Elon Musk

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moosedrool

climber
lost, far away from Poland
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 20, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
For President?

Maybe not, but he has a vision, for sure!

From Wikipedia:

After reading philosophers Hegel, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche during his mid-teens, Musk briefly became depressed with the lack of answers to the large questions of life, such as the reason for existence. After coming to this conclusion, Musk decided that perhaps the reason for the lack of good answers was that mankind was not yet at the point to be able to ask the right question. Musk's philosophy is that if global consciousness can be expanded, perhaps in the future mankind will be able to ask the right question. Musk considers the internet, renewable energy and space exploration as the methods which have the potential to have the most impact in this sense. The internet can serve as a global nervous system, renewable energy can expand the timeframe within which mankind can try to ask the right questions before running into economical or ecological collapse, and space exploration can serve as a backup for life itself. Musk also considers becoming a spacefaring civilization as an important step in evolution itself, akin to life first crawling onto land.

Andrzej

Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 20, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
Don't his cars catch on fire?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 20, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
Well, Elon's wanting to colonize Mars is far preferable to all the other politicians who have wanted to colonize my azz.
Karla

climber
Colorado
Apr 20, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
I believe there have been ~3 Tesla car fires, gas combustion automobiles...

http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safety-rating-any-car-ever-tested
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 20, 2014 - 10:55pm PT
Don't his cars catch on fire?

Not as often as many others.

I had a car burn up at -40F Dodge it was. When the fire department got done it was embedded in over a foot of ice.. pretty cool.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:45am PT
The first two goals are laudable, the third unrealistic for a variety of reasons.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 03:15am PT
His views, as represented above, appear to me as kind of charmingly quaint and somewhat dated and old- fashioned.
dhayan

climber
los angeles, ca
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:13am PT
People like this are extremely dangerous
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:24am PT
^^^ Please elucidate. Who is dangerous?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Spacefaring will have to solve the speed issue if we ever to get out of this solar system. The next star, Alpha Centuria, is four light years away......since light travels at 186,000 miles a second, that's quite a haul.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:24am PT
People like this are extremely dangerous

Expression of idiocy made possible by "dangerous people".
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:40am PT
Not born in America. But neither was Ted Cruz. Perhaps it won't matter anymore.

Susan
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:56am PT
Why would he even want to be president? Seems like he's doing fine without wading into that quicksand.

He just needs to be friends with a president.

(chill...+1)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:59am PT
Elon Musk is the kind of visionary businessman we need more of in the world these days.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 21, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
But, Philo, he's a capitalist!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
But not a Vulture.
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Apr 21, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
Musk has said that he thinks that the future of electric cars will not be with batteries, but rather supercapacitors. Capacitors do have some important advantages; they charge up quickly and don't wear out.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
That is interesting take on things:
Google co-founder and CEO Larry Page says he'd rather leave his savings to inventor Elon Musk, CEO of SpaceX and founder of Tesla, when he dies than to a charity.
http://mashable.com/2014/03/20/larry-page-ted-2014/

(There's nothing special about the link--just the first one I saw that describes the story, which I already knew about.)

Maybe there's a dark side we don't know about, but Musk seems like a great American (or Canadian or S. African or whatever).
Climberdude

Trad climber
Fresno, CA
Apr 21, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
For those of you who are worried about the Tesla car catching fire, you should be more worried about the internal gasoline or diesel engine car (or motorcycle) you drive everyday catching fire. If we had the regulatory safety standards in place today but had to come up with a motive power source for a car, a vehicle using flammable fuels such as gasoline or diesel would never be allowed. The internal combustion engine gained acceptance in motor vehicles before there were safety regulations regarding flammable fuels in moving vehicles.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 24, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
Elon Musk sighted in L.A.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.laweekly.com/informer/2014/04/24/nude-guy-in-tesla-stops-traffic-on-pch-video
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 24, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
I guess if you can afford the car you can afford the drugs too.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 24, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
I'm on board... wish it could be with more. Maybe soon...
Sanskara

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
I'm not much for big business in general so for me to like a guy like this is rare. However this guy seems alright, I have listened to stuff on NPR about him and watched a 20/20 or 60 minutes special on him and I like his story. His vision well we will see. I could give a sh#t about going to space,

I agree he will far surpass Steve Jobs with regard to thinking outside the box and changing the world we live in. That is if he does not go bankrupt in the process. I think it is quite possible he does as he has the type personality to just go for it as he really believes in himself and his ideas. Weather his impact end up being a positive or negative has yet to been seen. Imop his visions and intent could lead to some very scary sh#t..

