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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 21, 2006 - 11:17am PT
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OK Folks,
I was listening to a debate on Fox Sports News this morning about who in sports has the most mental toughness. Names like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods came up. It occured to me that mental toughness is certainly an important trait in climbing. Soo, who in the climbing world stands out in you mind that possesses Mental Toughness. Of course Harding's mental toughness is well chronicled.
Cracko
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Aug 21, 2006 - 11:52am PT
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Anyone who has removed a tooth using climbing tools, while stuck on a remote face somewhere!!!!!
Seriously, Twight comes to mind, as do the two guys who did the Azzem(sp?) Ridge a few years back - they dropped their stove, and most of the cams on the second day, but they continued on up and over nonetheless
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 21, 2006 - 11:59am PT
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Sports stars mental toughness? Blah
Mental toughness, the single mom who has to work for a living. Her job never ends.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 21, 2006 - 12:08pm PT
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Toush-ay Werner.
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Aug 21, 2006 - 12:11pm PT
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Yup, can't argue with that one!
We've got one tech in our lab, busts her ass all day, then goes home and is mom for the rest of the night. Respect......
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2006 - 01:02pm PT
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Werner,
Don't forget the single dad man !!!
Cracko
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Aug 21, 2006 - 01:14pm PT
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Leave it to Werner to give us a dose of perspective. I think you'll find that this is why a lot of these hard core climbers don't have kids. Its too hard.
Irish- That was Kelly Cordes and Josh Wharton. All those hard core alpinists are somewhere between mentally tough and batsh#t-crazy. House, Twight, Blanchard, Kirkpatrick...
But then again, I think some of those guys enjoy suffering. Does it really count as mental toughness if you're enjoying it?
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Sir Run-it-out
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 21, 2006 - 01:25pm PT
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I fear I must disagree with Werner. Yes, we all feel sympathy for the single parent, working all day and night to put food on the able. But what about the alpinist with an injured partner, far from help, who must make decisions as to their immediate survival. Or worse yet, decide that the only way for one of them to survive is to abandon the other. And make these decisions in a very short period of time, based on limited information, under extreme stress, while experiencing serious physical hardship that affect cognitive function.
I guess it depends how you define "mental toughness". Is it something that is demonstrated on a medium level continuously over a period of many years, or the ability to react well to incredibly tough situations, but which (one way or another) will be over in a few days.
Of course, if the climber in question is a low income single parent, then they're obviously the winner.
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dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
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Aug 21, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
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well I just been climbing with Andy Kirkpatrick.....well actually he was teaching me how to aid climb solo and I must say, he comes across as a totally normal person, even though he seems to love to suffer (he even admits that)!
I don't know what constitutes mental toughness, except that I know I don't seem to have it and need to work on it! Last time I did 3 hook moves after each other, my mind was fried and I was quaking in my boots!
So not sure if I would say Andy Kirkpatrick is mentally tough as much as he seems pretty determined and maybe its that which makes up mental toughness?????
If you ever get the chance to watch Cold Haul its a interesting film showing Andy & Ian Parnell (sp?) climbing the Laiffaie(sp?) route on the west face of the Petit Dru (Mont Blanc) in winter! And all I can say, it looks cold and unpleasant I blieve it has at least one A5 pitch?
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Aug 21, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
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In American climbing it's got to be John Salathe. I agree with Harding too. If vision, determination and ability to march on to success no matter what is mental toughness then those guys are crowned princes.
I think mental toughness in most sports is too hard to read. Why is it that the most talented guys get labeled as mentally tough (Woods, Montana, MJ, Grezky, etc.)? Are all pro sports really just mental games? If so what does talent have to do with it? I know it’s a combination of things but I think we're talking about mental toughness in the clutch or “when the going gets tough”. I honestly don't think you can measure that so easily in a 3 hour game. Sure sometimes you can, like when MJ scored 39 points in the finals against the Jazz and he had the flu. I watched that game and it truly was an amazing display of determination. But that was a rare exception.
Now imagine days of dehydration, starvation, sleep deprivation, weight loss, digestive tract changes, emotional roller coasters, exposure, discomfort, illness, these are the things that really take a toll on the mind. How much at that level do the sports stars really deal with consistently? Wall climbers and alpinists, along with sailors and trailblazers are the toughest. Oh and fighters (wrestlers, boxers, competative martial arts, etc.) too. Those guys are trained to be mentally tough. If you've even been to wrestling or a serious martial arts or boxing practice you'll know what I'm talking about. It's like off-widths and squeeze chims at your limit 5 days a week for months on end with increasing demands for speed and efficiency every week. That will make you tough.
Competitiveness, that’s another story. About MJ, he had to race 12 year olds in the swimming pool and beat them he was so damn competitive! Ping pong too! He’s so competitive it’s annoying to be around him. That’s why many basket ball players (my brother was one and played against MJ) don’t consider him the best, just the most competitive.
BTW, I was raised by a single mom. It wasn’t mental toughness that pulled us though before she remarried. It was more akin to faith. Sure she’s tough, but that’s not one of her stronger traits.
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 21, 2006 - 04:15pm PT
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Teachers; particularly, special education teachers.
(Since many of the climbers I know are teachers, I feel that this is a valid answer!)
BB
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Aug 21, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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First time climber asked me in the gym a few months ago what percentage of climbing I thought was mental. I said at least 85%.
Upon reflection, I think that's pretty close to accurate.
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Twight is God
Mountain climber
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Aug 21, 2006 - 10:18pm PT
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Here's a quick 5:
Reinhold Messner, Jerzy Kukuckza, Voytek Kurtyka, Tomaz Humar, Jean-Christope Lafaille
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DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
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Aug 21, 2006 - 10:31pm PT
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Hey Twight-is-God,
Is God mentally tough?
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Karen
Trad climber
Good question?
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Aug 21, 2006 - 10:33pm PT
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A single parent, who climbs and is a special ed teacher in the inner city.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 21, 2006 - 11:11pm PT
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What's that Hemingway quote:
Something like,
There's only three sports, bullfighting, auto racing and mountain climbing.
All the rest are games.
It seems clear that wall climbing gives way to alpinism and that's the cake taker.
If you just read the Mountain Profiles in Alpinist, it seems that the position for toughest mental adept is up for grabs and being won by all kinds of people who do that stuff.
When Russ and I were doing The Prow, he was sick with the flu, or a pretty bad cold. We got to the base and he had no harness; he just fashioned a makeshift sit harness out of one-inch webbing and up we went. At one point, I saw him step off the belay and up into his aiders. At that moment I had this subtle epiphany: I had a pretty good idea how poorly he felt and he was just charging forth -although The Prow is no big deal, I felt like I could see into his resolve and I knew that if he wanted, he could be an alpinist.
