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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2014 - 08:10am PT
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http://www.latimes.com/local/great-reads/la-me-c1-relic-hunter-20140724-story.html#page=1
Owens Valley relic hunter not one to back down
By Louis Sahagun contact the reporter
This article is related to:
Norman Starks, the anti-hero of Owens Valley, greeted a stranger at his door with something like a defiant haiku..
"Fifty-three Neanderthals," he sputtered.
"Twelve hours."
"I beat 'em twice."
Starks stood on his decrepit porch surrounded by relics of a Native American civilization that once flourished in this valley. His home and yard were strewn with hundreds of prehistoric cutting tools, granite bowls, beads, rock etchings, arrowheads and grinding stones.
They are his trophies, the product of a life's obsession with gathering ancient artifacts from the surrounding lands — and they are the reason 53 federal agents raided his home last month on his 76th birthday.
Agents spent 12 hours rummaging through his century-old house, seizing artifacts they say he illegally dug up on public land.
Lone Pine resident Norman Starks, 76, with a framed collection of arrowheads at his Lone Pine home.
Norman Starks holds a small portion of his arrowhead collection, left behind by federal agents who raided his Lone Pine home.
Norman Starks of Lone Pine holds an arrowhead from his collection, much of which was seized by federal agents.
"They made a real mess of things around here and scattered my prescription medicine bottles from hell to breakfast," Starks grumbled.
"Thing of it is, I can explain everything, but the Neanderthals won't listen to me."
He hasn't been listening to them, either.
The raid marked the third time in a decade that state and federal authorities have tried to end what they allege is his looting of the prehistoric items. The first two attempts failed.
Paiute-Shoshone tribal leaders and federal archaeologists say Starks has destroyed priceless cultural connections, along with scientific data that could help determine human behavior from the distant past.
Many of the items he has collected are sacred, they say, placed by loved ones at the graves of hunter-gatherers for use in the afterlife.
"What he's doing is heartbreaking, disrespectful and illegal," said Kathy Jefferson Bancroft, tribal historic preservation officer for the Lone Pine Paiute-Shoshone Reservation. "It must stop."
Not going to happen, Starks says. Spend a couple of days with him and it's easy to see why. His is a personality unacquainted with the concept of retreat.
He scoffs at the idea that the artifacts are sacred.
"The Indians that made this stuff didn't think it was anything special," he said. "They used it and tossed it aside. It was just used junk to them."
::
Starks is ruggedly handsome if vaguely frail, with close-cropped gray hair, a sunburned face and a new kidney that has him off dialysis for the first time in years. He was once a star of cattle-roping competitions, and he worked as an aqueduct keeper for the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power before retiring.
His roots in the valley go back to his grandparents, pioneers who raised several children in what now serves as a storage shed on the property.
“What he's doing is heartbreaking, disrespectful and illegal. It must stop.”- Kathy Jefferson Bancroft, tribal historic preservation officer
t▼
In the living room of the house he inherited from the family, coiled ropes, boxes of ammunition and cowboy hats are stacked among ancient tools used for processing food and chipping stone and wood into arrowheads, darts and spears.
The place once had a woman's touch, but his wife left him for another man, he said, glancing out a dusty window pane.
Many of this town's 2,000 people know Starks — and they know that the Eastern Sierra is dense with ancient Indian artifacts.
Like Starks, some believe the government has no business protecting the bits and pieces of history that occasionally surface in the sand or the foothills. They complain that the government is overreaching on Starks in particular.
"He's a straight shooter," a friend said.
A prison term would kill him, said another.
Yet even his buddies acknowledge that Starks has issues (which is the reason they don't want to be quoted by name).
"Norman has a weird obsession and nasty habit of consciously thumbing his nose at critics," said an Inyo County official.
As one old-timer said over a beer at the Chevron station, "If you're a mouse, you don't keep giving the finger to an eagle and not expect to get eaten."
Starks said he can explain.
Leaning back on a dingy beige couch, he recalled that he started hunting for relics when he was 5. It was the early 1940s, when it was popular recreation in the sparsely populated region.
"On Sundays, families went to church and then went arrowhead hunting," he said.
As the decades passed and Native Americans began objecting to the collection of relics, many locals cut back or stopped altogether.
Not Starks.
"I'd rather do that than sit in a bar or watch video games," he said. "It's a great way to get some exercise and give my dogs a run."
Lifelong Lone Pine, Calif., resident Norman Starks cherishes his collection of relics, gathered in the desert surrounding his Owens Valley community.
The original federal case against Starks, under the Archaeological Resources Protection Act, fizzled in 2004 after the statute of limitations ran out.
The state then made a run on charges he was looting artifacts on DWP land, but the case ended with a hung jury in 2011. Too many of his peers had their own cherished collections of relics.
Before that case ended, however, Starks agreed to a court order barring him from ever setting foot on a 700-acre patch of Keeler Dunes, a slice of Bureau of Land Management land rich with relics.
The agreement didn't stop him from collecting. Instead, he insists that he limited himself to artifacts found legally on private property near the restricted area. Now, he said, authorities are trying to frame him.
Some of the evidence seized during the June 26 raid was "planted in my house," he said. Other relics "were stolen by the investigators and archaeologists while they were going through all my stuff."
Their motive? He said they are in a conspiracy with tribal leaders and the DWP to stop a lawsuit he filed against the water agency. The lawsuit, scheduled for trial Sept. 15, accuses the DWP of illegally seizing control of century-old water rights on his property.
"That water is worth millions," Starks said.
DWP workers with binoculars and cellphones routinely alert other conspirators to his whereabouts, he said. If the telephone rings and the caller fails to leave a message, he assumes it's a tribal official.
"If I answer the phone, they call off the dogs because they know I'm home."
To toy with them, he said, he often doesn't answer.
Starks has special scorn for Bancroft, the Paiute-Shoshone preservation officer. He thinks she has a vendetta against him and won't stop "as long as she is alive."
