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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 25, 2014 - 10:52am PT
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I was looking at CMac's review of the Petzl Bongo and his report of Caldwell's amazing drilling speed.
The Bongo is listed as 680 g which is fairly light for a peg hammer but a lighter hammer might actually be faster for drilling. I have a theory that although hitting harder probably goes farther per blow, a lighter hammer may hit more often, require fewer rest breaks and require less effort. I'm trying to devise a series of tests to try this out but there are some obvious problems in comparing different hammers. The best test would be overhead drilling but it is hard to arrange an overhead test fixture. Right now I'm collecting a pile of hammers and documenting their physical characteristics. I think the location of the center of gravity in relation to the striking surface will also be important - I am guessing that a lighter handle will be better balanced because the CG will be closer to the striking surface.
So far the hammers I have and their mass in grams (excluding slings) are:
920 Omega Pacific Wall Hammer
751 McDevitt
717 GI Surplus Yosemite hammer knockoff
716 Chouinard Yosemite Hammer w/ hole (1980's? a bit worn, some grinding)
703 Forrest (welded pick)
638 Forrest alpine (changeable pick)
620 Stubai (1950's?)
608 Stubai (1970's?, pick may have been cut)
583 Chouinard Alpine (1977?)
477 Salewa Rockhammer (yellow)
I have a Grivel Thor Hammer on the way.
The handle and its vibration characteristics are probably also important. Wood seems to be good for vibration while the Salewa Rockhammer uses a "polymide" handle which is claimed to reduce vibration. Sadly, I got rid of my Piezo accelerometers and charge amplifiers so can no longer measure vibration directly. Probably have to do something subjective.
Send me more hammers. Perhaps you'd trade a hammer for one of the drill holders I make.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Jun 25, 2014 - 11:12am PT
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Banquo,
if you could also make some comments on the grips(for example I find the Omega Pacific Wall Hammer grip to be hard to hold)... that would be great.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 25, 2014 - 11:41am PT
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No A5/D5 Banquo? I can weigh one and convey the weight to you. Are you listing the total weight? Of interest to the conversation is that John Middendorf claimed that he set speed records drilling 1/4" diameter X 1" holes on lead on El Cap for a Rawl Stud (split shank button head construction anchor) with his A5 hammer and Hurricane Hand Drill (also designed and sold by Deuce). 45(?) SECONDS. SECONDS. At least that's what my bad memory suggests he said.
Maybe what is needed is 1/4 hangers and bolts for the hand drilling?
Good stuff: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1298944&tn=0&mr=0
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 25, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
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Wood seems to be good for vibration
Agreed.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 25, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
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I use sport tape, the same for taping up for cracks, to grip and choke up on the handle. We have these titanium carpenters hammers that are a dream to swing. Light and efficient. I would buy a rock hammer engineered like this if one was available.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
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No A5/D5 Banquo?
Not yet. I will get one or borrow one if I can, otherwise when I get my method figured out, I'll ask you or someone to fill in the blanks for the A5/D5. I'll need several dimensions and at least two weights. The list above is the total weight without the sling.
There are several European hammers that we don't see here very often. The Salewa I have is an example, The Edelrid Hudson Hammer (670 g) is another. The European hammers seem to be lighter.
http://www.alpinsport-basis.de/Edelrid-Hudson-Hammer_1
I have a thread about 1/4" as opposed to 3/8" drills:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2190293/3-8-SDS-drills-faster-than-1-4-SDS
I'd like to know the details about the 45 second drill hole. I've heard this story before but have my doubts. If you hit twice a second that's 90 blows. For a 1.25" deep hole,that's 0.014 inches per blow which seems hard to believe. There could be unknown factors involved.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 25, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
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Shades of John Bachar from 2007 ! Here's the thread linked below with the speed record you were looking for Banquo. 47 seconds to drill and install a bolt on lead. Woot! Anyway, it appears that I'd caused the original thread to turn to piss by posting the Hurricane Hand Drill drilling manual Middendorf use to send out with his A5 drills, so I started this new one (link below). Middendorf posts about 1/2 way down as Duece4 and here's the quote regarding speed drilling: "But hey, what do I know, I only drilled a 1000 or so bolts in my time. Though my record of drilling an 1-1/4" long 1/4 bolt in granite in 47 seconds (drilling hole and placing bolt) is probably still a record, especially now that no one drills 1/4" anymore."
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=380464&tn=0&mr=0
Lots of interesting info by JM, Greg Barnes and other folks posts as well. As a reference to why that thread got started, back then people use to have dial up internet, which was slower than sh#t, much like a hand crank ice cream machine. As threads got longer and pictures got added, clicking on a thread might cause it to take 5 min to load for some poor souls. Maybe Piton Ron still has it, but dial up internet is uncommon these days.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Jun 25, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
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I once learned a way to tie a small simple loop of 1/2" webbing into the handle of my hammer. And by taping it securely into where you would like to hold the hammer. The loop needs to be just snug enough so that you will need to work your hand through this loop before making your final grip on the handle. I know that it doesn't sound like much but this will enable you to not have to grip the hammer with much effort at all. If you try it, you'll find that you can swing all day and with much less effort with the aid of this simple little tie in loop. This will make any hammer work better, but my favorite is the Chouinard Yosemite with the hickory handle.
To learn the folk song "John Henry" as a cadence for your drilling I think you will find will help facilitate making holes in those rocks!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 25, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
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Drilling technique definitely enters into the speed equation too beyond hammer weight. You have to keep the drill tip rotating for every blow just like a rotohammer.
I prefer the A5 hammer for drilling personally but then I swung a Vaughn 32oz for decades so weight isn't much of an issue.
I think that developing an active drill holder based on an impact driver model would yield even better efficiency since you like tinkering with this technology.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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I think swinging a hammer efficiently without hurting yourself requires technique, a technique that most people never learn. I've worked around enough carpenters to know there is a right way and a wrong way. It would be interesting to watch or video a skilled hammerer and an average person for comparison.
As I have mentioned in other threads, I have searched for published research about hammer ergonomics but the only thing I have found was the series of studies that concluded a curved hatchet type handle was more comfortable. I don't like the study because they used college professors and students to swing the hammer.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 25, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Always dig your topics Banquo!
