color very well and I was wondering if the white blades are too dim for them to see?
The poster that titled this a "fail" must be a real piece of work.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 16, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
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Mmm. Scorched bird.
Seriously, as was said above, there is no energy generation system that doesn't have some negative effect on the environment. I'm sure mining the materials to build the mirrors had a few issues too.
All we can do is weigh the alternatives of one vs another. Solar in pretty much any form comes out ahead in my book.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Apr 16, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
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cats- 1.4-3.7 billion birds/year
Zero energy generated.
So in terms of birds killed per kw-hr, that's about
3.7 billion / 0 = this thread is a troll
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ManMountain
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 16, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
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"Ivanpah Fried Birds"? I read the report and it's feather singeing that incapacitates the birds, making them susceptible to predators (me?).
I was bummed; you can't pull over at Ivanpah and grab a bunch of ready to eat KFC style meat. It seemed so perfect.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Apr 16, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
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I'm with stevep
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 16, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
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These huge solar plants are just stupid, on many different levels. Small scale installations make so much more sense, except to the utilities.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Apr 16, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
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Punks that lite animals on fire for fun get thrown in jail. Corps that
do it as a bi-product of power gen get a pass.
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thebravecowboy
climber
the Midcontinent Rift
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Apr 16, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
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Yes, Dave, corporations do get a pass. They are people too, you know.
Personally, I am pretty keen on lots more like Ivanpah. Or, you know, good old self-determination and investment in micro-solar.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 16, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
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hey there say, all... oh my... i never knew about this... actually, did not even realize how HUGE these solar plants were...
:(
thanks for teaching me... and sharing... wow, i am too 'out of touch' with these modern times, :(
sad to hear about the large birds of prey, too... :(
never realized so many were hit by cars, either, thanks for
sharing the 'road sign' fritz...
i could of course, understand, that, well...
oh my, but:
the simple thing that i DO KNOW, though, is something that i 'think;?
perhaps happygrrl??? or someone??, and that is this:
these owners of property and buildings that continually destroy the bird-nests, and do it just 'for spite' ... and then, secondary, saying that they are 'messy' :(
and those that nests that are around their buildings, that are just
warehouses, and not even storefronts, apts, or garages, etc, ... :(
or, the folks that cut down all the trees in the yards, that are full of bird's nest, and feeding grounds... :(
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