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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 3, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
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...where were you?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May they rest in peace. . .
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Probably bouldering at Horsetooth Reservoir in Colorado.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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OK, I'll be the first to admit it…I had to look it up on Wikipedia.
Vaguely heard of it over the years but thought it was "just another school shooting" as opposed to National Guard (?!?!!).
Yes, before I was born…and I'm not exactly a youngster (I'd probably be a new grandfather in small town Utah…).
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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On a different note, May 4th, 2014 I'm getting married.
I suppose there's a first time for everything you do. Tomorrow will be one for me!
1970, I was 12. In the US, you're green behind the ears at that age (or, at least I was). Not so much in countries riddled by war.
Peace to you all.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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congrats k-man!
I was a sophomore at Claremont High School... it was a pretty terrible day, then 10 days later 2 students were shot and killed at a war protest at Jackson State University by the police.
Sad times.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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I was in Lemoore, CA 332 days old. Soon to move back to the flatlands.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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I was a 7th grader at Kings Canyon Junior High on Tulare Street in Fresno busily gearing up for the Sierra summer – which included an early season trip to East Lake and Lake Reflection. Summer accents with Tehipite Chapter may have included Conness, Dana and Banner. That’s about when I rode my Schwinn 10 speed down to Alpine Sports on Blackstone to buy my North Face Superlight for $77 with money I earned delivering the Fresno Bee all winter. I was aware of the conflict and the incident, but pretty out-of-touch. Not much has probably changed there . . .
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Read a bit about this, still a mystery and no answers as to why the Guard did what it did. There was no risk to the Guardsmen, yet the soldiers were clearly ordered to turn and confront the protestors. But no one in the rank and file or in command was prosecuted and although someone had to know why/how, nobody would or could confess.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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I was in a Vietnam clinic, after nearly getting blown away on May 3rd. There was a sapper attack at around mid-night and a bag of explosives, loaded with shrapnel landed at my feet. I got about 6 feet away before it detonated. Spent from May to Sept. recovering Stateside.
I was due to leave Vietnam the next morning, but the injury extended my stay in the Army till October. I still feel we made a big mistake in entering that conflict; as well as every war afterwards.
Don't bother to thank me for my service, as the war was NOT justifiable.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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I was moving across country with my family from D.C. back to San Diego, just about to become a 7th grader. Being part of a military family, my default response was to assume the protestors were just a bunch of lazy, long-haired radicals who probably brought it on themselves. At the same time, there was something really unsettling about students being fired on in such an asymmetrical way. It was one of the first of many protests that began dislodging me from just blindly accepting a party line. I seem to remember that My Lai had surfaced not long before that, and these things were game-changers for a lot of people.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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I was probably watching the snow melt in Bethel, AK.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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I was a Junior at UCONN and having my best semester ever. The Student Strike kicked in, we all got an "S" or something for grades, it hurt me going into Grad School some years later, after the Army.
Since there were no classes, we had nothing to do but trouble for a couple of weeks until school let out. So we took over the ROTC Hanger, and painted it into a Day Care Center.
I graduated the next year and got drafted. The machine pretty much always wins.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I was only 12 at the time and gowing up in N. Idaho.
My dad was a prof. at Kent State in the 1950s and my mother a student. In another reality I would have grown up there.
Dad had many friends there, one of whom put his future on the line in expressing outrage. It was a dark time for this country.
Today however, thanks to freedom of the press, every single purp in this incident would be outed and pilloried as a tabloid spectacle. (Like the pepper spray guy a couple years ago.)
Civilized people don't shoot live ammo into unarmed crowds.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Hey K-Man, Congratulations you old dog.
I got suspended from school for organizing a "Sit Down" protest about the slaughter at Kent State.
"Tin soldiers and Nixon coming".
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2014 - 11:06am PT
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I was 18 living at home going to Pasadena City College with a 2-S deferment that kept me from being drafted. Ron A. is correct it wasn't cut and dry in 1970, there was still a lot of support for the war. Nixon was in his second year as president and would be reelected in 1972.
The returning war veterans along with students who voiced opposition were still being branded as traitors by a generation that fought in WWII and their children who had yet to learn how to think for themselves. It was a dark time, lots of anger and fear. The only thing that made any sense to me was to go climbing!!!