I'm in the market for a hammer.
Super used to the BD but am open to others, and that Petzl is $70 right now.
I can't comment on weight and efficiency as I've pretty much only used the BD(style) but technique and a nice sharp bit sure help!
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209er
Social climber
Oakdale
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Jun 25, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
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Just my non-scientific experience and POV: After pinging away for hours one hot day over 30 years ago with a Salewa piton hammer with little to show despite having a bag full of sharpened bits, I figured there must be a better way. The next week at work I searched through industrial catalogues (no internet then, you offspring) and found this Estwing Drilling Hammer. I bought one, unhefted and untested, blindly driven by a firm conviction that something called a "drilling hammer" must have been designed to be part of a system to drill holes in rock. It was the last hammer I ever used to drill holes in rock, because it made bolt holes super fast. Case closed. For you data heads, this hammer weighs in at 1,300 grams, way off the charts.
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climber bob
Social climber
maine
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Jun 26, 2014 - 06:02am PT
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im with you..i used to hand drill with a mini sledge...until I got a hilti...the late dick Richardson could drill mighty fast...
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 06:50am PT
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Yep, I've had and used one of those drilling hammers. It was called a single jack back in the day because it could be swung with one hand as opposed to a double jack which required two hands. My dad was a topographer for the USGS and I have used one to drill the hole for a benchmark. 3/4" star drill if I recall correctly. The required 3" hole was a chore and whoever was there had to take a turn. He had the same steel handled Eastwing.
With a 3/8" carbide tipped drill, the tip can shatter when hit this hard.
Several years ago I bought a single jack with a wood handle and ground down the head with an angle grinder. It worked. I gave it to a friend to whom I owed a favor. He found it is too heavy to carry around so I got him a real hammer.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jun 27, 2014 - 03:40am PT
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Back in the day, i was known as the fastest drill in the west :)
The 47 second 1/4" diameter 1.25" long buttonhead bolt record was at Chocise Stronghold in a rock (granite) near camp. Ideal conditions, drilling stright down, blowtube standing by. Officially timed with several witnesses.
Sandstone bolts took longer, as these were always 3/8"
On lead, the fastest sting of drilled holes was probably the "27 holes makes a pitch" on Route 66 on the Falls Wall. That pitch took just under 3 hours to complete (full 165' pitch). We hoped the black streak would be seam, but it turned out to be a completely blank section that required a ladder. It was slowed down a bit as my Rawl holder jammed and i was unable to change bits so i had to drill with an increasingly dull bit.
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Edge
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jun 27, 2014 - 06:46am PT
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Dingus, in my experience I find I taprap more at the start to get the hole started and then wail away increasingly harder once the drill can track in the hole.
I suspect the heavy swing will be more productive by hand, reasoning that you can drive a hardened nail into concrete with a .22 charge, but you could taprap all day on it with a banana and all that will get you is the base for a smoothie.
Drilling on lead requires creativity, adaptability, and the three metals: carbide bits, iron hammer, and stainless steel testicles.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jun 29, 2014 - 02:05am PT
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Hi DMT-
I think I wrote about the optimal technique in my bolt "treatise" I wrote for Climbing way back when (Climbing #99 or so?), and I think it might be available on bigwalls.net
But in a nutshell:
taptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptap is better. How you start the hole is critical, then holding a constant angle, but the number one thing is to hold the handle a bit loosely so you get a natural percussion of the drill which ejects the dust.
Holding not too loose to lose your angle, but not too tight which would prevent the natural percussion, is the key to fast drilling.
A grip on/grip off kind of thing, I reckon. Like the Karate kid in fast motion.
Flat chisel tip bits were my favourite.
cheers
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
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Drilling speed and hammer efficiency are different things. A very efficient car probably isn't very fast and a very fast car probably isn't very efficient. With a drilling hammer, I want some compromise between the two. I want it to be as fast as possible without running my arm out of gas before I am finished.
What is balance? Everybody seems to want a balanced hammer but there doesn't seem to be any definition of what balanced means for a hammer. My thought is that the center of gravity of the whole hammer should be aligned with the center of the striking surface. However, the CG is never at the striking surface but somewhere near the top of the handle. So, when the head strikes, there is some eccentricity between the striking force and the inertial force of the hammer mass. This force-times-distance makes the hammer want to rotate. This tendency to rotate or moment, must be resisted by the wrist.
I have taken a selection of the hammers on hand and quantified the eccentricity which to me is a measure of the hammer imbalance. There are other factors to consider such as hammer mass and handle length. A longer handle will reduce the force on the wrist if the hammer is gripped near the end of the handle. Rookie carpenters choke up on the handle but old pros don't perhaps for this reason. A lighter hammer will result in less moment so long as the speed is the same but people probably swing lighter hammers faster.
If you look at a worn hammer, you can see that the bottom of the striking face (nearest the handle) is usually more worn out because the person using the hammer will tend to hit as close to the CG as possible. I think my least balanced hammer is the OP and it can be easily seen that the bottom edge of the face is more banged up.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
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The numbers as CSV if anybody wants them.
,LOA,L,W,R,E,E/L,W*E,W*(E/L)
Omega Pacific Wall Hammer,13.25,11.75,31.8,24.8,2.586477987,0.220125786,82.25,7
G.I. Surplus Yosemite Hammer,11.5,10.875,25.2,22.4,1.208333333,0.111111111,30.45,2.8
Chouinard,11.625,10.8125,25.2,21.1,1.759176587,0.162698413,44.33125,4.1
McDevitt,13.5625,12.875,26.2,22.7,1.719942748,0.133587786,45.0625,3.5
Grivel Thor,13.1875,12.375,16,12.2,2.9390625,0.2375,47.025,3.8
Salewa Rockhammer,10.3125,9.5,16.8,15.6,0.678571429,0.071428571,11.4,1.2
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Greg Barnes
climber
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My sawed off Cassin hammer:
LOA 10.125"
L 9.0"
W 19.9 oz
Originally I made one for a lightweight backpacking drill kit, but I liked it so much I made a 2nd. Got the Cassin hammers at a Sierra trading post sale for 14.95 each.