And then there's Gregory J. Haverstock, a federal archaeologist devoted to stopping Starks.
Haverstock provided critical evidence in the state case that failed three years ago. He reported seeing Starks use a golf club in 2009 to dig near a prehistoric burial site in Keeler Dunes.
Starks claimed he was searching for old coins along a railroad line when Haverstock saw him. He said the railroad easement is private property.
An archaeological report said 44 holes were found clustered in the immediate vicinity of the burial site, about 100 feet uphill from the rail line.
"The suspect's footprints were noted at each location as well as dog prints," the report said.
Federal authorities decline to comment on last month's raid. If the case goes to trial, it will be heard by a Fresno jury far removed from Starks' peers in Lone Pine.
“It's just a natural high to find things this old and wonder who did it.”- Norman Starks
Even so, he's brimming with confidence.
"They say they have a picture of me in the place I wasn't supposed to be," Starks said of photos the government reportedly has showing him at the dunes. "But they're wrong."
What was he doing near the dunes?
"I was looking for old coins along a railroad easement, which is private property."
The golf clubs?
"I use them for walking sticks" and fending off rattlesnakes.
Where did he get the pile of massive stone relics on his front porch?
"They were my grandfather's." He said 90% of his collection predates federal laws against taking items from public land.
Holding up a picture frame display of arrowheads, his eyes brightened and his voice ticked up a notch.
"It's just a natural high to find things this old and wonder who did it," he said.
Besides, he added, "arrowheads are as common as goats' asses around here."
Louis.sahagun@latimes.com
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:21am PT
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disrespectful shitbag.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:25am PT
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Yep. Boohoo hoo.^^^^
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:26am PT
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Why did they raid his home? By the article it sounds like he's a regular poster, they could've started a Benghazi thread and he'd be here for 3 months straight arguing with Dr. F and we'd never see an arrowhead go missing again.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:28am PT
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Fifty-three Neanderthals
Twelve Hours
I beat 'em twice.
Musashi would be proud....
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Rudbud
Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:31am PT
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disrespectful shitbag.
Have some perspective boss, its a free country. I think its cool what he finds, I'm ok with it, keep on keepin on Starks!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:32am PT
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Wow... I have a cool flint knife, I found, on the ground.... Am I a dirt bag????
Should I give it back?
to who?
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:38am PT
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Those relics are just trash without their context. You leave them where you find them. They are a non-renewable resource. No one person gets to decide what is right or wrong on public land.
How many people enjoyed finding those same artifacts and left them where they lay before he took them?
He's disrespectful.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:39am PT
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Go put it back where you found it.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:40am PT
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I can understand that the artifacts he's collected have value to him. However, he defends his actions by saying it's just junk that was abandoned, which is clearly not the case. It's great to have hobbies, and it's great to collect. But it's even better to have and give respect. This guy doesn't get that. Perhaps if he wasn't so busy trying to be a jackass to everyone, he might be able to express what value these items have to him. He doesn't do that, though, so he appears to be just a looter. Just because he might enjoy the finds doesn't mean he's still not a looter.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:49am PT
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The stuff on your wall is BORING. Even the best artifacts in a museum aren't as exciting as the worst artifacts in their original context.
Every item you take is potentially depriving someone else of the experience of observing real history and the joy of discovery.
Thus, disrespectful to all of us who treasure public land.
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Artrock23
Mountain climber
Laguna Beach, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 09:08am PT
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Have some perspective boss, its a free country. I think its cool what he finds, I'm ok with it, keep on keepin on Starks!
+1
Never fear, though... the ST do-gooders will solve the world's problems yet!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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Locker,
That's Mrs. Kravitz (Bewitched), not Peyton Place. :)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 24, 2014 - 09:20am PT
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It's a free country....with laws. Disagree with a law if you will, but be willing to pay the price if you break it. Time for the dude to "cowboy up."
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 09:56am PT
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There are hawk feathers all over my yard. If I pick one up, I've committed a felony. Please explain the logic behind that foolish law.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:14am PT
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There are hawk feathers all over my yard. If I pick one up, I've committed a felony. Please explain the logic behind that foolish law.
This does not apply to just hawks, but to all migratory birds, over 80% of the birds in this country are migratory. It would be nice to be able to freely pick up feathers and picking up feathers in your yard would not negatively affect the species. However, once possession is allowed people, like the crazy old coot in Lone Pine, would be raiding nests to grab feathers, and probably hunting the birds too. A total ban is needed to protect the birds.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:23am PT
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Mr Milktoast writes:
"Sure. There are low life scum who shoot hawks to collect their feathers."
You don't have to shoot them. They natuarally shed enough feathers to keep any non-Indian stocked.
The prohibition on actually shooting hawks makes sense.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:28am PT
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Come on Chaz, do not disappoint us, go ahead and parrot the tired old meme about how your freedom should not be infringed upon by the bad acts of a few.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jul 24, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
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I used to enjoy picking up artifacts. I have a small collection. But all they do is collect dust on the shelf.
Now I enjoy finding them but I leave them in place. Hopefully the next person will enjoy that moment of discovery. And the next, and the next.
I have one piece that is probably 8000 years or so. Clovis point. My lifetime is just a flicker in it's lifetime. It was given to me by the Mojave desert. As gift for showing my respect. I hope to give it back someday in the spirit of potlatch.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
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I read that article this morning in the paper too.
I wish that at some point he would have stopped the collecting, especially when asked by the tribe - at least to show some respect for them if not the government. He shows no sensitivity to the people to whom these artifacts actually belong (if they "belong" to anyone).
And what about the "private property" he took items from (he kept mentioning that he "only took things from private property")? If it were my private property I wouldn't be too happy about him trespassing and stealing from me.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
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As heinous as his transgressions are it took 53 federal agents? Really?
That's a lot of donuts.
Let the tribe deal with him in the time honored manner - buried up to his
neck in an ant hill.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
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Federal authorities decline to comment on last month's raid. If the case goes to trial, it will be heard by a Fresno jury far removed from Starks' peers in Lone Pine.