Only time will tell.

Humans just can't seem to ever be satisfied leaving well enough alone..

Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Apr 24, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
^^^ Sanskara,

What does this mean...
They is if he goes not go bankrupt in the process? As for if how he changes the wood will prove to be a good or bad thing is yet yo be seen imop..

Please to edit for clarity. Many thanks 'cause I dig what you're thrown down a goodly bit of the time.


--Sanskara edit: Thanks for mending the autocorrect-jibberish!
Sanskara

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
I can't spell and I use an iPad with the auto correct function on. I should just turn it off.

Moose you ever read The China Study. I think you might like it. I suggest you read it as the same authors most currant publication "Whole" I am almost positive you will enjoy. It just works to read The China Study first.

Even if you don't buy everything in either of the books they both offer a perspective on health and nutrition that can not be ignored.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:27am PT
Donini: Spacefaring will have to solve the speed issue if we ever to get out of this solar system. The next star, Alpha Centuria, is four light years away......since light travels at 186,000 miles a second, that's quite a haul.

Yes, intra-/inter-galactic spacefaring is essentially time travel and if you can't manage that you're not really going to be going anywhere. Hell, the Voyagers have just left the Solar System which basically means they've arrived at the nearest bus stop.

The other issue is the fact that humans are composite beings whose cellular makeup is only about 10% human; the other 90% are various microbes and fungi - i.e. we are wholly a product of, and bound to, this planet's ecology - you can't take it with you and you can't recreate it once you arrive somewhere else.

Think of it this way. Go to the store and buy enough food to really load your refrigerator up. Then unplug it and come back in say, forty days, and see what you've got cooking. That's pretty much exactly how your average 'starship' is going to fare on a short forty year jaunt. Hell, just a trip to Mars and back is likely to make the inside of your climbing shoes on a hot day seem like the latest perfume out of Paris by comparison.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:57am PT
Imop his visions and intent could lead to some very scary sh#t..

Sanskara - What exactly is the difference between Musks vision and intent and that of the guys that invented the ipad you typed that on?

Let's see, re-usable rockets, electric cars, and solar powered homes. Yeah, that's some terrifying sh#t.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 25, 2014 - 03:09am PT
Jump starting a couple of new industries is pretty cool. But when you keep at it and create a couple more you are just hot-dogging, dude is a major over achiever.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
SpaceX news:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101614454?__source=yahoo%257cfinance%257cheadline%257cheadline%257cstory&par=yahoo&doc=101614454%257cSpaceX+CEO+Elon+Musk+suin
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
Capacitors do have some important advantages; they charge up quickly and don't wear out.

And don't wear out is not true .....
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
moosedrool

I'm well aware of the properties of capacitors as I've been using them and working with them for a long time.

We have some LED flashlights here where they fully charge up in 15 to 20 seconds.

These are expensive units,

After 3 years the capacitors no longer hold a charge.

The capacitors in the electric vehicle here are shot too.

All the capacitors in all of DNC's electric vehicles are shot also.

Making a claim "don't wear out" is not true.

Talk to the memory guys at micron. One good friend works there and he'll tell you all about capacitors wearing out.

Memory chips change state and hold bits by capacitors.

There is nothing in the material world manufactured that "don't wear out" .....

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
May 7, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
what's he gonna say?!?!?! what's he gonna SAY???!!!!!!11169

after hours trading is so volatile right now!


Adjusted earnings per share came in at $0.12 per share, which was higher than the $0.07 expected by analysts surveyed by Bloomberg.

However, the stock is down by around 6% in after-hours trading.

$50 Million in losses.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 7, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
Nature, you lost $50 million? Holy sh!t! Does this mean we gotta hold
a sushifest funraiser for you now? You can come stay in my garage if you need to.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
May 7, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
yeah, that's gonna leave a mark.


wonder if it'll drop enough for the straddles to profit.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 7, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
May 7, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
TGT - I need one of those to crush my beer cans before I put them in recycling. Crushing them by hand is too much work.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Apr 30, 2016 - 04:03pm PT
There is nothing in the material world manufactured that "don't wear out" .....


Thank God that WVB was not manufactured in the material world . . . . . . . .







Elon Musk is not stoopid enough to be President.


And, he's a wetback, and is ineligible to be President.