I went on to do primarily free climbs for myself, while Russ did in fact tackle some pretty gnarly wall games,
-er, sports.
To get a little thread drifty here:
I find free climbing (notwithstanding some of the tremendous free soloists of our times), with its simple, clean and forthright solutions pegs at a level of elegance, before it tops out on mental toughness.
What I have found interesting is comparing rigorous aerobic sports with climbing in terms of the mental toughness quotient.
If you think of Lance Armstrong, man, anybody completing a Tour de France for that matter, there is inordinate mental toughness at play.
My wife has been in two of those Tours; when I started riding with her, I began to notice how arduous and repetitive that style of athletics is, which I found quite mentally straining; especially when riding big hills, because Lisa with her clean burning Zen like demeanor would ride up away from me, while I was straining to the max and suffering every moment of it. By contrast, when you're climbing you have this sweet boost of adrenaline that seems to cut through, to lift and to lighten the mental load.
Of course, once you get aerobic athletics dialed it has its own sort of internal return, which again seems to lighten the mental strain: more of an endorphin than an adrenaline.
Nevertheless, I think climbing has a very unique and uplifting internal return, which bolsters our mental toughness.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 21, 2006 - 11:29pm PT
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Jay said"Competitiveness, that’s another story. About MJ, he had to race 12 year olds in the swimming pool and beat them he was so damn competitive! Ping pong too! He’s so competitive it’s annoying to be around him. That’s why many basket ball players (my brother was one and played against MJ) don’t consider him the best, just the most competitive."
Uh, Jay, not to disparage or question your bro, but isnt the point of BBall to win? then by its very nature it IS competitive. Therefore, competitiveness is a key ingredient to being a winning player in the NBA. I do think you are onto something. Seems like there are many pro games where they dont seem like they want to win very bad. That made MJ much more fun to watch, you just knew the guy would put out 100%...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2006 - 12:50am PT
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Which would involve more mental toughness, Russ doing the Prow now, or with the flu back then?
Tiger Woods mentally tough? Give me a break. Being a mega-millionaire famous guy is probably tough but those guys won't be tough until they start killing some of the losers at random.
Toughness starts where talent and experience ends.
That Joe Simpson story kinda sums it up though
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Aug 22, 2006 - 12:58am PT
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" Teachers; particularly, special education teachers."
-Blackbird,
are you single?
do you like offwidth?
Had to ask.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 22, 2006 - 01:13am PT
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Bridwell and me once worked rebuilding some rich guys pier on lake Tahoe. We were dismantling the old one when a huge nail in one of the supports rips the flesh in Bridwells arm, about 7 inches long. A real nasty looking cut. He screamed!
We go inside the rich guys house and Bridwell asks if there's a doctor in the house. Believe it, there's some guy there at that moment who's a med school to be doctor. Bridwell asks if he has stitches in his bag and if he knows how to do it. The future to be doc tells him that he's only done cadavers.
Bridwell tells doc to get his sh#t and start stitching. The doc gets kinda queasy and says he needs a beer. Beer was given. Bridwell sticks a rag in his mouth and doc stitches him up. No local anesthetic or pain killers, nothing.
All finished stitching and we go back out to the lake to work till dark
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 22, 2006 - 01:20am PT
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When I was living with Peter and his mom Melody in Berekeley,
The Bird came by for a couple days; he had a few things going, primarily working concrete.
He was proud to say his breakfast each morning before working the hard labor consisted of a sugar donut and two Schlitz talls.
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john hansen
climber
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Aug 22, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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I own a collection of the AAJ back to 1970 and I am amazed at the amount of stories that have "and tragedy" tacked on the end.
The japanese, koreans, and russians,all seem to take death as a given. The poles don't even consider thier climb a sucess unless a couple of them die or lose didgets. From the volcanoes of South America to Denali to minor and major mountians in the himalaya, people keep falling to thier death's .
Every one of them thought they had 'Mental Toughness"
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 22, 2006 - 01:38am PT
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If Black Birdie Super Kutsie Ultra Lass
Is in fact single,
And I think this is so,
It's gotta be one ah the greatest of mysteries.
Prolly, She's just smart, picky and rightly bright.
I'd bet money she can send a modest offwidth Jay.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Aug 22, 2006 - 02:21am PT
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Hope springs eternal.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Aug 22, 2006 - 11:16am PT
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I just spent a night volunteering at the 76-mile aid station at the Leadville Trail 100, one of those twisted ultramarathon affairs. In this instance, folks run, or walk, a hundred mountain miles, and they're given 30 hours to do it. Some people- most of them older-- have done this race, and others like it, many times.
Endurance sports demand their own brand of toughness that's accessible to just about anyone in reasonable shape-- no special talents required (unlike climbing), and relatively inexpensive (unlike transoceanic sailing, dogsledding across Antarctica, etc.). I am constantly impressed by the determination of these everyday athletes.
Once in a while, nearing the end of a big day in the mountains, I find myself hiking out in the dark, exhausted, and I'm maybe on mile 12 or so for the day. At times like these I try and imagine what it would be like to be on mile 85, in the dark, exhausted.
You couldn't pay me enough to do that sh#t.
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Aug 22, 2006 - 11:35am PT
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I’ll tell you what’s tough. Being nailed to a tree to die, not deserving it, keeping your mouth shut, resisting all temptations to defend yourself, being obedient to the cause of love, all the while praying for those who made false accusations against you and who beat you and then hung you because of it. Now that’s TOUGH!
Other than that, toughest man I ever met was my dad.
Depending on the goal I think there comes a point where what we might call mental toughness might really be an imbalance of priorities. Seeking to shake hands with death and live to tell the tail does not imply tough.
Golsen, no problem with your critique. I was trying to separate mental toughness with competitiveness, if I could, and wondering if I’m splitting hairs. Indeed MJ was a joy to watch… best player I ever saw. It was his drive for competition that made him the best. It was his discipline (Jerry Rice comes to mind too). But how much of that hard work and attitude was because he knew he could execute? I think if he didn’t have all the talent in the world and the discipline to refine what wasn't perfect I doubt he would’ve had the confidence to pull it off. Part of his “toughness” was supported by that confidence. If you’re 100% sure you can execute it’s easier to simply get down to business. But let’s say you don’t have the excessive talent, and you don’t have the confidence, what does it take? Is it even possible to execute at that level? Honestly I don’t know. I tend to think not. I mean you do have to believe in yourself at some point, right? But how much confidence does one need? Maybe just a little. But a lot goes further.