Only problem is funking pins - doesn't work well at all. I grab a BD hammer for that.
My original ball and peen hammer was a monster, I should see if it's still lying around somewhere...
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2014 - 08:27am PT
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So, the numbers in the last four columns are different ways to measure how out of balance the hammer is. You can see that the Omega Pacific has the poorest balance by all measures except for the eccentricity of the Grivel. (I believe the balance of the Grivel could be greatly improved by removing the wire nut tool found in the handle. I have looked at this nut tool and can't imagine that it is very useful.) The odd looking little Salewa has the best balance - probably because the handle is very light.
The GI knockoff has better balance than the Chouinard original. These are the two hammers I have used the most and I have no hesitation saying that I prefer the GI hammer. The steel is a bit harder and doesn't mushroom as quickly, the handle seems to be better wood, the handle is epoxied into the head, the head is heavier and I like how it swings. The GI hammers come up on Ebay now and then - there is one listed now. Search for: climbing hammer
Being out of balance shouldn't affect the drilling efficiency of the hammer but I think it will increase fatigue and perhaps elbow/wrist problems.
In another thread, Couchmaster mentioned the Kong Eagle hammer which is said to have been designed by Bridwell. The Kong has a raised hump at the funk hole. This would raise the center of gravity and reduce the eccentricity. The Kong might be a well-balanced hammer but I don't have one to evaluate. If anybody does, it would be nice if you would reproduce my measurements.
Balance probably doesn't matter much for a piton (as opposed to a drilling) hammer since you don't spend as much time pounding. For a piton hammer you would want as much mass as you are willing to carry around.
For bolts, I think a lighter, well balanced hammer will be better and that is what I hope to find out as I test these hammers. I find it interesting that the best balanced and the almost lightest hammer is the only one that the manufacturer specifically claims is for bolting. From the Salewa website: "The ideal, well-balanced hammer for securing bolts."
Next is to devise a test to see how fast heavy and light hammers drill. A heavy hammer will result in slower hits and more fatigue so I am not certain it will be faster. It's hard to figure out how to do this test fairly.
I think it's funny I can write "raised hump at the funk hole" in a serious sentence.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2014 - 08:32am PT
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Greg -
Post a picture of your hammer and get the reaction force "R" so I can see how well it is balanced. Do you like this hammer for drilling or placing pitons?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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The camera on the phone distorts the picture, the very end of the hammer is perfectly lined up with the end of the tape measure and the LOA is 10.125".
R=15.8
E=1.854
E/L= 0.206
W*E= 36.9
W*(E/L)= 4.1
I didn't dig out the other sawed-off (my first one, more beat-up). I cut them off so they'd fit in an A5 bolt bag along with the drill, bits, bolts, wrenches, etc. Whole setup nice and light and small.
Hand drilling, not very good for pitons.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Ahh...my Thor hammer. Still some life left in 'er. Fast lighter hits over heavy few for me.
Have picked up a Petzl Bongo. Seems aw'ight.
Fun stuff...
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Anybody know this trick? After getting the holes first 3/4" established, not only hold the holder loosely, but retrace it in the hole about 1/4" and then strike it. It not only helps clear the hole of dust, but helps keep the bit from sticking, there is more of a rebound effect. You can often strike it quite hard, depending on the bit, and not have it stick. If you haven't tried this it's worth a try. I think a lot of this tap tap tap, or slam slam slam is dependent on how hard the rock is that you are drilling. I think I remember soft, coarse grained rock sticking much more adversely, and hard, fine grained rock not. I haven't drilled anything by hand in a long time so it's a little fuzzy, but I used to be a pretty fast hand driller.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
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The first hammer comparison drilling speed test results.
I chose the GI Surplus Yosemite Hammer and the Grivel Thor because they varied in weight, are about the same length and have not the worst nor the best balance.
I used the same Petzl Rocpec drill holder with both hammers and for each each hammer I had an identical, brand new Makita drill. I also had a 1.35 inch deep starter hole for each drill. I drilled with the Grivel first then with the heavier GI. I set a timer for 2.5 minutes and drilled as furiously as possible. I waited about an hour after the Grivel test before I pounded with the GI to let my arm rest. I didn't blow the dust out of the hole during the tests, I simply kept drilling. I don't have an overhead drilling setup so I drilled into a horizontal surface about level with the bottom of my ribs. The top of the drill holder was something like chest height.
For both hammers I found I could pound for about 20 seconds before I needed to shake my arm out for a couple seconds. I didn't measure it but my natural blow rate seemed about the same for the two hammers although I think I took shorter strokes with the GI. I turned the drill continuously as best I could while drilling.
In 2.5 minutes the Grivel went 0.354 inches (7 minutes per inch) while the GI hammer went 0.611 inches (4 minutes per inch). A 2.5 inch hole would take 17.5 minutes with the Grivel and 10 minutes with the GI at these rates.
There are some flaws in this method such as uncontrolled variables. Since I worked with the Grivel first, I may have had less endurance with the GI. My drilling rate may not have been sustainable for a full 2.5 inches.
As I said earlier, I really like the GI hammer. It seems balanced and feels good to swing. Nice solid whack.
The Grivel hammer dings like a bell and I can feel vibration in the aluminum handle. I don't think the vibration will hurt me (I plan to discuss vibration and injury later) but it is annoying. When hammering with the Grivel, the nut tool wire works its way out of the handle. My inclination is to throw the nut tool away which would improve the balance of the hammer.
I had really hoped the lighter hammer would be faster since I would rather carry it when climbing.
I may try another test and go a full 2.5 inches and see how long it takes. I'll have to think about which hammers to use. Maybe I'll compare the lightest and most balanced Salewa with the heaviest and least balanced Omega Pacific.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Cool look at the different rates Banquo.
The fastest I have ever drilled a 1/4 x 1.25" buttonhead was with a rawl holder, chisel tip bit, and a BD Yo hammer.
right around 3 min with a fresh bit.
