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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 22, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
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They are fatally flawed and promote crowding. Most will agree that the rating system is rife with subjectivity. Quality ratings are far more subjective than ratings and that is the fatal flaw of "select" books. These books also promote the already deeply ingrained "herd instinct" in climbers and direct people to the same routes allowing perfectly good climbs to fall into obscurity.
Case in point....Yosemite's Select has a topo of all of the lines at Arch Rock but leaves the non-select climbs vacant of info.....just a scribbled line on the wall. English Breakfast Crack, an enduring classic, is left blank as if it didn't exist. Okay, that is my subjective opinion but that's the point.
Complete worthwhile areas are overlooked. I know that the whole purpose is to winnow down the choices to a consise few but these books do a disservice to the reader. Far better to have a definitive guide that YOU can "subjectively" winnow. Hell, you're sure to find some nuggets and maybe a little exploring will be good for you. With weekend lines at the base of a half dozen routes in a climbing mecca like the Valley, one wonders why so much great climbing lies fallow. This problem, by the way, is in no way unique to Yosemite.
Some here think that all guidebooks suck.....any opinions?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Apr 22, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
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Perhapes you're not the demographic for this type of guidebook?
If I'm in an area for a short period of time, the "select classics" make more sense despite the crowding than spending precious time trying to figure out what the worthwhile obscure areas are.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
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If you loan your guidebooks to my friends, they will tear out the pages for any route over two pitches long.
Now I have the "leftovers select guide" and wonder what was on that missing page.
I still like Roper's word descriptions the best.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
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I think guide books suck.....climbing should be a personal matter like religion...there's something capitalisitic about claiming first ascents...
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
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I dunno Jim, I just got the Vogel Classic Joshua Tree routes and Bouldering guide and I couldn't be more stoked.
My trusty old comprehensive guide from the early 90's is essential but the new one weeds out many of those no star routes.
This new guide lists classics with worthwhile routes in the immediate area- a good recipe.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
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Guidebook or not, everyone climbs the quality moderates.
Which are in short supply in the Valley - if we are honest. Red Rocks or Joshua Tree or other areas...you might have a case.
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Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
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In the Potrero Chico, where many new routes are still going in every year it would be prohibitive to produce a quality comprehensive guide and try to update it every season. My solution was to produce a slick, professional Select book with color photos and the best routes in every sector AND continue to publish my Plain Jane edition which is updated every year. Potrero Select does point out that there are other worthwhile routes in each sector.
Overall I prefer to have some sort of guide to a new area I'm visiting although I must admit that many of my best memories are of days and adventures without a guidebook.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
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You just don't know how to use one properly.
The select guides tell you the places you want to avoid on the weekends. They work really well for that.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
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well, guess I'll cancel my trip to Cobra Pillar on account of select guidebooks pretty much sucking
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:41pm PT
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Guidebooks. It depends. Do they reveal secrets or show the way? Revealing secrets to the world is a sacrilege whereas showing the way is one's savior. My preference is personal discovery, even if done before me. it is curious how too much information can destroy wilderness. Leave no trace?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
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Select guides serve a population of climbers who are:
1. only planning to do a few climbs in an area (folks on a roadtrip)
or
2. not sure if they will do more than a few climbs, i.e. people who haven't climbed outside much (yet)
or
3. unable to buy the complete guide because it's out of print
If these climbers end up coming back a lot to the area they may end up buying the complete guide (if in print); then they will have both.
Even a complete guide these days will have stars which will direct traffic to some of the crowded routes.
Mostly it provides options to folks who don't need to do the top 20-50 routes over and over.
There is also the related issue that some editions of the semi-complete guide may also skip some climbs, such as Washington Column Direct and Mt. Starr King. Some judgement is made about whether the route is worthy, or possibly whether the effort to include route info is worth it.
I agree, though, it seems weird to have a page on Arch Rock and not fill the page with climbs, regardless of star level.