Did Salathe and Nelson think they would actually make it up Lost Arrow Chimney five days out of the valley? Or did they build faith as the adventure went higher and higher? Word is that Salathe received a vision from an angel in a dream. Was that faith? Was that tough?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
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Jay wrote
"I’ll tell you what’s tough. Being nailed to a tree to die, not deserving it, keeping your mouth shut, resisting all temptations to defend yourself, being obedient to the cause of love, all the while praying for those who made false accusations against you and who beat you and then hung you because of it. Now that’s TOUGH!"
That's cake if you KNOW it's your ticket to the best imaginable world, and it was supposedly your plan to do it from the start. The real sacrifice was coming to this inhospitable planet and living 33 years in a pile of meat!
But, not to hijack the thread. Toughness starts when talent and training leave off, JC doesn't qualify.
Peace
Karl
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Aug 22, 2006 - 01:29pm PT
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Yeah I know he knew what was happening but if it was such a piece of cake why in the world did he say this, not once, not twice but three times!? "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
That doesn't sound like he was looking forward to it now does it? It was the one time in his life that The Father took his eyes off of him. The prospect of that to us seems normal, but to him it was agonizing.
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 22, 2006 - 03:09pm PT
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Jaybro & Tarbousier: I know nothing I plead the 5th it wasn't me I didn't do it AND I don't know how to climb or use those pretty shiny clippy things!!!
Anyway, Jaybro, aren't you supposed to be getting in touch with me regarding beta for steep southern routes??? Weather's changing, Dearie, and T-Wall season rapidly draws neigh... Plan your trip and let me know!
Tar, you're too good to me; yet another ego boost!! And for the record, hate to tell ya but methinks youthinks correctly.
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Michelle
Ice climber
I want a man with man-sized toys.
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Aug 22, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
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klaussypoo
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Teth
climber
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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Aug 22, 2006 - 03:41pm PT
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Well, I always thought my Great Grandfather was tough. He once split his foot open with an axe, came home, stitched it up himself, put his boot back on and went back out to cut the rest of the firewood. Oh, and then there was the time he caught lock-jaw. He knocked a tooth out so that he could feed himself through a straw, then carved wooden wedges which he used to pry his jaws apart over the course of two weeks. Then in WW1 there was Vimi Ridge, and OH yeah, he was the guy at Yeeps (sp?) who told the guys to piss in their handkerchiefs to make make-shif gas masks so that enough guys survived the gas attack to man the machine guns and repel the Germans. Then later in the war he was carrying two 75 pound artillery shells (he was only supposed to carry one, but Clevelands like to show off) while crossing a plank over a trench when an explosion knocked him off the plank and he cut his gut open on shrapnel. He woke up in the dead pile and had to drag himself with one hand to the medical centre while holding his guts in with the other hand.
Unfortunately he never took up climbing, so he probably does not qualify on this thread, so I will go with Bridwell due to WBraun’s story, although maybe that is just regular toughness rather than mental toughness? Maybe mental toughness is about forcing yourself to make rational decisions while under extreme stress.
Teth Cleveland
[Edit]
Rereading my post it sounds like a troll, but it is not. My great grandfather really did all those things. The Bridwell story reminded me of my great grandfather splitting his foot with the axe and as I wrote that I just kept remembering more stories about him. I wish I could have met him, but he died the year I was born.
[/Edit]
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 22, 2006 - 05:23pm PT
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sory fat, its us for coming back even kow we might fid yo here (lol). just kddin
Good story teth. I think those guys who perform in an environment out of their control are way tougher then climbers. Climbers are just not to bright, they actually put themselves in life or death situations by choice...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Aug 22, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
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Great tale Teth, are you related to Pete Cleveland of CMC fame?
BBird, I forgot! Keep it wide, wild, and steep; hope I too can "send a modest offwidth," should the need arise. Looking at a roadworthy rig as I speak (anybody hear anything good, or bad, about the, naturally aspirated, 2.3 litre Saab powerplant?)
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Aug 22, 2006 - 08:17pm PT
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Jaybro - Blackbird is a dream come true - single, hard core climber, special ed educator, and smart. She has a great smile to go with her great abs. Can't believe you've not made it to Tennessee with her yet!
p.s. I want to go too!
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Aug 22, 2006 - 08:26pm PT
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Never been to T Wall, but eager to go.
Three days at Red River Gorge. Simply wonderful. Ever been there, Crimpy?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 22, 2006 - 08:47pm PT
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jay, "I was trying to separate mental toughness with competitiveness, if I could, and wondering if I’m splitting hairs. Indeed MJ was a joy to watch… best player I ever saw. It was his drive for competition that made him the best. It was his discipline (Jerry Rice comes to mind too). But how much of that hard work and attitude was because he knew he could execute? I think if he didn’t have all the talent in the world and the discipline to refine what wasn't perfect I doubt he would’ve had the confidence to pull it off. Part of his “toughness” was supported by that confidence. If you’re 100% sure you can execute it’s easier to simply get down to business. But let’s say you don’t have the excessive talent, and you don’t have the confidence, what does it take? Is it even possible to execute at that level? Honestly I don’t know. I tend to think not. I mean you do have to believe in yourself at some point, right? But how much confidence does one need? Maybe just a little. But a lot goes further."
This could probably use its own thread. Confidence, mental discipling, toughness. All interrelated, mostly mental. The confidence thing is particularly pertinent to climbing and appropriate to all levels of climbers. It can also be trained to a certain degree. about 15 years ago I read "The Mental Athlete" which had a lot of good techniques to help out and are related to this but not neceesarily to toughness.
I view toughness as something required after everything else has been used up. Of course if you are very mentally disciplined and confident, then perhaps you may not need the toughness as soon as the next guy.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 22, 2006 - 09:58pm PT
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"Gotta learn to live with what you can't rise above."
 The Boss
both require mental tuffness.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 22, 2006 - 10:09pm PT
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Fergit' Mental Toughness;
Ferget the naturally aspirated anything Jay,
G-Get a bus ticket and fly fly away.
If I were single, Ida' already left the house without lacing my shoes and busted both shins aginst' the doorway making the turn for the horizon just to git out to sweet Tennessee for a cup a coffee with the Black Bird-a-Lee...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Aug 22, 2006 - 10:53pm PT
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This should be over on the Troll/Art thread; sometimes you don't know what doors you're opening. WWAH*D?
The first three day plan-er?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 23, 2006 - 01:20am PT
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Yer right Jay,
But that thread is shredding what's left of my mental toughness.
Sorry BB, that last flurry was a bit over the top, but I'm sure you'll enjoy it all the same.
'Member, It's the thought that counts, even if the cadence is a bit rich..
