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| Messages 1 - 87 of total 87 in this topic |
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 31, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
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damn right
even though apparently she wasn't pregnant.
But hey, she was a scumbag, ergo she deserved to die.
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Jul 31, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
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Once you hit 80 you should be allowed to kill at least one person, plus what freedoms are you taking from them if you put em in jail???
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 31, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
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Hey Dirty Old Harry, next time just run her over with the Buick like a normal 80 year old.
Sheesh.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Jul 31, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
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"If you shoot an intruder at your house make sure they stay in the house. If they crawl out of the house and die drag them back in....."
I was told that by an old girlfriend many years ago. She had learned that from the law enforcement in Texas where she grew up.
80 year old be should be prosecuted and go away for most if not all of his remaining life. No way he should have gone that far in my opinion.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 31, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
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The other criminal should pay the heavier price for the killing.
The surviving burglar almost certianly will, under the felony-murder rules. At least under California law, the homoeowner is still criminally liable, too, if a reasonable person would conclude that his or her life or safety is no longer in jeopardy from the intruder. On the facts presented, a trier of fact could find second degree murder or voluntary manslaughter.
I suspect the homeowner will do little hard time, though, unless the sentencing judge thinks he remains a real threat to society. California prisons are so crowded, we're seeing a lot of "catch and release" law enforcement here.
John
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jul 31, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
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Don't break into people's houses and you won't get shot. Is if that f*#king hard to comprehend?
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 31, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
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Having been broken into three times and three times been told by my local PD that "we don't really spend much energy investigating property crimes...budget cuts and all you know"...I think we are at the point where what choice do we have but to protect our own.
The most recent ripper attempt was botched by my wife walking in on the perps who split out the back after whacking her with the door first to stall her entry. She ran them down well enough to get positive IDs but the local PD didn't give a crap.
So I paid a ex-Marine Recon friend of a friend to find the scumbags and although I asked for none of the details...they were "convinced" to at least leave my place alone.
Next time we will shoot them.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 31, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
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LOL,
At once upon a time I built a couple of tile plants.
That was back before the AQMD and EPA ran them all off to China.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 31, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Jim - I don't worry about jail - I live in California where you negotiate a price with the judge, write a check and all is good.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jul 31, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Those poor pill heads. I'll make sure I scream I'm pregnant when I'm breaking the next 80 yr. old's collar bone on my 3rd robbery attempt.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 31, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
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I call BS - firstly, it's those same coppers who set the expectations of the citizenry. Not my fault they can't or won't live up to those same set of standards. Interesting to note that while they won't go after rippers, they have no problems funding officers to cruise through shopping mall parking lots ticketing expired registrations. Difference - one investigation generates no revenue while the other garners fine money. Law and Order is all about the money these days.
Taxation - again, I live in Taxafornia. The problem isn't that I don't pay enough taxes, it's that the money is diverted into overblown and underfunded pension plans for the so-called "public servants".
As for your third point - when those who are sworn and paid to "protect and serve" no longer do so - I see no reason why a free citizen cannot do so themselves.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jul 31, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
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Can they pass the Canadian citizenship test?
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
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Pursued them outside the house. 2nd degree murder or maybe manslaughter. Lock him up.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
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This isn't the first time this crew robbed that old guy. They had been there twice before.
Being how this old guy's house was on the robbers regular route, he had every reason to believe that they would return. Every time they robbed this old guy, they escalated the level of violence. Concluding with body slamming the 80-year-old on his head, breaking his collarbone. Following the pattern the thugs demonstrated, the next time they showed up it was going to be worse.
The authorities had multiple chances to arrest the thugs, but failed to do so. They better not come after the old guy, after they failed to do their job.
The dead bitch's Mom was arrested for murder, too. It seems she was working as a "lookout" for her bitch daughter and her bitch daughter's scumbag boyfriend. She did a piss-poor job of looking out apparently, and now her bitch daughter is dead, and she'll have a new home in The Joint. I hope she got a good look at the shooting, so her bitch daughter's begging for her life, gurgling, gagging and death throes will give something to remember forever about her last days of freedom.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
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Bring the liberals and conservatives together by developing a safe method for aborting unwanted pregnancies by firearm.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
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.22 smith and wesson did the job...what's all the racket about needing a .45 to stop an aggressor...? NRA marketing ploy...?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
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Mr Brennan writes:
"If successfully shaking your fist at government waste and then decrying the lack of performance by police because you voted them into insignificance through tax cuts equals logical thinking, I can understand why cartoons are the prime time favourites of Americans."