I.e. why leave a climb out unless it saves you a page or unless it's certifiably bad.
English Breakfast Crack is cool - especially up near the end of p2!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
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I love "Select" guide books for 2 reasons:
1. Crowds the good routes, leaving the less popular ones in solitude.
2. Helps me find the good routes mid week when I'm new to an area.
Mostly I no longer use guide books. I'm aged-out of the demographic. I just go climb rocks that look pretty which winds up being 5.6 or less.
I do buy Supertopo guides to support this site but I never use them.
I will accept signed editions of guidebooks from authors if they have my picture in it or if there is a thank-you credit for me. (I understand if you don't when your guide is so fat it costs you personally $40 just to print the damn thing.)
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
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I think the answer is to stop "printing" actual bigger guides mostly and keep online versions that are updated on a continuous basis and can be subscribed to and printed out in portions.
I would love to see a 2 or 3 volume definitive guide book for the Valley but it can't happen. Sloan says he has been working on one for many years, but meanwhile...nothing. And today, it would be too static. The moment it were printed, there would be another hundred routes missing from it. And we all need to face the changing times and use resources more intelligently.
This is not to say an online digital one could not be amazing and rich. Like the Roper ones. The discursive ones. But what we get out of CMac and people like him today has to change too. The historical aspects of printed guides could still carry on with this "Wikiclimb" idea!
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
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On the flip side, I loooove a good comprehensive guide. I spend hours reading and rereading Brad Young's Pinnacles and SPH guides, routes, area history, all of it.
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
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Some of them are pretty good, especially if it's the only guidebook available. Cirque of the Towers and Deep Lake comes to mind.
Also this one
But I feel like once a guidebook breaks 1000 routes, it's not really much of a "select" book, regardless of what the cover says.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 12:12am PT
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I remember when that first big powder blue Yosemite guide book came out.
I think it was Donny Reid that gave me the first copy in the camp 4 lot.
So I'm standing there in the C4 lot looking at the front cover while Donny is walking away into the sunset.
Haven't even opened it yet and I can't remember who it was came up and said; "You got the new guide book!!!!"
I said: "Yeah" and handed it to him then said; "Keep it, it's yours" as the sun sank in the west.
So sorry, but Donny I still love ya ........
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 23, 2014 - 12:34am PT
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the blue one 'showed us the way'
learned much from a short Dill article at the time.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 12:37am PT
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Yeah Dills preface was/still is a good one.
He asked me to read it way before he ever submitted it to Donny.
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MisterE
climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 12:44am PT
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I think the answer is to stop "printing" actual bigger guides mostly and keep online versions that are updated on a continuous basis and can be subscribed to and printed out in portions.
I would love to see a 2 or 3 volume definitive guide book for the Valley but it can't happen. Sloan says he has been working on one for many years, but meanwhile...nothing. And today, it would be too static. The moment it were printed, there would be another hundred routes missing from it. And we all need to face the changing times and use resources more intelligently.
This is not to say an online digital one could not be amazing and rich. Like the Roper ones. The discursive ones. But what we get out of CMac and people like him today has to change too. The historical aspects of printed guides could still carry on with this "Wikiclimb" idea!
I am more interested in the conversation about the heart and soul of the people hammering out the various critical elements of the recording, and how things get lost when one stops fingering pages of a well-used and annotated volume that carries the history of the process, your own desires and goals.
What climber has not made side-notes in your guide-books? What is lost when all of our recordings are digital?
8a.nu score-keeping and digital down-loads are just not congruous to some ways of thinking.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 23, 2014 - 12:45am PT
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The Squamish select is good because it has about 500 previously unrecorded pitches out of 2000 in the book. We have so many new routes that this book was a blessing, if these routes didn't start seeing traffic they would have grown over. I think our area is an exception though & the book pictured above is more of a "comprehensive select"
We need a new comprehensive guide so badly before all the new stuff since the select & stuff that didn't cut it goes green!