Federal juries in Fresno may be closer to his peers than the author realizes. They tend to be rather conservative, so they respect the FBI, but they also tend to be distrustful of authoritarian people or institutions. If the 53 agents used in the raid gets to the jury, don't be surprised to find at least a hung jury, or even an acquittal.
John
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Jul 24, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
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the guys is coming from an older time...cut him a little slack. He deserves a warning or two before the anthill thing.
He has a point, but in the context of finding those artifacts today it just doesn't hold up. 400 years ago it was trash. Today is treasure. It really is just perspective
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 24, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
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Looters really mess things up for trained archeologists.
Ant hill (and don't forget the honey).
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
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I agree that his attitude towards the artifacts is disrespectful, but 53 government employees? On the tax dole? That is not a good, efficient use of law enforcement resources. How about maybe three people? Or at least no more than five or six?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
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If he had bothered to secure the proper permits, he'd be fine. It takes 53 LEOs to check on permits, because there's reading involved.
He's just another of the great wave of the Undocumented, who are the nearest thing we have to Jesus on Earth, according to Nancy Pelosi.
Mr Milktoast writes:
"That you Chaz?"
Yeah it is! I figured to be on the safe side, I'll just collect the feathers of birds too big to migrate any further than across the street.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
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53 government employees? On the tax dole? That is not a good, efficient use of law enforcement resources
after bundystan? they'd have been irresponsible not to have deployed "overwhelming force," as the recent domestic tactical manuals used to call it.
the guy's own friends, quoted in the article, think he's a nutcase. they said that to out-of-town reporters. what do you think they say to each other? this has dragged on for years--
reasonable expectation is that he's armed, a judicious expectation is that there's a decent chance he might have the place rigged, he's lived there forever and knows his property better than they do, worked for years on the aqueduct, and if he doesn't have a respectable supply of blasting caps and black powder and threaded pipe, then he's doing a really bad job of being a local in ranch country.
anyone blaming the cost of this on the feds is a retard. sorry, but it's true.
let's see you put on the uniform and walk up with a buddy or two to a backcountry place occupied by a sociopathic local whose own friends say he's unstable.
lotta folks on this site climb 5.14 on the internet.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
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For a non-violent property crime, committed by an eighty-year-old?
You send two guys over to knock on his door.
53 armed Federal agents for a permit offense just gives ammunition to the Sovereign Citizen lunatics.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
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For a non-violent property crime, committed by an eighty-year-old?
bundy committed a non-violent property crime.
you fruitloops folks have been going apeshit since that-- i can only imagine what the emails and letters eastside feds and co folks have been getting. i bet death threats is the least of it.
they send two trucks and 4 feds out there and he's got six whackjob buddies with under-used belt-feds and imagine the frickin disaster.
then you'd all be on here crying about how the feds are retards and should've known better.
each one of these is now going to be a massive operation. gonna cost us a fortune. way to go, bro. good job.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
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F*ck the government. I break their laws all the time.
It's not about laws it is about respect.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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Mr Milktoast writes:
"Sure. There are low life scum who shoot hawks to collect their feathers."
Chaz writes:
"You don't have to shoot them. They natuarally shed enough feathers to keep any non-Indian stocked."
The same argument is made about the ivory trade. China and Thailand buy up all tusks being poached in Afica, and then claim it was from Elephants that died of old age. Or elephants that were just molting.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
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Klk writes:
"bundy committed a non-violent property crime."
There's a perfect example.
The Feds could have waited for Bundy to roundup and market his own cattle - which he has to to make any money - and then simply seize the money from his bank accounts. It could have been handled by one guy in one cubicle.
Instead, they accomplished nothing, except for giving ammunition to the Sovereign Citizen lunatics.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
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There's a perfect example.
The Feds could have waited for Bundy to roundup and market his own cattle - which he has to to make any money - and then simply seize the money from his bank accounts. It could have been handled by one guy in one cubicle.
Instead, they accomplished nothing, except for giving ammunition to the Sovereign Citizen lunatics.
um, the thread was about this incident, rather than your horror of the federal govt. set aside bundy for the moment-- given that it happened. and given the current climate and this particular case, i'll repeat what i sad above: the feds would've been irresponsible to head into this without a show of force and some expertise.
i don't know exactly what kind of communication they'd had from the guy, but the things his friends say (and even hint at), gives us a clue.
so far as bundy goes, i haven't been into the archives-- my understanding (based on the media reports) is that went on for years, and the final action was triggered by a court order, rather than on the blm's own schedule. i expect there were years of negotiation with county and state, efforts to pursue other avenues, and it looks like the feds there faced something like a local insurrection-- easy to deal with if you want a bloodbath (cf the debacles at ruby ridge and waco), but tougher if not.
blm, usfs, nps, and atf aren't really military or police institutions, and they don't have great traditions of competence and success in local policing. but we're no longer supposed to do what george washington did-- send the federal army in to crush the rednecks-- so this is what we're stuck with.
democracy is expensive.
delighted to learn yr not one of the militia nuts-- i was worried you were identifying with starks, who seems even less sympathetic a character than bundy.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Jul 24, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
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the guys is coming from an older time...cut him a little slack. He deserves a warning or two before the anthill thing.
The raid marked the third time in a decade that state and federal authorities have tried to end what they allege is his looting of the prehistoric items. The first two attempts failed.
Sounds like he got his warning or two slack. Shall we find the anthill?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jul 24, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
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this has nothing to do with federal protection of the artifacts of the native peoples
just look at the actual history of how the federal government has always treated the native peoples on these lands
this has everything to do with an individual bold enough to deny the authority of the slave masters to control everything and everyone
the self-declared controller gods are psychologically incapable of tolerating any remnants of personal freedoms represented by this old guy
these psychotic controllers must obsessively attack any such examples...this is why climbing will eventually be fully controlled with licensing and regulations
climbing used to be a wilderness sport...however if you need a permit or waiver or license or permission or insurance, then it is not wilderness...
to quote astronaut John Young (two Gemini flights, two Apollo flights to the moon, two Shuttle flights including first to fly the Shuttle, head of the astronaut corp for many years, volunteer for a one way trip to Mars...), "We have to get off this planet, and we have to get off fast!"
so all you super heroes...who is organizing an expedition to climb Olympus Mons???