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markf
Trad climber
Frisco, CO
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I was 13 and going to school on a US military base in Germany. I was aware enough of world events to understand that the US had made a horrible mistake in getting involved in Vietnam, which was not necessarily a popular view to hold in that setting. Some of the comments I heard from military community about the Kent State shootings and the anti-war movement in general back then were pretty sickening, to say the least.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2014 - 11:40am PT
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At least now we have a name for it. It's called Groupthink, recognizing when it's occurring is a problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
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It wasnt a cut and dried issue back then, as i remember. It wasn't then and never will be. I had a brother that never came home from Nam. He, and all the others, should have come home, or better yet never have been deployed. The four Kent State students, and the two Jackson State students should have gone on to graduate.
It was a tragedy. My Dad's war I understood. I've not understood any war since then. Eisenhower had it right.
Susan
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WBraun
climber
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There is no noble war.
Then why are you at war ......
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Thanks, Ed, for commenting on those lost at Jackson State.
Nobody ever remembers those students. . .
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WBraun
climber
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Randisi
When you stop attempting nihilistic or dualistic interpretations then you'll find the answer.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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I was 13 and in the 8th grade but I am having trouble recalling where we lived then. I started 8th grade in a two room school in Clarkia Idaho but finished in Pasco Washington. We moved two to four times a tear so I have trouble recalling where we were when. The pictures are ingrained in my mind. Especially the one of Jeffrey Miller bleeding out. They say he died instantly but I've done enough hunting to know that his heart was beating. A body doesn't bleed much unless the heart is beating.
We had a neighbor in Pasco just back from Viet Nam. He pretty much stayed in a small camper trailer in his parent's yard playing a drum set except to occasionally blow into very scary rages that involved weapons. I recall him poking a big knife out through the walls of the trailer. We were scared of him but he would come down to the river and give us pot.
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Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
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I was living in a log cabin up past Brainard Lake. No electric, no phone, no running water, no clock, no radio, no TV.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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I was only 9 years old in May 1970. I grew up in Texas and was a little red around the neck. My parents were actually very progressive but we never discussed politics. I worked for two years in a machine shop before I graduated from high school. To say I was in a conservative environment would be an understatement. In my teens I thought I wanted to go off to Vietnam. I graduated in 1978 and joined the Marine Corps. Stationed for a year in Colorado and 2 years in California broadened my perspective, a lot.
Ironically there are wackjobs today who claim we are under the thumb of an oppressive Nazi/Fascist like government. Looking back to the Kent State tragedy I think we can say great progress has been made. Jeffrey Glenn Miller, Allison B. Krause, William Knox Schroeder and Sandra Lee Scheuer did not die in vain.
My favorite tribute to the Kent State victims was written by Holly Near, an amazing woman who continues to fight for ALL of our rights.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
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Many people didn't understand that war either.
There is no noble war.
Understanding does not imply noble.
Susan
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Hey Philo, I was suspended too. I was a sophomore at Golden High School (16 yrs old) and all of the "Heads" (of which were my new found kindred spirits) wore black armbands. They suspended us and contacted our parents, my dad promptly took away my driving privileges.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Forty five years.
It seems like yesterday.
I still remember hearing about it on a crackly am radio station as I was studying for finals.
Tens of thousands of us were in Washington within days with National Guard on the roof tops with guns.
A profound loss of innocence.
Susan
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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My mom graduated high school in 1968 and I was born in 1973. Somewhere around junior high I became a fan of Crosby Stills and Nash from listening to my mom's records. Kent State was firmly lodged into my consciousness through the horror in my mom's face, the raw emotion in her voice, when she described those times to me, explaining what the song meant.
I wasn't alive for the craziness of the times, but I witnessed the aftermath of Viet Nam with the homeless men, the drunken men, the broken men, the men trying to hold it together, in the small beachtown where I grew up. My mom had a bakery next to the beach, and I was often wandering the beachfront at 6am, and some of these men passed out in their cars became my friends. All of them were our customers. One of them was a sort of father figure for me and I spent a lot of time with him over the next few years. Such a mix of emotions, a real heart of gold and so many demons and anger boiling beneath the surface. It's amazing how 30-35 years later I can still see them clearly in my mind. Somehow I've managed to remain insulated from the desert wars, being too old to have friends there and too young to have children there, but Viet Nam has a more visceral impact for me, perhaps because I connect it with the echoes in the faces and expressions of those men from my childhood. I don't know what they saw or did but I'm thankful that I have been spared.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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I was at UCONN, pulling pretty near a 4.0, so I could graduate. I was at the bottom, having flunked about 18 credits.
