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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 14, 2014 - 09:49am PT
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There have been three dogs bit by rattlers in our local area in the last couple of months...two of them died. It has the locals pretty freaked out, with all kinds of irrational discussions about how to 'prevent' this from happening in the future.
I'm pretty dialed-in with the management of pit viper bites in humans, but dogs are somewhat different, primarily because of the size difference. There is an 'immunization' that some dog owners give to their pups...not truly an immunization per se, but it can help buy time in a dog that has an extremely averse reaction until they can get to antivenin.
I've been less keen on that idea, and more interested in snake aversion training, such as this program:
http://socalrattlesnakeavoidancetraining.com/TrainingProcess.php
Some people criticize the psychologic conditioning method used in the process...I kinda understand that, though the pain (and death) of snakebite is a far worse concern.
What kind of experience do you have with your pup & snakebites? What's your experience with preventative steps?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 14, 2014 - 09:59am PT
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The aversion training must be recurrent, as with any training. And also as with any
training it is cheap compared to the alternatives.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 14, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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The SGV Tribune had announcements for free snake aversion classes last month.
your local vet or humane society may know if anyone is running them in your area.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Jul 14, 2014 - 10:04am PT
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My dog has had the shot for the last two years and she had her first avoidance training on Saturday. Great training experience. Hope it works long term in day to day practice. I plan to repeat the avoidance training next year.
Erik
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 14, 2014 - 10:11am PT
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Thanks for posting this. I am gonna look more into it. My dog has pretty much just been allowed on hikes nov-apr out here in San Diego.
I have heard that the vaccine for dogs has mixed reviews. Like mentioned above, the weight of your animal has a lot to do with it's ability to survive a rattlesnake bite and the shot really just buys you more time.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jul 14, 2014 - 10:23am PT
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Hi! - we've done the aversion training twice. First time we organized a gathering of 4 dogs in our backyard. The snake dude brought his pets to our house.
The second time (about 1 year later) we organized a training session again but wanted a different environment. So we all met at Hart Park (city of Orange) and did it in the dry creek which was a good simulation of natural environment.
Nidoba has only come across one rattle snake since and with all my yelling at her to come to me (and away from the snake), I can't be 100% sure the training worked. However, she did listen and came to me instead of the usual ignore and going after something that was moving.
We plan to have the training session again soon. Reinforcement is key.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2014 - 11:19am PT
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Great pics, Roots.
What have you all paid for this training?
Did the trainers use a shock collar?
Edit:
TGT, I found this recent event offered through San Dimas Parks & Rec...it was last Saturday, and cost $95. They said they do it yearly, and the event was well-attended.
http://www.sgvtribune.com/general-news/20140629/around-the-valley-june-30
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Jul 14, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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A small dog got nailed in the nose by a rattlesnake at Penitente, ten yards from my dog, two years ago. Never found out what became of the other dog - it was quite a piece to the nearest vet.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Jul 14, 2014 - 11:25am PT
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Agree. Great pictures Roots! That looks a lot like Erick who I met Saturday at the training above Sacramento.
"What have you all paid for this training?" $80
"Did the trainers use a shock collar?" Yes
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2014 - 11:55am PT
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An interesting video from the program mentioned above:
http://www.vcstar.com/news/training-helps-canines-curb-curiosity-about
Watch the pup about 22 seconds into the video...the zap he received got him dancing right on top of that rattler. Got him to back off, for sure, but if the snake hadn't tagged him the first time, he would have had another chance...
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 14, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
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Apogee -
After my Aussie/Chow mix was bitten in the face, and 5000 bucks later we went with the snake avoidance training.
Simple enough setup - 3 stations with taped mouth rattlers. Dog wears a shock collar during the session.
First station was designed so the dog will key on smell and movement. In other words, they piss the snake off so it gets all stinky and skunky. Interesting to note that the tail was taped so no rattling sound. Release the hounds and of course she blasts straight at the snake only to get popped with the shock collar. This was repeated a few more times.
Second station was pretty much the same only this time the snake could shake its rattles - so now we have sight, smell and sound. Dog jets for the snake - trainer pops the dog. Unlike the first station where it took three times to get the mutt to go WTF, she gave up the chase after the single pop.
Third station was a full blown I will bite your ass snake, only now instead of letting the dog run free at the snake - the Trainer took her about 30 yards upwind with me about the same distance downwind of the snake. In other words, the snake is between me and the dog. I was to call her hard to me which I did. Funny as hell to see her come blasting full speed in my direction only to slam on the brakes and go REAL WIDE around the snake...like 50 feet wide!
We ran her through a refresher the next season. In between sessions we would "test" her aversion using both a fresh killed rattler and some old skins I have around the place...she didn't much care for any of them. Twice in the mountains she was with me when a snake was encountered - she would signal very strongly of "bad thing" in the area - stayed curious while we dealt with the snakes - but also kept her distance even after they were caught or killed.
