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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 2, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
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So I like to train. Because it works. I am climbing as hard or harder in my early 40s as in my mid 20s, for one simple reason, the Rock Prodigy program. I'll spare you most of the spraydown, but with very limited time on real rock in the last year due to life circumstances, still manged to tick double-digit boulder problems and onsight steep 12s this season at 40-something and following an injury-induced layoff that had me out from Oct-Jan.
I've worked off the Anderson bros general plan for several years, from the original write up Mike did on RC.n00b about a decade ago.
Now they have published a book, The Rock Climbers' Training Manual.
These guys have really raised the bar for lit on the physical end of training for climbing. Both have climbed (and are still climbing) 5.14, and freed big walls, including many FFAs of wall routes like Spaceshot, Arcturus, Touchstone, etc. And that is while having full time jobs and raising kids. So they have the cred.
The book is comprehensive, including goal setting, long and short range planning, weight management, individual session planning, etc. There are separate sections specifically for big wall free climbing and bouldering. The general system is a periodized cycle with some management built in (i.e. not strictly a linear periodization, but not quite a block system).
The layout and graphics are excellent, and it is full color throughout. This is easily the best I've seen, with large glossy pages and inspiring photos (as well as lots of demo photos) it is closer to a high end college textbook than the typical cheap paper and black and white stuff we're used to in climbing books. Physically, it's thick and heavy, a little larger page size than the Self Coached Climber, by about an inch one way and half inch the other.There are samples of season long and daily plans, a quick start guide, and a separate season-long training log is included in the package.
You want to climb harder? Buy this book, follow the plan within, and you WILL increase your abilities. At $29 retail, it's a bargain IMO and completely blows the SCC or Horst books out of the water.
If I had to recommend two books to people wanting to improve (and I actually get this question probably once a week in the gym), it is this one and Dave MacCleod's "9 out of 10 climbers". This one will cover the physical end, MacCleod's addresses all the little things that make a big difference..conditions, tactics, fear, etc.
Well done boys, this is the first real improvement on the old Goddard/Neuman "Performance Rock Climbing" which was published over two decades ago.
They've set up a website that gives a good look at what's in the book, has forums for discussing training or the book, etc. You can check it out here:
http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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So what happened with Father Figure? Seems like you should have no problem if you are climbing double digits (5.14).
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
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It does address cardio, much like MacCleod addresses cardio. The basic idea being that aside from prepping for something like carrying loads for big wall staging with giant approaches, cardio is mostly a waste of time if you have a reasonable level of fitness, and is detrimental to your ability to recover (i.e. you need to recover from the cardio activity in addition to the climbing training). Cardio also typically induces appetite changes that are out of whack with how much you burn during the cardio, making weight management even harder.
At root, the limiting factor in ROCK climbing (as opposed to mountaineering) is almost always grip or technical. Forearms are small muscles and your cardio system's ability to move blood is not a limiter (add the fact that in the isometric contractions we're using, blood flow is largely occluded at anaerobic levels of intensity). Another factor is that doing typical cardio training...bike, running, etc will make you store more glycogen in those leg muscles, easily adding 5lb of bodyweight that is in no way helping you rock climb only decreasing your grip strenght:weight ratio.
I still ride my bikes, because I like to ride my bikes. But I do cut way back on it as the performance seasons for climbing approach to shed some of that leg weight.
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Michelle
Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
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Wait, cardio is bad? Huh?
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Easy Wind
Trad climber
Oakland, California
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Just picked up a copy of this in the mail. I'm a few weeks into the big wall/trad program. Having just reached my 30s, I'm focusing on incorporating more rest into the program - before I would always cheat and climb extra on weeknights and take big weekend trips. Very curious to see the results of following the program without too much extra curricular climbing.
For the last two years I have roughly followed the Rock Prodigy program and have experienced notable results. Having said that, I always added a solid weight lifting component to the training to build strength. In my opinion, the gains in total body strength were just as, if not more, instrumental to climbing progression as the technique and finger-focused training that the Rock Prodigy method expounds.
The book has a nice section on supplemental weight lifting/physical conditioning, but it still seems to be a bit light.