The students nationally, went on strike. UCONN, gave every one a "Pass" so no grades, no gpa boost, and I graduated last person. Then I got drafted into the Army. It was a bad scene.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Freshman, Grant high school, Portland OR.
Confirmed and deepened my alienation from the US ruling class. Cynicism continues to this day.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, ... i didn't graduation unti 1971, so this must have been near the end of my junior highschool year...
but i only remember bits and pieces of any/all news stories...
i do remember the name of nixon, though, being in the news...
i just was too engrossed with just trying to learn, school stuff that everything else, sadly, never registered into things to pursue reading about etc... :(
i DO remember hearing many war protest, though, as, many friends talked and shared ... i heard the name of this, as a 'situation' that happened, but never heard what REALLY happened, until i was out of school, years, later, :)
EDIT:
2015, anniversary...
http://www.wtam.com/articles/wtam-local-news-122520/kent-state-university-marks-shooting-anniversary-13557022/
say, i just was reading more on this...
and found this link...
not sure if it is important for anyone to read, but HERE IT IS:
sad state of 'business' that was nearly done, oh my:
http://cindysheehanssoapbox.com/11/post/2014/09/sister-of-slain-kent-state-protestor-issues-statement-to-urban-outfitters-blood-spattered-sweatshirt-stunt.html
good that the sister CAME TO FIND OUT, about this situation...
https://mendocoastcurrent.wordpress.com/2014/09/22/sister-of-slain-kent-state-protestor-issues-statement-responding-to-urban-outfitters-blood-spattered-sweatshirt-stunt/
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Flip Flop
climber
salad bowl, california
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SteveA writes:
May 4, 2014 - 07:27am PT
I was in a Vietnam clinic, after nearly getting blown away on May 3rd. There was a sapper attack at around mid-night and a bag of explosives, loaded with shrapnel landed at my feet. I got about 6 feet away before it detonated. Spent from May to Sept. recovering Stateside.
I was due to leave Vietnam the next morning, but the injury extended my stay in the Army till October. I still feel we made a big mistake in entering that conflict; as well as every war afterwards.
Don't bother to thank me for my service, as the war was NOT justifiable.
Gulp. Wow Steve. I won't do you the disservice of thanking you for your Service in Vietnam but I would like to apologize for US as a country. I will thank you for your post and for speaking your truth. It's more than we deserve. I was only a baby then. I'm glad that you lived.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I was in eight grade then and couldn't understand it then any more than I do now. Though sadly it's made so many simlar subsequent events less unexpected.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Never Forget.
Susan
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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I wasn't very political at the time.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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One of my fellow eight graders said, " Yeah what would you do if all those hippy freaks were coming at you and you had a gun?
Then he went on to say that I, was the one with a biased viewpoint...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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I was about to graduate from high school.
A very sad day, followed by the Jackson State shootings on May 15 of that
year. Such tragedy.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Laguna
UCI
Grad school
Left UCB with James Rector dead
Complex issue here
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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My friend and I were climbing this past weekend and this came up. We talked. He was there that day and every year since. Strong stuff that should not be forgotten...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, todd eastman...
oh my... thank you for sharing...
see--it was meant to be, for you and friend to climb, and talk about this...
thanks for sharing...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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I was studying on how to get to Yosemite Valley for a season while killing time at Monterey College. Mathis had left Apathy House to go there and take up life in Camp 4, while Larry Jones and I moved out of Apathy in mid-April for other, separate digs.
He moved out to Seaside, but I moved in with two brothers from Merced who had room in their place on the couch, then I moved into brother Don's place. Both couches were still in Pacific Grove, thank God, because I hated Seaside.
All this time Jones and I were involved in a "committee" at the college run by agents of the SDS to stage a rally with bands and speakers to protest the US forces move into Cambodia with a petition. When we weren't collecting signatures we were trying to get to class. Busy-busy-busy.
A less-than-ideal situation, living with others you didn't trust that much and trying to keep from flunking out, but one I managed to escape later in the summer. Thus began my n00b season in Camp 4.
That fall Mathis and I put up our infamous route, Tricky Dick in the Castle Crags, home of some of Yosemite's worst choss.
We say never forget, but has that helped in the intervening years since the invasion?
HELL NO, IT DON'T SHOW!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Climbing in the Valley.
