Discussion Topic |
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 21, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
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Hey, I have been doing some reading and thinking about placement of bolts vs pitons. Wanted to see what other people think, and why...please comment.
I was putting up a FA and found myself in a seam where only pro I could put in was a knifeblade. I used a few of those on the pitch and left them fixed so if someone wants to repeat the route they do not have to bring a rack of pitons and a hammer. But since pitons are time bombs anyway, would it be wise to rap down after completing the pitch and replace them with a bolt?
In general I see a lot of pins that are getting older and much less bomber than they were when they were placed. And wondering if at some point those should be replaced with a bolt that would serve a longer term. Or is it wrong to replace them with a bolt but ok to hammer in another pin?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
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If you put up the route you are the one who can make the call based on your judgement of what's best for the rock, likelihood of repeats, concern for safety, etc.
Lots of factors.
But if ur gonna sink a bristler- do it before you tell the Internet!!!
Or you are trolling for office bound trad climbers here on this fine monday morning V, can't tell yet...
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
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Tricky question.
I'd say use a bolt. They suck only marginally less than fixed pins.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
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I am guilty of placing pins on FAs when maybe a bolt would be more appropriate. The pins are great for the on sight lead for the FA party because they go in quick. Future parties will probably not be bringing a hammer, so they would not be able to test the pins. I like your idea of going back and replacing the pins with bolts for critical locations. An exception would be if the pin is located somewhat close to bomber gear below it, such that if it failed, the fall distance would not be that much greater or land you on a ledge. If the pin is near a seep or damp area then for sure replace with bolt after FA because it will rot out quickly if left in place.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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V... Its up to you.
IMHO.... a blade in a seam, is a time bomb, a few winters and vola, you can remove it with your hand.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
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Pins are good for protection (or hanging off of) while you place a proper bolt
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
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A bolt will better mitigate the possibility of injury as well as preserve the original crack over the long term.
My experience is that such well placed loner bolts evoke more love than hate from the parties who follow.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Sonora
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
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Definitely a bolt. It is far better for the long-term health of your route.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
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i would place a bolt. over the long haul, a well-placed bolt will be lower impact than a pin that is periodically removed and replaced. removing/replacing the pins will eventually give you a hold and quite possibly change the route. the bolthole can be more easily filled, if need be.
fix pins, and you need to recommend a hammer on the gear list for future parties. the more folks carrying hammers, the greater the chance of other bad things happening.
the old robbins mantra, natural pro, pins, bolts in descending order of preference, was a reasonable guideline in the early 1960s. but the preference for pins over bolts then had far less to due with ecological concerns and more with the fact that bolts could be placed anywhere, thus freeing climbers from the need to follow natural lines.
with the rise of clean climbing, the rule sometimes because used as a means of limiting damage to the rock. but fifty years later, it's pretty clear that in many if not most cases, where one faces a choice between a pin and a bolt, a bolt may well represent a "cleaner" choice in terms of sustainability.
the main argument for fixed pins now is a narrowly historic one, namely that the guidelines of the late fifties / early sixties for yosemite, ought to be preserved in aspic. or the related argument, that pitoncraft is a crucial part of climbing heritage and ought to be a requisite skill for future generations.
lots of folks here on st are comfortable with those arguments. but i wouldn't let that override what seems to be your own judgment here. if it's the kind of route likely to get lots of repeats, i'd replaced the KBs with good bolts. if it's an obscurity, i wouldn't worry about it.
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Dublin,Ca.
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
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Hi Vitaliy,
If you think your route is good, worth doing and you plan to tell people about it, then I would definitely replace the pins with bolts.
If the route isn't that good, not worth repeating, far from the road, and you don't plan on sending people out on it, then maybe it's not worth bashing more bolts into.
In the end, it's your route. You get to decide. But that being said, is it a significant contribution to the climbing in that area? Is the climb worth bolting? How would you feel if some one got hurt on your route because one of the pins pulled on a fall? Would just a bolt or two make it safe enough instead of replacing all the pins with bolts? Will the old pin placements take RP's now? Is it likely that anybody is going to do this route. Did you do this route for you, for the climbing community, or just to claim doing an other route?
These are the questions I ask myself when trying to make these decisions. No easy answers.
Good job on your new route, on going ground up and for putting some thought into what's going to make it right.
