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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Apr 22, 2014 - 06:33am PT
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amazing, but ... what's this about a climber wedged between two boulders?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 22, 2014 - 07:48am PT
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A human cannot remain conscious at 38,000 feet without supplemental oxygen.
And the temperature is 70 degrees below zero at 38,000 feet.
It is possible to survive in a wheelwell, but not likely.
It is possible to remain in the wheelwell when you are unconscious and the landing gear is lowered, but not very likely at all.
Stranger things have happened, though. That lad needs to be sterilized before he procreates.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Apr 22, 2014 - 08:52am PT
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That lad needs to be sterilized before he procreates.
Or cloned!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 22, 2014 - 09:58am PT
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I'm curious what the air pressure in that wheel well was. It had to be quite a bit higher than the normal pressure at 38000 feet. Which would make sense if the wheel well was one of the wing ones which is located in an area of lift.
I have not heard if he had frostbite. Reports claim he had no injuries. He certainly would have had severe frostbite if he had actually endured temperatures of -70F. If he really had no frostbite I would guess temperatures in that wheel well remained above 0 F perhaps well above. The wing wells are located close to the engines and perhaps have heated hydraulic lines running through them. Something had to keep it warmer than -70F
I am really curious what conditions he actually managed to survive. They really should measure the conditions in that wheel well at exactly where he was in it. Seems a worthwhile and simple bit of research.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Apr 22, 2014 - 10:00am PT
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This has happened before. Sometime in the late 70s a young man fleeing persecution stowed away in the landing gear wheel well just like this guy. He was in pretty bad shape but survived. If I remember correctly the earlier stow away fell out on to the tarmac after the landing gear was lowered.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Apr 22, 2014 - 10:14am PT
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Since 1947, 105 people are known to have attempted to fly inside wheel wells on 94 flights worldwide, the Federal Aviation Administration's Civil Aerospace Medical Institute says. Of those, 25 made it through, including a 9-year-old child -- a survival rate of 24%. One of the flights went as high as 39,000 feet. Two others were at 38,000 feet.
The conditions at high altitudes can put stowaways in a virtual "hibernative" state, the FAA said.
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overwatch
climber
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Apr 22, 2014 - 10:20am PT
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The new economy class?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:01am PT
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Wheelwells are not pressurized at all, and remain at ambient pressure (38,000 feet). The wheelwells are nowhere near the engines and would be at -70 deg F.
The real mystery is why they don't fall out of the wheelwell when the landing gear are lowered.
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overwatch
climber
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:11am PT
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Full body bombay chimneying?
The human body is amazing and an appropriate use of the word.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:22am PT
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Leavittation.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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SLR.. just my thoughts and curiosity here
I know they are not sealed but the wheelwells may gain air pressure due to being located in the area of lift on the underside of the wing.
I'm willing to bet he did not endure the normal ambient .2 ATM and -70F that occurs at 11,500M
On the 767 the wheelwells are located somewhat near the engines. Perhaps not near enough to gain much heat.. dunno. There may be other sources of heat dunno.
I do think it would be easy and interesting to measure the conditions in there during flight. My hypothesis is put forward and I'd love to see the measurements needed to see what really is going on in there. I could be all wrong. Testing seems worthwhile to me.
This is an amazing example of extreme survival. One the medical field should find worth investigating and trying to determine exact conditions.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:47am PT
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The real mystery is why they don't fall out of the wheelwell when the landing gear are lowered.
No mystery to me.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:48am PT
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The smoking section is where you find it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
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I know they are not sealed but the wheelwells may gain air pressure due to being located in the area of lift on the underside of the wing.
BwaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!! That made my morning, thank you!
More to the point is that this young man should be cloned.
They could call his genes the Uehli Messner Line.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
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It's possible that wheel wells are slightly pressurized due to airflow over the jet, but the effect would be trivial.
At -70 degrees, and with the air flowing by at 500-550 m.p.h., the engines are not adding any heat to the fuselage. Engine heat is getting carried away very rapidly by the airflow.