Tell me about "tax cuts" in California, because I must have missed those.
We get tax increases here. No cuts.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
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Chaz posted This isn't the first time this crew robbed that old guy. They had been there twice before.
There is no reality in which it is then justified to pursue them and then kill them.
Chaz continued We get tax increases here. No cuts.
Obama signed the broadest tax cut in history. Should have helped offset some of your California problems. You're welcome.
Chaz said The dead bitch's Mom was arrested for murder, too. It seems she was working as a "lookout" for her bitch daughter and her bitch daughter's scumbag boyfriend. She did a piss-poor job of looking out apparently, and now her bitch daughter is dead, and she'll have a new home in The Joint. I hope she got a good look at the shooting, so her bitch daughter's begging for her life, gurgling, gagging and death throes will give something to remember forever about her last days of freedom.
You seem pretty mad, Chaz. When he gets out of prison you two can join a Men's Rights group together and talk about all the "bitches" you want to kill.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
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Unless they broke your collarbone and pissed you off...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
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You're right. Having broken someone's collarbone sometime in the past is grounds for justified homicide in 37 states.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:50pm PT
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HHDJ writes:
"Obama signed the biggest tax cut in history. Should have helped offset some of your California problems. You're welcome."
The Federal Government pays for the Long Beach Police Department? Are you certain of that?
State and local taxes in California haven't been cut. Just the opposite. That's what pays for local cops. State and local taxes.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
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HDDJ.. I didn't say i was right but this Obama Care has the country on edge...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 31, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
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From the link HHDJ posted:
"Federal funding will support LBPD’s cold case unit through 2011"
The shooting happened in 2014. The 2011 money was all gone by 2012.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 31, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
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Tell me about "tax cuts" in California, because I must have missed those.
We get tax increases here. No cuts.
Haven't been paying attention, eh, Chaz?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 31, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
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Can you tell me what taxes were lowered in California, Gary?
Contrary to what Mr Brennan wrote, California voted to raise taxes the last time the choice was on the ballot.
Almost enough to get me to side with Mr Milktoast, and shitcan the initiative process, if it's going to be used to raise taxes.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 31, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
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Bubbles...Iowa by the sea...that's pretty fking hilarious...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 31, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
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He may get charged for assault with a dead weapon...? Stop stuttering jebus...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 31, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
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if i;m on the jury,
he's goin home to his tv dinner
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 31, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
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Chaz,
The Governator lowered the car tax. And of course there was Prop 13 which has more or less flushed us down the toilet.
Everybody wants government services. For free.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
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This is not like forgetting to turn off the stove, water the plants or check the mail.
At 80 years old, as far as discretion and problem solving goes, sure it could be. (And the guy was assaulted. Far far from "cold" blood.)
At 80, but for the "grace of God," I might've done the same thing.
Just see how many opinions would change in regard to "justice" were it a scraggly male instead of a (potentially pregnant) good-looking female.
We are biased to the marrow. (And there's no escape.)
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 31, 2014 - 10:12pm PT
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Wow, the rednecks sure come out in these forums. Not sure why people who own guns think they aren't responsible for using them.
I think a charge could be made for murder 1. The assailants were fleeing, no longer in his home. He was armed; they were not. He made a decision to follow them, corner them, talk with them, and then shoot one. Any credible self defense claim stopped once they left the home.
If I were the DA, not sure if I'd charge him with murder 1, but it wouldn't be unreasonable under the circumstances. Yet another example of guns getting the owner in trouble. Social Darwinism at work.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 31, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
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a (potentially pregnant) good-looking female.
That is the most sexist line I've heard in a while.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
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Chaz posted The shooting happened in 2014. The 2011 money was all gone by 2012.
And? I've pointed out how Obama has both funded your police department and given you a tax break. All you can do is look for reasons to complain about it. Go back to Whingertina. No Real American complains this much about how nobody helps them.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 31, 2014 - 10:23pm PT
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Any credible self defense claim stopped once they left the home
In war an enemy retreats in the afternoon and comes back in the morning to kill you. Give the old guy a medal.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 31, 2014 - 10:35pm PT
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HDDJ writes:
"And? I've pointed out how Obama has both funded your police department and given you a tax break."
Where was my Obama tax break?
California enjoys the Nation's highest income tax, gas tax, and sales tax.
Lack of tax money is not the problem in California.