One thing they mentioned is that since snakes have distinctive smell signatures - the training would only avert your dog from that species of rattler - Western Diamonds in our case.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jul 14, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
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One thing they mentioned is that since snakes have distinctive smell signatures - the training would only avert your dog from that species of rattler - Western Diamonds in our case.
Fortunately we don't have rattlers right where I live, only harmless small snakes, but none of our dogs has wanted anything to do with those (or with toads or frogs). They don't run away but won't approach them either, I wondered if this was because of smell or what.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 14, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
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It's worth doing. All my dogs get regular snake training.
I see rattlers here in the yard pretty damn often. At least a couple times a year.
This one showed up one week ago tonight:
My Doberman alerted me to it by barking. Good thing too, because it was right between my house and my garage, and I don't wear shoes on warm nights. I doubt I would have seen it otherwise.
The snakes they use for training have their jaws taped shut, and at least one should have its rattles taped silent - the idea on that one being to get the dog to identify it by sight. They should have a rattler in a bag, too, so the dog can't see it or hear it, just smell it.
The dog will wear a shock collar, and be led to / past the various snakes, and will be zapped if the dog shows any interest in the snakes.
It takes not even ten minutes, and your dog will then know everything there is to know about rattlesnakes, which is to leave them the f*#k alone.
My Doberman, when she was still a pup, on her first session, ran directly to the first snake she saw, like she was going to eat it, and it "struck" her right in the face. Pretty impressive. At that moment, the trainer zapped her. She jumped straight up in the air, and hasn't wanted anything to do with snakes ever since. Her subsequent sessions have confirmed it.
My old Labrador didn't want to be trained. The trainer walked her right up to a rattlesnake who was totally pissed. The snake was coiled at her feet, and rattling very loud, but she wouldn't even look at it. That's all we were waiting for, for her to look at the snake so she could get zapped.
We had to come back later, for a re-try. I apologized to the trainer for wasting his time by bringing him such a stupid dog. He told me she wasn't stupid. Just the opposite. She's too clever to learn. I could have used that excuse in high school.
Like Ricky D says, the "test" is the best part. It's always cool to see the wide arc the dogs make around the snake.
I'm happy if the dogs leave the snakes they find in the yard alone. But my Doberman thinks she's Lassie. If she spots one, she'll get between me and the snake and try to push me away.
I used to go to a guy out by the Corona Airport named Callaghan, but he died a few years ago ( heart attack, not a snake bite ).
I use these guys now:
http://socalrattlesnakeavoidancetraining.com/
( same as in the OP, and maybe the same outfit Roots used )
They come out to the house, if you have enough dogs.
The snake in the photo ended up getting shot. He put himself in a bad place. He had four directions in which he could have crawled away when I spooked him, but three of those were bad news; the house, the garage, and the goat corral. I was hoping he'd crawl back to the avocados where I suspect he came from, but he crawled straight to my back door instead.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
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That's great experience, Chaz.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 14, 2014 - 11:40pm PT
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taped mouth rattler
= Duct tape + lawyer
So peaceful
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 08:14am PT
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Each dog reacted differently to the shock collar; mine yelped or cried from the surprise of it, the other American Indian Dog that was there learned that white dogs can jump...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 15, 2014 - 11:08am PT
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The zap doesn't hurt the dogs. The trainers will let you feel it if you want. It's the combination of something they've never seen before and something they've never felt before hitting them when they're in a hyper-curious state.
Sometimes it works too good. Right now, the cicada buzz-bugs are at full-volume, and my Shepherd-Doberman mix is beside herself when they crank up. She can't decide if she needs to hide behind me, right under my feet, or kick it in one of her hiding places.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 15, 2014 - 11:48am PT
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Interesting discussion.
My dog is quite a bit like Chaz' old lab.
I walk my dog in the fields and woods at least 3X day and see a snake about 1X year.
But Oliver sometimes gets away after a deer and is gone for hours. (Yesterday I got a call 1 1/2 hours later from over a mile away).
After a dozen years he's never been bitten or struck by a snake as far as I can tell.
I've been with him when we came across a big king snake and another time a gopher snake and he was totally disinterested both times.
I suppose it comes naturally to some dogs.
About a month ago my neighbor (who is deathly afraid of all snakes) dog cornered a rattler at the front of his house. The dog was smart enough to not get close. Neighbor called his dog into the house and whacked the snake on the head with a shovel but then was too nervous to finish the job. I had to go up and do it. Chopping it's smashed but still active head off with a shovel was harder than I expected.
Like Chaz, I'd rather give the rattler an out that's safe for all concerned. They keep the rodents in check. That seems to be Oliver's philosophy too.