Deucey is a BEAST.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
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Mucci-
I've always wondered about reported drill rates. When I hear about the legendary 45 second bolt hole I wonder who had a stop watch and who said ready, set, go. Most climbers keep their watch in their pocket and the belayer should be taking pictures or having a snack.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Banquo-
I was in my ladders with a wrist watch, Probably the easiest way to drill on the planet, except for those pesky Boschs,,
I heard jeff altenberg was drilling 2 min holes on Skull Queens ladder.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
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Mucci-
I guess it's that I never wear a watch since it gets banged up so easily. I would be very proud if you were using one of my drill holders when you did this.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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I did use your A taper holder and a shorty 1/4" carbide tip bit for rivets.
I commented on the speed after I drilled one placement, and my partners were impressed.
My partner Kev used your A taper on a Solo FA, both for 3/8ths and 1/4". Beside the fact he broke every bit he had (bullit stone) , He liked the drill.
It will be on our rack for the next route for sure.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
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Mucci-
What hammer did you use?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Both of us used the BD Yo hammer.
Of all of the hammers I have used in the field, that is the one that agrees with me in terms of drilling on lead.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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All this discussion about loosely holding the drill holder, pulling the bit 1/4"out of the hole, etc. so you simulate the action of a hammer drill is why I like the Petzl RockPec. With the RockPec, the bit floats in the holder and you get a lot of back and forth action in the hole when you are drilling.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
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Mucci-
I think the BD hammer is very good. I think the GI knockoff I used in the test is just slightly better. Perhaps you can find one or borrow mine someday to try out.
Earlier today I said one was available on Ebay but it seems to have disappeared. I guess the seller didn't get any bids and withdrew it. They do come up every couple months or so. I've had three of them over the years.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Yeah, I almost bid on that one.
Why do you like it better?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Banquo,
that GI hammer didn't disappear.
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ruppell
climber
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So
This isn't a power drill friendly convo?
I bet my "insert name here" hardware store bought drill out drills any and all hand drills mentioned here.
Why be That Guy?
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2014 - 08:07am PT
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Why do you like it better?
It weighs the same as the BD but seems to be better balanced. The steel seems to be tougher. The handle is wedged and epoxied in place. The wood seems is nicely oiled. The only down side is the biner hole is harder to get a biner into.
that GI hammer didn't disappear.
I see it has now showed up as a completed auction. Let us know what you think of it. I have two of them, one in use and one in reserve.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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Today I set out to test drilling speed with a little more duration. I started two holes about 1/10 inch deep and then drilled each to a depth of at least 2 inches. 2 inches is about the minimum depth for the 2.25 x 0.375 inch SS bolts I typically use in good granite.
I started with the McDevitt hammer before lunch and drilled the hole 2.006 inches deeper in 7m25s. I didn't clear the dust out of the hole. I did stop occasionally to shake out my arm. I held the hammer near the end of the handle and tried to make hard hits with a fairly long swing.
A couple hours after lunch I did the same with the Chouinard hammer. I increased the depth by 2.031 inches in 13m39s, nearly twice the time.
McDevitt (26.2 Oz) 3.70 minutes per inch
Chouinard (25.2 Oz) 6.72 minutes per inch
It's hard to be sure but I feel like I worked harder with the Chouinard. Both drill rates seemed to get slower as time went by - probably because I was wearing out and because I didn't clear the dust from the hole. My arm is getting tired and that of course must have some effect on the difference between the two but I think there is clearly a difference.
McDevitt is slightly heavier, has better balance and a longer handle.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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It's not just the hammer. It's the relative weight of the drill to the hammer which determines the best efficiency. Of course technique is a big factor too.
I have a friend who is a mechanical engineer. He weighed my hammer of preference, and took what I hoped would be a good drill, the chuck from a Milwaukee air hammer. He weighed them and measured the angle of the hammer strike (as Banquo showed above), figured an ideal weight for the object (drill) and we cut the chuck down to that weight. It works quite well. BTW it takes an A taper chisel bit. I do not like drilling with SDS bits. For one thing the chisel bits can be sharpened in the field with emery paper (I like back-country). ymmv.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
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Ksolem-
I have explored drills and drill holders in several other threads. Drilling efficiency has to do with drill diameter, drill length, the shape of the drill shank, The angle of the drill tip, the length, weight and shape of the drill holder, the sharpness of the bit and of course characteristics of the hammer. Also operator issues such as where and how the hammer is held, how hard you hit, how you turn the drill, etc. It turns out to be a pretty complex problem I think. It seems that everybody has an opinion about what works best but the foundation for the opinion is nearly always subjective. I am trying to do the best I can at quantifying things.
The drill and drill holder variables I looked into resulted in differences in drill rates on the order of 30%. With hammers I am getting differences in drilling speed on the order of 100%. In the above test, I drilled 81% faster with a hammer that is only 4% heavier. There must be something other than the weight of the hammer making the difference.
Anyway, I have explored other variables in other threads. In this thread the only variable I am exploring is the hammer.
Like you I believe that an A-Taper bit works better but they are nearly gone from the market so I have switched to SDS. I do make A-Taper holders and some who post here use and seem to like them.
I like carbide tips. They can be field sharpened with a small diamond impregnated file. They sharpen surprisingly fast. A pocket size set of files can usually be found on Amazon for around $10.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Banquo,
I don't think the McDevitt vs the Chouinard test is accurate unless you use two separate holes. As you drill deeper a few things happen that can skew the results.
First off, you have more dust buildup as you drill deeper as it is much harder to get it out of the hole as you pull the drill out.
Secondly, the drill bit moves less as you get deeper because of the dust buildup and the increased friction in the hole.
Lastly, I believe the impact force to the rock surface is less because as you drill deeper you get more friction in the hole.
I would be very interested in the seeing the numbers for the Chouinard hammer in a new hole.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
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bhilden-
It was two separate holes. In the picture a few posts above you can see two white spots below the McD hammer, those are the start of the two drill holes before I did the test. Both holes started out 0.090" deep so that I wasn't measuring the time it takes to get a hole started. So, starting with two holes about 0.090 inches deep, I drilled each to just over 2 inches deep. I used the two bits you can see so that dulling of bits wasn't a problem.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Banquo,
"A couple hours after lunch I did the same with the Chouinard hammer. I increased the depth by 2.031 inches in 13m39s, nearly twice the time."