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 24, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
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Maybe Starks could redeem the stolen bling for cocktails at the Paiute Palace who could then decorate the stuffed Paiute in the glass case with authentic memorabilia...?
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
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You f*#king people can't get over yourselves long enough to see that the f*#king politics don't matter. There are real and priceless pieces of history being plundered. Worst of all, they lose all of their priceless value instantly once moved.
Some federal laws just plain old make sense. Removing the physical evidence of history from public land is reprehensible, especially when the person doing it can't claim ignorance. Why in the f*#k would you not want to preserve tangible, physical evidence of human history for this and future generations. Why is someone destroying that heritage propped up by some of you as some kind of honorable man for standing against a just and worthy law.
Why should the public allow one guy to do this just because it's a fun hobby and he has a rebellious streak?
If y'all are operating under the assumption that historical artifacts are an unlimited resources that can't be quickly exhausted, you're incorrect.
Throw the book at him.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
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OK, he failed to get the proper permits, and he illegally took some stuff home without doing the required paperwork. But 53 armed Federal cops? When one or two would have been enough?
That's what's got people's attention. The heavy-handed response.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
The Peaks
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
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Norman Starks sounds a bit like an climber who can't stop climbing, collecting routes and boulder problems.
I bit like Gregory J. Haverstock, a federal archaeologist and who I used to climb with who is on Norman's case.
Humans eh!
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
The Peaks
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
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Wouldn't they be better getting Norman on their side.
Give him a hat, a badge and a permit, some tools, a camera and a notebook and let him wander free exploring, discovering, collecting and recording?
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
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Archaeological relics are only interesting to people if found and given context. When the coot dies they will become relics again. Remember that the government usually puts it away in a box. Maybe it's in a museum. Maybe it's not.
What Mick said ^^^
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 25, 2014 - 07:40am PT
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The goal isn't too collect artifacts. Mapping their location is useful for various reasons, but seldom is it the goal to actually excavate and collect artifacts from sites. Once again, most sites are best left in tact.
It isn't like what he is doing is particularly hard. The only reason he finds stuff is because other people don't loot arc sites.
It'd be like somebody climbing rnwf of half dome and collecting all the fixed gear because it was just there and nobody else had discovered it.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 25, 2014 - 07:54am PT
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53 government employees..? Why not 54..? Dude sounds like a Kleptomaniac..? For some reason , It's always bugged me when i see someone's arrowhead collection...? Maybe it's the greed factor..? Whatever..
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 25, 2014 - 08:20am PT
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The goal isn't too collect artifacts. Mapping their location is useful for various reasons, but seldom is it the goal to actually excavate and collect artifacts from sites. Once again, most sites are best left in tact.
Franky..... I agree with you about raiding a "site".... sites are very rare and it is a wonderful thing to find one, look and leave.
I know of some in JT and Kings Canyon that looks like someone is going to return any day and resume daily life.
Now you have told me to return the flint knife I found out in the open desert....
to that I say no.
That would accomplish nothing.
I see it this way.... that knife was a mans tool, probably passed down from father to son for generations.
Now something went down to cause that man to loose that knife up at the base of those lonely rocks out near Ridgecrest.
I like to hold that knife and wonder why it was lost, the story from way back in time will never be known.
Now I am a man who works with tools, I earn my living with tools, so did the owner of that knife.
That knife is carefully packed away and it goes with me and my tools to work.
I break it out, sometimes, and think about how that knife ties me to people who lived and worked thousand of years ago, that makes me feel good.
Somehow connected to the human race.
Now, Franky, I can tell you feel very strongly about this issue and I can appreciate your feelings.
And I want to ask you this question.
What do you think about museums?
Places like the Bancroft?
The professional site raiders.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 25, 2014 - 09:10am PT
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I think they are OK, nowhere near as impressive as seeing the the same artifacts in situ. Sometimes that stuff was taken in an earlier time with a less developed ethic regarding archaeology. Unfortunately there is no turning back the clock.
Some sites should be excavated by trained archeologists so understanding of past cultures can be gained, and those materials should be put in a museum to try and bring some of that story to the folks who can't or won't go see it in place. Some sites need to be excavated because of encroaching development.
Again, there is a deference in that a site can be excavated in a way that reveals and preserves the history contained within, or it can be looted with no regard for that history.
I'm glad you treat your knife with an appropriate amount of respect. I wouldn't say throw the book at you for taking it. That being said, you quite possibly have deprived other people of the joy of discovery and the kinship you feel with the past people who used that tool.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 25, 2014 - 09:16am PT
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There is also the sad truth that a museum quality artifact worth hundreds or thousands of dollars can't be left in its original state once discovered. The risk of theft is too great.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jul 25, 2014 - 09:55am PT
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Thanks DMT. Wonderful writing there!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jul 25, 2014 - 11:03am PT
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Franky,
Hypothetical ...
Say you find/discover the World's largest gold nugget on public land. Should you be rewarded/compensated for your discovery?
Say you find an incredible remote Native North American dwelling wIth priceless artifacts and the site is prestine and intact. Should you be rewarded/compensated for your discovery?
Should there be any difference? It takes discoverers to make discoveries. It's not a crime to make discoveries. It's not a crime to do science.
Who gets to reap the rewards for their efforts?
I would surely say over-reaching and extremely heavy handed by government response.
Reminds me of a grandmother who was trying to sell a very small fragment of an Apollo Moon rock given to her late husband by an Apollo Moonwalker, to pay for medical treatment for her grandson. Her husband was in the space industry. The Feds came down on her extremely heavy handed at a Denny's in Lake Elsinore, CA. She was so scared she peed herself. Too much abuse and massive overstep by the government.