I'm curious to hear what weight lifting/physical conditioning/total body strength exercises (and frequency) are used by El Cap and other folks who have followed this training schedule. Particularly when it comes to applying this program to long Valley routes that are at or beyond your limit.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
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My supplementals are mostly shoulder and elbow maintenance things...rice bucket, wrist pronators, wall angels, hip adduction, that sort of thing but I've always done some focused core strength/hip hinge type stuff. Not high rep enduro core, but low rep strength development core stuff like 3-5 rep deadlifts, 6-8 rep crunch machine, front squats, swiss ball plank rollouts, heavy kettlebell swings, front lever pulls (pull into front lever, lower back to vertical in that planked/rigid position, repeat for reps). Basically trying to hit the entire core or posterior chain in the 3-8 rep zone whatever the exercise.
For some years I did chest/tris, but I'm prone to tricep tendonosis in one arm and most chest/tri stuff like dips and bench is very hard on my rotator cuffs and AC joints...so I don't really do them anymore. Seem to get plenty of chest from all the compression bouldering and generally steep bouldering.
For frequency, I am usually on a 3 day cycle...climbing or climbing training, supplementals, rest. But I'm also not young and spry and have a high-stress job, thats about all I can recover from.
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overwatch
climber
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So, generally of course, what does this book offer over the material in Performance Rock climbing?
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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My training goal is to have more fun.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I've found that general cardio was limiting factor in many all day adventures in Yosemite valley or other places. It wouldn't be at Southern California crimpfest 1 pitch routes with easy approaches.
Probably makes sense to incorporate the right cardio/strength balance for your preferred activities. Bouldering or high-end leading is an extreme case of conditioning for strength.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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My training goal is to have more fun
I recommend hookers and blow. Oh, and single malt scotch, and pure sativas.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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And Father Figure went down?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Does their system allow for beer this is important.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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At root, the limiting factor in ROCK climbing (as opposed to mountaineering) is almost always grip
Capt obvious sighting.
On a more serious note.. thanks for this post.. I'll check out the book.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
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So, generally of course, what does this book offer over the material in Performance Rock climbing
Quite a bit. While PRC gives the basics (and is outdated on the science regarding things like lactic acid), it's not very prescriptive. This book takes the basic physical training elements in PRC, updates it to modern scientific understanding, fleshes it out further, and then shows you how to actually build a training plan off those elements.
It also offers detailed sample plans on a range of scales...daily, cycle long, multi-year, etc.
Has detailed full chapters on tailoring the training for big wall free climbing, and for bouldering. A chapter specifically on weight management, looking at how/when to cut and when to carry a little extra.
Aside from that, it's just a much nicer book in a visual and physical sense. Larger pages, full color, etc. Goes into far more detail on most things. I'd say PRC is an outdated primer, while RCTM is textbook depth and current.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Does their system allow for beer this is important.
Sure, you can do curls with a keg.
You just can't drink it.
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Baggins
Boulder climber
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Cant find it right now but I read an article by super strong sport climber jonathan siegrist who attributed a big chunk of his success on 5.14+ routes to his superior cardio fitness levels.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
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I read an article by super strong sport climber jonathan siegrist who attributed a big chunk of his success on 5.14+ routes to his superior cardio fitness levels
Then you may be interested to learn that Siegrist is using the RCTM. In fact, I believe his endorsement is on the back cover, and he recently posted up support of it on the MtnProj.
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Spike Flavis
Trad climber
Truckee California
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Some climbers like to train-some don't.
If you like training and improving- this book is awsome!!!
The Anderson bros kick-ass at climbing, and have a life outside of climbing. How they do it is laid out in detail in this inspiring manual.
I like to geek out on training, work hard, struggle, AND improve. To me it's fun and really, really rewarding.
But if your happy with your current level of climbing progress and you have enough free time to maintain it-good for you.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Training is for losers. I mean shouldn't all people just have FUN and CLIMB. BITD no one trained, cuz its lame. Sport C**G is NEITHER!
JUST KIDDING!
I designed a 20 week training schedule that I think will help me a lot if I am able to follow it. Would kick ass if I could, but I get out and climb in Yosemite during weekends and long weekends (often) which is counter productive to pure training. Just have to remind myself that I sacrifice training because I really love to rock climb outdoors...still get frustrated because I do not make gains I should be making if I concentrated on pure training.
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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Heres how I do it.
dont train. drink. when your hungover and ALWAYS off the couch no one expectsmuch
it's a win-win! if you climb the same siht year after year and have a bad day "of course BOG sucks hesoff the couch and hungover"
But when I have a good day on a roite i have totally dicked/ wired everyone says "wow check out BOG he fired it hungover and off the couch!!!! WHATABADASSS!!!