 Eric Gabel
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
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The Law of FA thread is too long. Since my question is pretty specific I think starting a new thread is fine.
I think everyone has slightly different reasons for climbing, path they take (sport, trad, bouldering, ice, aid, etc) and beliefs about how routes should be put up, and that's fine. My personal reasons I guess is to challenge self, damage the rock less, BUT hopefully put up a route that others would enjoy doing. Which would involve adding bolts or replacing junk gear with bolts if it is reasonable and would help someone enjoy the route more.
The gray territory is climbs with old pins that others say could be moved around by hand. Seems like they were bomber before but with use/time became much less safe for people who are about to take falls on them. Seems wise to replace them with a bolt that would serve more generations(damage rock less in a long run), but than in the same time I am sure people have different views about that. Maybe it just depends route to route, and if it is possible to replace the pin with another pin of slightly larger size, or hopefully a clean placement.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
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Another alternative. If it is not a route you would recommend, go back and remove all evidence anyone was ever there.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
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And if u do place a bolt do it properly- make sure that there is always a QuickDraw permanently attached to it.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
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So are you doing a first ascent or are you making a route for others to do?
Top down or ground up?
A bolt is a permanent fixture, a pin in a crack is NOT. Abandon like a stuck nut or friend - yes. Fixed, more a ?.
It the pin is in a straight in crack or good vertical corner you could place, clean, and replace the pin, clean-- and make a brass nut placement thereby creating a clean placement.
I personally believe you should stick clean pieces in always. Climbing demands a rack carried.
I know others who feel an eight bolt route with two clean pieces should just have ten bolts. I do not subscribe to that- what do you believe? (I also know a hundred climbers who thing RP/HB brass nuts are not clean pro so there.
I climb for my ascent.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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Fixed blades=Scarey=No.
Fixed arrows,angles etc=No problem.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
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(I also know a hundred climbers who thing RP/HB brass nuts are not clean pro so there.
Troll or just lots of acquaintances who don't understand what clean pro is?
- - - -
If it's a freeclimb, maybe no pin or bolt and list it as an "r" pitch?
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
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Fixed arrows,angles etc=No problem.
Except most LA or angle placements can be made with modern clean gear.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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I agree with Eric's line of thought.
Also, use stainless steel bolts and hangers, otherwise you are also creating a maintenance problem like a fixed pin.
They are fairly cheap these days.
Don't go for "plated". A few weeks ago we climbed a route done in 2008 with plated bolts and hangers and they were already rusting pretty bad.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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The gray territory is climbs with old pins that others say could be moved around by hand. Seems like they were bomber before but with use/time became much less safe for people who are about to take falls on them. Seems wise to replace them with a bolt that would serve more generations(damage rock less in a long run), but than in the same time I am sure people have different views about that. Maybe it just depends route to route, and if it is possible to replace the pin with another pin of slightly larger size, or hopefully a clean placement.
This is the real question we should be discussing imho. How many times can you replace the pin until you get a decent placement. We shouldn't be creating placements like this. It's bullshit imo. It's the same as chipping a hold or enhancing a hook edge. Sure a bolt damages the rock too, but it can be replaced time and time again, and if you use the right hardware you can even re-use the same hole!
It the pin is in a straight in crack or good vertical corner you could place, clean, and replace the pin, clean-- and make a brass nut placement thereby creating a clean placement.
So what you're saying is you'd rather damage the crack until the point where you don't have to anymore and from there on it's only clean protection. Kinda hypocritical don't you think?
I personally believe you should stick clean pieces in always. Climbing demands a rack carried.
Even if that means damaging the rock to get to the point where it accepts gear? Should i get a chisel and start manufacturing trad placements at my local sport crag?
V with your current dilemma i think you should set the bolt for a pin precedent. It'll last longer and less damage to the rock.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
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Put in the pins then pull them when your done. Let someone else put in their own pins or sac up and climb past it without gear. Bolts should be left for when there is not other gear specially if it is mostly crack. Or rap bolt the whole thing I don't care but less bolts the better if you want a trad route.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
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Make sure you place bolts responsibly.......(Beer, bolts, and babes....)..