"Pay up, or die. No cost too high" seems to be your position. A position you share with such esteemed organizations as the Mexican Mafia.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 31, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
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chaz, you haven't heard of Prop 13?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 31, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
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Prop 13 didn't cut taxes. It just damped their rate of growth. Property taxes never went down in California. No tax cuts there.
Like a ratchet. Taxes in California only move in one direction. Up.
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
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Good looking female? Looked like a friggin skank to me
Glad fat dad isn't a da
The guy f*#ked up chasing them...but heat of the moment, extenuating circumstance of prior run ins with the same scums...voluntary manslaughter...then pin a medal on him, suspended sentence and take his guns away.
He could make a case that he feared they would return yet again...I would say they threatened to get a gun and come back.
When seconds count the cops are always minutes away
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 31, 2014 - 11:40pm PT
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I like how she begged for her life, even lying about being pregnant, yet was snuffed anyway. Right to the end, being duplicitous, and she saw how it paid off. I hope Mom saw it all.
She realized her mistake after it was too late, but she was too f*#king stupid to see it coming ahead of time.
The boyfriend probably put her up to it, but she's the one who chose a felon loser to be her boyfriend, which is 100% on her.
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
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Too bad he didn't get that motherf*#ker too
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Chaz posted I like how she begged for her life, even lying about being pregnant, yet was snuffed anyway. Right to the end, being duplicitous, and she saw how it paid off. I hope Mom saw it all.
Quoting for posterity.
Chaz posted Where was my Obama tax break?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Work_Pay_tax_credit
Didn't even see a tax cut right under your own nose. Probably spent the money on Birther paraphenalia. By the way, if California is so awful, why don't you move? Apparently it's a terrible, terrible place to live and full of people who aren't nearly as hateful as you are.
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overwatch
climber
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Good one
"quoting for posterity"
Don't bother. I doubt Chaz will suddenly come back and delete after wringing his hands over what you guys think
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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He feared for his life. He was justified in his actions.
Although the perp/victim had removed herself as an immediate threat to him, he did not know if it would return.
Unfortunately, he may still be found guilty of a crime.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Prop 13 didn't cut taxes. It just damped their rate of growth. Property taxes never went down in California. No tax cuts there.
Like a ratchet. Taxes in California only move in one direction. Up.
The best you can do is just to make stuff up? Really? That's your intellectual firepower?
The most significant portion of the act is the first paragraph, which limited the tax rate for real estate:
Section 1. (a) The maximum amount of any ad valorem tax on real property shall not exceed one percent (1%) of the full cash value of such property. The one percent (1%) tax to be collected by the counties and apportioned according to law to the districts within the counties.
<which means that if it was higher than 1%, you got a tax cut>
The proposition decreased property taxes by assessing property values at their 1975 value and restricted annual increases of assessed value of real property to an inflation factor, not to exceed 2% per year. It also prohibited reassessment of a new base year value except for in cases of (a) change in ownership, or (b) completion of new construction.
In addition to decreasing property taxes, the initiative also contained language requiring a two-thirds majority in both legislative houses for future increases of any state tax rates or amounts of revenue collected, including income tax rates.
Unlike a carpetbagger like yourself, I was actually here and lived through it. It produced a TAX CUT.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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If you choose to keep a gun in your home for protection (I do) you have to be very clear, in your mind, what type of situation calls for the use of deadly force and what does not. Clearly, shooting someone in the back as they flee a crime scene does not.
Even if they injured you and even if you think they have robbed you previously, shooting someone in the back as they are trying to get away crosses the line between self defense and revenge. Any gun owner who cannot make this distinction might want to think twice about their reason for having a gun in he first place.
Perhaps a fair deal would be for the old guy to plead guilty to a felony charge in exchange for no hard time (losing his right to own a gun,) and the dirt-bag who got the young woman involved in the crime in the first place should have the book thrown at him.
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overwatch
climber
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Why does everyone assume the delicate flower was led astray by the doodsh?
I didn't see that anywhere in the op article but I couldn't get to the last page for some reason, out wouldn't click to it on my pos phone. I don't watch tv news
I just read through the article again and out actually calls the dude the accomplice which indicates equal culpability to me.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Why does everyone assume the delicate flower was led astray by the doodsh?
News reports, and of course they are always right...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Even if they injured you and even if you think they have robbed you previously, shooting someone in the back as they are trying to get away crosses the line between self defense and revenge. Any gun owner who cannot make this distinction might want to think twice about their reason for having a gun in he first place.
Spot on.
He was justified in responding to the initial threat in his home with deadly force. But chasing and shooting can't be justified under any state's self-defense doctrines (much less morally, imo).