Just be satisfied that you have those stoopid Iron Man movies to jack off to.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Apr 30, 2016 - 08:51pm PT

Has more money than I do.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 30, 2016 - 09:27pm PT
He's now selling Elon "Musk" cologne! Clever guy. Knows how to make LOTS of money.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 30, 2016 - 09:43pm PT
What's that musky smell feeding at the public through-why it's Elon.

A first rate crook yes, but a visionary boldly going where few others have traveled. We need more of these types to advance the species rather than the garden variety criminals only in it for themselves.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Jan 22, 2017 - 04:04am PT
What amazes me is how you lazy fukers entertain using the electric world that could exist when Musk gets his class act together? There are some useful electric toys around here NOW! Stop using yer gasser.



Yes, 20 Whrs per mile at 20 mph. Far better energy savings than the Tesla World of big $$ and saving little energy. talk talk talk

Or is that Congested California World too unsafe to ride an [E] Bike? Air Bags Now
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 22, 2017 - 06:10am PT
Good tire choice Dingus!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Jan 22, 2017 - 07:07am PT

Musk is another F*#king Capitalist Pig in a green suit

Corporate American [Demsters or re-Pubes] will not get the job done.

Transitions begin with what you bring thru the door, park on your driveway or build -- suffocate corporate america by welding you wallet -- no more gas guzzling junk.... and other shite.

couchmaster

climber
Jan 22, 2017 - 08:25am PT


^^Rub it in what a worthless shithole the energy dept is going to become under Trump TGT:-)^^ I have some hope and change about the future, but suspect it will turn into "change back" soon. In this instance regarding the energy dept changes, it already has, 15 min after the election.

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 22, 2017 - 10:11am PT
Elon is highly adaptive as well as being a visionary. Godspeed on his journey to t h e future, Mars and beyond.
ecdh

climber
the east
Jan 22, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
as a businessman hes not qualified for president, he hasnt done a reality tv show yet.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 25, 2017 - 12:46pm PT


Once Musk gets a couple of tunnels drilled under LA (todays news) he should be ready for that:-) http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/01/25/elon-musk-the-boring-company-tunnels/97030778/

"Exciting progress on the tunnel front," Musk tweeted. "Plan to start digging in a month or so."............"Traffic is driving me nuts. Am going to build a tunnel boring machine and just start digging," he tweeted at the time, adding, "it shall be called 'The Boring Company.'"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 25, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
Alan Cocconi and Dave Sivertsen, my friends who were at Cal Tech together, started AC Propulsion, Rippel was the business guy. They created much if the technology used by Toyota, Volkswagon, in addition to Tesla. I told them for years that they were giving it away, but they didn't listen to me.

Alan also almost single-handedly invented drones in the 80's and gave that technology to his friend Paul MacCready, of Gossamer Albatross fame.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 29, 2017 - 08:09pm PT

Looks like he broke ground! Off to the races goes Elon, Wow. http://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/2066335/billionaire-tesla-boss-serious-about-digging-tunnel

Partial quote:
"Billionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk has broken ground on an underground tunnel he plans to burrow beneath the city of Los Angeles to spare himself from having to sit in traffic.

He’s also about to purchase a large earth drilling machine to continue the tunnel, which was started on his companies’ properties in Hawthorne, CA, according to a person familiar with his thinking. Elon Musk is chief executive of the space transportation company SpaceX and electric carmaker Tesla Motors, which are located on sprawling adjacent properties in Hawthorne......."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 29, 2017 - 08:47pm PT
Hey, Moosie, whaddya think of yer boy now that he's hooked up with The Trumpinator?
Not long ago he was bad mouthing him and now he's bromancing him! Woot!
I know, it's just business, right? Just like Vinny would say before pulling the trigger.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 31, 2017 - 11:10am PT

Here's the followup and it might be a game changer. Musk isn't talking about digging a tunnel. He's talking about trying to speed up the digging of them. Imagine if they could get a 500% speed increase in digging a tunnel. Holy smiokes!

Game Changer Er.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/excited-elon-musk-says-he-can-dig-holes-1000-more-quickly-currently-possible-1603813?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous&yptr=yahoo

"Improving tunneling speed while maintaining safety is Musk's ambition with this project. Speaking at the Hyperloop competition, he said: "We're just trying to figure out what it takes to improve tunneling speed. Somewhere between 500 and 1,000% is I think possible. If you apply a limit-of-physics approach we'll see how far we can get."