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 21, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
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Lol nice bolts Todd. :)
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Andy Middleton
Trad climber
Cow Hampshire
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Apr 21, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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We looked at that one on the left - way too runout, so we ended up on the rightmost rout. The one in the middle i don't think was there at the time - what's it called.. grade?
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Trad is Rad
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo California
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
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Better ask Tom.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
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Even if it is an extremely remote area with very few repeat ascents, a bolt is still preferable, although you could just use pins and then remove them, since the rock would not wear out over time with only one or two repeats over a period of years.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
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Pound them out until angles or arrows work
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Apr 21, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
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Knifeblades are especially bad over time. A few years ago while rebolting a route at the Pinnacles I removed a knifeblade and the area of the pin inside the crack was almost rusted through. The pin was about 20 years old.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Apr 21, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
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Big Mike-
You are missing the idea. I am not advocating pin scars in the form of serenity crack.
If you drive a blade in to knock off irregularities then a ball nut can be placed is that enhancement in the same way as chipping the jardine traverse? In the desert I have started with blades and advanced to a 3/4" angle before a body weight placement emerged. That type of sugar wont take a bolt to begin with.
I guess I am too used to sandstone aid where you try all means to preserve a placement so the next one is hand placed or a clean piece.
and yes I know plenty of folks who don't have faith in much less than a 1/2" bolt every 4'. I know them, don't climb with them.
Best of luck drilling new holes in the Superstitions. That mentality could expand to many areas.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
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Bolt please.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Apr 21, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
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Bruce, knowing the rock at the Pinnacles, I would be surprised if the knifeblade was good for more than body weight - even when new!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 21, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
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Urmas , you are not a believer.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
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PS: Would you put your ass on the line taking a whipper on a ... Blade that is 12 months or so rusted? Who the fk takes a hammer into the back country these days to pound in any loose fixed pins?
LOL
My friend was doing a really hard route on the Hulk last year where one of the cruxy sections had a pin that was garbage.
Adam lead the first pitch of Eye of the Storm, a better warmup compared to pitch one of Venturi and climbed the short pitch to the terrace. This set me up for the .11+ traverse on Venturi (pitch 3). Spirits were high until I went to clip the fixed piton and it wiggled and almost came out. Yikes! I went back to the ledge and found a big rock to solve my problem. Protected temporarily with a body weight 000 C3, I whacked the piton back in and sent the traverse.
http://www.dreaminvertical.com/2013/09/hulk-o-rama-round-two/
You can't just pull it out and smash in the bolt, but it seems like a reasonable thing to do.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 21, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
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Interesting question. We all know that pitons tend to loosen up with the seasons and anyone climbing in Yosemite can easily see the results of repeated piton placements. Oddly though, there seems to be almost a glorification of pin hole routes in the Valley. Several of them get four and five stars for quality and there is even a passage in a guide referring to a "fantastic pin hole route." I, for one, think they are abysmal.
You are the kind of climber who can make sound judgements. If there is no other choice, I would opt for the very judicious use of a bolt or two. Knifeblade placements today become very ugly and unnatural finger pockets in a surprisingly short time.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Apr 21, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
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A couple of 1/4" button heads should do the trick . . . preferably with Leeper hangers.
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Rudbud
Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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I think you should pound some bolts in by hand. I was told by this kid that its super cool to drill by hand even though he's never actually done it.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 21, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
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I think the idea of fixed pitons is making less and less sense, and the issue, which I think is both delicate and complicated, is how to best preserve the nature of trad routes when one decides to replace fixed pins with bolts. There are a number of inequivalent issues, most of which apply to already-established routes with fixed pins.
(1) The fixed pins could be removed and not replaced and the route could just become more runout then before. In popular areas, this could produce a hue and cry from people who are used to having protection in a spot that has become less well-protected, but I think the question is, going forward, whether the added risks are aligned with the general standards of the area for the grade involved.
(2) The fixed pins could be removed and not replaced and the route protected with marginal passive gear, eg brassies, microcams, ballnuts, that afford a lower level of protection then the removed pitons. Same hue and cry as above possible, with the same comment about appropriateness.
(3) The pitons could be removed and not replaced and the route protected with good passive gear. You wouldn't think there'd be a hue and cry about this, but if the piton in question is in a strenuous position, then placing the good passive gear would make the route effectively harder and possibly more risky.