Thankfully now the courts have decided that the Moonwalkers can sell their memorabilia from their time on the Moon. It's the right thing to do.
Google that infamous story. Wow. The OP story reminds me of this story. Sad. Just look at all the hits for this infamous NASA nabs grandmother with Apollo Moon rock fragment story. The historical fragment was about the size of a grain of rice! Dang she needs a publicist and an agent.
https://www.google.com/search?q=grandmother+arrested+for+trying+to+sell+a+Moon+rock&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
People should and must be rewarded for their discoveries.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 25, 2014 - 11:07am PT
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You're right. And hopefully the choppers who chopped off pieces of the petroglyphs outside of Bishop will be rewarded handsomely for their discoveries on eBay.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jul 25, 2014 - 11:42am PT
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Jul 25, 2014 - 11:07am PT
You're right. And hopefully the choppers who chopped off pieces of the petroglyphs outside of Bishop will be rewarded handsomely for their discoveries on eBay.
Context Dirtbag. Not the same thing at all. That isn't a discovery. That is destruction and defacement of a known NNA site. That is a crime.
Hunting for arrowheads is not a crime. Weathering and the elements will vanish them eventually and they will be lost to time forever.
Allow people to find them. Take an in-situ image of the arrowhead and take careful notes about the find/discovery, and the time of discovery. Take an accurate GPS location coordinate for the discovery site. Collect it carefully. After you have done so, take close-up images (in stereo!), accurate measurements, measure its mass, and make impressions of both sides. Document it thoroughly. Now you have your memories of your discovery fully documented.
Then take it to the Feds. There should be a fair reward system in place to encourage people to do the right thing. The laws need to change.
Obviously, if its a site, then leave it alone. Do what you can to document the site and artifacts without disturbing it. Keep the location secret. Negotiate with the Feds. Once again there should be a fair reward system in place so that people are encouraged to share their discoveries and that these archaeological discoveries are not lost to time and the elements.
Without a reward/Finder's Fee system there isn't an incentive to bring forth your discoveries.
Franky said ...
Jul 25, 2014 - 09:16am PT
There is also the sad truth that a museum quality artifact worth hundreds or thousands of dollars can't be left in its original state once discovered. The risk of theft is too great.
And you risk losing your discovery too.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jul 25, 2014 - 11:56am PT
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What is the difference between an arrowhead collecting dust on someone's shelf in their house, and an arrowhead collecting dust in a shelf in the back of a museum?
The sad fact of the matter is that 80-90% of professional collected artifacts do not actually see the light of day in a museum display. (My uncle was a professor and ran one of Harvard's museums. I often got to see the shelves of artifacts in the back as a kid).
Why are items that truly were trash (obsidian chips, chipped arrowheads, etc.) now "sacred"?
Did you all really NOT look for these items and pick up some as a kid? I know I did, 25 years ago roaming the desert...
Here is another philosophical question for you all. When does "History" that should be preserved begin? 50 years ago? 100? 200? 500?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 25, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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The sad fact of the matter is that 80-90% of professional collected artifacts do not actually see the light of day in a museum display.
I would put that number at closer to about 98-99%. There really isn't much
science to be garnered from examining arrowheads. It ain't rocket science.
The understanding of the development of the 'technology' is probably about
as good as it is going to get. That said that dood is still a jerk and and
deserves the ant hill, although I differ with Piton Ron on the use of honey.
I wouldn't waste it unless it was cheap stuff.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 25, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
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Yeah klimmer, encourage people to further loot archaeological treasures by encouraging their sale. Great idea.
I'm not a trained archaeologist, but neither is anyone else here, and there are a lot of assumptions here about the artifacts' value to science and understanding of pre-contact cultures. And for that reason, in terms of the damage done to our understanding, there might not be a sliver of difference between the the petroglyph choppers and the Lone Pine Looter and his ilk. The Lone Pine Looter went far beyond picking up an arrowhead or two. He was a selfish as#@&%e. Sorry, it's true.
Oh yeah, this thread has the usual dose of Ayn Rand tit-sucking, knee jerk " government always screws up" diatribe from the usual suspects. To them: yawn. Grow up. Or move to Somalia. No pesky government there to whine about.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jul 25, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
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Jul 25, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
Yeah klimmer, encourage people to further loot archaeological treasures by encouraging their sale. Great idea.
DB,
You have no reading comprehension. Not what I said at all. Didn't encourage anyone to loot archeological sites. Just the opposite. Not encouraging anyone to sell archeological treasures. Asking for a reward/Finder's Fee is not selling. Working with the government not against it. Didn't encourage anything you said.
By the way, I suppose we should give all our archeological treasures in all our museums, the Smithsonian included, back to Egypt, Mexico, Central America, South America, or what ever nations we plundered it from. Right? I mean fair is fair right?
Don't hold your breath. I don't see any museums doing that.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 25, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
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I'm not a trained archaeologist, but neither is anyone else here
Careful there, big fellow. In my yute I was president of one of two Explorer
Posts in the country that specialized in archaeology. I was a diggin' fool.
I dug under the auspices of the LA County Museum, the National Geographic
Society, UCLA, and Louis Leakey. No degree hast I but I do have some street cred. ;-)
But like I said, that dood is a jerk.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 25, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
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Places like the Bancroft?