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Teth
climber
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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Aug 23, 2006 - 07:33am PT
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I put some more thought into this. Here is what I came up with:
Tough: My Great Grandfather & Bridwell (does not exclude him from other categories)
Mental Focus: Tiger Woods (and most other athletes to some degree)
Mental Toughness: Anyone who can still think straight near the top of Mount Everest.
If Tiger Woods was able to maintain his mental focus after rolling in poison ivy, that would be mental toughness.
Being tough means you do not give up when your body wants to quit, or you are willing to suffer to get the job done. Mental toughness means that you are able to make rational decisions or concentrate on difficult tasks when external conditions are threatening to drive you insane.
For people who have a fear of heights, rock climbing requires a certain degree of mental toughness not to let their fear effect their decisions. People climbing high mountains who have to deal with low oxygen and bad weather need to be mentally tough because their lives depend on them making rational decisions in extreme conditions.
Teth
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2006 - 08:15am PT
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Thanks Tar... yet another ego boost! (and no apologies necessary, Dearie)!
JB, keep me posted on your trip!
Crimpie - when're we climbin' again, Madam? Let's figure out the school schedules and rope up.
MM, naw... Crimpie don't know nothin 'bout the Red (she's prolly never even heard of it... I know I haven't. I seem to recall her talk of trying to find the place, though... Actually, she OWNS it!)
I agree with golsen and Teth, there is a distinct difference between mental focus and mental toughness; unfortunately, most folks equate them... Mental toughness is about being the best you can be, often times for reasons known only to you, and often times through great diversity and trials of the physical, mental and emotional type. I'd put the single parents up against Tiger Woods any day of the week...
BB
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 23, 2006 - 10:39am PT
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That's cool BBirdie,
Be sure to look me up when you get out west and we'll toast that glass of vino and amble up some modest OW.
You can meet Lisa, she's a jewel.
I know by then you'll have in tow a veritable Harem of Mentally Tuff Suitors, that's fine, they can come too but they'll be drinkin' PBR.
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:30am PT
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33 years in a pile of meat! ...nice one, Karl.
Hey, I think Mr Bachar belongs in the mix.
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:55am PT
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agreed golsen. Sounds like were on pretty much the same page. Although I think my notes are a little more messy.
I don't think about thinking when I think about climbing.
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 23, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
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Knowing that the way out is the way through and living accordingly.
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2006 - 05:05pm PT
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Tar - absolutely; I look forward to both meeting your honey and raising a glass with the both of you and to ambling up some routes with you (modest OW or otherwise... there's gotta be more climbing to be had on my next trip out west than there was on my last one... ...) Regarding the HMTS... You funny, Tarhoney!
MM - TW is fantastic and definitely worth the trip!
Jaybro - keep me posted.
Crimpie - Thanks!! And for the record, folks, she's a MUCH stronger climber than I ever thought about being!
Back OT, now... Sorry for the diversion, folks.
Mental toughness...
Rereading, I must also agree with Karl: toughness DOES start where talent and training leave off. Those two things can only et you so far, but the ability to pick yourself up by the proverbial bootstraps and carry on despite all says something about a person's character and can take you further than you ever thought possible... I know that there are those folks out there who will disagree with me to the point of wanting to blast me, but before you do that, think about it from all angles...
BB
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Aug 23, 2006 - 05:14pm PT
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I think the definition of mental toughness is key here. What does a person who is mentally tough have to be able to not just cope with, but thrive on? I would propose:
Training:
Prior to the 'situation' in question, I think, especially for athletes (including but not limited to climbers), is a period of intense and dedicated training towards an objective. The capacity to voluntarily suffer on a regular basis at such a level as to significantly raise one's performance is an aspect of mental toughness. It is then that it is very easy to quit and never make an attempt or to lower the goal to suit an easier training regimen. As I understand, this is where Bachar has been a notch above the crowd, and I think is a key to where the final manifestation of his mental toughness is derived.
Fear:
For high level and very competitive athletes in 'mainstream' sports, the fear of failure can be very real and palpable. Not necessarily as real as the fear of death, but real nonetheless. For climbers it is far more obvious and real.
Fatigue:
Many folks have said that mental toughness comes in when the training and skill run out. See above for the training part, but I would agree that someone with immense physical skill does not have to rely on mental toughness in the same way that someone with less physical skill might in the same situation. There is also a difference between being tired and being fatigued. Tired is 'I need a break', I see fatigue as the beginnings of a physiological breakdown.
Pain:
Many folks on this thread, when not flirting, have used examples of people who have been injured, duct taped their arm back on (or whatever), and continued. Pain in this instance can be anything from distracting to incapacitating.
Uncertainty:
Here's where I think the line is drawn between mental toughness and competitveness in some ways. Michael Jordan knows that the basketball game will last 48 minutes, plus an overtime or two. He knows how big the court is, how high the net is, and who is on the other team. Tiger is shooting 18 each day and gets some practice rounds beforehand. In Werner's single mom example, the day to day uncertainties of life can easily overwhelm. A wall climber on an FA sees 1000' of uncertainty looming overhead. Uncertainty to me means that the person either can not see the light at the end of the tunnel, or can't see the path to get there. It is much easier to suck it up for two more hours or days or weeks than it is to just keep sucking it up until who knows when.
A person's ability to experience all of those things to an extreme and still have the mental capacity to force one's body to continue and succeed is the measure of their mental toughness. Bonus points if continuing physically also includes tasks that are very difficult when not under such duress. And based on those criteria, the winner is....
Joe Simpson?
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sketchy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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Aug 23, 2006 - 05:28pm PT
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As far as climbers twight is god's list is good but I would add those kiwi's though I cant remember their names(lindblade and Whimp?) As far the overall, Shackleton takes the cake. Endurance is on of the best books I have ever read on hardship and survival. The fact that none of those guys died is amazing.
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Aug 23, 2006 - 05:35pm PT
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oohh, Shackleton. Good one.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 23, 2006 - 05:50pm PT
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I like those metrics, if that's the proper term, which Burns laid out.
Taking this along with Karl's notion of leaving talent and training behind, and then including the remaining factors which Burns noted we could have a basis upon which to establish the "Comfort Zone", or trained limitations cultivated by the candidate, which is then to be left behind en route to the Tuff Zone.
We then gauge all the contestants' relative status per their relationship to those metrics, then see how far each has surpassed their "Comfort Zone" and Voila: we have the winner.
For me personally, sleep deprivation is the territory where I feel most called upon to pull on Mental Toughness. But if I imagine or recall times when all the Burns factors were strained beyond my limits, I get a sense of that space replete with mental agony and then I say to myself, "Yah Babee, that was the time when I was a real tough guy, just hanging in to that wicked drum beat of perseverence, where I felt rigged out on a thin string in a timeless void".