So nubes heres BOG training tips
1-Dont train
2-Dont try hard
3-wire a couple of routes to send when the ego needs it
4-get drunk and Talksiht aboubt any one who started climbing after you.
5-Suck at everything else in life because your a "climber"
got it.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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I'll drink to that BOG, cheers.
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Sanskara
climber
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Training is fun!
At least I like it. Many of my friends and partners can't stand it but ehy just have diffently priorities. They like to have fun and don't consider suffering fun.
I can't train anymore because I am getting old and I injure myself now when I train hard.
If you are gonna take a sarcastic or sh#t talking tone on this thread Biter Old Guy nailed it. Gonna be hard to top....
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Just picked it up, thanks! Been looking to building training cycles, I usually just do whatever training I feel is appropriate. I'm sure I'm making big mistakes somewhere...
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Easy Wind
Trad climber
Oakland, California
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Vitaliy.
The RCTM includes a 17-week program tailored to traditional and big wall free climbing. It builds in an extended strength phase, plans time for regular outdoor mileage days on the weekends, and cuts back on sport climbing specific phases that aren't as critical for success on the typical long traditional route.
It's seems to be the most realistic program for those interested in long free routes who still want to climb outside on a regular basis. After all, the skills trained need to be specific to the goal.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
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Sure. And no amount of cardio training would have magically produced water, allowing me to eat and drink; or created a wind shift to clear the forest fire smoke.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Thanks for this thread, El Cap. I've had a very long layoff so I am just now beginning to get back into training -- at one age 62 -- and I appreciate the excellent info the book provides.
We can joke about training, but I, for one, enjoy myself more when I'm in better shape. Besides, the better shape I'm in, the more freedom I have to climb what I want.
Thanks again.
John
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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It's a good recommendation capinyoass. "Does their system allow for beer this is important." In fact Mike addresses that very thing under the title WHY TRAIN. "It seems every time someone asks a question about training, or attempts to have a meaningful discussion, it doesn’t take long for some moron to chime in with “I train my biceps by lifting a beer up to my fat face.” Insecure and below average climbers love to bash those of us with enough self respect to seek improvement. Someone once said: “Anything worth doing is worth doing well.” I believe this applies to climbing as well as it does anything else in life. I cannot understand the attitude of someone who would spend every weekend out on the rock, but not be at least mildly interested in getting better. "
The folks I see climbing the best seem to both train and climb a lot. Certainly Bachar use to do both and it worked for him. I thought Anderson had a great point about training with this: "The second, and to me, most compelling reason to train is injury prevention. Stop and catch your breath, that wasn’t a typo. Yes, training prevents injury. Here’s how: Imagine some "guy A" who goes into the weight room (according to no specific schedule whatsoever, just when he has time) and he does one squat rep of a random weight then a couple reps of bicep curls (again at random weight, and so on), then a pullup followed by two more squat reps, then does one max rep on tricep extensions, then does a bicep curl then one max rep on leg extension then does one military press, then maxes out on bench press, then 3 situps, etc....
Now imagine "guy B". He goes to the weight room according to a schedule he has mapped out that allows for hard days, easy days and rest days. When he's in the gym he warms up each muscle group before working it, then he lifts a specified weight that is based on what he has lifted during his previous workouts plus an incremental (say 5%) increase. Which guy do you think will get injured? "
Certainly even doing a route below your ability could still fit this criteria of overdoing it if you boff a sequence or are having an off day. I'll check out the book Will cause at 59 going on 60 years old the injury thing is needed more than ever now, but I already know that the hardest part will be in following it.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Someone once said: “Anything worth doing is worth doing well.”
I disagree. Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess, particularly if it involves climbing.
John
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TwistedCrank
climber
Bungwater Hollow, Ida-ho
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Training for climbing is like fcuking for virginity.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
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I hear ya Bill, injury prevention is a really important reason to train and Mike captures the "why" very well in the excerpt.