But the project is in the very early stages of development. Musk added: "We're just sort of muddling along, we've no idea what we are doing, we want to be clear about that... [but] I'm actually quite optimistic that tunneling can be improved by at least fivefold, maybe tenfold, and that's really key to a lot of technologies: road tunnels, Hyperloop tunnels, train tunnels."...
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 31, 2017 - 11:25am PT
Read this interesting story yesterday that claims Musk sees Trump, and especially Tillerson, as "an opportunity" to implement a carbon tax:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-elon-musk-is-changing-position-on-trump-2017-1

With Tillerson, Musk has clearly found a person who can pressure Trump on a carbon tax, something that Musk called for in late 2015, during a speech at the Sorbonne in Paris.

"We have to fix the unpriced externality," he said, pointing out that pollution is classic negative externality in economic terms that causes harm to all, but cost to none. He called it a "hidden carbon subsidy of $5.3 trillion per year."

Tillerson supported a revenue-neutral carbon tax when he was at ExxonMobil as the best way to de-incentivize carbon generation. Economist and policymakers often agree, but some also think a carbon market would be a more effective means to halting global warming.

So with Musk, in the first order, we have a connect-the-dots between his reversal of sorts on Trump and his enthusiasm for Tillerson.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 31, 2017 - 11:32am PT
couch, Musk thinks he's smarter than the Swiss, the passed masters of tunneling? They
just brought in that mammoth Gotthard Tunnel on schedule and under budget. You know,
when they're not making tunneling machines they're making watches.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 1, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
Exactly, Reilly.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 10, 2017 - 09:20am PT
What, he's gonna change the weather? Whoa!

Is it just me or does anybody else think that boy has too many irons in the fire?
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 10, 2017 - 09:26am PT
Elon Musk is the man!

His gigafactories are insane! Check it out:

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-gigafactory-facts-2016-9
WBraun

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
So ,,, I'm right again.

The stoopid gross materialists want to turn Americans into stoopid robots.

You all will soon be drooling oil .......
WBraun

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 05:18pm PT
Yep ... unbelievably stoopid people thinking the advancement of technology is so everything ....
dhayan

climber
culver city, ca
Mar 28, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
You guys keep drinking the koolaid...Musk is dangerous.
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Mar 28, 2017 - 07:40pm PT
Musk has a nice vision, but I doubt we will last that long.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Mar 29, 2017 - 07:03am PT
For a" smart guy" he says a lot of dumb things.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 24, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Apr 24, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
For a" smart guy" he says a lot of dumb things.

Yep.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 24, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
Big article in LA Times today about Tesla's problems and how a lot of people are 'shorting' Tesla.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Apr 24, 2017 - 05:45pm PT


Is it just me or does anybody else think that boy has too many irons in the fire?

I agree, and I am not a musk fan.

You guys keep drinking the koolaid...Musk is dangerous.

I don't see him as being dangerous, but I see him being very egotistical
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 24, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
What would you do if you had some big successes that made more possibilities accessible to you than for most people, and you had big visions about what the world could be and what your role could be toward achieving that? Our time here is short, no time for dilly-dallying if your dreams are big enough.

Perhaps it does take a damn lot of arrogance to dream on a grand scale, and to boldly act on it. Whatever character flaws the man may possess- which I am not informed about for lack of interest- I admire the spirit of dreaming big and taking steps to make it real.

Few are those who can make a beautiful sandcastle and many are those who are satisfied with tearing them down.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 24, 2017 - 07:07pm PT
As for the Neural link stuff... I do not look forward to being part of a world where that is required to be competitive, but I do see that it is coming and I think Musk has the right vision. A few months back I watched some panel of smart dudes talking about the implications of AI on our future society. Musk's response in that venue (which clearly telegraphed his plans for a company in this space) I thought was the most prescient. On the one hand my jaded self saw it as another opportunistic marketing pitch for another one of his companies, but if you spend some time to think about the real ways in which AI will change our society... he is spot on.

The technology is real, it won't be stopped, and it will give advantages to those who use it. If you believe this, perhaps the best way to manage our society short of destroying technology (but you can't put the genie back in the bottle without returning humanity to the stone-age) is to make it accessible to all. If the technology is democratized, then we have effectively the same societal battles that we do today but operating on a higher plane of efficiency. But if the technology only goes to the elite/rich folks, it causes a dramatic acceleration and end-game to the divide between rich and poor. It almost becomes a speciation event, where normal humans become just another class of animals and enhanced humans become the rulers of the Earth.