I'm surprised the Shack party didn't enter into this earlier.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Aug 23, 2006 - 08:46pm PT
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Didn't Tiger™ buy a couple sets of single parents recently?
Pretty sure I read thet somewhere.
Seriously, Mike Royko once had a great column about this, I'll try to track it down before the diurnal dimmensia claims me agin.
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Misha
Trad climber
Woodside, CA
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Aug 23, 2006 - 08:58pm PT
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Nobody mentioned Peter Croft and Dean Potter? Yes, pot "delicately" gets to Dean's head sometimes, but you can't deny his boldness. He has to have titanium-plated balls.
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2006 - 09:09pm PT
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Burns - extremely well stated.
What's interesting is the moments of mental toughness we sometimes summon within ourselves in horrible times.
Hence the bootstraps. IMO, it IS the uncertainty that defines mental toughness. The ability to follow through to completion when the end is plainly marked is one thing; there is training on every level to ensure that that aspect is taken care of as best as can possibly be prepared for... The uncertainty, the fuzzy ending, the mystery, now THAT takes some fortitude to carry on despite (or maybe because of) the duct tape...
Very few of us are always tough, able to weather any insult that fate throws at us.
Honestly, I would not want to be around someone who WAS able to weather any insult fate found to hurl their way... I want to know that there is a human side somewhere deep in the recesses...
My vote: In the climbing related category, chalk another for Shackleton. In the day to day, take what you get and make it work, real life category, I still must stand by public school teachers and the single parents out there trying to make ends meet on minimum wage.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 24, 2006 - 12:22pm PT
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Stich wrote:
"Even our tough, old grandfathers and grandmothers allowed themselves to lose it when they were alone perhaps. Maybe you were there to play cards with them or have a nice dinner one day to add a simple moment of joy in their lives. Even acts of kindness hurt sometimes, but the hurt is a good one."
Bravo.
This is the compliment to toughness, the other side of the coin, and like BBird's hope for the complimentary "human side" of things to take its place in the mix (and of course semanticaly it's all human) I'm going to go one more step with Stich and propose that toughness is the means by which we sustain the opportunity to access that "good hurt" once more: toughness serves to protect a kernel of sweetness which we all strive to experience and hold fast to the core of our lives.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 24, 2006 - 03:24pm PT
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Cracko:
"Soo, who in the climbing world stands out in you mind that possesses Mental Toughness."
I'm going to go with some people who've done serious Alpinism and after generations of activism are still putting out.
Jim Donini, Jack Tackle, Jim Bridwell, George Lowe.
'Need some help with the women, they're out there.
Kitty Calhoun, Catherine Destivelle.
The late Wanda Rutkiewicz(sp), Catherine Freer and Sue Nott.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2006 - 01:42pm PT
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Tarbuster,
Since you asked, and I started this thread, I should divulge my picks. Shacleton is also one of my all time favorites, but I don't think of him so much in a climbing sense.
Clyde
Croft
Harding
Bridwell
Dinini
Messner
Simpson
Scott
Chounaird
Frost
Thanks for asking
Cracko
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Aug 25, 2006 - 02:09pm PT
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Cracko-
No current young guns? I'd have to put a vote in for Tommy Caldwell. On top of the fact that he just crushed it on El Cap last fall, the dude has also literally fought terrorists!. It doesn't get brought up that often, and I imagine that it is something that he and all involved would like to forget, but (correct me if I'm wrong), after being held captive in Kyrgistan (sp?) and not eating for several days, Tommy killed a one of the kidnappers/terrorists/rebels/whatever by yanking him over a cliff, saving the lives of his entire party, including his now-wife Beth. And I think he was only about 22 at the time.
Oh, and he also cut his index finger off and then climbed .14d (.15a?) sport, freed-in-a-day one of the world's most coveted projects for only the second time ever, and somewhere in there bagged himself a smoking hot wife. Its like Lynn Hill and Jack Bauer had a secret love-child or something.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Aug 25, 2006 - 02:23pm PT
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Werner Braun, John Bachar, Mike Schaeffer, Rob Miller, Alex Honold, Jens Holsten, Thad Friday, Ben Harnden, Thomasina Pidgeon, Billy Smallen... maybe Lucho if I knew he wasn't gonna read this.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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Burns,
Damit! Every time I make a list I get in trouble on this site.
I'm showing my age, but I think that the old schoolers listed had to break through barriers that the new age doesn't have to deal with. However, I can't argue with Caldwell.
Cracko
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Aug 25, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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No worries Cracko, I meant no disrespect to you, your list, or anyone on it. I happen to be about Tommy's age, so I guess its a little harder for me to speak of those old school hardmen with any confidence that I have a flippin clue what I'm actually talking about (not that having a clue what you're talking about is a prerequisite for posting on the taco, but hey...). I had honestly forgotten about the Kyrgistan incident until just today and I realized how a lot of the climbers that we have all been talking about have shown mental toughness in situations that they essentially put themselves in, and to some extent they were in their element. A rebel with an AK is about as far from climbing cracks in estes park as you can get.
You certainly make a good point though about breaking through barriers. I mean, Tommy got all kinds of press for the Nose, but he wasn't even the first to do it. My generation has missed to some extent the 'Golden Age', especially in Yosemite. Thats not to say that modern climbers lack mental toughness, it is simply that they don't have to rely on it as often as the old-school guys. I think guys and gals like Tommy (and there are certainly a couple out there) could have hung with the toughest of the tough of the earlier generations.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 25, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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Shite,
In just 24 more years I'll be 70.
All generations have the tuff ones.
It is always intersting to see who keeeps on keepin' on.
Donini is made of steel.
Lynn Hill, who I've known since we were both 16, ain't no slouch.
Gullich was tuff, soft spoken and real nice, very much like Croft.
I met that guy Renan Otzurk, he seems pretty cool, and tuff too.
I saw Tommy Caldwell, here at a gym in Boulder 15 years back, stab up some wicked 5.13 when he was still too small for his ears and he made it look no more difficult than a kitten lapping up milk.
Great thread.
Cheers,
Roy
(Locker style Edit, with a twist of Fish 'Tude):
From "My" G-G-Generation,
Cripes,
Gotta go with those bad ass bastahds,
Jay Smith, Mark Wilford, Charlie Fowler, Greg Child:
All have booted up some serious de rigeur alpinista terrain and still put out on rock.
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 25, 2006 - 09:19pm PT
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(not that having a clue what you're talking about is a prerequisite for posting on the taco, but hey...).
Hey... I resemble that remark!!
BB
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 26, 2006 - 01:13am PT
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That's beyond: mentally tough, hardcore, or badass.
It is just too real.
Sounds like active duty.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:50am PT
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24 years of it! Now I relax my mind by climbing A4+, WI6+ and sometimes "Solo", all that good stuff that most deem "Tough".