I read this as you 'increased' the depth of the same hole by 2.031 inches. Thanks for the clarification.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Dan,
I always read your drilling posts and they are always an interesting read. I am always looking for new ideas for replacing bolts. I have been using the A-5 that Chris gave me at Facelift last season. The size,weight seem about right for me. The fastest I ever drilled a 2 bolt anchor was 20 min.+- and that was near the end of the season a couple years ago. Early season it seams to take me forever to drill a 2-1/4" hole. I have come to find that it is really about body positioning. Comfortable stance, drill just over the right shoulder, and nothing in the way of a clear hammer blow. Wow, how often does that happen? Then there is the rock. I have been over on the Chaple wall lately and that rock seems really hard. But then again it is early season. If I am comfortable and it is late season I have to be careful not to hit too hard or I can destroy a bit on the first hole. I have tried every type of drill holder I can find, and every type of hammer and by late season it is all about the same. I have never really been very fast. I am running around 1400 swings per hole right now and that will drop to around 1200 in a couple months. I am amazed at how fast some of you guys can drill a hole. A guy posted once that he could drill a hole in 450 swings, now that is bad-ass!
Oh, yea, the tunes!!
If the right song comes up on that MP3 player blasting in my ears, I can really get into it and blow out a bit half way thru a hole:-)
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
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Hey Roger,
I'm always happy when you chime in. You have swung more hammer than anybody on this forum and I am sure you could show us a few things.
I haven't tried an A5 or D5 hammer. They have sold on Ebay recently but I can't justify $160 and up for a hammer. perhaps I'll get my hands on one someday.
So tell us how you swing a hammer. A carpenter I once worked with told me to throw the head at the nail and to get my shoulder into my swing. A blacksmith once said to use all four joints; shoulder, elbow, wrist and hand. By hand he meant a loose grip that allowed some motion.
Take care,
Dan
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Banquo,
the results of the McDevitt vs Chouinard are so significantly different have you thought about repeating the test and doing the Chouinard first, have some lunch and then the McDevitt just to verify that the results are accurate?
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
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bhilden -
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I am probably the main uncontrolled variable. I'll do something when I get the time. I also want to try a significantly heavier hammer.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Dan,
Ha,ha, I really don't know how I swing a hammer. Been a carpenter all my life and I still bend nails. BITD it was all piece work. Paid by the square foot not by the hour. The more nails you drove the more money you made. Summer time meant you could work daylight till dark 7 days a week, be in top shape, AND make a bunch of money. Maybe that history is what makes bolt replacement kinda fun rather than work. Alone, high up there in a sea of rock, tunes blasting in your ears, driving steel. Yea, it don't get much better than that.
I am home for a few days and when I go back up on Monday, I'll throw an extra D-5 hammer in the car.(I have 2) You or a friend will surely be in "The Valley" sometime this summer. You can use it for your testing, bolt replacement, or whatever, and I will get it back when I see you next season. I have a lot of hammers but it is either the A-5 or D-5 that I keep coming back to. I use a Wilderness Drill Holder with SDS bits to complete the set up.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 11:24am PT
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So yesterday I got out a new drill bit and tried to repeat the Chouinard hammer test. I got about an 3/4" down and inadvertently moved my drill to the wrong hole for a minute or two and had to abandon the test.
After resting for a day and covering the old holes with masking tape, I tried again today. I drilled hard with the Chouinard hammer and actually feel my arm is getting stronger from all the drilling.
I increased the depth of a starter hole 2.000" in 13 minutes and 42 seconds.Drilling speed was 6.85 minutes per inch or 0.146 inches per minute. Almost exactly what I got last time (6.72 minutes per inch).
I don't know what is happening here. The only thing I have noted is that the Chouinard hammer is old and the handle was a bit loose. I did add a wedge to the handle last week.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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...material science...
The BD hammer is cast. Probably the worst way to make a hammer. Even the cheapest hardware store hammers are forged or machined. (Though the BD is investment cast, which is the best method for casting, but still not a good grain structure for a percussion tool).
The McDivitt, I believe, is machined. Better, as the grain structure is uniform and in line.
But forged hammers are best. The original Chouinard hammer, the Forrest hammer, the A5 and the D5 are all forged hammers. Ask a carpenter what kind of hammer works best--they're all forged, of course. They have the least amount of vibration and the most efficient transfer of momentum. Your elbows will thank you.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
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deuce4-
That may be it. I was also thinking about how soft the Chouinard hammer is. Any energy spent in plastic deformation of the face of the hammer can't be transmitted to the drill. Hardware store hammers typically have a hardened face.
The Chouinard hammer may have been primarily intended for placing pitons which hopefully doesn't take as much pounding as bolts and since pitons are hardened a hardened hammer may not be a good idea.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
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I decided to test the bigger hammer is better theory. I bought a small Estwing "Drilling Hammer" at the hardware store for $15 plus tax. This is as small as drilling hammers get at 2 pounds. It seems pretty well balanced and has a hardened face but the plastic handle vibrates a bit. I used the bit from the previous test so it had seen about 3 inches of drilling but was fairly new. I started with a 0.099" inch deep hole like the other tests and went to 2.096" in 20m and 58s. I pounded like a madman and was completely drenched in sweat.
This was the heaviest hammer, slowest result and biggest disappointment to date.
Edit: Estwing claims a forged steel head:
http://www.estwing.com/ss_2lb_3lb_drilling_hammer.php
Comparison so far:
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jul 10, 2014 - 03:07am PT
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Never did understand those Estwing hammers--what they were designed for--too heavy, and handle too short, and thus very unbalanced.
Looking forward to see how the A5/D5 fares in your tests...
Edit-You should also try to get a hold of an older Chouinard wall hammer and perhaps a old Forrest wall hammer, too.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
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This morning I got out the Omega Pacific hammer. Surely the ugliest hammer of the lot. I got out yet another new drill bit and made my usual 0.1" starter hole and then drilled to 2". Precisely it took 11m 14s to go 1.917" for 5.86 Minutes/inch. Better than I expected and better than the Chouinard.