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Glad fat dad isn't a da Got an offer to work at the DA's after graduating but was hoping to get a job instead with the PD's office, which never happened.
I couldn't be a prosecutor. Too many tough calls that you don't always have the discretion to charge or not, depending on how politically motivated the head DA is. Having said that, given that my tendency is to give people the benefit of the doubt, I don't have alot of leeway to give this old guy. I think it's that clear he acted out of revenge, not self defense.
Why is it that people that push so hard for the right to bear arms are the first ones to say it wasn't my fault when they shoot someone? Hunting accidents, confrontations gone wrong, etc. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? If the cops had treated a fleeing criminal this way, would we be having this discussion?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Do you recall they repeatedly assaulted the old man? breaking his collar bone, no less? This isn't nearly so black n white as "shooting someone in the back" or "in cold blood" suggests. Who's to say not trying to stop them wouldn't lead to more similar incidents the next night or next week. Like John Wayne said, "Don't like the treatment, stop robbing the banks."
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overwatch
climber
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Not enough gun owners seek out realistic tactical training under stress along with class room time on legalities of deadly force, which should be mandatory in my opinion
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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HFCS, the problem with chasing and shooting in the back is that you are entitled to use deadly force only to neutralize an "immediate threat," which they were not as they were fleeing.
No state law (as written, not as might be interpreted by a jury) supports "self defense" in preemptive fashion, such as: "They might come right back next week." Once the "immediate threat" has been neutralized, you're done.
Colorado, for example, has one of the strongest castle doctrines in the US, and even in Colorado, once they were fleeing he had to stop shooting. In fact, the "line" of what counts as "immediate threat" is so fine-grained that you can go to prison for continuing to shoot an assailant who was dropped to his knees and therefor no longer moving toward you.
Obviously, in the stress of a shooting situation, and with the average person pulling the trigger repeatedly and as fast as possible, some of these "lines" are pretty hard to establish in court. But, technically, the SECOND the threat has been neutralized, you have to stop employing deadly force. The stated goal in self-defense doctrines is NOT to kill the threat nor preempt the threat from ever returning. It is solely and entirely to neutralize the "immediate threat."
Ergo: shooting a fleeing assailant in the back is never going to pass muster under any state's self-defense doctrine, including Colorado's.
And this "line" is one that should be well understood by every gun owner, particularly gun-carriers!
Of course, what a jury will do is wide open spaces!
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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He was justified in responding to the initial threat in his home with deadly force. But chasing and shooting can't be justified under any state's self-defense doctrines (much less morally, imo).
Not exactly true...
CAL. PEN. CODE § 197 :
Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person,
The weird thing is that shooting someone after an assault would not fall under this clause because the felonious act is over, while shooting someone during a robbery might, as it could be argued that the felony is still in progress...
See, I can argue with you even when I agree with you!
TE
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overwatch
climber
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The final line I was taught in literally thousands of hours of tactical weapons training was that it is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
I vowed years ago that I would never die on my knees at the hands of scum.
Please note my original post said the guy made a mistake by pursuing them.
Edit:
Not to quibble, madbolter, but it is carried by six as in carried by pallbearers...works either way though and it is the bottom line for me, whether armed or unarmed.
If someone has me under the gun I am trying for it the first chance I get. I won't assume they will let me live if I comply.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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See, I can argue with you even when I agree with you!
Indeed. Which is why I've learned that it's a waste of my time to argue with you. Even the clause you cite makes my point. The felony was over. The suspects were fleeing.
In most states (Colorado included) the guy could have used less than deadly force to apprehend and subdue the suspects while waiting for the police to arrive. Even cops must use less than deadly force to apprehend/subdue a fleeing suspect (unless, of course, the suspect is committing a felonious act that puts others in harm's way in the course of flight).
Again, no telling what a jury is going to do. But the guy pretty clearly crossed "the line" (in any state) by shooting a fleeing suspect.
"Tried by twelve rather than buried by six" is indeed a good line, and it will inform use-of-force choices in many situation! For gun carriers: Know your state! The way the laws gets parsed out and typically interpreted in trials makes all the difference and varies significantly state by state!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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weird thing is that shooting someone after an assault That's not weird. That's our heritage of Anglo Saxon law. Use of force to defend your life and property might be allowed because you cannot predict the possible resulting harm to yourself, including possibly death. After someone has stolen your Twinkies and is running away you can't murder them. That is a disproportionate response to the original offense and your injury.
If they are close and coming towards you with a butcher knife, shoot away.