I don't fear the role of artificial enhancements in my life. I see the technology created by humans as just a super-primitive version of what nature has been improving for billions of years. I am paying more attention to molecular biology lately (because my wife's work has exposed me to it more) and it is frickin miraculous. She works to reverse engineer how the machinery of life works and see what problems it solves, and I come at it from the opposite side using computer science and systems design to take a problem and figure out a solution for it. There is a natural analytical convergence of those professions.

But I do fear what our government agencies and corporations and power-obsessed people will do with the technology. It's a bit hard to see how humanity makes it through our relative infancy. This goes way beyond giving a little kid a book of matches and lighter fluid.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 24, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
[url="http://https://electrek.co/guides/tesla-semi/"]http://https://electrek.co/guides/tesla-semi/[/url]




It is going to be tough on the dino burners ,eventually,you will all be banned,dementia will be blamed .........lol.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Apr 24, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
What would you do if you had some big successes that made more possibilities accessible to you than for most people, and you had big visions about what the world could be and what your role could be toward achieving that? Our time here is short, no time for dilly-dallying if your dreams are big enough.

As I said, IMO he is more of a hedonist than he is an altruist.
john hansen

climber
Apr 24, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
I got 100 shares of Tesla 3 years ago for $196 per share.

Up 57 percent . Pretty small investment, so I will ride it up or down unless something really bad happens and I get out at $100 or so.

I think the battery storage increase alone is worth the risk.


In a way he is the Henry Ford of the early 21st century, streamlining production of a repeatable process ( making batteries) that can be put in banks to store energy at off peak demand hours. Its just a great concept like lego's or the Model A. Simple but effective. Same with the reusable
first stage rockets. Saves 50 percent of the cost for a launch.


I will hold and this will be probably be the last stock I sell when I am 84.


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 24, 2017 - 09:42pm PT
^^^Nice. We saw those batteries on tv a year ago, but I still haven't seen them homedepot yet? We're waiting for them here in the JTree outback.

I agree with NutAgain mostly. Musk isn't in it to provide for the masses, he's serving the elite. Otherwise I think he'd be doing what he's doing in China.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 24, 2017 - 10:48pm PT
All you Musk Aid drinkers can go to Mars with him although I'd put large
money on him being too chicken to go.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Apr 25, 2017 - 05:09am PT
^^^^Good one. I'm a science loving guy and the whole "no worries about effing up this place cuz we will soon be colonizing Mars" bandwagon is just silly sci if cultism - hey, I love Star Wars and TNG as much as the next guy, but I'm enough of an adult to know the difference between that stuff and reality based science and economics.

We have enough sh#t to deal with here and the keep your feet on the ground making of science serve real needs for real people means being grown up enough to keep the bulk of science focused on real and sustainable solutions for problems we have here and now.

The ground we stand on and the air we breath on this stone is what we have to work with.

We have the capacity to send a few people to Mars and hang out for a little while and come back with a few buckets of samples. Would that be cool? Yeah. Is it important compared to keeping this place running well and sustaining us into the future? No.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 25, 2017 - 07:35am PT
Why not colonize the moon? That sure seems more doable than Mars for a practice attempt at building some kind of experimental base. Then we can dig up the ark on the darkside and explore the universe in it.

Musk though is much like Jobs in that he attracts a cult-like following.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 25, 2017 - 08:47am PT
Mark, you'll love this:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Apr 25, 2017 - 09:08am PT
That's awesome! Thanks, Reilly!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 25, 2017 - 10:12am PT
I don't fear the role of artificial enhancements in my life.


Are you sure?
DMT

I should clarify ;)
I don't fear the changes in me as a consequence of modification... probably because I haven't considered it enough! But I certainly do fear the impacts on my life as a result of the changes that will come in our society and individuals around me.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 27, 2017 - 09:32am PT
Exclusive: Tesla's Klaus Grohmann ousted after clash with CEO Musk - sources
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-germany-exclusive-idUSKBN17T2IY

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 28, 2017 - 09:19am PT
Why Musk ousted Grohman:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-germany-exclusive-idUSKBN17T2IY

Apparently he doesn't believe in honoring existing contracts or agreements.
monolith

climber
state of being
Apr 28, 2017 - 09:28am PT
^^ unlikely analysis ^^

Grohman will litigate if there are any contract violations.