I was starting to think the McDevitt results 3.70 min/in) had to be in error so this afternoon I went to the grinding wheel and sharpened one of the bits I have been using. I figured with a sharper bit it had to drill at least as fast as the first McDevitt test. Plus, I only went 1 inch in the first test. Once again I started a hole and then drilled to 2 inches. I went 1.987 inches in 4m 40s for an astounding 2.34 minutes per inch. This is almost 3 times as fast as the Chouinard hammer.
I think I really like the McDevitt hammer. These are machined, not forged or cast so they would seemingly be fairly easy to make if one had access to a milling machine. Preferably CNC.
I really wish I had an A5/D5 hammer to try. Anybody selling?
Current data:
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
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Banquo, Deuce,
I have a Chouinard Yosemite hammer circa 1975. Does that have a forged head? If so, I am heading from my house in Boulder to my house in Mountain View on Saturday so we can work out a way to get that hammer to Banqo for testing.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jul 10, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
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Hey Dan,
I have a D5 and a 70's era Chouinard hammer you can borrow if you want.
Let me know.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2014 - 10:40am PT
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mucci has offered to loan me a D5 hammer so maybe I will get to fill in that blank soon.
If you have been bored by this thread so far, prepare for worse. I have a small 200g, 3 axis accelerometer. I attached it to a hammer handle and took some data. The axis parallel to the handle didn't show much of interest. The axis perpendicular to the handle and the head didn't show much either. As expected the axis perpendicular to the handle and parallel to the head was where all the action was. If the center of gravity is below the head in the handle, one would expect a jolt towards the knuckles (down if hammering on a level surface) when the head strikes. Data sampled at 3600 samples per second. The magnitude of the signal can't really be compared since it is dependent on how hard I strike but the duration of vibration is of interest.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2014 - 10:47am PT
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Frequency content is of interest too. The accelerometer came with a fixed 200 Hz low pass filter so frequencies above 200 are attenuated. I don't know how much but it seems to be a simple RC filter.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 12, 2014 - 11:36am PT
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Wow...nifty data!
I'd love to have a McD hammer if anyone wants to part with one...
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
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I am considering making some copies of the McDevitt hammer head. I don't know what steel they used but am thinking of using 4140, cold rolled, square stock and see what happens. Matching the handle might be a problem too but I am looking into it.
In the meantime, here is a subjective comparison between the D5 and the McDevitt. Read the last paragraph of the first post here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1743679/Testing-Aric-s-New-Hand-Drill-Prototype
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2014 - 09:05am PT
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I've tested all the hammers I have. A couple things to bear in mind; I am looking at drilling only and my study may not be relevant to big wall climbers who don’t drill very often, there are uncontrolled variables and I have tried to remain objective and unbiased but I am human.
I had hoped that I could correlate my weight and balance measurements with drilling rate but I didn't find any reliable predictor. There is some relationship between weight and drilling rate; a hammer that is too light probably doesn't work because the rock doesn't pulverize, too heavy doesn't work either - perhaps because I cannot control a heavy hammer and it is tiring to swing. My optimum weight is somewhere around 26 ounces but the optimum weight will no doubt be different for different people. If you weigh 95 pounds and have skinny arms, you may want a lighter hammer.
For the drilling rates in my tests I used both sharpened and unsharpened bits. I have adjusted the unsharpened rates by multiply each by 3.70/2.35 (the ratio for the two McDevitt results). Whether or not this is appropriate is debatable.
1) The McDevitt hammer (0.426 "/min, #1 of 10) was clearly the fastest driller. The weight is right and the handle is long enough. I have large hands (thumb to pinkie span of 9.5 inches) and I like that it has a fairly fat handle making it easier to grip and control. Other factors may be the axially symmetric head and no tangs for a solid matching of head and handle. The steel head seems to be of the right hardness. The hammer seems to be well damped and doesn't vibrate. The head appears to be machined, hardened and tempered which works and is probably much easier to make than a forged head. It’s odd but to me this hammer feels heavier in the hand than it is.
2) The GI Yosemite Hammer knockoff (0.385 "/min #3 of 10) is my second pick. The tangs and handle are set in something that looks like epoxy which makes the head firm and stable. The head is harder than the Chouinard and seems to have properties similar to the McDevitt. The handle is very similar to the Chouinard but it somehow feels better and the hammer is better damped than the Chouinard.
3) The Chouinard (0.234 "/min #8 of 10) is a good hammer but didn't drill very fast. It may be better at piton work than drilling. My hammer is old and the head may be a bit loose which may have slowed it down. The steel is soft which may waste energy. This is a popular hammer and I had thought it would do better. If BD is reading this, send me a new one and I would be happy to test it.
4) Modified Engineers Hammer (0.258 "/min #5 of 10) I used an old Swiss engineers hammer to make this a few years ago. I installed a fiberglass handle and drilled a funk hole with a carbide drill bit. This hammer worked better than I expected and was faster than the Chouinard. The handle is very secure but could be longer. The steel is very hard and dented the striking surface on the drill holder. If I was making another one of these, I would use a longer handle and temper the steel to make it a little softer.
5) The Salewa Rockhammer (0.256 "/min #6 of 10) is an odd little hammer but Salewa claims it is balanced and that the handle damps vibration. It makes an annoying ping and vibrates when it strikes. I think the pick is too large and would get tangled in things. This hammer should be heavier, have a longer handle and a shorter pick. The face is quite hard.
6) Omega Pacific Wall Hammer (0.269 "/min #4 of 10). This hammer did better than I expected and better than the Chouinard. The shape of the head makes the center of gravity fairly low but the striking face curves down so this isn't too bad. I find I usually hit at the bottom of the face with most hammers which may compensate for Imbalance. The steel is soft and about the same as the Chouinard. The handle is long enough and although it worked OK the grip is weird. The grip is fairly fat which may help. I like how solidly the handle is mounted in the deep head. Although wood is traditional for handles, I think climbers should consider fiberglass handles since they seem to work well, stay tight, are very tough and don't shrink and swell with moisture change. When your wood handle shrinks up in the desert, drilling efficiency probably drops off.