The author Marc also makes good practice of rotating the "top 100 climbs"
In the soon to be released bouldering guide for Squamish he has changed about 70 of the "top 100" from the previous edition in order to redistribute traffic. He plans to do the same in future editions of the select as well. I think this is a good strategy & a good way to establish "modern classics" if they are really good routes they will stay popular after the "top 100" disclaimer is removed from their description in the next edition.
Select guides are here to stay, like it or not.
I think it's best to contribute feedback to authors whenever possible if you want to see an area well represented or have knowledge that the author was not aware of about an area that could be useful. Most guide authors I've met are pretty open to suggestions.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 23, 2014 - 01:05am PT
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LOL Like it or not, it is a business. I liked it when I started climbing. Topos were easy to follow and climbs are usually what you would expect. Now the Reid guide is my guidebook of choice for Yosemite since it has many more climbs in it and allows for some adventure haha. For a select, I think ST could be a lot better. Many more high quality moderates could be included. And list more than two grade IV 5.11s. All the Euros are done with the hardest two climbs in the book after only two days of climbing!
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Apr 23, 2014 - 01:24am PT
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Classic. Mr Braun.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 01:29am PT
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an interesting discussion, but a cranky OP title sort of started it off in a negative direction.
Probably any guide book is better than no guidebook, and select guides have their place... a guidebook has to be so much to so many that it can't hope to succeed, necessarily, in all ways.
From Bridwell's Forward in the Meyers "Yellow guide": "...I was pleased when I heard that George was working on a much needed new guide because I was confident that he would do a thorough and concise edition. His first guide of 350 selected best rock climbs in Yosemite was very likely the most understandable guide book ever written. The newest guide follows the same clear format but is updated as well as being more complete..."
The first guide is referred to as Meyers "Green guide" and was published by Royal out of Merced, loose leaf pages in a binder. The Preface of that guide states: "These (350) climbs were chosen for inclusion on the basis of their beauty, quality, difficulty and popularity."
54 climbs 1940 Leonard and Brower
75 climbs 1954 Voge
273 climbs 1964 Roper
479 climbs 1971 Roper
91 climbs 1974 Nichol
350 climbs 1976 Meyers (Green)
808 climbs 1982 Meyers (Yellow)
51 climbs 1987 Harlin
1183 climbs 1987 Meyers-Reid (the one Werner gave away)
118 climbs 1992 Falkenstein (Sport Climbs)
1538 climbs 1994 Reid (Free climbs)
157 climbs 1996 Reid (Aid climbs)
41 climbs 2000 SuperTopo
205 climbs 2003 SuperTopo
current projection for the comprehensive Valley guide is greater than 3400 climbs.
I agree that things get unwieldy, and hard to update. Modern technology will help in updating, but I don't know what the "business model" is for updates, subscription? ebook? etc...
digital media most certainly complicates things, in terms of copyright, etc.
Mountain Project like sites might work... or even more elaborate web presentations (like a YosemiteClimbs.kml file for Google Earth?)
And no guide will capture everything that is going on at the moment, and the hiatus of the new guide (now going on 20 years!) will have climbs lost.
Not thinking of a guide as definitive is an important step for the community to take.
Realizing that Yosemite Valley climbing is done by people making a trip of a lifetime who will never return as well as people who hang out there year-round for decades puts a lot of demand on a guide book.
There are no answers to this, but at least we can try to make a good go at it.
as an aside, the guide book size (in number of routes) is like a power law, doubling every 11.6 years since 1940. If that is a way of estimating numbers of routes, then we should be looking at about 5000 routes in the new guide... it will be interesting to see if there has actually been a drop off in route production or if 1600 routes are out there completely unreported...
this sets a scale in what future comprehensive guides have to do... the 2025 guide would be 10,000 routes. Hard to imagine...
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 02:35am PT
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Personally, I prefer the comprehensive guides. But, working in the shop, I do feel the pain of the visiting climber who wants to do a little bit of everything on the eastside and can't just buy one book for the week that they'll be here. Usually, they just end up not buying anything at all.