More of a direction of company clash issue.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 28, 2017 - 09:46am PT
If you commit to having an open-marriage with someone who has been seeing a number of other people on a long-term basis, but then suddenly decide you want them all to yourself, you can pretty much count on things getting messy - especially when all the invested players also have deep pockets.
monolith

climber
state of being
Apr 28, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/293581?utm_source=HearstNewspapers&utm_medium=related&utm_campaign=syndication
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 28, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
Monolith,that is something.
Hope they make a van for that.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Apr 28, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
i think a mars colony would be fantastic...



no, no... hear me out:

it wouldn't be a colony so much as a "resort".

and the only people that would be allowed there would be every single primary elected leader of a recognized country on earth.

anytime a president, prime minister, presidente, chancellor, and/or etc gets elected they would also receive a mandatory month long stay on the "resort" on mars.

there would be no service staff at said "resort".

rather the "resort" would be more, shall we say, d.i.y. and self-service style.

we'd give 'em a good manual, and then they'd have to survive on mars for a month... hopefully they'd gain two things: 1. a better ability to cooperate with whatever other leaders were there at the time and 2. a new appreciation for the fact that, while we as individuals only get, if we're lucky, 120 years to do something with our lives, as a species the acts we collectively take now on earth, define the existences of generations to come on what is the most incredible and, for the time being only, accessible place for humans to exist.



and if they kill each other, you ask?

what happens on mars... stays on mars.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 28, 2017 - 07:26pm PT
Ok , I will play.
The place is too cold.
We know how to warm planets.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 20, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
Moose:

Visions come cheap (but they are necessary).

What matters more is the ability to make them come true.
WBraun

climber
May 20, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
Nothing in the gross material world ever becomes true except ...

Birth, death, disease and old age ......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 24, 2017 - 06:57pm PT
Worker advocacy group report says Tesla's injury rate higher than average
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-safety-idUSKBN18L00U

No union allowed at Tesla so to hell with the workers! That's visionary!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
May 24, 2017 - 08:46pm PT
Of course
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 25, 2017 - 06:35am PT
It’s a manner of speaking, Werner. I get paid to teach the stuff, so I do. It's the apparent role I'm in here in the drama, and it’s how we talk.

How things really happen?

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha. Pffffttttt! Can’t say, even though I see it.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 25, 2017 - 06:38am PT
Mr. Musk tends to have innovative product market ideas that invariably rely upon complementary product / services being built. Like a charging station infrastructure, or accepted technical standards in the industry, or enough upscale buyers so that the auto company could eek out economies of scale.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 25, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
He should skip the whole Mars boondoggle and use his resources to explore Europa.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jul 1, 2017 - 09:23am PT
Obviously a guy who can get things done.


Now the robot drone TR clip up idea... That would be good. Alert R&D at Petzl. Those stupid crash pads will become obsolite.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 6, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
Moosie, time to bail!

Tesla stock plunges into bear market territory

What a difference a couple of weeks can make. After hitting an all-time high in late June, Tesla shares have collapsed 20 percent as of midday Thursday on mounting concerns about its sales results, competition and the safety of its cars.

Traders consider a 20 percent decline from an all-time high the technical definition of a bear market move.
The electric-car maker's stock fell 5,5 percent Thursday, bringing losses for the week to more than 14 percent.
"Tesla's stock was pushed to ridiculous levels on the notion that the Model 3 would be a slam-dunk success," said Fred Hickey, editor of High Tech Strategist. The company's "$100,000+ models aren't selling as well and are piling up in inventory (the relatively small pool of potential buyers at these prices may be exhausted). This bubble stock is losing air rapidly, as it should."
Multiple Wall Street firms including Goldman Sachs, Bernstein, KeyBanc Capital and Cowen expressed disappointment over Tesla's second-quarter delivery results in notes to clients the last two days.
Goldman analyst David Tamberrino cited how Tesla's second-quarter deliveries number released Monday of approximately 22,000 cars missed his forecast of 23,500 and the Wall Street consensus of 24,200.
Tesla cited a production issue with its 100 kilowatt-hour battery packs for the second-quarter deliveries shortfall.