The professional site raiders.
guyman, you have confused the bancroft with the getty.
the bancroft is not a museum, the b actually prefers not to acquire artifacts. it is an archival and rare book collection that didn't begin to get assembled until the 19th century.
no major museum with which i am familiar openly practices the kind of collection that went on in the 19th century. this is especially true with native artifacts due to a series of different pieces of federal legislation passed over the last several decades.
no one would have been knocking on starks's door i he had picked up a chipped blade at some point.
the cases seem very different-- unless you are confessing to us, here on a public forum, that you systematically loot native sites.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 25, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
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I am not an archeologist, but I have a degree in Anthropology and have been on some digs. I spent a lot of time studying the southwest. As many have said, context, both physical and cultural, is almost as important as the artifact itself. Many times we would replace things after we had completed the stratigraphy. I do have a problem with mass collecting when there is no reason other than to fill a case or make a sale. Some things should just be photographed and left in place so the next person can have the discovery experience. Agree 99% percent of collected items end up gathering dust unless someone doing research happens to pull them out again. I know people enjoy their personal collections, but it is not the same. Saying someone else would take it anyway is rationalizing. I have found many items in Joshua Tree and Anza Borrego that I left in place. It is fun to go back to them occassionally. Unfortunately several have since been taken.
When I first went to Chaco Canyon you could walk around and find pot sherds with fantastic designs, arrowheads, chipping waste etc. lying around everywhere. They intentionally left many ruins unexcavated for the future. It was fantastic. The second time years later, not so much.
My brother and I found a perfect, clear quartz point. It was one of the most beautiful I have ever seen. We put it in a little leather pouch I carried with me and took it with us.
For two days we sat around the campfire and debated what to do with it. We looked at it and discussed each night under the stars. We finally decided to put it back. So we hiked out to the place we found it and I took out the pouch. When I opened it, it was empty. There was no whole in the pouch and it had not been opened since the night before. One of the strangest things I have ever experienced, but we figured it was a sign we had made the right choice.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jul 25, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
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i have several fine examples of obsidian and flint knives and spear heads and other less durable primitive artifacts...i made them myself...
at DOI USFWS my GIS mapping job included designating precise GPS locations for hundreds of sensitive ancient sites, in direct support for DOI archeologists
these precision maps are not in the public domain and i certainly have no interest in revealing these locations to the public or to commercial trophy hunters
a neighboring fourth generation rancher friend owned and respectfully protected the site of a native American village whose location was unknown to my DOI archeologist colleagues...who professionally admitted not having a clue what to do about it even if they were taken to the site
i also knew an old grandmother with a several generation collection of arrow heads collected on the family ranch...and i have no interest in turning her into authorities
one might ask why are we so obsessed with discarded remnants of great civilizations that our barbaric ancestors destroyed, largely still perpetuated by our current government
this is a subject that generates a lot more heat than light, and unfortunately is symptomatic of much larger problems in our society
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okie
Trad climber
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Jul 25, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
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I learned at the facelift that any discarded object over 50 years old is considered an aritfact by the feds. So I left the really old trash in-situ for the next person to enjoy.
At least we still have Yosemite "Golden Age" steel beer cans to enjoy, if not Salathe's can of dates in the Narrows.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jul 25, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
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I learned at the facelift that any discarded object over 50 years old is considered an aritfact by the feds. So I left the really old trash in-situ for the next person to enjoy.
Here, here ^ ! Good Man !
Interesting discussion.
My understanding then is that Yvonne Chouinard's pre-climbing career, hobby would have made him a felon in a contemporary context >
Oh that bastid... he should be stuck in an ant hill with cheese rubbed in his eyes and ears by a myriad of Patagonia, puff clad vigilantes :)
Not condoning the ole fut in Lone Pine in any way!
Jus' saying :)
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 25, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
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My brother and I found a perfect, clear quartz point. It was one of the most beautiful I have ever seen. We put it in a little leather pouch I carried with me and took it with us.
For two days we sat around the campfire and debated what to do with it. We looked at it and discussed each night under the stars. We finally decided to put it back. So we hiked out to the place we found it and I took out the pouch. When I opened it, it was empty. There was no whole in the pouch and it had not been opened since the night before. One of the strangest things I have ever experienced, but we figured it was a sign we had made the right choice.
Cool story Stahlbrah.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jul 25, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
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Come to think of it...
That makes Donini, Rohrer etc... Museum pieces and I am already an 'artifact'
Can I Ebay my self if I am in possession of an AARP membership card ?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 25, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
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not saying what he is doing is right knowing what we know now. It is best though to understand the time that he comes from. when we were kids we hunted arrow heads as well, we played outside with no shoes all summer killing critters with our sling shots,bb guns and then .22s as we got older. hunting, fishing, building lean toos, tree houses and dug outs. digging through old cellar holes out in the woods and keeping whatever treasures we found. now the kids play with their phones and are educated that most of the stuff we did as kids was evil.....
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 25, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
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Reward for finding things? You're crazy.
The vast majority of artifacts have little or no value in a financial sense. The story they can sometimes tell or questions they answer or people they inspire are the real value. All that is gone once you move it.
The discovery, even of precious sites, isn't doing anyone any favors except the discoverer. For the rest of us, the site is better off undiscovered. All we can do is educate people about our country's cultural heritage, and make the penalties for destroying that heritage stiff. Ultimately it is in the discoverer's hands. Will he/she loot, or not.
Messing with arc sites can get you a felony... Guess what you lose once you're a convicted felon.
AHHHHH, the jackbooted feds are coming for your GUNS!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jul 26, 2014 - 02:48am PT
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Jul 25, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
Reward for finding things? You're crazy.
The vast majority of artifacts have little or no value in a financial sense. The story they can sometimes tell or questions they answer or people they inspire are the real value. All that is gone once you move it.
The discovery, even of precious sites, isn't doing anyone any favors except the discoverer. For the rest of us, the site is better off undiscovered. All we can do is educate people about our country's cultural heritage, and make the penalties for destroying that heritage stiff. Ultimately it is in the discoverer's hands. Will he/she loot, or not.
Messing with arc sites can get you a felony... Guess what you lose once you're a convicted felon.
Then clearly the people who buy, sell, trade antiquities certainly don't know the value of these treasures. They clearly are involved in a market whether legal, or illegal black market in things that are pretty much worthless. Apparently they didn't get the memo. And the black market trade of antiquities world-wide perhaps in the billions of dollars clearly isn't happening because really the stuff is just worthless according to you.
Lol
My solution would be the better one. Reward people.