Currently you need the following books for climbing here: Bishop Bouldering, Mammoth Bouldering, Owens River Gorge Guide, Bishop Area Rock Climbs, Mammoth Area Rock Climbs, High Sierra Supertopo, The Good, The Great, and the Awesome, High Sierra Falcon Guide (Fiddler & Moynier), and Peaks, Passes, and Trails (Secor).
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Degaine
climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 03:29am PT
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donini wrote:
With weekend lines at the base of a half dozen routes in a climbing mecca like the Valley, one wonders why so much great climbing lies fallow. This problem, by the way, is in no way unique to Yosemite.
This has at least as much to do with one's approach to climbing as the way the information is presented. Just go to Lover's Leap on any given weekend during the summer, and witness a line on The Line. It's easy to have a high-quality plan B or C using any of the guidebooks in existence (or info on the Internet), yet people choose to stick with plan A. Ditto for West Crack on Daff Dome.
There's so much information on the Internet that I'll do a fair amount of research before I go to an area (for a day, weekend, week), and then try to ask locals once there if what I planned on climbing is worthwhile. However, I can see the use of some sort of "select" or "recommendation" system worthwhile if on a road trip. Adventure is great, and I don't disagree, but if it may be the only time one has the chance to visit an area, it might be nice to be able to climb at least one or two super-classics.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 23, 2014 - 03:37am PT
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I've had classics in mind before when visiting an area & not been able to get on them for whatever reason & ended up climbing the random thing next door or around the corner. Many of these next door climbs are the best climbs i've ever done. The ones around the corner are usually out of this world.
I agree that some selects are pretty welly though including most of the ST ones.
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John Ely
Trad climber
DC
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Apr 23, 2014 - 09:51am PT
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The herd instinct is a real drag, but it is hard to know what to do about it. Comprehensive guides are expensive, and I plead guilty on plans to head to Italy in search of the famous routes of Preuss and Cassin. Who wouldn't want to touch these? It's just the same with Harding and Robbins, Porter and Bacher, isn't it? And the easiest way still to avoid herds is to just wake up early, or pick a longer approach.
Just as much of a drag are extremely well-informed locals who know everything but are unwelcoming to outsiders, and who damage the inherently attractive cosmopolitan aspect of the sport. (See e.g. Canjon Tajo debates.) I think the way to preserve what we have is to get as many people as possible to share it with us, find more places to adventure, and let others learn to care themselves.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 23, 2014 - 11:02am PT
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The herd instinct is a real drag, but it is hard to know what to do about it
Climb harder.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Apr 23, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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I like new guidebooks because they help me remember which routes I have/have not done, and the obligatory grade inflation of old classics reminds me of how badass I used to be,
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 23, 2014 - 11:30am PT
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Just as much of a drag are extremely well-informed locals who know everything but are unwelcoming to outsiders, and who damage the inherently attractive cosmopolitan aspect of the sport. (See e.g. Canjon Tajo debates.) I think the way to preserve what we have is to get as many people as possible to share it with us, find more places to adventure, and let others learn to care themselves.
John... so true. The tight lip "secret spot locals" are a drag.
I don't like select guides for this reason. You have your "select" guide, you show up at one of the mega classics only to find about 14 parties on it. You see a fine line just a few yards to the side with zero climbers, go to look it up in the book and you get nothing.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 23, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
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Few climbers want to do climbs that nobody else does - they prefer to do routes everyone else does - an approach which is contrary to the spirit of climbing, as I know it, anyway.
And in that spirit we should all be thankful for "Select" guidebooks. They keep the climbers who prefer to do routes everyone else does in a few well-known places, and leave the remaining 90% of the climbs in the area empty of traffic.