"Tesla's Q2 production and deliveries report raised more questions than answers, particularly about Model S and X demand," Bernstein's Toni Sacconaghi wrote in a note to clients Wednesday.
After the weaker-than-expected deliveries number, Volvo announced Wednesday that it will phase out combustion engine-only cars. The automaker's new cars will be all electric or hybrid by 2019.
"This announcement marks the end of the solely combustion engine-powered car," Volvo Cars Chief Executive Hakan Samuelsson said, according to a Reuters report.
The Volvo news came after a Handelsblatt Global article last week, which said BMW plans to introduce an electric version of its popular 3-Series line of sedans later this year.
In addition to the rising competition, one of the key selling points for Tesla's cars is now being called into doubt.
On Thursday, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's Dave Zuby questioned Tesla's claim that the Model S is the safest car in history after a series of new crash tests.
"If you're looking for top-line safety, we believe there are other, better choices than the Model S," Zuby told CNBC.
Tesla declined to comment on this story. Its shares are up 53 percent this year versus the S&P 500's 8.7 percent return through Wednesday.
The company's market value is about $50.7 billion, which is now below General Motor's $52.7 billion, according to FactSet.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk had bigger concerns than the company's falling stock price Thursday morning.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/topstocks/tesla-stock-plunges-into-bear-market-territory/ar-BBDRy0g?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 6, 2017 - 06:43pm PT
Yep,you are right.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Jul 6, 2017 - 09:00pm PT
Occam's Razor

"It is vain to do with more what one can do with less."
~ William of Occam
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 6, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
Damn, I missed a Tesla buy opportunity. They'll fix that seatbelt problem and have 3 models with the highest safety rating.

Despite the recent weakness, Tesla’s stock was still up 44.6% over the course of 2017, while Ford shares have lost 7.8%, GM’s stock has inched up 0.1% and the S&P 500 index SPX, -0.94% has gained 7.6%.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 6, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
Electric vehicle sales are less than one percent of all vehicle sales. What in the hell is Volvo thinking?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Jul 7, 2017 - 10:46am PT
The whole electric care thing is elitist. It is for the few and doesn't provide the needs for the many - not that some electric cars won't be a good thing.

The problem with electric cars is rare earth metals needed for batteries. There's not enough to go around for everyone's car battery and China controls most of it (part of China's global game of Go that we mistake for checkers).

Nuclear energy production of hydrogen is another option for transportation and will probably end up being part of the solution.

Algae biofuel will probably end up being the non-elitist option for the masses. High oil algae can be turned into biofuel that saves 80% on the carbon emission associated with regular fuel. The waste product can be used as fertilizer and to feed chickens, pigs, sheep and cattle in support of sustainable agriculture.

Elon - poster boy for ADD - loves those bright and shiny things.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jul 7, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
As the graphene batteries become more readily available and not just for NASA, the range of the Tesla will improve; where I currently live, it's a no-go. Having a solar powered house with excess power will allow the city dweller unrestricted mobility. Crunching the numbers is appalling, though.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jul 7, 2017 - 05:39pm PT


The key will be if batteries can deliver the announced range ( Volvo said 400 KM ) for the 12 year average life cycle of a modern car, or at least its equivalent cost over that life cycle without subsidies.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 29, 2017 - 08:09pm PT
Tesla is delivering the Model 3, can be had for as little as 35k, with a 200 mile range

http://www.10news.com/news/u-s-world/tesla-delivers-first-of-its-lower-cost-model-3-cars?page=2
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 3, 2017 - 08:23am PT
Tesla getting 1800 orders a day for new model.

Tesla short sellers getting crushed.

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-stock-price-earnings-report-crushing-short-sellers-2017-8

Got any more stock tips Reilly? Maybe your bro-in-law saw one and didn't like the color?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 3, 2017 - 09:37am PT
You bet! Always buy at the peak of the bubble!
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 3, 2017 - 09:42am PT
And don't forget, he's one of them foreigners.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 3, 2017 - 09:47am PT
And don't forget, he's one of them white foreigners.

Fixed that for you...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 3, 2017 - 09:50pm PT
Moosie, it's Hyped Loopies, not Hyperloop.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 4, 2017 - 05:47am PT
The tube itself was depressurized to the equivalent of 200,000 feet above sea level

lol... "in the event of a loss of cabin pressue...."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 7, 2017 - 09:06am PT
Tesla seeks $1.5 billion in junk bonds to fund Model 3 production


Following the announcement, Standard & Poor's reaffirmed its negative outlook for the automaker and assigned a "B-" rating for the bond issue - deep into junk credit territory.

Tesla seeks $1.5 billion in junk bonds to fund Model 3 production
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-offering-idUSKBN1AN13I
Captain...or Skully

climber
Boise, ID
Aug 9, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
BUGS!!!!!!!!6!!!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 14, 2017 - 11:00am PT
The beginning of the end:

Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-jobs/tesla-fired-hundreds-of-employees-in-past-week-idUSKBN1CJ00L


They built a whopping 260 cars in the whole quarter but only 220 were deliverable? Seriously? Ford made 4000 F150s per day in March!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 14, 2017 - 11:16am PT
Tesla built a whopping 260 cars in the whole quarter but only 220 were deliverable? Seriously? Ford made over 4000 F150s per day in September!