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 10:15am PT
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Ditto Tar's statement. While I may not support our president, I do respect his position and the men and women (and their families) who work for him (and us). My father and both grandfathers lived through similar scenarios in different conflicts; all of our lives were profoundly affected as a direct result(how could they not be?!) Sorry, Cracko, but when put in those terms, the climbing related side of this discussion seems a bit mundane... I'm not saying that it doesn't take a huge amount of mental toughness to carry on through dificult times in climbing related scenarios, It certainly does, but... well... Cue real life. Thanks, Ultra, for putting things back into their proper perspective (for me, anyway). Unfortunately, how many of us can truly afford to not note real life? I know I can't, and I know that all too often (for me anyway, and I am the only person for whom I may speak), climbing must take a back seat and is often my relaxation technique of choice...
BB
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BPorter
Big Wall climber
Quartz Hill, Ca
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:15am PT
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"Sorry, Cracko, but when put in those terms, the climbing related side of this discussion seems a bit mundane..."
Agreed !! Real life situations is where you find the real mentally tough!! In fact, climbing often serves as a respite from the stress created from real life situations. Still, it is fun to discuss those who have this special attribute in climbing that results in them pulling through where most others head for the ground.
Cracko
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:29am PT
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Hey, are Ultrabiker and PDH Man one and the same?
(ok, duh, just looked at the email tag. the similarities...)
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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Aug 26, 2006 - 04:05pm PT
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OK Mental Toughness.........
Walter Bone-at-tee
Herman Buuhl
I met Mugs once, he looked pretty tough!
My absolute 'mental toughness' icon/guru - Dennis (who?) our old rescue dog, he's over 18, had 3 serious strokes in the last 4 years, this little f*#ker just re-wires his brain after each one, takes him a couple of days of staggering round in circles after each attack. He's there at every chow time like clockwork. Drop some food on the kitchen floor, man you never seen an old dog move so fast! Peripheral vision in one eye, tunnel vision in the other, we take him to the vet, they bump him up to the front of the queue and he takes that walk, every dog shuts the f*#k up as he strolls past. I'm having him stuffed when he dies, just so I never, ever forget how hard I should be!
-john
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
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Day 4 of "HELL WEEK", Class 132...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 26, 2006 - 08:59pm PT
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How many of those in the picture could we still have a beer with?
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:03pm PT
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This one gave me 36 stitches after ripping out my Gall Bladder, one foot of my Lower Intestines and two weeks in ICU...
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:09pm PT
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Only 26 of us graduated of a class that began with 135. All, gratefully, are still walking and and have become a very productive part of society.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:11pm PT
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Internal injuries sustained
From G Force,
Deceleration?
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:14pm PT
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Negative. I was the Flight Deck CRASH LPO on the "65" Boat(USS Enterprise) and got nailed by a 7" X 6" piece of titanium shrapnel that seperated when this VF-1 "Turkey's" (A/C #121) stbd mainmount exploded on impact after trapping.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:23pm PT
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My first El Cap partner, Ed Kaufer -Nose '79, kept his wings about 10 years,
"Dropped a lot 'a bombs into the Desert Storm", in his words.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:24pm PT
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What Squadron?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:28pm PT
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I'd have to ask,
'Just got back in touch with him recently here via super taco,
Plan to see him this winter.
'Dude never lay's down much jive, if any.
Says he "hauls stiffs around now, Powell jargon for commercial work"
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:28pm PT
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Here is a hearty pic of me when I volunteered for six months duty as a "Combat SAR Crewchief" in Somolia, 93'...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:33pm PT
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Proud.
Thanks for the output.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:36pm PT
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In the 24 years I did in the NAV, I did and saw soooooo many things that not 1% of the American population ever had a clue about. Every day was a "Combat" environment and entailed 24 hours of always keeping the thought in the back of my mind, if this was my last day on this planet. Loved every second, minute and day that I experienced in all those years. I am so grateful for all that I was allowed to endure, good or bad, all of it! Made me the man of honor that I enjoy at this moment. Even when I clipped those nice bolts this morning at "Al's Garage"!
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:37pm PT
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Ultrabiker
You one bad boy there ..........
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:46pm PT
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Nah, just happy and having a blast. If you all only knew how much fun it all was. Even on those sh*t awful scary, getting shot at and hardass long days/nights in the middle of nowhere, they were all fun. The thing I miss the most is the comaraderie and knowing that I always had someone covering my six and I there's! Don't see much of any of that out here in the civilian sector. Seems everyone out here is just out for themselves. Just my observations and opininion. Maybe that is why I just climb these days and only do part-time wrenching on bicycles. Maybe that is why I live here just north of Tom's Place in a tight little community where everyone knows everyone and we care for one another and would drop everything to help eachother at a moments calling.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:48pm PT
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Sometimes Bad Boys Put Out.
Stay frosty Ultra B.
You got a point there about the tight watch and glue of a cadre.
A thread in itself, if you tapped the right people,
then again -ain't much to discuss because you either get it or you don't.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 09:58pm PT
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These days find me FAing new obscure routes at 12,400'....
3P's @ 5.10d, 5.11a and 5.10c Alpine Trad....
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 10:13pm PT
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Is that you on the right?
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 10:22pm PT
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Yup...
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 10:34pm PT
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So if I ever see you, I'll sneak up on yah and give you a karate chop just to see if you're still alert.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 10:45pm PT
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That's an oxymoran isn't Werner...."Sneak up, Karate Chop and see if you are still alert?" If you do get close enough to even attemp the chop, I will have failed and you will have succeeded, eh? No need for the chop. But, yeah, don't bother me none. Besides, I can't hear shet these days and you could be fart'n all the way up to my neck and I wouldn't hear ya. VA gives me 10% of the 60% combat disability for that alone. It's so bad, tenitus, that hearings aids won't do jackshet for me. I hear five different sets of ringing and bells from all the years of weapons and jet noise...ha?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 10:49pm PT
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Just kidding with yah man.
Sorry about the ears, I'm in the same boat there. I have a digital hearing aid but it doesn't do much. I'm still a dumb deaf idiot.
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 10:49pm PT
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I'd have to bet money that you'd notice if he was fartin' all the way up your neck...
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 10:59pm PT
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Depends on the wind direction. These days, I have the wind to my face as I am always "into the wind" and have been. So, that aspect would screw me also. It's all good as I need not worry about that anymore. Thank God I retired when I did, seven years ago. It's nice and peaceful that way. Can't move with or sense things as I did, ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty five and thirty or so years ago.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:02pm PT
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Retired?
No way man, I know it's still in your heart!
