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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 30, 2006 - 06:53pm PT
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The Pro-Trax is a piece of crap, and contains several fundamental design flaws.
Please click here to [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=243751&f=0&b=0#msg244913"]read a professional engineer's evaluation of the ProTrax.[/url] Please scroll down to Tom's post of August 28 at 11:59pm.
There is indeed a Better Way, which you will find beneath Tom's post.
Thanks,
Pete
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Aug 30, 2006 - 07:12pm PT
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Seems this was my opinion a couple of years ago when the cam failed to engage the rope when the haul was at a very modest off-plumb from the pigs below. You defended the ProTraxion at that time and called it "pilot error" IIRC. Interesting when the shoe is on the other foot...
FWIW, you're not wrong in your a*#essment of the ProTraxion, IMO. I went out (well, went directly to Barrabes in Spain to be accurate) and bought the Kong Block Roll right after that trip was over. It is a very confidence inspiring device. Over-kill for any grade IV stuff, but well worth the weight and size for multi-day.
Ed
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Aug 30, 2006 - 07:12pm PT
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Is the sky falling again Pete? sheesh.....
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crazyfingers
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Aug 30, 2006 - 07:35pm PT
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I own a ProTraxion and it differs in a couple ways from the description of problems in the other thread.
My model has a collar around the button, which engages the side plate when closed. The side plate is then braced at the top clip-in point and at the pulley's axle (button location).
Also, the trigger mechanism used to release/engage the toothed cam on my model is not sensitive. It takes a deliberate and somewhat forceful movement to release it.
I see no way for a 11mm rope to slip past the pulley, since there's only 1/16th inch of clearance on each side.
The Pro seems to work well for moderate loads. I can't speak about hauling 300lbs. Seems unfair to trash something that works well for many instances. Besides, I got mine free.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 30, 2006 - 07:54pm PT
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Have you been in touch with Petzl about your concerns with the Pro-Traxion? They are a reputable company that makes a lot of good products, and would no doubt want to know of any problems with their equipment's design and manufacture.
Presumably you could contact Petzl U.S.A., and communicate in English with them.
Anders
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
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You would think Petzl would listen, as they make some really good gear, but in some ways they just don't get it. I have bought three Petzl Duo lamps through the years, and there is a perennial design flaw with the switch. I buy them because they are waterproof for caving. My caving buddy who works for Siemens building relays says Petzl could fix the problem by spending an extra buck or so, but they won't. I have sent back two in the past, and I just sent back two more to the Co-op. They have finally discontinued it, and I need to investigate what their newest waterproof headlamp is.
I bought my Pro-Trax through the Mountain Equipment Co-Op in Canada. Their guarantee is such that, "if you are not fully satisfied with anything you buy from us, return it for full credit to spend in the store."
Done. Buying a new bivi sack from MEC, and another Block Roll from Kong.
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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Aug 30, 2006 - 11:33pm PT
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Haven't had any problems with mine. How much weight were you guys haulin' when the problems began, Pete? I mean, 600+ lbs is A LOT of frickin' gear man!
I rarely haul more than 300 lbs (45% of the rated load) and usually use a 2:1, so my Protraxion is basically relegated to simply holding the load in between pulls. Seems fine for this application.
The CMI Uplift is probably the ticket. I know some SAR guys that love 'em. At roughly $200, they come set-up for 4:1 hauling with a 54 kn (!!) double-sheave (3") pulley. The smaller version is a little over $100 and has a 32 kn double-sheave pulley (about the same size as the Kong I believe, but with a smaller sheave, 1.25")
T.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Aug 30, 2006 - 11:46pm PT
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Pete:
I've got to agree with crazyfingers, I love my protraxion. I've used it on a few walls, and for me it has ruled. Sobering to hear of your problems with it, apparently it has flaws that only show up with very heavy loads or loading circumstances. I plan on climbing Lurking Fear in late Sept., tempted to get a Kong but we are trying to keep weight down...hopefully we won't overly stress the device. Thanks for the info!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Aug 30, 2006 - 11:54pm PT
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C'mon HummerDaddy... up the ante a bit... Lurking Fear??? You got *that* strong for *that*???
( ya pussy!)
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 31, 2006 - 09:13am PT
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Hauling on the triple D a few weeks ago - using an 8mm static and a protraxion - I did notice that if the haul was off plumb that the device wanted to suck the haul-line out of the pully proper and into the small space between the pully and the outside shealth. We were not hauling heavily loads and this occured anytime the haul was off-plumb...the more so, the more it wanted to suck into the gap.
Not sure if petzl recommends a larger haul line, but thought Id throw it out there. It never got fully stuck in the gap, but had to be watched and realigned prevented longer space hauls.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2006 - 09:21am PT
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The Protrax is a nefarious device - it will work fine for a few walls, and then suddenly it buggers you up. I never liked it as much as the Kong because the pulley is smaller and the bearings aren't as good, so the Kong has always been the substantially easier device to haul with.