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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Jul 15, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
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I live in snake country and probably see a dozen or so a year. My dog is horrified of snakes when they are moving and cowers at the sound of a rattle, but is oblivious when they are still. I get him the vaccine yearly. My neighbors dog ( appx. 30 lb McNabb) gets the vaccine yearly and was bitten by a baby rattler this spring. He saw the incident and chose not to get antivenom for the dog due to it's advanced age (12 years) and the high cost. The dog had two seizures, laid under his deck for two days only drinking water and seems fine now. The bite was on his face.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 15, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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I hate like hell to kill rattlesnakes. I have a job for them.
Too many ground squirrels around here. Rattlesnakes are one reason there aren't many more.
"Ground squirrels make up close to 70 percent of the rattlesnakes' diet, particularly squirrel pups with small body sizes, unable to neutralize a full dose of venom."
http://dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_detail.lasso?id=7547
95% of my yard is a perfect place for them. But the one last week couldn't have found a higher traffic area for at least a hundred yards in any direction. I wonder how many times I walked past it - barefooted - before the dog spotted it.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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Ain't that the truth.
There is definitely a level of panic that the TC is frothing up around the recent incidents (that's the TC for ya, though).
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 15, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
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Good training is not a substitute for keeping your dog close and in-control while frollicking around the great outdoors YUP
I happily let Oliver run at the dog park and the beach.
I am reminded that my long since deceased friend and neighbor had a German Shepherd that had been bitten in the face by a rattler. Several years before I met the perfectly healthy dog who had recovered on his own.
If you live in the Bay Area and want a rattler removed humanely:
http://www.gotsnakes.org
By the time I called them, my neighbor had already whacked the rattler beyond hope. Had to call them back and cancel.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
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It was Snake Aversion Training Day....Max's reaction was...well...mixed, to my eye.
The process was pretty much the same as others had described: a very mild shock collar, and several varying exposures: live, muzzled (mouth taped) baby rattlesnake, followed by snake skin, followed by a rattling snake in a 'rock', and then a large, live angry (mouth taped) rattlesnake. $70 for the training...there were about 60 dogs signed up for the day.
He had very little interest in the baby snake, or just plain didn't notice it. (Gotta say, though- the snake was somewhat lethargic.) Max would stand within inches of the dang thing, and without any real awareness or reaction! After several walk arounds, he eventually went in to investigate, and ZAP! Followed by a yelp & a jump.
The other stations went quicker, and he got a couple of zaps there, too. At the final station, the large adult, he looked at it and pretty much took a wide berth towards us. That kind of reaction is one of the more desirable actions you'd like to see.
It was a little anti-climactic, but that's just fine with me if it has the intended effects. I will probably take him back for at least another round in a year or so.
Getting fitted with the collar
Max, seemingly oblivious to the baby rattlesnake (circled)
Max, getting the point
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Jul 20, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
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.
Wow...i have never heard of this training before, very worthwhile post...
Thanks everybody.. for your stories and great training pictures...
Delhi Dog is visiting us for a couple of days..I will try to get him to post his dog story.
God, I hate snakes....
edit, Ricky D..J.... Lol....
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 20, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
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Delhi Dog is visiting us for a couple of days ...
Will you need to borrow a shock collar?
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Jul 20, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
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We trained our dog about 13 years ago with Callaghan (sorry to hear he died; as far as I knew he was the first guy to do this training). She did the big arc around the snake when called as well. After the one training she avoided snakes really well and I knew she would not go up to a rattler, if she knew it was there , but I worried if she was running and came upon one quickly. We never trained her again.
About 4-5 years ago she was about 25 yards ahead of me running out front and I saw her jump sideways and a big ass snake strike all in a flash. I thought she got tagged for sure, checked her out and she was good but I was really shaken up so I looked long and hard at the "vaccine". In the end, it looked like jive to me. It didn't make sense.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 21, 2014 - 08:22am PT
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Although the aversion training is a good idea, it should be secondary to having your dog "immunized" with the rattlesnake vaccine.
I had a serious discussion with my vet on the topic, and his comment was:
Any dog weighing under 35 pounds may be considered a goner from rattlesnake bite UNLESS having had the rattlesnake vaccine. Any snakebite is a serious veterinary emergency, but the vaccine ensures survival of the dog. The usual protocol is one shot followed up at 4 weeks with a booster; then annual booster shots, or more frequently in high snake population areas, where boosters should be given every 6 to 8 weeks.
My dog weighs in at 104 pounds, but I get her the shots per the vet's schedule.
P.S. Added in edit: the shots are relatively cheap; it costs me $18 per shot at my vet's.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 21, 2014 - 08:40am PT
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But, Broke, yer knott afraid that her pups might get Autism? ;-)
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 08:48am PT
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A dog was bitten on the face in my local area about 3 weeks ago- it was about 20 lbs, and survived...no vaccine.