I recall that non-climbing friends of mine, when I saw them, seemed to know what was going on in the news while I rarely did--no radios, no TV, no newspapers (at least I didn't read them). Growing up in the SF Bay Area and attending Vietnam war protests, I was very aware of the range of responses of the police. The SF police were incited to riot against student protestors by the president of SF State University. The previous year, the police fired buckshot into protesters in Berkeley at People's Park. Kent State just brought police violence to the Midwest. What happened at Kent State still happens with our police, in Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore, NY City.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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What happened at Kent State still happens with our police, in Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore, NY City.
In some ways yes, other ways, not so. The National Guard was primarily young kids, basically untrained, some clueless. The police today are highly trained. I'm not sure which is scarier.
Susan
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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...where were you?
1st grade in Chicago, but we knew about this.
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Adventurer
Mountain climber
Virginia
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"Where were you"
I was in the Army and due to come home on leave the following month. After hearing about this tragedy, a buddy of mine wisely suggested that I avoid wearing my uniform in the U.S. He wasn't joking when he said that it was probably safer to walk down a street in Saigon with an Army uniform than it would be to do it in NYC. We were both 19 at the time.
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clode
Trad climber
portland, or
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Freshman at Madison High School, Portland, OR. When I watched the evening news coverage with my parents, I thought it was horrible. My right-wing, farmer-bred mother said something like "they deserved it" for being so anti-establishment. I still thought it was horrible and unjustified. My senior year was the last year of the Vietnam draft. My number never got picked, I got lucky. That probably saved my life, as I now know it.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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He wasn't joking when he said that it was probably safer to walk down a street in Saigon with an Army uniform than it would be to do it in NYC. We were both 19 at the time.
I wonder how many people are aware there was a time like this? I got out, got spat on, became super depressed and went home and burnt all of my Army pix. But fuq it, I was happy to be alive.
But on May 4th, 1970, I still hadn't been drafted. I was in college. We went on strike. Crazy days.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
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"they deserved it"
The country in 1970 had not yet tipped against our involvement in Vietnam, back then the vast majority of Americans supported the war effort. I was a freshman in college wanting to believe it was right but knowing in my heart things were terribly wrong. It was the veterans returning and relating just how much misinformation was being fed to the public that I believe finally tipped the country, it certainly effected me.
It was maybe a year later the iconic photo below of the children appeared on the front page of every newspaper in America. A huge shouting argument broke out in my household at dinner that evening with my parents. I'm sure our home wasn't the only one being torn apart, it was a hard time. My brother was in Vietnam and I think we all wanted something to be right about it for the sake of him, those with him, those who had already lost their lives and those whose lives would never be the same.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I was 20 yrs. old, in college, and looking forward to spending the summer in Tuolumne. I changed my draft status from student deferment to 1-A eligible, a couple of days prior to New Year's Day. There was a technicality in the law saying that I would only be draft eligible for three months, and they already said they would not draft anyone during that period.
Anthony Herbert was one of America's most decorated soldiers in the Korean War, but turned whistle-blower in Vietnam. Documents released under the "Freedom of Information Act" show that the Pentagon made PR efforts to discredit him, while privately acknowledging that most of what he said was true.
He told of a case of about ten U.S. Soldiers who took a 12 yr. old Vietnamese girl from her family "for questioning". They raped, beat and sodomized her, and returned her to her family. Shortly thereafter, she died. One man received a gentle "slap on the wrist" in a court martial hearing, and the rest went free. He also told of millions of dollars worth of U.S. equipment that was stolen, and sold to line the pockets of various people.
Soldiers, national guardsmen, police are placed in positions of power and authority; a certain minority will always abuse that. Kent State and the above incident were both examples. I can understand why it happened at Kent State, although it was a terrible crime just the same. But what the soldiers did was worse.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I was 20 yrs. old, in college, and looking forward to spending the summer in Tuolumne. I changed my draft status from student deferment to 1-A eligible, a couple of days prior to New Year's Day. There was a technicality in the law saying that I would only be draft eligible for three months, and they already said they would not draft anyone during that period.
Anthony Herbert was one of America's most decorated soldiers in the Korean War, but turned whistle-blower in Vietnam. Documents released under the "Freedom of Information Act" show that the Pentagon made PR efforts to discredit him, while privately acknowledging that most of what he said was true.
He told of a case of about ten U.S. Soldiers who took a 12 yr. old Vietnamese girl from her family "for questioning". They raped, beat and sodomized her, and returned her to her family. Shortly thereafter, she died. One man received a gentle "slap on the wrist" in a court martial hearing, and the rest went free. He also told of millions of dollars worth of U.S. equipment that was stolen, and sold to line the pockets of various people.