The place you really notice how much better a Kong works is when you're solo hauling a heavy load that you can just barely 1:1 haul. If you had the opportunity to try the two devices side by side like I have for so many walls, you would be amazed at how much easier it is to haul with a Kong. On many solo walls, I have been able to switch to 1:1 hauling a full two days ealier with a Kong than I would have been able to switch with a different device - it's just that much better.
Why would anyone buy one if they can get a Kong for only a few bucks more?
If you have only read what's written on this post, and not read Tom's excellent analysis of the design flaws of the Pro-Trax, please scroll up and click on the link.
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PD
Big Wall climber
Reno, NV
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I am a lame ass climber who doesn't know sh*@t, but I've had a pro traxion completely break on me while a load was being lowered out from below, with the second riding out the haul bags. It wasn't a big lower out at all, yet the thing torqued oddly due to the lack of a swivel on it, and it spit out the rope and nearly severed it. Luckily I backed up the device with a knot just after the pully, before the lower out, and so my partner and all the haul bags did not fall to their deaths. The rope had come out from between the pulley and the cam, bending the sheet metal and pulling out the axle that is supposed to hold the pulley in place.
I don't think I'll use one again. I called it pilot error but after reading this post I'm convinced the thing sucks arse! But then again, I am a lame ass climber who doesn't know sh*@t.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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PD, you want to explain how you rigged it up so that the device could "torque oddly", as you put it?
Kong stuff is really nice BTW, I have no idea why they don't have better marketing in the US.
Years ago I scored a pile of their keylock biners in all shapes n sizes, and I have totally enjoyed em.
They also make a HUGE fat solid aluminum rap ring, that I wish I could get more of.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
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"I am a lame ass climber who doesn't know sh*@t, but I've had a pro traxion completely break on me..."
Well, you know a piece of junk when you use it!
"Kong stuff is really nice BTW, I have no idea why they don't have better marketing in the US."
It doesn't matter - get yer Kong stuff from me. I'm in Canada, but can ship to the States no probs. My McTopo email is legit, so lemme know if I can help you with any Kong stuff.
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Mimi
climber
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Hey Pete, are you heading for the ditch soon? What fine route are you doing this time?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2006 - 12:00am PT
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Tomorrow. The Shield [or possibly Mushroom] depending on the crowds. #31 El Cap route with any luck! Woo-hoo!
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Mimi
climber
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How bout some real adventure and leave the hammer. You wall stud.
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Mimi
climber
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Hey Pete, cat got your favorite tool?
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Wade Icey
Social climber
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"..I've had a pro traxion completely break on me while a load was being lowered out from below, with the second riding out the haul bags...Luckily I backed up the device with a knot just after the pully, before the lower out, and so my partner and all the haul bags did not fall to their deaths. "
your partner was riding the haul bags?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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So Pete, can you get those Kong fat aluminum rap rings, and how much are they in US dollars?
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Mimi
climber
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Dirt, what the heck is the point of using soft aluminum instead of steel in a system that should be designed to resist wear? Do you really carry a bunch of these things with you that the weight savings matter? Just curious.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I like my Pro-Trax. Done plenty of heavy hauling with it and aslong as it has some degree of freedom (sling) to piviot on the powerpoint, it will engage and not get tourqued. Put a biner in teh bottom of course.
A friend said he broke his hauling above the hollow flake pitch, he had it clipped straight into one bolt. Crazy part is he got sucked head first into the chimney (hauler not backed up) by his haulbag. He got pretty beat up. He says he thought he had a biner in the holes, but i can't quite believe him. They were able to bail safely, and our conversation was held over beer in Curry.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2006 - 05:16am PT
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I'll let you know on the rings.
Funny how now that I brought it up, rather a lot of people have heard of the Pro-Trax failing, eh?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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anything can fail if you don't clip it in properly...
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PD
Big Wall climber
Reno, NV
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Yeah, he likes to ride out with the haul bags. The incident happened at the top of the Pancake Flake on the Nose -- barely even a lower out. I think the pro traxion was on a few links of chain, and the slightest movement in the direction of pull was enough to cause the failure. Seemingly, there was nothing interfering with the device, and I assumed that there was plenty of room for it to move around during the lower out. In theory it works well, but there must be a swivel on it, and if it so much as touches rock it's possible that could lead to a similar failure. That was in 2002 or so -- they may have changed the design, but I'll be using the Kong device from now on, or just a standard pulley and inverted jumar -- the old fashioned way. We were using it with less than half of its rated capacity -- it should be able to handle that. Petzl replaced the device and our rope that was almost chopped, but didn't say much else.
If I can figure out a way to upload images directly to this post I can show you all what the bent and broken P.O.S looked like after the incident.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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try to post the picture!
you need to host your image on another website then link to it here. you could put it on Rockclimbing.com or I am sure someone here Like Pete could host it for you.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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PD,
Check out photobucket as a place to store you photos. Once you have them uploaded all you have to do is to copy the code below your photo and paste it here.