7) Grivel Thor (0.223 "/min #9 of 10). This hammer is too light and not well balanced. It vibrates but not as much as the Salewa perhaps because the pick is shorter. The wire cleaning tool hidden in the handle works its way out when pounding. I didn't like this hammer much but I would take it as an emergency hammer because it is light. I would remove the cleaning tool and throw it away though.
8) The Forrest Hammer ( 0.391 "/min #2 of 10) is a nice and very fast hammer with a machined head similar to the McDevitt but has a pick welded on. This is not the forged Forrest wall hammer and I am not sure what it was called. It doesn’t seem to be an alpine hammer since the pick is designed as a cleaning tool and isn’t sharpened. The handle length is good. I think I would remove the pick and make the head a bit heavier to compensate. With some modification, this could be better than the McDevitt hammer.
9) Old Ball Peen hammer (0.255 "/ min # 7 of 10) that I had in the garage. I like the axially symmetric and forward weighted head but I think it was too heavy and the skinny handle was hard to grip and control. The steel is very hard. This hammer was tiring to use but did drill faster than the Chouinard.
10) The 2 lb Estwing Drilling Hammer (0.095 "/min #10 of 10) is way too heavy and hard to control.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2014 - 11:04am PT
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What should I test next?
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 23, 2014 - 11:48am PT
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The Bridwell Hammer of course:-)
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
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The Bridwell may be an excellent piton hammer but I'm thinking it is way too heavy for drilling. I'll probably do the D5 or the old Chouinard next.
I can't compare myself to or compete with Deuce with my skinny little chicken wing arms. My 2.3 inches in 5 minutes is nowhere near his 47 seconds.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jul 23, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
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Damn right DMT
I will tell you what, there most certainly IS a perfect hammer for everyone.
Somewhere in that gaggle lays a bolting beast.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Jul 23, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
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Chouinard hammer from the 70's and see how it compares to the newer model. Deuce claims that a 'forged' head is better than 'cast' head so this could be a very good test to see if there is a significant difference.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
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Tried the D5. It's a nice hammer, it swings well, has a great handle and hits solid but I think It's too heavy for me to drill with. Like the other heavier hammers, I have to pace myself and occasionally stop to shake out my arm. If a guy was strong enough and had the stamina, he could probably drill much, much faster with it. The data point fell nicely in line with the other heavier hammers.
These heavier hammers probably work great as piton hammers. I think that for me I need a lighter hammer for the sustained pounding required for drilling. This is a 5 minute test and I doubt anybody pounds on a piton nonstop for 5 minutes.
A good drilling hammer may be the heaviest one that an individual can swing continuously. Maybe carpenters went to heavier hammers when nail guns became common. Not many hand nailed shear walls out there although I have done this when I was much younger.
I clearly need to try a hammer around 22 ounces.
Edit: I had written A5 but meant D5. Sorry about that.
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ClimbingOn
Trad climber
NY
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Jul 23, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
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I'm most curious about the Bridwell hammer and the D5 hammer. I have the BD Yosemite hammer, although have been looking to replace it with a D5 (anyone want to sell?). I would also be curious how a Chouinard Alpine Hammer would do. I have one I could send you for testing once you finish with the batch you currently have.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
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Added three more hammers to the data today.
Forrest wall hammer with cast steel head: 26.7 Oz., 0.304 in/min
70's Chouinard with carbon steel head (Cast?): 24.5 oz., 0.296 in/min
Chouinard Alpine: 24.5 Oz., 0.298 in/min
I expected better from the Forrest cast, perhaps because I wish fiberglass handle would work since they are stronger and don't shrink and loosen the head.
The 70's Chouinard may have drilled slow because the head is a little loose and it has a broken tang. I still believe that tangs slow the drilling because there is more stuff rattling around.
The old 1970's Alpine hammer did better than I thought it would. It hasn't seen much use and the head is tight.
I think what limits drilling speed when the hammer weighs more than 25 ounces is my endurance. Lighter hammers seem to be limited by how many hits per minute I can make. If I could hit at 10 per second with a light hammer, I could drill like a roto-hammer.
Edit: Added cast to description as suggested by Clint below. The hammer with the long pick is referred to as Forrest. I don't think the one with the long pick was called a Nut Hammer, it isn't a Mjollnir.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
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Somehow missed the last page and a half of developments. I'm loving these experiments (including DAMMERR thread).
If you have been excited by this thread so far, prepare for better.
Fixed that for you. :D
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
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Dan,
You should probably edit your latest text description to always say
"Forrest Cast" instead of "Forrest",
because you have that other Forrest hammer (perhaps "Forrest Pick") in the graph already.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2014 - 08:36am PT
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I took the Banquo hammer and cut some steel off the face to match the weight of the DAMMERR (now DAMMERR 01) creating the DAMMERR 02. I have no idea what is happening here but this actually ended up with slower drilling and in no way matched the results of the DAMMERR 01. I made a lighter hammer, the DAMMERR 03, but since the hardware store had run out of the handles I was using, I ended up with a fatter handle. This wasn't particularly impressive either. I Somehow, a fat handle makes a hammer feel heavy.
I also tested a steel handled CMI hammer.
I don't know what has happened, perhaps my technique has changed or maybe I am sharpening drills differently. I do seem to be having more trouble with bits binding which might mean I am hitting harder and perhaps too hard. I am certain I am drilling slower for some reason.
Another series of tests might be in order but I'm not inclined to take it on. I'm getting pretty tired of the process. Maybe somebody else should take over testing. I would advise taking any of my results with a grain of salt.
I am still going to conclude that a hammer with a gross weight of about 25 ounces is best for me.