Also, you can stand right next to a jet engine, even near the tailpipe, and you'll feel very little heat. Stand directly behind the engine, in the path of the jet exhaust, and it gets amazingly hot.
I imagine that most people lose consciousness fairly quickly, and the cold protects their brain from hypoxic injury (if they survive). Therapeutic hypothermia is now an accepted mainstream treatment of cardio-pulmonary arrest.
The question is why more people don't fall out of the wheel well when the landing gear comes down. They may regain consciousness as the aircraft descends, but a lot of people do fall from the wheel well. Whether they were already dead when they fell, or were unconscious and died on impact, in not clear to me.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
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Sounds okay, about as cramped as coach but you don't need a sleeping pill for a good nights rest. Hell, you only get complimentary wine in First Class anymore and who can afford that?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
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SLR, given that he was unconscious it amazes me that he regained consciousness
on the descent to the point that he was able to ready himself for the gear
deployment. No extreme chimney tactics would be needed as there are some
nice big hinges to provide purchase but one would have to be aware enough
not to get mushed or dislodged when the gear starts unfolding, and it doesn't
take very long.
Those statistics don't enumerate all those that may not have regained
consciousness adequately to avoid the big drop.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
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The aerodynamics of the fuselage design minimize drag, and an area that has positive or negative pressure would be inducing major drag. They wind tunnel test the designs extensively as aerodynamic drag is the enemy of fuel economy.
That kid needs to consider a mountaineering career, he don't need no stinkin' oxygen, or a down jacket! He can travel light and fast
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
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DMT, see post #18.
More likely he will open a travel agency in Ethiopia or Cuba.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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No crop dusting from the flight attendants, so there's that.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
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Quick someone notify Mythbusters.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
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Another false report to create new organization called BSA to beef-up airport security and add another $50 per passenger as" security tax"
And kid doesn't remember anything
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
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The aerodynamics of the fuselage design minimize drag, and an area that has positive or negative pressure would be inducing major drag. They wind tunnel test the designs extensively as aerodynamic drag is the enemy of fuel economy.
That kid needs to consider a mountaineering career, he don't need no stinkin' oxygen, or a down jacket! He can travel light and fast
Aircraft fly.
The reason they fly is that the shape of the wing causes air pressure above the wing to be lowered and air pressure under the wing to be raised when moving forward.. thus causing lift. This air pressure differential is what holds several tons of aircraft up when flying. So the pressure increase under the wing is not insubstantial. It is also not uniform in every area.
2 of the wheelwells on the 767 are located on the underside of the wing.
How much does this affect air pressure inside the wheelwell? Dunno, Maybe very little, perhaps alot, I say measure and find out. To get an accurate idea what the boy experienced you would have to measure at the position his lungs were located. I suspect even a foot one way or the other would change the situation quite abit. You might even need a dummy crammmed in there to get it right because the pressure might be different for a void or filled volume.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
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I got a hunnerd that says it ain't gonna be a pressure difference of more than 1.5 psi. Any takers?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
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I wouldn't take that bet. But if it were raised just 1.5 PSI then that would raise the psi from 3.0 at 38000 feet to 4.5 putting him at an effective altitude of approximately 29,000 feet
That would be a huge difference physiologically. Still remarkable but much more possible to survive.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
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The reason they fly is that the shape of the wing causes air pressure above the wing to be lowered and air pressure under the wing to be raised when moving forward.. thus causing lift. This air pressure differential is what holds several tons of aircraft up when flying. So the pressure increase under the wing is not insubstantial. It is also not uniform in every area.
It is the same principle that makes a sail propel a sailboat on a tack (into the wind) It is not the pressure against the sail, rather it is the lower pressure on the top of the wing (or leeward side of the sail) that provides lift. One would think that a sailboat would go the fastest on a downwind run. A mainsail generating lift going perpendicular to the wind will be faster.