In my 20s I had all kinds of finger problems, 10 different A2 pulley injuries. After starting the controlled, regimented training, I've had one finger injury in 6 years with a lot of bouldering at my limit during that time (and that was a pinky, which is very uncommon). The increase in middle+ring two finger pocket strength has the biggest gains I've made and since it was always those two, especially the ring that were blowing up pulleys, I think it has worked for injury prevention.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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May 10, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
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[quote]Training for climbing is like fcuking for virginity.[/quote
Without f*#king there would be no virginity so this makes sense.
I'm digging the book so far. At the very least it is helping me organize my training as I completely lack discipline and need concept likes these to help get me motivated. My only real complaint is that my book arrived kind of banged up because of the soft packaging. That made me a little sad.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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May 13, 2014 - 02:37am PT
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Heres how I do it.
dont train. drink. when your hungover and ALWAYS off the couch no one expectsmuch
it's a win-win! if you climb the same siht year after year and have a bad day "of course BOG sucks hesoff the couch and hungover"
But when I have a good day on a roite i have totally dicked/ wired everyone says "wow check out BOG he fired it hungover and off the couch!!!! WHATABADASSS!!!
So nubes heres BOG training tips
1-Dont train
2-Dont try hard
3-wire a couple of routes to send when the ego needs it
4-get drunk and Talksiht aboubt any one who started climbing after you.
5-Suck at everything else in life because your a "climber"
got it.
Well, this is kinda my philosophy, but everybody's different....I just like climbing rocks and sh#t.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 13, 2014 - 09:19am PT
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Bought the book. Wife stole it. Last I saw of it.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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May 24, 2014 - 11:28am PT
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Got the book and saw that they give you a shout out Will. You may already have known it, but if not, 1st paragraph inside cover. Congrats.
Looks like you need to buy a 2nd one Steelmonkey. These guys wanted some high production values and they clearly spent the scratch to achieve it. Very quality book. Looks to be edited and refined well too.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 24, 2014 - 11:44am PT
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I understand that some folks don't like to train. But training makes you climb better, it makes the climbs you do more enjoyable, it increases the spectrum of routes available to you, and (properly done) it decreases your risk of injury. This has nothing to do with competition and it isn't just a sport-climbing thing. However modest your current abilities might be, you get a better "you" from training.
Without some ongoing form of training (and for me the amount and content has certainly varied over time) I wouldn't be climbing at all any more, like the vast majority of my contemporaries who have long since left the field.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Jun 16, 2014 - 07:12pm PT
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Trying out the book- happy to report that the section on big wall free climbing restores all of the cardio training into the regimen.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Aug 27, 2014 - 08:18am PT
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i'm inspired by tucker's method
of carrying a heavy boulder down
the lane and back
so i, this morning,
reached into the recycle can
and grabbed about 4 partially crushed cans
and 2 plastic juice bottles,
the whole lot pretty precarious
in my overloaded paws, all ready
to jump out and scatter
but through precise pressure adjustments
and a collected grip,
i was able to take this
bundle of promise
to the end of the road and back,
about a 1/2 mile.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 15, 2014 - 09:04pm PT
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hey ECIYA, check your STForum email accnt...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
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I've been playing around with learning how to use the RCTM.
It seems to follow a strategy that makes sense from what I could learn from the various papers on the biomechanics and physiology of climbing...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1574691
basically, it's about training the forearms...
once you've got most of the base fitness stuff down, including weight reduction.
The RCTM outlines a periodic training schedule about 3 per year, 18 weeks for a cycle. My first time through is coming to a close. And as it states that you should have a goal, my goal for the first time was to figure out how to do each of the programs, strength, endurance, power, power-endurance; and without getting injured.
The logistics includes multiple gyms, building some home equipment, and figuring out an aerobic training scheme, and fit it into my usual schedule.
The program I was following was the "Trad" training program, but I've modified it a bit to include some campus board work. My main motivation for this was to improve my lock-off ability, which I usually wish I had more of, with a residual benefit of improving power, and strengthening shoulders.
Both the hang-board and the campus-board routines come with copious warnings about injuries. Warming up is important, and I basically use a black Theraband and go through a set of 9 or 10 different shoulder exercises as warm ups before jumping on either board.
But more importantly, I use a counter weight, which I've found over the years to be a fast way of improving without injuries.
My campus-board is also built from the large Metolius rungs, 1.25", which I'll stick with until I can do the exercises without weights. At that point I'll contemplate going to the medium rungs... I'm not training for Action Direct so I'll probably not go to the small rungs, ever.