Even in comprehensive guides, the stupid star system does the same thing (so I guess I shouldn't call it stupid). It's amazing to be the only party on an incredibly good climb while something just around the corner has a conga line of people going up and down it all day.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 23, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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Depends Jim, does that guide you mention the Enema?
You'll sing a different tune when I publish my Select guide to Wyde Climbs of the West!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
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Weren't all guidebooks 'select' BITD?
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
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Select guides represent an opportunity for climbers in a specific area to raise $$$ for area support. (Ie gravel in a parking area, Porta potty placement). About 15-20 years ago several friends and I created a very simple select guide to the crags around Puget Sound. It was designed for folks just passing thru the area - those with a day or two to climb. At first we wanted each guidebook writer in the region to write-up the section for the area covered by their guidebook but that didn't seem to be easily managed. In the end we wrote it and had it reviewed by "locals."
The guide was successful from a fundraising perspective.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
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In recent years I would scan or compile my own topo info into an electronic file and have a print-out of that with me if it was a personally demanding unknown adventure. But that was as much a way to savor the overall experience and make it last longer than anything else. It's a way of blending past adventures, stuff I've gleaned from different guides, photos I've taken or found, and dreams I've concocted, into the creation of the next new dream. We don't always have the time to do this. Guidebooks are pre-made dream templates for those who don't have time or direct experience to create their own. So many dreams out there, so different, how can one guide satisfy them all?
Maybe the most geeky/techie answer to the problem is a database of layered images and text that can be selectively triggered to meet the hopes and dreams of the user. Answer a few questions about the style you like, and different layers are turned on/off and you get what you want. Print as needed prior to the adventure.
As MrE points out, there is still a magic of printed word that is lost. The unplanned perusal of the guide when the moment captures you and you grab it off the shelf, and spend an afternoon dreaming about future adventures when you had planned to do something else that day. The web-surfing/online version of this random wander is definitely a more threatening time-sinker, but I'm not sure it leaves me with the same sense of satisfaction.
As an aside, the most memorable epics, maybe best adventures I've had, were on days we had no topos or info with us. That said, there is no point in targeting a guidebook to these sort of adventures. They either happen for people who won't buy your guidebook, or they happen incidentally as an offshoot adventure when another thing was planned using your goodbook. Maybe a few cryptic words in a guidebook pointing in that unknown direction are a good idea though. Sort of like the '87 Meyers/Reid has some overview pictures with named lines, but the lines don't show up in descriptions. That just creates instant obscurity classics, enough words to facilitate whispered questions among like-minded souls.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 23, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
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This select guide is of great importance.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 23, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
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I don't much care for the "select" guides either.
Even if I'm only on a quick visit and will only do 2 or 3 routes. I like to know what's around me. Up on the third pitch, looking to the right across a nearly vertical wall. Two different bolt lines. I want to find out about those climbs even though they're likely above my pay grade. How far up do they go? When/who put them up? Perhaps I really could get up that near one?
Give me the whole guide, I'll read as much as I can in advance. Work out in advance what areas I'm interested in. Which climbs look worthwhile. Get suggestions from friends or from researching SuperTopo etc.
A couple of quick examples:
Current SuperTopo guide (not called a "Select" by the way). No mention of Slab Happy Pinnacle (Roper, Meyers & Reed blue)
Good place to get high on a cool crowded day.
SuperTopo has nothing between 5 Crowded Books and Sunnyside Bench. Not even the excellent Lena's Lieback.
Several fine climbs up to the left of the Lower Falls for a hot day with the falls mist cooling the air.
SuperTopo Sentinel has only the Steak Salad. Chouinard-Herbert? West Face?
SuperTopo Middle Cathedral long routes? Only 4 - East Butt, Kor-Beck, Central Pillar of Frenzy, DNB.
I'd rather look at the entire menu before I check out the specials.
In advance I usually scan the pages I'm most interested in and print them. When I get to the destination, if I'm interested in one I haven't scanned I sketch my copy from the guide.