Unfortunately the NRA and ALEC have poisoned American beliefs to the point that many think shooting or killing someone who is fleeing is OK, even a Right.
We have police and courts to bring people to justice Under The Law when there's been a crime. The burglary defendant has a Constitutional right to trial by jury. Now taken away by the murderer.
This is what the Long Beach Police Chief said
"Basically, you can defend yourself if you're in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death," McDonnell said...
While the suspects continued to burglarize the home, [Greer] was able to retrieve a gun from another room in the house. He returned to confront the suspects and fired his gun at them while they were still inside his house," said Chief McDonnell. Police said Greer followed the suspects as they fled the house with what they had stolen and fatally shot Miller outside in an alley.
Whether the shooting victim was female, or pregnant or ugly are irrelevant. So is the shooter's age.
Although a Judge may consider shooter's age and previous events such as the previous burglaries in instructions to the jury and sentencing.
Yes, I said "shooting victim". Greer inverted justice when he followed them outside and then took it into his own hands.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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If you choose to keep a gun in your home for protection (I do) you have to be very clear, in your mind, what type of situation calls for the use of deadly force and what does not. Clearly, shooting someone in the back as they flee a crime scene does not.
Even if they injured you and even if you think they have robbed you previously, shooting someone in the back as they are trying to get away crosses the line between self defense and revenge. Any gun owner who cannot make this distinction might want to think twice about their reason for having a gun in he first place.
Perhaps a fair deal would be for the old guy to plead guilty to a felony charge in exchange for no hard time (losing his right to own a gun,) and the dirt-bag who got the young woman involved in the crime in the first place should have the book thrown at him.
I disagree that the old guy was necessarily acting out of a sense of "revenge."
More likely to me, he was acting according to his own, reasonable, view of "self defense." These guys had robbed him before, had just robbed him and beat the hell of him, and there's no reason for him to think that they wouldn't come back and rob and beat him at least as badly as they had already done, if not worse.
His ability to survive such repeated beatings seems questionable.
But the problem is that the law of self-defense doesn't really allow for that type of thinking, as rational as it may be.
Not saying the law is right or wrong, it is what it is and he was almost certainly outside the bounds of it.
Hopefully some sort of deal can be worked out where the guy doesn't do any jail time, turns in his guns, and maybe moves to a safer place.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Such a severe beating that he had to time go retrieve his gun, and then chase them down outside. Uh, huh.
Only cops can get away with shooting someone in the back.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Events seldom turn out well when citizens take the law into their own hands.
No matter how justified they feel.
Written laws have evolved for the past 3000 years. They exist much more to protect society and the victim than the culprit but even the culprit has rights. These fundamental beliefs span societies and religions.
Why?
Because any of us, at any time, can be misconstrued as a culprit.
Like Trayvon Martin.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Even the clause you cite makes my point. The felony was over. The suspects were fleeing.
I agree completely with your moral analysis, but a few years ago I read of a very similar case with a storekeeper where the defense was that a robbery remained "in progress" as the thief was fleeing, I think that could easily be enough to convince a jury who might feel that the dead scumbag had it coming. Obviously, unless the burglars in this case had actually stolen something, this would not apply here in any case. Also the wording of the CA code is "justifiable", not "justified".
I also agree with you completely about training and education, the difference is that your libertarian views mean that you believe everyone should be trusted to recognize the grave responsibility they are undertaking and voluntarily seek such training and education, while my cynical (not liberal) view is that few people will ever voluntarily do so and that lives would be saved by making responsible gun ownership a legal requirement, even if some of those saved would be scumbags.
As yet another example of absurd laws on the subject, in PA, to shoot rabbits with a .22 on my own property I am required to undertake a safety course, while to carry a loaded handgun in public with the implicit purpose of shooting another human being, no such training is required.
TE
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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As we've repeatedly noted, who knows what a jury will do with it? Still "in progress?" Who knows?!?
I also agree with you completely about training and education, the difference is that your libertarian views mean that you believe everyone should be trusted to recognize the grave responsibility they are undertaking and voluntarily seek such training and education, while my cynical (not liberal) view is that few people will ever voluntarily do so and that lives would be saved by making responsible gun ownership a legal requirement, even if some of those saved would be scumbags.
No, you are mistaken about my "libertarian" view. I have repeatedly said on the gun thread that I think the bar should be higher for both cops and citizens to qualify to be able to carry a gun in public. I've repeatedly said that I'm shocked and dismayed to see how LOW the bar is to get a CCW, with NO bar to open-carry. I've said that I think one should have to qualify for a CCW in order to carry at all, and then the decision to open or concealed carry becomes strictly a tactical/convenience one.