The numbers in case you want them:
Antique Ball Peen 32.6 0.255
Banquo 28.1 0.364
Bridwell 34.1
Chouinard (1970's?) 24.5 0.296
Chouinard (1980's?) 25.2 0.234
Chouinard Alpine 20.6 0.298
CMI 25.8 0.345
D5 29.3 0.314
DAMMERR 01 24.1 0.441
DAMMERR 02 (was Banquo) 24 0.334
DAMMERR 03 22.7 0.323
Estwing 2Lb drill hammer 38.7 0.150
Forrest cast 26.7 0.304
Forrest Nut Hammer 24.6 0.391
G.I. Surplus Yosemite Hammer 25.2 0.385
Grivel Thor 16 0.223
McDevitt 26.2 0.426
Modified Engineer's Hammer 25.3 0.258
Omega Pacific Wall Hammer 31.8 0.269
Salewa Rockhammer 16.8 0.256
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Jul 30, 2014 - 09:02am PT
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Banquo,
Clint once told me that he thought bits tended to bind more as they wear(even with sharpening). I can't remember the details, but hopefully he will chime in.
ps- interesting to see the venerable Chouinard 1980's hammer at the bottom of the drilling speed list.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 30, 2014 - 11:34am PT
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bits tended to bind more as they wear(even with sharpening). It's because the outer edges of the carbide tip insert wear down.
So it becomes a smaller diameter drill bit.
Eventually the tip is not a larger diameter than the twisted shaft,
and the shaft binds.
Plus there are less degrees of freedom for the dust to clear from the hole.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Ever think about getting away from wood for the handle?
It makes a difference. For starters they're much easier to hold onto when you're pumped.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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The Forest hammer has a fiberglass handle.
Maybe the worst hammer I have used for drilling. Felt everything up to my elbow.
John-
I would be into a custom rig, those Stanley's look stout. They look great for pitons, how are they for drilling?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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They work better then they did with the wood. I cut the head off of a Stanley contractor graphite hammer to get the shafts. Stanley changed their handles in between the time I made these. The older handle, on the left, is the better of the two handles. They're way easier to grip when tired compared to wood.
The one on the left is a BD head that's been modified to make it lighter. The one on the right is a Snow Peaks head, I think, also modified to loose some weight.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Bosch rotohammer, hilti bits
cuts like butta : )
ok i am a troll… but really, everyone clips those 1/2" suckers i have left there, and they love them.
the other way to approach it, is if you really do not like them, don't clip, climb past them.
You will have more biological impact, buiding and maintaining a single access trail to a route, than all he bolts at joshua tree. if you are concerned about the environment, then worry about accelerated mass wasting and trail cutting. or the soil compaction and vegetation trampling of multiple trails. but don't represent your concern about bolts as environmental… bolts are basicly biologically inert. If you are worried about bolts, it is you trying to force your ethics on others, but it is clearly not about bettering the environment.
Ed
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2014 - 04:51am PT
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I've looked at those Snow Peak tent peg hammers and wondered who they would work. I have a fiberglass handle and want to make a hammer for it. The fiberglass handle is a bit heavier so it will "handle" different.
Ed - power drilling is not permitted in some areas so it is a moot point there. I don't think power drilled bolts are somehow contaminated and shouldn't be clipped, in my mind power drilling doesn't seem as sporting. Also, when I see bolts in inappropriate places, it always seems to be a power drilled bolt.
The sporting part is what I find most satisfying. If catching fish was the point of fishing, fishermen wouldn't bother with fly poles. If a person thinks catching fish is the point of fishing, they don't get it. Putting meat in the freezer generally isn't the point of deer hunting either.
The point of climbing isn't making the ascent as easy as possible.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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The snow peak head works pretty good. I cut the sides to make it square. I don't think it will last as long as some heads, seems to be a softer metal.
Banquo - I'm looking for a hammer with a longer pick for cleaning out cracks and such. Something like a chouinard alpine hammer or maybe a salewa? I was wondering how the shaft is set in the head of the salewa? Would I be able to get it out?
Anyone want to sell me a chouinard alpine hammer for a reasonable price?
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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JohnKelly-
I'm in Michigan right now. When I get back to California I can post some photos of the Salewa. It is a very light hammer and I would only consider it for backup or emergency use.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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JohnKelly,
For extensive crack cleaning, the old Pacific NW trick of using an ice axe works great.
Better depth and leverage.
Hammering into the crack usually doesn't accomplish much in granite.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Clint - that's what I've been doing. Free climbing with an ice axe is a pita. So is driving pins.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2014 - 06:33pm PT
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johnkelley-
Here are some photos of the Salewa Rockhammer. I really think it is too small to do very much drilling with. One could clean with it though.
I think you would be better off to find an old straight handled ice hammer. Omega Pacific used to make the Bulldog which was cheap, small and not much good for climbing. It might work. It looks like you could take the handle out of the head and cut the handle down. You could also make a different pick or drill new holes in the pick to have less droop. Might be hard to find one but whoever has one probably doesn't want it.
Even harder to find would be the Forrest Nut Hammer. A person could make one like this but the pick is welded on so you would have to heat treat it after welding. Would need welding equipment and a kiln.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Aug 12, 2014 - 08:35pm PT
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Maybe I'll try to put a longer shaft on a Salewa?
Maybe a "hammer collector" would part with an alpine hammer?
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
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I don't know how you would get the handle off the Salewa since it doesn't go through the head. 400 degrees F will release most adhesives though. I would assume the tempering temperature is above that and you won't ruin the steel.
Otherwise, if there is something you desire, simply fork out the money and buy it. Nobody is going to sell you an "alpine hammer" for less than they think they can get on Ebay.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:58am PT
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A friend of mine is mailing me two. I asked how much? He said cheap. First thing I'll do is get rid of the wooden handle, grind a little, destroy the collection value...
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 13, 2014 - 08:20am PT
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
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I haven't done any drilling speed tests since I figured out the design for the DAMMERR. So, today I got out an unused DAMMERR (#8), one of my bayonet drill holders and a freshly sharpened bit to see what I could do. I managed to drill a 2-1/8" deep, 3/8" hole in 4 minutes and 30 seconds in hard granite. This is a drill rate of 0.47 inches per minute which is pretty good compared to my past results. The fastest I managed when I tested all the different hammers was 0.44 inches per minute. I think I was faster today because I am better at sharpening bits and I used the bayonet holder rather than the Rocpec I used in the earlier tests. I thought I might be slower since I haven't done any drilling since last fall and my arm is weak.
YouTube video below. Don't worry, I sped up the playback so it isn't too long:
https://youtu.be/fezX_2M080Q
Old test data:
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