There have been two other snakebite dog fatalities in this area in the last few months...the first was an Australian shepard mix of about 55 lbs.
There are many variables around survival or tissue damage: severity of envenomation, size of the dog, where the bite occurs, and to a degree, the type of snake.
Personally, I remain skeptical about the 'vaccine' (not a great word for it, since it's not truly a vaccine)...it has to be done yearly, some dogs have adverse reactions to it, and it is definitely not consistent in its benefits.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 21, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
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Reilly-
Nope. She's been spayed and no pups are in the offing.
Re: Effectiveness of the "vaccine:" The effectiveness varys with the exact species of rattlesnake involved. It was developed using Diamondback Rattlesnake venom as the "target." Timber Rattlesnakes, Sidewinders, and Prairie Rattlesnakes all have slightly different venom composition profiles. There are several very well defined components in crotalid toxins, principally Phospholipase C, phosphodiesterase, and L-amino acid oxidase. Of these components, phospholipase C is perhaps the worst actor in the group. This enzyme acts on the components of the red blood cells (erythrocytes) by cleaving one of the fatty acids in phosphatidyl ethanolamine, phosphatidyl choline, or phosphatidyl serine to form the corresponding Lysophosphatides which are active cell disruptive detergents. It is a simple task to inactivate the enzyme by heating to denature it. Either that or isolation of the key enzymes followed by treatment with acetic anhydride to block the serine active sites. The denatured venom or chemically modified enzymes are the basis of the "vaccine," and the immune system begins producing antibodies to the proteins. Ergo: antibodies to the evil enzymes is accomplished. A down side to this is the amount of venom injected could overwhelm the antibody titer and still have a massive deleterious effect on the target (dog).
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 21, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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Broke, not to get sidetracked but the accepted first aid for a stingray sting
is to pee on the wound in lieu of being able to apply heat in a more conventional
manner. I'm here to testify that it works. But I'm thinking it wouldn't
work so well with a rattler bite, right? Of course, applying heat to a
rattler bite also would not be indicated because it would probably hasten
the spread of the toxins.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 21, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
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After my Aussie got fanged in the face - we went the route of Aversion Training BUT also looked into the "Vaccine".
Problem was there was limited studies as to it's effectiveness but seemed to be plenty of first hand accounts of negative reactions - so we held off at the time.
One thing to consider if your dog has been bitten in the past and was treated with anti-venin is they may have a fatal allergic reaction to future treatments should they get bitten again. Apparently the anti-venin for canines is cultured using horse serum and according to my Vet at the time. about 65% of dogs will become allergic to the serum and cannot be treated again.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 21, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
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Duuuuuuude! Bottle of vinager does the trick just the same. No need to have your bud pee on ya...and they have to be ready to go too. You know, it's not like it's on call. At least for me.
Snake adversion training. I do it for my pointer. She gets the vaccine too. Doc said that he's seen dogs get hit on the tongue and survive after the vaccine. Ao far we been lucky, but a friend of ours had their field lab get bit and it was $3700 later before they got their dog back. Now it does appear some of that was the emergency vet's fault; poor blood chemistry monitoring. I would get the number of an emergency vet center that knows how to handle snake bites. In San Diego that's La Mesa emergency pet center off JacksonDr.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 21, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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The "vaccine" has also been developed for horses, and they are generally a F*%k of a lot more expensive to treat than dogs. My question evolved: why not a snakebite vaccine for humans?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 21, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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A final comment, re: dogs. It really shouldn't be an either-or choice, but both vaccine and aversion training are in order.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
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I'm still not convinced about the 'vaccine'. Gonna stick with the preventative strategy for right now, with aversion training and close supervision/leash whenever realistically possible.
(The owner of the Aussie mix who lost her pup regularly let her dog run loose in a relatively 'wild' area. I encountered her at least once this way...I don't have the nerve to ask her if this was the case on that fateful day.)
In the event of an actual bite, I've identified the emergency vets that carry the antivenin. Unfortunately, they are all at least an hour away...that's not encouraging, esp. for a 30 lb pup like Max.
Spiny injuries (urchins, dorsal fin spines, stingrays) usually get pain relief from heat- it denaturizes the toxin. Apply as much heat as you can stand (immersion is ideal) for at least an hour, then aggressively clean and debride the wound- infection is very common.
Nematocyst stings (corals, anemones, jellyfish) usually get pain relief from a dilute acidic solution, such as vinegar- this is the theoretic origin of the human urine treatment approach. Rinse first with salt water to remove as many nematocysts as possible (not fresh- the osmotic difference will produce more injections.)
Don't pee on your patient. Though if you do, at least one of you will feel better.
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