(4) The fixed pins could be removed and replaced with bolts in more or less the same position as the pins had been in. (I understand something like this has been the case in Frankenjura.) In particular, bolts are not used to make the climb better protected than it was with fixed pins.
(5) The fixed pins could be removed and bolts placed in more optimal positions than the fixed pins were in.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
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(6) The fixed pins could be removed and bolts placed in less optimal positions than the fixed pins were in.
e.g. Rollerball at Joshua Tree...
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Apr 21, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
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Personally, I've had more rusting angles pop on me on Yosemite walls than rusty blades...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 21, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
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FA gets to call the shots on this one. Totally depends on what he wants to leave behind. Personally if the pin is a critical piece I turn it into a bolt and use the pin on annother FA somewhere...
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 21, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
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LOL ^^^^^^^^
He was putting up 12R routes when he put up that 5.9.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 21, 2014 - 11:06pm PT
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(6) The fixed pins could be removed and bolts placed in less optimal positions than the fixed pins were in.
Greg, that possibility didn't occur to me. Is this a question of there being no limit to human stupidity, or was the region where the pins were placed in some way not suitable for bolts?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
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First Ascents are done for lots of reasons in lots of styles... there aren't any hard and fast rules.
If you are going to leave something to the community, however, you should equip it with the best gear you can at the time you're doing the route. Replacing the pins for bolts would be a good thing.
If you are out having fun and you wouldn't expect anyone else would do your route, how could it matter?
Here's some old hardware we found on a line we thought was an FA... obviously it wasn't up to this point. Higher above, however, it probably was...
can't quite date the pin, but certainly not earlier than the 1970s, and probably not later than the 1980s...
...maybe a good story behind it too, but we'll probably never know.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:15am PT
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Greg, that possibility didn't occur to me. Is this a question of there being no limit to human stupidity, or was the region where the pins were placed in some way not suitable for bolts? I think it was simple - the pin was super reachy and hard to clip, so if they placed it to the right of the crack it would have made the clip significantly easier. Being a popular route at Joshua Tree, this would likely have led to chopping. So instead they placed it left of the crack, making the clip harder.
I've had discussions with a good number of FA folks on piton replacement with bolts. Some are all for it, some give conditional approval, some say no. The latter tend to be where the original piton was less than stellar, so replacement with a bolt of any type would have made the route a good bit safer (for instance the thin knifeblade on the 5.11d R pitch of Bombs Over Tokyo, one of the boldest leads of the era). Simply replacing the piton with a new one was fine in that situation.
It's always important to take this on a case-by-case basis. Many old piton placements are fairly bomber clean gear placements, and of course should not be replaced with a bolt. Just like a fair number of old bolts next to perfect cracks were not needed at all once cams were invented.
And there is a long history in some areas of not replacing pitons even if the route becomes more dangerous and difficult to protect. Yosemite and Tuolumne are such areas, with a good number of examples of fairly popular routes becoming more runout and difficult to protect. This is only to be expected considering that many of the routes were aid climbs where people just left a lot of iron in the rock, and when freeing the aid line, who wouldn't clip the piton?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:17am PT
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Here are a couple photos of the knifeblade from the Pinnacles:
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:26am PT
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untrustworthy piece of metal that is left behind for the safety of the unsuspecting
B.Kay, Seems that the "unsuspecting" should stay in the safety of a gym or hire a guide.
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:26am PT
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I've pulled more than a few old pins by hand. I've never been able to pull an old bolt by hand.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:29am PT
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What route at Pinnacles was the kb from?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:39am PT
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The second to last pitch of Bill's Bad Bolts.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:40am PT
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B. Kay,
You said "unsuspecting". I pulled out two old pins off the North Face of Fairview Dome in 82, they looked suspicious to me, just like a few bolts, blocks and holds have.
One year later from a non expanding splitter? May have been your ears ringing and not the pin when you placed it.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:59am PT
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Cracks expand and contract, sometimes in hours
I am going to use this from now on whenever I can't remove a piece of gear.