The proxtrax seems to work for me. I think the key is the wieght of the bag. Two or three days fine, any more than that you need a larger pulley anyhow...
Cheers,
John
http://www.photobucket.com
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Mimi
climber
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Remember to leave your posted pics in photobucket. If a posted pic gets deleted from photobucket, the link is broken to ST and the pic is gone from the post unless you reload it.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Bumping this b/c of the mention of fatty rap rings. I've never seen the kong ones, but Omega Pacific started selling a fatty rap ring last year about a week after I bought a grip of the scary rolled SMC ones. 20kN, and for $3 they're actually cheaper than using 2 of the old style ones.
('course who knows, they may just be rebadged kongs)
Also, how much of this critique of the pro-trax would apply to the mini-trax as used for TR solo?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:40am PT
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Better to go with the Fixe 50kn stainless rings...
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:48am PT
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We just used the mini-trax to haul a wall with multiple 30 meter lower-outs and space-hauls.
No problems. Use long slings to give the system a bunch of play.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Oct 23, 2006 - 11:15pm PT
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Sorry, Russ, I'm way behind on checking posts. I saw yours from 8/30/06, personally I find ANY El Cap route to be rad enough for me! Yes, I used a Pro-Traxion, it worked awesome, as usual. I ended up soloing the route, as my partner did not want to continue. Worked out great, as I have wanted to solo another El Cap route after my 1987 solo of the Aquarian. Incredible experience, I loved it. Does freak me out to hear of the problems others have had with the Pro-Traxion. One would think that Petzl would change the design, after hearing all of this. The thing worked brilliantly for me, sounds like I should say fortunately. Lurking Fear ruled, I can't say enough positive about it!
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Dirk
climber
Leadville, CO
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Oct 24, 2006 - 12:46am PT
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My Protrax always hangs flush because I tied a loop of webbing into the clip-in hole, and I always clip the biner to the webbing loop rather than directly to the unit... so it never sits funny on a biner. Used it with moderate loads (~100 lb. bag + ~180 lb. climber jugging) on many walls to no ill effect. IMO it's the bomb.
That said, I think that monkey Rich dropped some bags real far off the Trip a couple of years ago because he didn't clip that biner at the bottom.... oops.
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couchmaster
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
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The fatality in Zion last year that was being blamed on Petzl Ascender failure (severing the rope, not necessarily a failure) started with a Protraxion failure. I've been seeing Petes posts about the weakness of the Protrax for years before this 2006 post I think.
"On October 17, 2008, James Welton fell to his death while climbing the Touchstone route in Zion National Park. The National Park Service subsequently conducted an investigation into the cause of the accident in cooperation with the Washington County Sherriff’s office. Their findings have been released. The three-person climbing party had climbed three pitches (approximately 180 feet) without significant event. When the member leading the fourth pitch had reached the pitch’s top anchor, he tied the end of a rope into it. The climbing party’s gear, weighing 104 pounds, was attached to the bottom end of this rope, which was to be used as a haul line. The climbing partner then ran the haul line, which was also Welton’s ascending line, through a Petzl Pro-traxion device, a pulley which incorporates a cam allowing for rope capture as rope is hauled in. The climbing partner pulled 15 feet of slack through the Pro-traxion prior to Welton starting his ascent. The group planned to haul the gear to the top of the fourth pitch after Welton, the second climber, had completed his ascent. The third party member planned to ascend a second rope, the leader’s lead climbing rope. Welton’s fall occurred when the Pro-traxion failed soon after he started to ascend the haul line. The Pro-traxion operates with a cam and pulley mounted to a fixed plate. A sliding plate allows a rope to be inserted into the device. When the sliding plate is properly closed, a button locks the device together. NPS investigators were able to reproduce the failure of the Pro-traxion during informal tests when the device was closed improperly. They noted that the device could appear to be properly closed (but not truly closed) if the device was weighted prior to the side plate sliding into place. When improperly closed, the device can deform when weighted, causing rope to move rapidly past the cam in the unintended direction. When the Pro-traxion failed, the 15 feet of slack ran rapidly through the device, causing Welton to fall this distance while still attached to the rope by his mechanical ascenders. The force generated by the fall transferred to Welton’s ascenders, which severed the rope, resulting in Welton’s tragic fatal fall. [Submitted by Ray O’Neil, Plateau District Ranger]"
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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May 29, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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My Titanium USBA Kozlov designs(USSR)hauling device
has never given me any grief, although if you use a
larger diameter haul line there is the possiblity for
some slippage!!! Anything around 11mm or smaller
is stellar!! The thing is rock solid, however not
sure where you would buy one these days??!!
Safe Hauling,
Thor
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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May 30, 2009 - 04:17am PT
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There was another thread on this accident. Sad no doubt but user error also involved. If I remember the incident correctly they didn't put biner through lower hole in protrax and didn't tie off slack, and had 2nd jugging on rope already weighted with haul bag.
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