So, you've completely misstated my perspective.
As yet another example of absurd laws on the subject, in PA, to shoot rabbits with a .22 on my own property I am required to undertake a safety course, while to carry a loaded handgun in public with the implicit purpose of shooting another human being, no such training is required.
Agreed! It is absurd. See my above paragraph.
I do believe in a "shall issue" approach to CCWs, but to me that MEANS qualifying under the terms of a background check and rigorous training course including lots of live fire and tactical/legal scenario-parsing. Once a person has satisfied those criteria, the state "shall issue" the CCW. I don't like California's approach, which puts the burden of "demonstrating need" on the citizen.
A proper and responsible approach to carrying should not "infringe" on anybody's right to both keep and "bear" arms. And, again, I think the bar set for getting the CCW should be the same bar to carry at all.
At that point, the only people carrying guns (legally) will be committed, responsible, and probably better trained than the cops (which is a sham all in its own right).
I'll go one better. Like me, all gun carriers should be insured. If you have to be insured to drive your car, because the average citizen cannot "self-insure" by being independently wealthy enough to cover the costs and fallout of an accident, just so, the average carrying citizen cannot cover the costs and fallout from a shooting. So, along with your CCW, you should have to show proof of insurance to legally carry.
You can own a car and never register it to be on the street, and you never drive it. Just so, you can own a gun and never qualify for a CCW and thus be legal to carry it in public.
I'm all for the bar to be MUCH higher than it is!
Of course, this present case was a castle-defense scenario until the guy took it out to the street. And out on the street is where the whole thing gets all muddy.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Madbolter, I see your points.
Now if only we could agree on "free will", lol!
Have a good weekend!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Now if only we could agree on "free will", lol!
LOL... taint likely. Hehe
You have a good one also!
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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I'll agree with all of that, unfortunately our elected "representatives" are paid to vote otherwise. For now.
Based on the typical accuracy of reporting, I'm reluctant to comment on exactly what should happen to that guy, but some jail, and prohibition from ever owning guns is a minimum. Depending on provable facts of the case, much more may be appropriate.
TE
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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I'd argue the old guy tried to shoot into the air and missed. An accident that was a result of felony, so the felons are responsible for the consequences. The accomplice goes to jail for murder.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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all gun carriers should be insured. If you have to be insured to drive your car, because the average citizen cannot "self-insure" by being independently wealthy enough to cover the costs and fallout of an accident, just so, the average carrying citizen cannot cover the costs and fallout from a shooting. So, along with your CCW, you should have to show proof of insurance to legally carry. I've been saying that for over a year.
Plus licensing the firearm from Factory to Scrapyard
Just like autos but with higher penalties. You're found in possession of an unlicensed gun and it's prima facie a felony.
Unfortunately with nearly 300 firearms in private possession in the US, the grandfather clause would be unmanageable.
So start every time an un licensed gun leaves a dealer.
At least it's a start.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Cleanse the planet of stupid people...Begin by forcing couples to pass an inteligence test before reproducing..end of story...This would eliminate the Republican party and allow our country to progress...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Cleanse the planet of stupid people...Begin by forcing couples to pass an inteligence test before reproducing..end of story...This would eliminate the Republican party and allow our country to progress...
ROFL
Good one! (Although, I've gotta smile at your misspelling of "intelligence." Oh, the irony.)
I would make only one, minor modification: This would eliminate both republicans and democrats, leaving only libertarians, and allow our country to return to what it was designed to be.
I don't need no stinkin' "progress" or "change." I want to "regress" to what the founders designed.
John Wayne was brilliant: "Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid."
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Life is harder for Locker...rj
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Psilocyborg
climber
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I dont know what he should be charged with but I am not losing any sleep over her death.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Thanks to many of you for posting your opinions.
The definition of "dumb f*#k" is so much clearer.
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WBraun
climber
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Yep ... no matter what
Some stupid Americans fuked with the wrong guy.
You fuk with the wrong guy and you could end up dead no matter how many rules and laws exist.
Moral of the story ....
Do not become a stupid American :-)
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crankster
Trad climber
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Wring. The moral of this story will be that if you chase someone down the street and murder them you will spend a great deal of time behind bars.
Yes, don't be a stupid American.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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stupid Americans
Epidemic in Canada as well.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Brennan...I was thinking something along the lines of an essay...
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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My tools to break into my safe, hold me back.
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