Sh#t! The crack contracted!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:06am PT
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Unless you're talking 304/316 SS then it's entirely dependent on the rock and conditions. Having checked lots of bolts and pins, in sea-level, western Oregon basalt, pitons by and large way out-performed 5-pc., non-stainless bolts for longevity. The caveat being, that was only the case for medium & long Lost Arrows and Bugaboos. All size angles were almost universally bad due to the minimal surface area in contact with the rock; small pins of all types were dubious; about 15% of Knifeblades were bad, 50% need to be reset. But still, in raw numbers, the pins held up way better than the bolts, most of which were corroded, spinning shite. The only exceptions were old, split-shank buttonheads of some really hard alloy which would all still be bullet-proof if it weren't for the fact all the ancient hangers on them have basically rotted.
But, that's in this locale - in other locales, climates, and altitudes your mileage will probably vary considerably. Bottom line for me is if you're going to go to the trouble of placing a bolt, then make it SS.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:06am PT
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I've done several routes on remote unclimbed desert crags in the last year, leaving a few fixed pins. Since these were undoubtedly first ascents and most probably also last ascents, I see no problem. They are left as sort of an anonymous "kilroy was here" statement in the vastness of an uncaring universe. Perhaps a few millenia down the time stream some archaeologist will ponder the significance of the anomalous rust stains.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:15am PT
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oh..... you rather skillfully avoided answering the question again I see
You are gonna laugh, but here it is...I like the way they look.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:43am PT
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Cracks expand and contract, sometimes in hours
Back in the mid 80's Todd Skinner was trying to put up some difficult routes at Devil's Tower that required heinous stemming with only thin seams for pro. He told me that they would place fixed pins on one day and then come back the next day and pluck them out by hand.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:55am PT
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There are some routes where the cracks expand and contract daily by a large amount. Some Tuolumne examples: the anchor for Black Angel, the anchor on top of the approach pitch of You Asked For It/Swinger/Lechlinski Flake, the first pitch of Just Say No on Drug Dome. Don Reid has a big collection of squished stoppers from Tuolumne (I only have a couple). Grant Hiskes pulled multiple fixed stopper anchors off of Black Angel over the years. You can get gear fully fixed, then come back in the morning when it's cooler and pull the gear no problem. We got a #1 Camalot fully fixed while rebolting You Asked For It (left the first pitch anchor since we wouldn't need it higher, and by the time we rapped it was fixed), then came back in the morning and the cam pulled out with a centimeter to spare - and the cam was squished/deformed.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 22, 2014 - 06:01am PT
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very simple. If you expect the climb to be repeted and the gear is critical gear make it the best that you can or give permission for it to be updated. If you are an egotistical prick, leave crap gear and tell everyone (including the women) who comes after you to sac up and be a hero like yourself. These are choices we get to make every day in life. To be an as#@&%e or to be a decent person. Do I hold the door or slam it in someones face. Do I grab the last brownie or offer it to someone else.... we all should have learned this stuff in pre school.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 22, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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Even in the presence of the data from Joe Healy, in general the holding power of fixed pitons seems to have a far greater standard deviation then that of bolts. You don't know in either case for sure (assuming you don't have a hammer) how good the piece is, but an SS bolt is more likely to be a better bet in most areas.
I think I'm as allergic to bolts as anyone, having been raised with the Art Gran ethic that "even a single bolt mars a lovely line." But the attitudes towards fixed pitons in the U.S. were forged (the term is used advisedly) at a time when climbers expected, going forward, that the era of fixed pitons was over and everyone would be placing and removing the pitons needed for protection and aid. This expectation, which lay at the heart of Chouinard's development of chromemolly pitons, proved to be short-lived, as the unanticipated damage done by repeated placements and removals became all too obvious.
Clean gear saved the day, but also resurrected the discarded idea that fixed pitons could be a solution to at least some protection problems. But the perspective for fixed pins being a solution was still conditioned by the history of climbers carrying hammers and knowing how to test placements, and attitudes about fixed pitons never really evolved once the hammers disappeared and it became the norm that an accomplished climber might very well never have placed a piton, much less have any basis for judging one.
I naturally feel, as an old climber, that tradition plays an important role in shaping the development of the sport, but sometimes the underpinnings of traditional attitudes change enough to render the logic of those attitudes invalid. I think we are at that point with regard to fixed pitons. With perhaps a few local exceptions such as the ones mentioned by Joe, agreed-upon fixed protection should usually be the best bolt available. There are plenty of potentially acrimonious debates left to be had, the devil being in the very tricky details of "agreed-upon."