And according to your reasoning and logic the Mel Fischers of the world, recall he and his team found the Spanish galleon the Atocha and more, and the Barry Cliffords of the world, recall he found the pirate treasure ship the Whydah, both of whom did an incredible amount of research, archeology preservation, and salvage -- shouldn't get a bloody dime!
Well good thing you don't determine that. They both pulled in an incredible amount of wealth and they earned it. And the incredible stories have been shared publicly in many forms of media, and the artifacts are shown in museums for all people to see and enjoy.
There are now several commercial salvaging companies that are using the latest technologies in submergible robotics that are discovering, doing the marine archeology, and salvaging treasures and antiques that are worth billions of dollars. I suppose they should just stop doing so. The artifacts are worthless, no one wants them, the history and archeology is only important to a few. They shouldn't reap any rewards either for all their efforts.
Well good thing they don't listen to your reasoning. They trade on the NASDAQ and are discovering marine treasures that are worth billions. They are doing all the hard work while some stand around and scoff, or perhaps its jealousy? They deserve all the rewards that they work hard for.
The same can be done at a smaller scale for smaller less valuable antiquities so that the treasures are preserved and people receive some form of equitable reward for doing so.
Plain sense, logic and reasoning says this is the right thing to do for all involved. Everyone wins. And the archeology and artifacts are preserved.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 26, 2014 - 09:11am PT
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Even I know that once you're arguing with klimmer you're f*#ked, and I barely post here.
That being said, you set up a bullshit argument one you made the assumption that some obsidian flakes in the Owen's valley are comparable to a Spanish galleon on the ocean floor, there are many layers of bullshit stacked on this argument. Blah.
Show me the high dollar market for some pot sherds, obsidian chips, corn cobs, pieces of basket, or some other commonly found artifact.
Don't loot arc sites, if you do, I hope 53 feds show up at your door with an arrest warrant.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 26, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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Great video Tom!
I know of a great site below Duck Lake with tons obsidian. Fish Creek/Duck Pass was a main trade route.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 26, 2014 - 09:30am PT
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The top of taboose pass is black with the stuff- must be from the Fish Springs quarry which is right below.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 26, 2014 - 09:53am PT
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Context Dirtbag. Not the same thing at all. That isn't a discovery. That is destruction and defacement of a known NNA site. That is a crime.
How do you know that the petroglyphs were not a discovery to the thief???
what makes you think that the arrowheads and other artifacts were not already known? After all, they prohibited him from a specific area. Why? Why not another area?
Because they knew the stuff was there.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 26, 2014 - 11:02am PT
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Reilly...I suspected you were a digger as evidenced by the discoveries you've shared on this site...rj
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Jul 26, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
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Some many years ago I was involved in a design project for the Death Valley Interpretive Association, for a site at Cow Ck – across the street from the NPS Maintenance yard and shops, and downhill from employee housing.
Anyway, one fine day I'm onsite, meeting with the NPS, and somehow the meeting meandered over into an older, sun bleached, barnwood shop building. Climate controlled natural history/archeological archive, as it turns out.
That day, some highly placed DC Brass were present, and as the rangers began to showcase some of the well cataloged archive, ironically enquired: “Found more treasures, have we?”
This stuff will never be on public display, as near as I could sense. I was made to feel as a bit of an interloper in viewing it for my own kicks.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 26, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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klk..... THX for the info about the Bancroft....
But isn't that place the resting home of many famous Sierra summit registers?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 26, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
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klk..... THX for the info about the Bancroft....
But isn't that place the resting home of many famous Sierra summit registers?
yeah. removed from the summits by their owners, the sierra club, then put in the larger sierra club archive once the club decided to shed all of its historical records and library.
the b didn't collect the register nor did the b instigate the removal. sierra club deal entirely-- this topic comes back up over and over-- i've done lengthier explanations on other threads you can dig up if yr interested.
both archoe and museum practice have changed radically in the last several ddecades. franky is correct, in n america, most archeo excavations happen only with tribal reps involved, most of them involve documentation and reburial; most are actually left in situ. obvious exceptions for salvage archeo where a new highway or development is going to destroy the site.
i mentioned the getty because the getty had several recent bouts of bad pub resulting from some dubious collection practices that ended up in court.
folks are still adjudicating all the looting in ww2-- i actually recommend the book, the rape of euorpa, for a good read on that history. part of it got made into a movie not long ago
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 26, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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All this for some arrowheads?
I wonder how many natives actually visit these sites?
I wonder how many feds have native blood?
If it where not for this one guy would those sites have gone undisturbed or forgotten?
Seems like the classic cart before the horse mentality.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 26, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
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I'm not sure what some of you are complaining about here. This guy didn't just randomly find a couple arrowheads. The feds, quite frankly aren't going to give a rip about that.
He went looking for, and collected a lot of stuff, not just a few arrowheads. And he shows no remorse.
Just because many museums and archeologists did things in the past that we would now consider ill-advised or illegal, is not any reason to allow individuals to keep doing it.
And I have a framed set of 9 arrowheads sitting right above the computer I'm typing on. They came from my grandmother's antique store. She had no idea where or when they were collected. If I thought they'd actually benefit science somehow with no provenance, I'd be only too happy to donate them to a museum.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 26, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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I wonder how many natives actually visit these sites?
there are mono and timbisha/shoshone folks all over the east side.
some of the materials in historic sites literally belong to their grandparents and great-grandparents. these aren't all kennewick scenarios.
fwiw, the eastside and the foothills of gold rush country had some of the very ugliest white-on-indian violence of the 19th century. the history is unspeakably nasty. heizer, destruction of the california indians, is a collection of some of the relevant primary documents and usually easy to find in cheap used copies.
you can go to the wiki pages for nagra and arpa for a bare-bones summary of the law.
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 26, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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some of the materials in historic sites literally belong to their grandparents and great-grandparents.