This low pressure creates huge aerodynamic drag and is unavoidable. Any other drag is to be eliminated as it only increases fuel consumption, be it holes, antennas or any other feature that changes the airflow.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
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I'm not sure to what degree there is higher pressure under or lower pressure above. Fair point. I seem to recall its a combination of both to some degree.. but I could be wrong and perhaps it is mainly lower pressure above causing the lift. I do know that this stuff varies in different areas of the wing.
I still think this is an interesting question.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
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http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_25611408/jet-wheel-stowaways-how-theyre-able-survive
"At 38,000 feet — the cruising altitude of the Hawaiian Airlines flight that the FBI says the 15-year-old took Sunday — the outside air temperature is about minus 85 degrees. The air is so thin that a person will pass out because the brain is starved of oxygen.
The plane's own machinery can aid a stowaway's survival, at least initially. Warmth radiating from the wheels, which heat up on the runway during takeoff, and from hydraulic fluid lines can moderate the temperature. But those effects dissipate, and at cruising altitude the temperature in the wheel well would be about minus 30 degrees, estimated John Hansman, a professor of aeronautics and astronautics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Unlike areas of the cargo hold that are pressurized so that pets can breathe, air in the wheel wells is essentially the same as outside the plane. An FBI spokesman in Hawaii said the boy told authorities he did not remember the flight.
And then there is the huge risk when the wheels are lowered for landing. This opens the equivalent of a trap door, turning a cramped but relatively sheltered space into one from which it would be easy to fall thousands of feet to the ground or water below.
Wheel well survivors typically find space in a recess area next to where the gear retracts, according to an FAA review of cases. The boy hopped into a Boeing 767, and it was not immediately clear how big the area is on that jet. Boeing representatives declined to comment, saying they did not want to encourage any copycat attempts."
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
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Surprised that he made it!
Agree with Dingus
"Maybe he should take up high altitude climbing?"
Erik
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 22, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
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Well that takes a bit away from my wing airpressure theory I guess lol. I would still like to know the actual conditions in there. It's beyond remarkable he survived.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 22, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
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There is a pressure differential between the top and bottom of an airfoil - only 5% or so (it varies), but that doesn't matter.
The pressure of the stationary air inside the wheel well is the same the still air outside the plane - 38000 in this case. 20% of sea level, roughly.
You might survive steerage class with 5 or 6 O2 bottles, a big ole down bag, and some pretzel sticks, but it seems the crowd that prefers this mode of travel will have no part of those crutches.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 22, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
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For all the Darwin award talk, considering that over half of Americans don't believe in the Big Bang, and well over a third don't believe in human caused global warming, evolution, or a 4.5 billion year old Earth (with a nod to Mother Jones's FB meme of the day) I'd say this kid is more norm than outlier.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
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I can't wait to see his selfies! What a view he had from the front wheel well on final!
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 22, 2014 - 04:20pm PT
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It's utterly amazing that anyone survives Steerage Class on a plane. I didn't realize anyone ever had.
Hawaii, though. Ya gotta admit - good choice.
Not understanding our upper atmosphere seems forgivable to me, in light of the tens of millions of 'normal adults' whose ignorance stretches far deeper and wider. During a partial solar eclipse years ago, I once asked 4 adults which was closer, the sun or the moon. Half got it wrong.
Then again, there is my own youth. I can recall my first backpack trip in the Sierras at 13. Altitude? UV? Radiative cooling? What? After 8 days I came out 3 shades darker, 10 lbs lighter, and burning with desire for a real sleeping bag. No planes, but I did dream of hopping freights, but never did. Probably not a bad thing.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 23, 2014 - 07:38am PT
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Hawaii, though. Ya gotta admit - good choice.
No. The guy is a retard. He was trying to get to Africa. last time I checked, Africa via Hawaii is the long way around.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 23, 2014 - 10:34am PT
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Cheerful!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 11:20am PT
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And I guess at Hawaiian the pre-flight 'walk around' is really only that.
Not only is one of the pilots required to inspect the wheel well so is a
maintenance person. It is nice to know that hinge pins and such are at
least visually good-to-go.
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| Messages 1 - 42 of total 42 in this topic |
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