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
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Greg Barnes, what do you think will happen with 3rd pitch of The Salathe wall once the key piton falls out? I heard of people saying they can move it with their hand, but than I saw someone whip on it and it seemed solid to me when I clipped it. If it does fall out, will it be replaced with a bolt or someone will try to hammer in a piton? Just curious.
Also, do you know if bolts on the old Salathe Route (on Half Dome) have been replaced? I heard it was an obscure classic that is almost never done now because the bolts are super old(?).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
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some of the bolts aren't there...
on the old Salathe route on Half Dome...
are you interested in going up there with on old duffer to find out?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 22, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
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A bad aspect of fixed pro in general is the tendency to look at its external appearance and assume it's good; it's a bad assumption over time. And in that respect, these days, fixed pins tend to get the hairy eyeball while bolts most often get a pass which isn't good given how many bad bolts there likely are out there at this point. But what's often forgotten in a discussion like this is the fact that both fixed pins and bolts both need to be maintained over the long haul. Both need to be checked and replaced at some frequency over a timespan of decades (or possibly just reset in the case of pins). My experience was roughly 25% of the pins I checked were bad and needed to be replaced or reset whereas close to 80% of the 5pcs were corroded spinners (one broke from just the weight of the wrench as I adjusted my leash). The newer bolts from the 90s were the worst by far whereas pins from the 70s were regularly still truck. Again YMMV.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 22, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
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Thats interesting stuff. To be clear, you are talking about a heavily salted sea cliff environment? No, rather an often quite wet Columbia River Gorge.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 22, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
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Hard to say really, maybe 10% were badly downward-angled placements with silicone sealant and multiple washers attempting to compensate, but the odd thing was that the most corroded bolts were placed in the 90s with bolts from the 70s and 80s still bad, but less so. I can only guess some issue with the alloys of those later bolts.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 22, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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Vitaliy, not sure on SW face of Half Dome, Doug Hemken and Andy Davis were going to work on it a few years back, but I'm not sure what they did (if anything) because they were having trouble figuring out which bolts were original and which were added, and they didn't want to mistakenly replace a non-original bolt.
As far as particular key pitons, it will be a case by case issue…certainly some pitons are absolutely essential and will need to be replaced one way (piton) or another (bolt). Another good example is the pin on Hoodwink in Tuolumne.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
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are you interested in going up there with on old duffer to find out?
I would be interested in going there to climb the route and replacing whatever bolts are crap. As I understand it is hazy which bolts were put in on the FA vs after (on the FFA?). FA also hammered in pitons to built belay anchors and protect the climb. Common sense should be used regarding which bolts to replace vs chop to preserve the rock and keep the climbing on the route clean. With modern gear, the climb should protect reasonably well to not warrant an X rating I suppose, as long as the belay anchors are solid? Ed, if you want to go there this summer or fall let me know. We can than draw an updated topo with new/old belay stations and modern required rack included.
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 22, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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Greg,
Hoodwink isn't the best example. There's a bomber grey alien placement within a few feet. If that pin goes it should just stay gone IMO.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
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"Thailand maybe. I recall they had serious problems much to do with electrolysis corrosion. I wonder what the solution was in the end? Glue ins?"
Yes. Glue ins for Thailand
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Apr 22, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
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I personally prefer drilled angle pins in my home environs to bolts, fwiw. Shitty pins, though, SUCK! And i would prefer to see these replaced with better bolts (except on most pure aid routes).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 22, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
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Titanium glueins for Thailand, the stainless glueins did no better than stainless mechanical bolts.
I know that placement ruppel, it is nowhere near as good as that piton.
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Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 23, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
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Recently in Eldorado Canyon State Park the local climbing organization ACE had a two applications for the community to vote on removal of pins on two existing routes that could easily and safely be supplemented with natural gear. Both applications lost. It's interesting to read the comments from the votes.
Pin removal #1 application and votes.
Pin removal #2 application and votes.
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feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
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Apr 23, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
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Due to the low frequency of climbers in my neck of limestone chose, I've tended to favor (solid) blades over bolts. Most of the local climbs see one or two ascents every 20 years, so the chances are about 50-50 that were they bolts, every subsequent climbing party would need to bring a full bolt kit and epoxy / rock dust for each route rather than just a hammer and a couple of pins.