Soldiers, national guardsmen, police are placed in positions of power and authority; a certain minority will always abuse that. Kent State and the above incident were both examples. I can understand why it happened at Kent State, although it was a terrible crime just the same. But what the soldiers did was worse.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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^I do not know how many, but some vets refuse to acknowledge this stuff happening.
Complex issue.
McNamara himself told some that it was a righteous and necessary war.
He changed his tune later.
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why." — McNamara, writing in his 1995 memoir, In Retrospect, on the management of the Vietnam War
Yet his hair was [almost] perfect.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Bump
Susan
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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I was in the 8th grade. Couldn't believe that people supported the national guard's action. IIRC two of the kids killed were just walking to class, not protesting. (Three years later deep in the stacks at the library at the U. of Georgia I ran across a report trying to justify the shootings written by the governor of Ohio. Disgusting reading that was.)
Then Jackson State.
All this after Martin Luther King and RFK were gunned down just two years previously.
Sometimes things just suck.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Unfortunately we were fed the bs that if Vietnam fell to the communists, it would create a domino effect, and that eventually the US would be red. Hence the saying "better dead than red".
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sorry to go off topic, but...Tami, you'll like this. Baldwin makes very cogent points, Buckley responds with insults.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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ignorance combined with nationalism is nearly as prevalent today
Warbler predicts the future . . . 2017 baby!
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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One of America's most decorated soldier from the Korean War was a man named Anthony Herbert, who was also in Vietnam. He told of an incident where a dozen or so American soldiers had taken away a 12 yr. old Vietnamese girl "for questioning". They raped, sodomized and beat her so badly that, shortly after being returned to her family, she died. One soldier, according to Herbert, received "a gentle slap on the wrist" in a court martial hearing. The others went free.
He was relieved of his command for being a whistle-blower, and the Military went to some efforts to discredit him. I got the sense he was telling mostly the truth, especially about this incident.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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I was in Monterey attending classes at MPC.
You're gonna love this one...[Click to View YouTube Video]It seems the students were responsible for their own deaths and the National Guard only gave them a swat on the behind.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I was still in binary liquid form at that time.
The state has simply become more efficient at killing and better at quelling the public with bread and circus.
How many fronts is the state actively killing people on today vs. in 1970?
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Tom Patterson
Trad climber
Seattle
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It's hard to believe this happened 47 years ago. That's almost 50 years ago, and yet it is such a vivid memory for me. Some of the incredible comments made in the video that mouse from merced posted are a "good" reminder that stupidity and polarization have been around longer than Trump.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Junior in Bellevue HS.... the black armband was a very popular piece of apparel.
BHS was as divided as the country was... you had good old boys from the local town and Air-force brats... The brats were the ones offered up to fill the quota from the county. I was 1A and a perfect candidate to be drafted.
two days after KS ... we had our own big protest-fight at the "smokers hill" behind the parking lot. It was a nasty gang fight, bloody noses, chipped teeth etc. The "Long Hairs" surprisingly, won with the Jocks scurrying off to tell the principle.
My Dad and Uncle, both lifers, had convinced me to "STAY THE F..k out of this war".... they both knew it was complete bull sh#t by 1970 and I am really happy I won the lotto two years in a row.
Ahhhh... the Good Old Days.
If you lived through those days, like many here have, all I can say is this... we survived.
And thank you to those who did serve, we all had to make some very big decisions, life changing decisions.
peace to all
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dee ee
Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
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I was in my 2nd and last year at Heinz Kaiser Junior High in Costa Mesa and a climber at heart, and I was completely aware of the happenings that day.
At the time I had a paper route delivering the Daily Pilot and they ran a feature on the front page every day keeping a running tally of allied and enemy casualties.
I couldn't wrap my brain around the disparity in numbers. We had, at the time 40,000-50,000 and they had several hundred thousand.
What did it all mean?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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I was in Orange County, CA
I do not know how many, but some vets refuse to acknowledge this stuff happening.
Complex issue.
McNamara himself told some that it was a righteous and necessary war.
He changed his tune later.
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why." — McNamara, writing in his 1995 memoir, In Retrospect, on the management of the Vietnam War
Yet his hair was [almost] perfect.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Night after night the Huntley-Brinkley Report would give a count of Americans killed or wounded. What a grisly catastrophe. I was out of the service by 1962, but the USAF tried to lure me back to the carnage, to the extent I had to resign my commission.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Wow. Thanks for that JGill
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