Sure. No disputing the ownership. lol
Let me propose this to you:
My great grandpa owned a house. He put thousands of dollars of collectible items in it. He left no paper trail of where that house is. He claimed no deed from man or god. Some one not related to him found it.
I can have that someone arrested now.
Solid line of reasoning.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 26, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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Sure. No disputing the ownership. lol Let me propose this to you: My great grandpa owned a house. He put thousands of dollars of collectible items in it. He left no paper trail of where that house is. He claimed no deed from man or god. Some one not related to him found it. I can have that someone arrested now. Solid line of reasoning.
let me propose this to you: you have no idea what yr talking about, aside from suggesting that folks in oral cultures have no right to territory or possessions.
that's a remarkable thing to put into print, in this century. props for having the guts to just come out and say it,
nagrpa and arpa don't work by virtue of "ownership"-- but you'd know that if, as i suggested, you had so much as bothered to read the n00b-suitable summary on wiki. the history of nagrpa and arpa, and the relevant case law here, is complicated, and i'm not going to spoon feed it to you.
my point about many of the sites/artifacts having belonged to relatives of native folks now living on the eastside, was a response to an earlier post (or posts) in which folks seemed to be assuming that these were just random cool things buried in the dirt by aliens or the lost civilization of atlantis.
so far as yr grandpa goes, i personally would be pretty pissed if random rednecks were systematically looting my grampa's old homestead. whether or not i'd have legal remedies available would depend.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jul 26, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
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Tom thanks for posting the video. Great stuff.
Copyright 2002
The Obsidian Trail Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ1l0A_c4ns
The Obsidian Trail Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjw6PK-1cu4
The Obsidian Trail Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpCjIhdgRvE
I recall the dig just north of Bishop along south-side of 395 and the video certainly has scenes from that too. Cool.
Jul 26, 2014 - 09:11am PT
Even I know that once you're arguing with klimmer you're f*#ked, and I barely post here.
That being said, you set up a bullshit argument one you made the assumption that some obsidian flakes in the Owen's valley are comparable to a Spanish galleon on the ocean floor, there are many layers of bullshit stacked on this argument. Blah.
Show me the high dollar market for some pot sherds, obsidian chips, corn cobs, pieces of basket, or some other commonly found artifact.
Don't loot arc sites, if you do, I hope 53 feds show up at your door with an arrest warrant.
Franky,
1) Debate is good.
2) This story has further very important implications that I'm trying to bring out. It isn't just about the OP story. That story is a catalyst for probing deeper, and asking more serious questions that are relevant.
3) I think rather than treat citizens as antagonists, and the Feds ("The Man") dead-set against the people, aren't we supposed to be a nation " ... of the people, for the people, and by the people?" as Lincoln so eloquently said in a famous speech? Rather than rule with a hammer, why not rule with honey? You'd get more cooperation if you worked with people/citizens rather than against them. A fair reward system would save an incredible amount of discoveries from being lost. Everyone wins.
4) The governments are too heavy handed against their citizens, case in point -- 53 Feds against one old man. C'mon that's draconian. That's a a massive overreach by Big Brother, as are drones, spying on the citizens by the NSA, and we could go on and on ...
5) My examples were chosen to make a point. What is true for the big treasure finds should be true and scaled to the smaller treasure finds. Its about being fair and it can be scaled to fit the treasure or archeological finds that are found.
5) I never said anything in regards to encouraging looting. Never. That's wrong. However, discoveries are discoveries. It takes discoverers to make discoveries, without which science doesn't progress. Protect your interests if you are the discoverer. Reward people appropriately and fairly. Simple. The Golden Rule.
6) Obviously you are into heavy handed government. To each their own. I'm not. Maybe you'd like for people who have ever picked up an arrowhead to receive the death penalty too?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jul 26, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
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"so far as yr grandpa goes, i personally would be pretty pissed if random rednecks were systematically looting my grampa's old homestead. whether or not i'd have legal remedies available would depend. "
Funny. I've been to my great grandmothers homestead.
The 150 year old trash pile out back of the remains of the house (just the foundation was left) was still there.
The rednecks can have it. Its still just trash. Even if its 150 years old.
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 26, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
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klk
you dumb sh#t
LET'S DANCE.
Upon your idea of dancing.
You are a putz.
You can't help it
You have know clue
Speak Up?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 26, 2014 - 08:26pm PT
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klk
you dumb sh#t
LET'S DANCE.
Upon your idea of dancing.
You are a putz.
heh
cheers dude
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 26, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
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klk
Cheers it is.
I'll show you these "sites"
That grandpa forgot about. If you'll concede to pull your panties back up over your heals.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 20, 2015 - 10:38am PT
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At least the Lone Pine guy treated the artifacts with some sort of respect.
Unlike the U.S. Government, who deemed it necessary to destroy thousands of artifacts, thought to be 10,000 years old, in order to build a solar plant that'll probably be obsolete in a decade.
"The tribes lost a battle with the Bureau of Land Management to get the developer of the 1,950-acre Genesis plant to bypass a 125-acre area where most of the nearly 3,000 artifacts from the solar-plant site were found."
"The artifacts include 364 metates and metate fragments; 277 manos, the handheld grinding tool used with metates; 69 hammer stones; and 63 flake tools, including projectile points and scrapers; 122 stone cores and 786 flakes from tool making."
"Many of the artifacts, some of which might date 10,000 years, appeared to have been broken in an instant by the machinery used to dig them up."
http://www.pe.com/articles/artifacts-765201-site-tribes.html
When I tell you the government is in the business of picking winners and losers - the winners being the big money interests - this is a perfect example. NextEra Energy Resources being the chosen winner here.
The article scratched the surface, by noting the relationship between NextEra Energy Resources and Sec of Interior ( The White House ). I'll bet if they took the next step, they'd find the political contributions explaining the whole thing.
The guy in Lone Pine, however, he probably thought he didn't need to buy anybody off.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Apr 20, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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How much did the 53 bureaucrats get paid for this expedition?
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| Messages 1 - 87 of total 87 in this topic |
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