You are a warrior ........... kshatriya
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:10pm PT
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hehe!!
Every cloud certainly does have a silver lining, doesn't it?! Kind of a fun little challenge to find them, ya know?
I'm with both of you gentlemen re: the hearing (or lack thereof); got one ear but the other's shot. I just smile and nod a lot!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:13pm PT
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Ever have people asking you questions while you're still nodding.
Hehehe, a dead give away that we're not really hearing :-)
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:14pm PT
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I don't have that problem. I just look or stare at their lips and try to figure out WTF they are trying to tell me. Then, the proverbial, "HA"?
Shambhala...
"Nowness: We need to find the link between our traditions and our present life. Nowness, or the magic of the present moment, is what joins the wisdom of the past with all that is present."
This has allowed me to overcome my arrogance and sadness of some of my past and allows me to muster up some sort of peace in my present. I need to allow the past to be just that and allow the present to be as it is and not as I perceive or wish it to be. If I practice this, I achieve some sort of peace in my heart. And that, is my primary mission these days.
That is my current quest for mental toughness....
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:25pm PT
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Kshatriyas were very highly qualified men. They were not only good warriors and courageous and generous, but they were also rishis, or sages.
Peace brother .........
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:32pm PT
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Ever have people asking you questions while you're still nodding.
Boy do I!!! It's kind of gotten me into some interesting situations along the way... Long ago I learned the whole lip reading thing (still often wonder WTF they're saying, though, especially when it's a group setting and there's background noise of any type...!! I've also learned over the years to simply position myself so that the conversation is on my "good" side...
Hehehe, a dead give away that we're not really hearing :-)[i/]
Yup; oddly enough, though, very few folks actually pick up on that little fact... Only a few times has someone pegged what's going on.
Shambhala...
"Nowness: We need to find the link between our traditions and our present life. Nowness, or the magic of the present moment, is what joins the wisdom of the past with all that is present."
This has allowed me to overcome my arrogance and sadness of some of my past and allows me to muster up some sort of peace in my present. I need to allow the past to be just that and allow the present to be as it is and not as I perceive or wish it to be. If I practice this, I achieve some sort of peace in my heart. And that, is my primary mission these days.
That is my current quest for mental toughness....
As it is mine, also... Living in the present and allowing the past to be the past has potential to be quite difficult; however, it is quite the rewarding endeavour (check my spelling onthat... it's late here and the brain's not quite all there...)
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
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Blackbird
Yes lip reading is the trick, I've been doing it for 50 years, and it's natural for me.
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:47pm PT
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You've got 25 years on me... You'd think I'd be better at it than I am after this long! Oh, some of the gaffes I've made over the years as a result!! Of course, there is the ability to (legitimately?!) play dumb when the need arises... and then there's the selective hearing... Oh, but that gives away all the secrets, doesn't it?! I'll stop before I spill the beans any more and ruin it for all of us out there!!
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 26, 2006 - 11:54pm PT
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Good or bad, they are all experiences in life. And for that, I am so grateful to be one of oh so few that has been allowed to live such a rich life of experiences. If I were to "Move on" tonight in my sleep, I would be so grateful for all that I have been blessed to live through. I am the richest dude on the planet these days. I have no place to bitch about anything.
Be good gents... till tomorrow if I am allowed to live another day, eh?
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blackbird
Trad climber
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Aug 27, 2006 - 12:13am PT
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Honestly, UB, none of us have anything to fuss about...
Cheers, all. I'm off to sleep so I can go play with my gear tomorrow!
BB
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 27, 2006 - 12:54am PT
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best little conversation i've been privy too for some time.
it's all about opportunity and what we bring to it.
this is good livin',
cheers,
roy.
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Conrad
climber
MT
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Aug 28, 2006 - 08:51am PT
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With humans wandering this planet for thousands of years there are probably many stories that required a fair amount of suffering, hence mental toughness to endure. Think of the Polynesians sailing across the South Pacific or North East Asians sailing / paddling / walking across to what is now Alaska.
In recent 20th century history a few epics come to mind, in addition to the venerable Shackelton story. In the Antarctic, Douglas Mawson gets left behind, on the continent, afer a failed expedition to winter over. He lives off of his dogs and nearly dies of Vitamin A poisoning from the dog liver he ate. Check out 'Mawson's Will" by Lennard Bickel.
Also in Antarctica Apsely Cherry-Garrard and three budies leave the comfort of camp in 1914 to walk 60 miles to a penguin colony (in winter) so that they may observes the animals and conduct science. With in the gist of this thread everything goes bad. They suffer a cold miserable existence.
For the Polish standard (known for a high level of mental toughness) Slavomir Rawicz in the "The Long Walk" recounts escaping a Soviet gulag in WWII to hike to India and eventual freedom. No supermarkets or mid route caches.
In the theme of land walks around the time WWII Heinrich Harrer and his escape from Britsh India to Lhasa is rather remarkable. I doubt one could get this lost in current times - too many people and borders.
A recent entry is "The Life of Pi" - a story of a young man lost at sea in a life boat with a tiger. They co-exist (predator and prey), encounter a floating island of venus fly trap type of trees and eventually make landfall in Central America. Makes not getting cell reception seem trivial.
On a more climbing related theme mental toughness training comes to mind. The late Mugs Stump played football at PennState under the tutelage of Joe Paterno. He was all into training of the mind. One example was to drive from SLC to Yosemite with out talking. 18 hours of silence. It "sounds" easy yet by Reno one realizes how much idle chatter fills our lives.
Ok - time to get the groms off to the first day of school.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Aug 28, 2006 - 09:34am PT
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When sports announcers talk about mental toughness with respect to MJ and Tiger, they are not talking about the ability to endure pain. They are talking about the ability to focus and stay in the present. To find a way to win, when their A-game is not there.
For example, Tiger averages one stroke per round better than all but 5 guys on the PGA tour. In 2000, there might have been only one within one stroke per round on average. That means, that "on average" he will beat them all by about over 4 strokes per tournament which is a pretty big margin. He has a higher winning percentage over his professional career by far than anybody who ever played, yet he has won just 26% of all of the events he has entered. But every time he enters a tournament there are 125 guys who could beat him, if they get there at the right point, on a streak of 3 or 4 really top days. (On a typical day, 5-10 of them will beat him.) Tiger has been "beaten" about 140 times, and won 52 times. What makes Tiger mentally tough is to manage to come to the course with a game plan that is best suited to his game and stick to it. He is prepared to win, not just with his best game, but even with his slightly above average game. He is able to forget history, his last shot, and focus on what he needs to do with his next shot. Finally, he is able to reinvent his game - to raise it to a new level - as the rest of the tour strives to improve to his.