'87 Meyers/Reid has some overview pictures with named lines, but the lines don't show up in descriptions. That just creates instant obscurity classics, enough words to facilitate whispered questions among like-minded souls. well said
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
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I'm SLOWLY working on a guide that will have every climb in the area and no star ratings.
People will probably not like it, they can make their own guide :)
The plan is to publish PDFs of each area as I finish them on my website for free download. Then I can get feedback before it goes into print and I will successfully avoid making any money since it will all be online for free, but at least it will be accurate!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
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They are fatally flawed and promote crowding. Most will agree that the rating system is rife with subjectivity. Quality ratings are far more subjective than ratings and that is the fatal flaw of "select" books.
I, too, find the "quality" ratings too subjective to be taken as anything but one person's suggestions, but I don't see that as a fatal flaw. They're just one more bit of idiosyncratic information. If anything, I'm with those who like "select" guidebooks -- at least for areas I know well -- because they tend to confine crowding to a small percentage of the climbs in an area.
However, as someone who grew up with the 1964 Roper Guide to the Valley,the Voge Guides to the High Sierra, and the Ortenburger Teton Range guide, I really miss guides that include FA info and other history and commentary as part of the descriptions. It's perhaps for that reason that I particularly admire Secor's guides to the High Sierra. His guides remain comprehensive, have history and commentary, and retain enough route-finding uncertainty to keep adventure high (so to speak).
John
Edit: Labrat makes a good point about the ST guides. I love the commentary about the history, strategy, etc. almost as much as the topos themselves. Well done, ST!
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
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donini and nopantsben,
When are you going to publish the the good comprehensive guide to Yosemite?
Stop whining and complaining. Go climbing more so you don't have the energy.
I think it's bad form to complain on a forum provided by people who do a great job had vision to publish some great guide books.
Erik
PS Thanks CMac and company!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 23, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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I kinda like the select guides, especially if I'm just visiting an area for a short time.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Apr 23, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
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Evidently you have yet to behold the awsome-ness of select mini-guide:
"15 Climbs that Don't Suck in Sedona"
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 23, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
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Beef I have with ST select guides is that Top Roping/Sport Climbing guide for yosemite is different from Trad guide. Even though both cover a lot of the same climbs. Some stuff from TR/Sport book could have been added to trad book, and probably belongs there anyway. Like all those TRable fingercrack boulders (which also appear in the bouldering guide). Longer mixed sport/trad routes on Park Line Slab would be a logical addition to the trad guide IMO. I do like the guidebook itself though. Just some criticism. Of course it is easier to criticize vs write own guidebook. :)
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Apr 23, 2014 - 04:45pm PT
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Different strokes for different folks.
If you don't like Select guides in general, then you were probably not the target audience anyway.
While a comprehensive guide may spread the masses a bit more widely, it is very questionable if the effect is that significant. Something like 90% of climbers climb no more than 5% of established routes -- regardless of the "guidebook" resource being utilized.
I like comprehensive guides much more than Select guides myself, but as has been pointed out, there are very few real "comprehensive" guides. Most comprehensive guides fall far short of that mark, there being a ongoing winnowing of routes from edition to edition (as pointed out by Ed above).
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
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Erik
I have no beef with the SuperTopo guides. They are excellent and the notes are very good, especially the approach/descent. The Yosemite Valley Free Climbs guide is not what I call a "select" guide as it covers about 125 routes. They also incorporate feedback from climbers. Several years ago I suggested a correction for Doggie Diversions which made it into the book.
But I never go the The Valley without Meyers and Reid (both editions) and usually Roper as well. Similar for Tuolumne
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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Select guides can be useful. Kevin Mclane came out with "Canadian Rock" a few years ago, which contains 1800+ routes to a number of areas in BC and Alberta. There are a number of obscure but worthwhile places included and should prompt people to get around more.