To be honest though, even on routes I know will be popular, I have a really hard time with the visuals and vibe change caused by bolts. My solution is to spend much more time after a quality ascent thinking through how to keep the fixed / clean gear placements in harmony with the route's "vibe". In general, to me, any exclusive policy not cognizant of local contexts (and chemistry) is stupid.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 24, 2014 - 12:50am PT
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Recently in Eldorado Canyon State Park the local climbing organization ACE had a two applications for the community to vote on removal of pins on two existing routes that could easily and safely be supplemented with natural gear. Both applications lost. It's interesting to read the comments from the votes.
Pin removal #1 application and votes.
Pin removal #2 application and votes.
Wow, interesting indeed. I'm amazed at the plurality of no votes and the reasons. It seems evident from the photos that neither pin offers protection that can't be obtained from modern gear, and I would have thought that a "true love for the canyon" would motivate, as much as possible, returning the canyon climbs to their natural states.
As an old fogey, I'm naturally touched at the inclination to "preserve history," but think that notes in guidebooks, magazine articles, and posts on Supertopo are a more appropriate place for that. And really, what "history," is, in fact, "preserved" by the presence of a pin placed at an unknown (and possibly not at all historical) time by an unknown climber?
Some of the other reasons recorded make even less sense to me. Pins should be left in place as educational aids to help trad leaders learn to "deal" with fixed pins? The sad fact is that without a hammer, no one can judge how good a fixed pin is, and anyone who thinks they are or will become "proficient" at "judging the integrity" of fixed pins is fooling themselves at least half the time. There is absolutely nothing to be learned by having fixed pins in place.
Pins should be left in place to help with route-finding? Is route-finding suddenly not part of trad climbing any more? And in Eldo, of all places, where the routes can be seen as dotted lines of chalked handholds from across the canyon, are steel signposts really needed as well?
Some people even seem to be offering an argument for the presence of fixed pins as a source of adventure (presumably by virtue of the pins' unreliability). If you think about it, this implies that the climb itself is an insufficient source of adventure and so unreliable steel gear must be driven into cracks and left there for years in order to properly up the ante.
The rest of this thread addresses the genuinely thorny issues surrounding fixed pins whose presence is deemed essential for protection and whether, given the necessity of something, that bolts wouldn't be a better solution. But there is no apparent protection reason for the Eldorado fixed pins in the link, and the arguments for keeping them in place anyway are, to me at least, bizarre.
It is ironic that people like me, who actually might have placed some of those historic pitons, find themselves advocating for their removal, while those who have no historical "investment" in preserving the relics seem to want to keep them around.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Apr 24, 2014 - 02:15am PT
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Vitaliy and/or Ed, I'd go up that route in a heartbeat to replace the bolts. Lets make it happen. Besides, I want a closer look at On the Edge, it's on the radar.
As for your bolt issue, this is the approach I've gone with.
I don't climb for other people. Therefore I'm not into manufacturing "designer routes". If I didn't need the bolt or used some marginal gear for protection, then that's what I leave behind. Unless I plan on repeating the route sometime myself and don't want to trust that crap again. In that case I'd replace the KB's with bolts if it suited myself. However, here's where I depart from other peoples thinking.
A lot of times I don't place a bolt or use something like a shitty KB for pro because I'm on a time restraint or I'm just too lazy to stop and drill a bolt and comfortable with climbing without one. There's a lot of reasons why I might choose not to place fixed gear or leave fixed gear that won't last long. But I know it's not out of the question for someone who might repeat the route in the future to have a different opinion about the gear. So my thought on the subject is; you let the rock dictate the protection. Plain and simple. If you can repeat the route ground up like I did, find a stance and hand drill a bolt, go for it if you think you really need it. If you can't find a stable stance and it's too bold for you, come back later when you're better prepared. Just don't drop a rope down and retro bolt something just because it's too stiff for you. As for your situation with the KB's. If you think you're going to repeat the route sometime in the future and would rather have a bolt than trust that blade again, then pop in a bolt. Otherwise, it's not your problem.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 24, 2014 - 08:53am PT
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Plain and simple. If you can repeat the route ground up like I did, find a stance and hand drill a bolt, go for it if you think you really need it. If you can't find a stable stance and it's too bold for you, come back later when you're better prepared.
Sala, are you a stance only climber? Where do you climb? Stance is my game.