Ultrabiker - Learn from cattle. Face downwind and your sense of smell and vision will complement each other. :-)
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 28, 2006 - 10:05am PT
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BAH BAH BAH... Sheep and Cattle get eaten and are dominated. Wolverines run and frolic into the wind and storm without fear and nothing dares mess with them!
CONRAD:
Let's not forget the great Shackleton and his amazing journey of survival and leadership.
Or, Wilfred Theisger, one of the greatest explorer's of all time! Now there's a whole thread of it's own!
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Aug 28, 2006 - 07:37pm PT
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Ultrabiker-
My Big Bro was a bit before you in Class 98.
He was a plank owner at 'SIX'... not that he'd call it that.
Maybe you had an Instructor Fay down at Coronado.
Thanks for your service. Glad you had a good time ;-}.
I took a couple guys from 'One' up on Tahquitz for their first climbing.
Another day at the office for them.
Both followed up 5.9 on their first day and got up onto, and past the
real horn on Traitor Horn with out issue. (Been there ?)
Good guys. Well trained minds.
Beauty rock on your route.
Any clues on its location ?
Fair Winds & Following Seas
Bart
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goatboy smellz
climber
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Feb 15, 2007 - 12:50am PT
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Got caught in a slide the other day on a route in the trees I've done a hundred times before.
Complacency will kick your ass.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
gone 'til november
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Feb 15, 2007 - 03:36am PT
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yea, toughness doesn't count if you put yourself into the situation voluntarily!!!
it's only true toughness if you had no control over whether or not you were in the situation in the first place.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 25, 2017 - 11:41am PT
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Soo, who in the climbing world stands out in you mind that possesses Mental Toughness.
Uh, Alex Honnold?
yea, toughness doesn't count if you put yourself into the situation voluntarily!!!
Really? lol
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 25, 2017 - 01:29pm PT
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Does it need to be someone who has survived, who has been successful time after time, or might it be someone who fell to their death the first time they tried to solo butterballs?
IMHO, what our survivor biased belief processes tell us maybe is that Honnold tops the list of mental toughness, when there might have been many other folks who just didn't survive their mental toughness quite so well, so we're unaware of their mental toughness.
If you're a warrior who chooses to go into battle, and you fight and you fight against overwhelming odds, and end up falling in battle, are you less mentally tough than the warrior who survived, maybe against less overwhelming odds? Maybe a climber who was less athletically gifted, but had more confidence in their abilities and resilience and willingness to act according to their own self-perceived abilities?
We take the information that survives into our belief processes and then conclude that we know the answer from our survival biased information, and aren't we just so clever to have been survival-biased by that information and to have derived such a logically and truthfully correct belief?
We're humans. Our logically laughable belief processes are just evidence of the magnificence of our human achievements. At least to humans and our logically laughable belief processes they are. :-) We rule the universe in our own minds.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Jun 25, 2017 - 04:15pm PT
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Todd explained it well. "I have watched climbers bitch about a two hour descent in Yosemite, and watched my uncle Courtney sit in the open at 40 below all night and not bat an eye."
Not only has the Skinner clan had passes and lakes named for them, Courtney has a whole Mountain range! Proud to call them all friends and tougher than me!
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jun 25, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
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From the British Library-
Captain Scott (1868–1912), is perhaps the most famous Arctic explorer in British history. He was the leader of the failed 1912 South Pole expedition, and has become legendary both for his heroic endurance and sense of commitment. After a gruelling journey, Scott’s team arrived to find they had been beaten by the Norwegian team. The remainder of the British team would all die on their return journey due to short supplies of food, appalling weather conditions and sickness.
This is Scott’s final journal entry, from 27 March 1912, the day he and his remaining companions died. (Scott’s colleague Oates had already sacrificed himself, exiting the tent with the now famous words, ‘I am just going outside and may be some time’.) Given the treacherous conditions, the very fact that he could pick up a pen to write this journal is incredible. The painfully scrawled final words read ‘For God’s sake look after our people’. Celebrated after his death, Scott was later criticised by some for making bad decisions, such as refusing to eat the expedition dogs when supplies ran out.
Captain Scott's Diary, last entry:
We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course and the end cannot be far. It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. For God's sake, look after our people.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 25, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
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Hard to beat Shackleton after the loss of Endurance. Living on pack ice. Hundreds to miles of navigation in open boats and did not lose a man.
Can you imagine trying to keep the morale of the crew going?
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jun 25, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
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Marko Prezelj comes to mind as a mentally tough dude . . . good to see this thread rise from the ashes.
Hazel Findlay and Mike Libecki deserve honorable mentions.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 25, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
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You want mental toughness? Cornish hard rock miners in the 18th and 19th centuries dug
adits out beneath the sea floor to mine copper and tin. They spent an hour and a half climbing
1800' down wooden ladders, for which they were not paid, to get to the tunnels where they
worked 6 hours before spending two more hours climbing back up the ladders. They had an
average life expectancy of 24 years.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 25, 2017 - 06:32pm PT
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Well I don't know anything about toughness, but my neighbor was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer (not much life expectancy) and as an effect of the cancer suffered numerous strokes which have for all intents and purposes left him blind.
He remains unbelievably upbeat despite being in so much pain that they've put him on methadone.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 25, 2017 - 06:45pm PT
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Mental Toughness is an inherent property of every living entity when it digs deep into their soul .......
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 25, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
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The real life Hacksaw Ridge guy.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 25, 2017 - 09:25pm PT
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Shackleton is the gold standard it seems.
But, then a lot of people impress me with how tough they are cuz they all seem tougher than me.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jun 26, 2017 - 07:47am PT
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I'm not going to give it to the Alpinists just because of high risks/bold death/continuous sufferfests just by default...
I vote Tommy Caldwell working insanely hard for so many years with whoever he could on incredibly sustained climbing on El Cap. He's the ultramarathon champ of climbing for his abilities and achievements all around.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jun 26, 2017 - 10:21am PT
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Interesting to read Ultrabiker's posts, which appear to be early posts from The Chief . Seems that mental toughness in battle does not necessarily equate to the same, when it comes to posting on online forums. Or maybe the later online behaviour relates to PTSD, which is what The Chief kept mentioning he was dealing with.
This has me wondering how mental toughness relates to keeping one's mind together, and how some people end up with PTSD, and others may not experience similar events traumatically.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 26, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
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Shakelton took Tom Crean with him in the James Caird because he said Crean was "indestructible"
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jun 26, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
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My vote is for women giving birth to babies :-)
Second that
In the old days up in Alaska a family unit would travel hundreds of miles across the artic, women would regularly have babies in route and be expected to keep it going as the family traveled to the next camp. Now adventure travelers cover some of these same routes and will blog about how tough they are.
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