Here's a few pictures, it's a basic 5 rung ladder with 11.5" spaced rungs, it overhangs 20º
you can see the counterweight scheme. The campus board is built on an independent frame and can be stowed away when I'm not training on it. It is just in front of the hang-board, which has different routing for the counterweight.
More detail:
the bottom rung is 6' off the ground making it easy to hang from it bent legged.
The pulley system is off the framing of the garage
note that I put some 2"x4" spreaders to resist the "squeeze" force of the very shallow angle of the cord.
The weight is hung from a hook while I clip into the cord on the other side of the pulley system (have to climb the Aluminum ladder to do that). Body weight moves the counter weight off the hook and the height is such that I get assistance all the way to the top.
You have to be careful to rig something that isn't going to fall down on your head (I've done that before and have a scar to show for it).
Anyway, I've been working with this system now and learning how to campus board. The RCTM warns that you shouldn't even try to do their "beginner's" routine until you can do the "Basic Ladders" smoothly. I'm not quite there yet even with the weights.
My routine has been to do "Matching Ladders" for 4 sets followed by "Basic Ladders" for 4 sets.
(Matching Ladders: match on rung 1, right hand to rung 2, match on rung 2, left hand to rung 3, etc..., Basic Ladders: match on rung 1, right hand to rung 2, left hand to rung 3, etc...)
It's a workout, hopefully I'll find it beneficial. Once I can do it smoothly, I'll add 4 sets of "Max Ladders" which have you throwing as far as you can... that's the power aspect of the exercise.
Then I'll start to reduce the counter weight.
The training period for these exercises is relatively short in the cycle, but repeating them three times a year should be much better than not doing them at all (as long as I don't get hurt!)
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Gunks Jesse
Trad climber
Shawangunk, NY
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Aug 12, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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So I have been using the book and see results, but I'm working on the basic fitness and weight management part right now. I'm looking at how I can really benefit from the 18 week training cycle that incorporates campus and hang board, but I don't have anywhere to set the stuff up. Does anyone have any suggestions on common things (not door frame trim) that can be used to simulate a campus or hang board?
Or am I just crazy?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2015 - 08:31am PT
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Jesse, I trained one hangboard cycle of weighted hangs on nothing but the smallest metolius campus rung screwed into the studs above a door frame (had just moved house).
Any rounded piece of wood trim about a pad deep and a bit wider than shoulder width will work, medium or small campus rungs works really well for that, and they are only about 2" tall, so will fit over virtually any doorframe.
I do my campusing in the gyms, have never built my own since I
only do a total of 8-10 campus sessions in any year. A lot of the ones is gyms kind of suck though - no intermediate spaced rungs making progress hard to gauge on max pulls, sharp bottom edge and a 90 degree undercut that will shred your thighs. I always change into old pants, duct tape the bottom edge of the board, and still look like I'd been lashed across the quads.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 12, 2015 - 08:36am PT
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I like to judge books by their cover.
And that is one baddass cover!
Thanks for the tip.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Aug 12, 2015 - 10:32am PT
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I used the book and it taught me a lot so far. Unfortunately there is not much on practicing techniques, but the book is golden for strength training. Can't wait for the fall, so I could actually get on some sort of a schedule. It is hard to during the summer when you try to climb as much as possible.
If anyone is looking for AWESOME podcasts that incorporate training tips etc, check out ones on training beta. I like pretty much all of them. Good stuff.
Training idea is easy - intense session, good nutrition, good rest and consistency. What is hard is complying with schedule :)
CHECK THESE OUT!!!
https://www.trainingbeta.com/trainingbeta-podcast/
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
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^^^
"a rare week off of all things climbing"
Good chance that's why you're battling injuries so often. That "rare" week off should be about 4 times a year. I won't train any specific quality (i.e. power, endurance, etc) more than 3.5 weeks before switching focus, and take 7-10 days off at the end of the every cycle (cycle runs 10-15 weeks for me, depending on the upcoming season...e.g. my bouldering season cycles are shorter because I don't train pure endurance in that cycle).
I also use a "wave" style loading progression in the micro-cycles and a transition week between micros that reduces volume. Could spent a lot of time spraying about how well this is working for the kids I coach (works for me too, but sample size of 1 isn't compelling, sample size of 15 otoh...)
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 18, 2015 - 11:08pm PT
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Quite the set up Mr. Hartouni, thanks for sharing
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