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feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
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Apr 24, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
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Werner, those survey results are interesting, especially in relation to your comment that some of the FA's think differently than the newer climbers not part of the original history.
I guess pins (even new ones) put off an historical aura bolts (even old ones) don't. Some things in human nature aren't purely rational.
Personally, I'm rather comfortable with the irrational side of my nature and have learned not to sweat the logical contradictions associated with some of my aesthetics.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Apr 24, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
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Headed a little off topic here.
Charlie D's comments on the Route Beta for Deception at Lovers Leap.
"BTW the Direct (5.8/5.9) now has a fixed pin at the crux. Protection was tricky but solid, it now has a bomber piton for those more dubious about thin pro. I have no idea who placed it but found it there last year. There's also a new fixed ring angle on the last pitch alternative (out right) up from Bushy Ledge on the East Wall."
I was hoping to take a look at the pin on Deception Direct on Saturday but now the weather is crapping out. Depending on where the pin is placed it could really mess up this crack. The rock is a bit thin and would just break out.
Anybody know who placed this pin? It should not be....
Not sure about the second added pin on East Wall.
Erik
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Impaler
Social climber
Berkeley
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Apr 24, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
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This is a pretty good topic to discuss. I personally have an opinion about several pitches in the valley that could be improved with placing a bolt or moving some belays that aren't in very good spots.
1. 3rd pitch of Salathe. I've whiped on the mank there and so far it holds, but it's ugly and new stoppers keep getting added there over the years (as well as old ones rotting away). That should really be replaced with a bolt or two. It doesn't change the character of aid climbing since either way you clip fixed gear, however ugly rotten slings and stoppers with broken cables are just garbage.
2. Last pitch of Astroman needs a bolt to replace the mank copperheads protecting a very dangerous spot. Nobody aids that route any more anyway.
3. A bit more controversial and tangential to the OP, but would be a good improvement to the route: some belays on the Salathe wall could be moved to a natural ledge that is very close. For example, pitch 15 hanging belay is 8 feet above an awesome ledge. Pitch 16 has a bolted hanging belay in the middle of it that appears to serve no purpose and should be removed. Pitch 5 has two lines of bolts: the one used currently and the old 1/4-inchers to the left that are probably from the FA. Pitch 20 belay (top of the Spire) is a bunch of fixed junk equalized with slings. If we are going to have fixed gear there, might as well put in two bolts. The great roof on the nose has two bolted belays one right next to the other. Lower one should be removed.
Any thoughts on this? I'd be happy to do the work, but I feel that a community agreement needs to be reached first.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 24, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
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I haven't read all this yet to know if anybody has noted, but we use pitons (aka Tuning Forks) to remove bolts.
Does that help?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 24, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
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Titanium lost arrows for longevity. Drill them and use as hangers, everyone is happy.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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This issue of pin scars and bolts and minimizing protection has been vastly overblown. While respecting the ghosts of climbers past, there is not much natural about modern rock climbing. It is a contrived sport. Even wandering free solo in remote locations with no one else knowing is still depending on vast amounts of collective experience and engineering in climbing shoes. Accept that fact and engineer routes as safe and fun as possible for others to appreciate. Intentionally escalating risk is a fools game. Climbing is adequately dangerous without contriving to make it more so. As Layton Kor liked to say, the best climbers are the ones having the most fun.
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Rankin
Social climber
Winston-Salem, North Carolina
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Changing a pin to a bolt changes the character of a route, and is generally to be avoided. On important routes we replace with a titanium pin, which are hard to find of course. They are a permanent solution though. Otherwise, a thoroughly painted pin will last for decades in good rock. Only if the pin cannot be reasonably replaced would I go for a bolt.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I certainly agree with much of what you say Tom. Climbing is contrived and the endless debates about whether a pin or bolt should be placed are paradigm examples of "First World problems."
Having said that, I will say that pin scars are a lasting legacy of the means that climbers had to safeguard themselves decades ago. Modern gear may not be more natural but it does better preserve the natural quality of the rock. Early pioneers, yourself included, would gladly have eschewed pins for other means had they been available.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Yes, Jim, and you do seem to be having a lot of fun! I was kinda embarrassed upon first seeing camming protection devices, as I had made extensive attempts to invent something like that...
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