This should be a big bonus to Muricans because most come up here to climb at Squamish, the Bugs, or do Canadian Rockies alpinism. When the weather craps out in these places a book such as Kevin's will give them ideas about where to go so they can get a good salvage mission happening.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
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dagibbs
Trad climber
Ottawa, Ontario
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Apr 23, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
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I am torn.
For many areas, a complete guide will be unwieldy to create, maintain, publish, and carry around. Or has to run into multiple volumes.
For sport areas, I prefer guides that are, at least, complete on a per-crag, or per-face basis, because sport climbs don't always follow an obvious feature, so finding the right climb can be a matter of counting bolt-lines over from a known feature or climb.
For trad/gear climbs, I find a select is more useable, because usually there is something that the climb clearly follows - a crack, corner, feature, etc. Then describing some, but not all, of the choices can still allow one to find the climb one wants.
In doing a complete, the question also will be how complete... every variation? Every link-up? Some? None? Even if a particular link-up is the best climb at the crag in question?
I tend to favour a select crags, but all the lines at each described crag choice, most of the time. Especially as a visitor to an area. It allows me to find good alternates if the particular line I'm looking at is busy to very busy, while still not leaving me carrying an encyclopedia in my pack.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 07:02pm PT
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The [supertopo] Yosemite Valley Free Climbs guide is not what I call a "select" guide as it covers about 125 routes. Really?
If a guide leaves out the vast majority of routes, that defines select in my view.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 23, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
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Clint
Yes, I stand corrected. I have to agree the SuperTopo valley guide is a "selection". I pointed out several good climbs of the many that are left out.
last time I checked your list it's up to 2694 climbs. That of course includes aid climbs.
It's an excellent list.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Apr 23, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
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oh look, how new, how fresh, folks complaining of crowds on ST.
suck it!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 23, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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We all can agree on which Yosemite guide has the best cover.
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adventurous one
Trad climber
Truckee Ca.
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Apr 23, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
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A well documented, comprehensive guidebook can be of great value to a local climbing community in providing a vast array of climbing options, as well as providing an enjoyable historical read for those passing through (Or even to those who never plan to visit the area) A guidebook should be far more than just detailing the statistics of a "select" number of routes. It falls to the guidebook author to also be the local historian, because it would be completely uneconomical to write a book detailing just the history (Unless it is Yosemite, perhaps)
Select guides are very easy to produce, since the information on the most popular routes are easily at hand, requiring very little time consuming "detective" work and a minimal page count. However, rarely, though not always, do the select guidebook authors provide a thorough, well researched effort on the local climbing history. Though this type of guide may be useful to those just passing through, it is a dis-service to the local climbing community.
In this era of (some climbers) hyper over bolting of every piece of climbable rock to "mark" ones first ascent, comprehensive guidebooks can provide discouragement to (the disdainful act of) retro bolting obscure routes and help in preserving the "clean" lines and bold routes of the previous generations.
The economics of researching, writing, and producing a comprehensive guidebook are discouraging at best. Once a "select" guide is made available (usually "borrowing" from the efforts of the inclusive guidebook author) the economics of producing a comprehensive guidebook becomes even more discouraging, as it siphons off the potential customers that may have supported the greater effort of the all inclusive guidebook author. The "passing through" climber should be supportive of the local climbing communities effort to preserve the heritage of the local climbing history by supporting the comprehensive guidebook authors, even if they do not intend to climb all the routes, as it benefits all climbers.
Edit: Btw, anyone needing assistance in producing/publishing a TRULY WELL RESEARCHED, comprehensive guidebook for their local area can contact CAMP 4 PRESS for assistance.
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Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
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Apr 29, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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Select guidebooks are wrong. You telling me after all the effect I did to put up an average route and you're to busy to climb it (even after I saved you all the time and energy of putting up the routes). How are you going to learn to put up your own select route? You know there will be cleaning to be done before your 1st ascent gets into the "select" status.
-Kurt
P.S. I don't like "select" books of articles. I've already purchase the originals to support the authors and you dish 30 authors by not buying their books (same for guidebook authors).
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