My bad - F-Series (including Super Duty)

McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Oct 14, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
I got to hover alongside a DeLorean on the freeway this morning. I don't remember them being so low to the ground! I don't think there's even room for an electric motor in there!
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Oct 14, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
I did feel a bit transported. The car was even a bit grimy - maybe so as not to attract too much attention!
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Oct 14, 2017 - 09:53pm PT
The folk-rock singer David Crosby ran over a jogger with his Tesla over here in Santa Ynez last year.

The Jogger said he couldn't hear the car coming.

David said the sun was in his eyes.

I give it another year before some California Assembly person writes a bill requiring Electric cars to have deer whistles - make that people whistles.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 17, 2017 - 08:32am PT
Is Tesla the new Bitchcoin?

Tesla's unfettered ambition to drain finances: analysts
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-truck-research/teslas-unfettered-ambition-to-drain-finances-analysts-idUSKBN1DH1M4

“Tesla spent $1.1 billion on its auto business in the third quarter, and expects expenses of $1 billion in the current one. It had about $3.5 billion in cash and cash equivalents at the end of Sept. 30.
At the current cash-burn rate, it would likely be down to about $1 billion in cash by the end of the first quarter.
In essence, all last night's event did was add to Elon Musk's shopping list of things he needs to spend money on at a time when the company is having difficulty making its base vehicle (Model 3)," Cowen analyst Jeffrey Osborne.“

mynameismud

climber
backseat
Nov 17, 2017 - 09:22am PT
“The point of doing this is to give a hardcore smackdown to gasoline cars,” said Musk at the launch. “Driving a gasoline sports car is going to feel like a steam engine with a side of quiche.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/tesla-roadster-electric-supercar-elon-musk-fast
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 29, 2017 - 11:31am PT
Build fast, fix later: speed hurts quality at Tesla, some workers say
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-quality-insight/build-fast-fix-later-speed-hurts-quality-at-tesla-some-workers-say-idUSKBN1DT0N3

At Tesla "so much goes into rework after the car is done ... that's where their money is being spent," a former Tesla supervisor said.

Tesla owners have complained on web forums of annoying rattles, buggy software and poor seals that allow rainwater to seep into the interior or trunk.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
Reilly ..... a question for you...your better than Google. I ask you cause you know this stuff.

How much TAX-payer $$$$ goes into each Tesla??????




Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 29, 2017 - 01:23pm PT
Good question, Guy. It breaks down into basically two parts. One are the tax breaks Musk has conned various gubmint entities into for the ‘honor’ of letting him build Teslas. Then there are the tax breaks the rich stiffs get for buying one. Can’t give you numbers off the top of my head but they are substantial in both cases.

For a good laugh I ran some numbers: Ford builds more F150s in half an hour than Tesla has built of their new Model 3 in 4 MONTHS! LOL
(I know, the F150 ain’t gonna save the world)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 29, 2017 - 01:32pm PT
Now what is the real cost of fossil fuels ?

You should know ,stockholder.

Inform us.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2017 - 02:35pm PT
Reilly.... thanks, I figured it was some hidden number...


Now what is the real cost of fossil fuels?

Willbeer..... for starters, you get to move around and travel freely....unlike anybody who has ever lived on our planet before lets say 1900.

You do drive do you????



wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 29, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
Only with biodiesel,but ,my question has nothing to do with me.

Yours does.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 29, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
Guyman ,I like you man,but a change is a coming.

Their drivetrains w/batteries run about 5k.[Click to View YouTube Video][Click to View YouTube Video]




Edit;Now let me be clear ,I have a like new 86 Vanagon ,new to me,from Cali,no engine and ready for this Drivetrain.I am looking into it hard.It will be solar charged.
Fabrication and installation will cost more ,but, I already have another Vanagon I have installed a 1.9 tdi motor into and it is rock solid.So it will cost more than 5k,for sure.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 10, 2018 - 03:51am PT
The current subsidies Tesla will take advantage of in 2018 are $5000 zev credits and $7500/car customer tax credits. Elon asked the government to remove these on May 3 2017. Across the board.


Because they are available to other manufactures as well. They use them with their electric cars.



In addition, he wants the subsidies removed that are advantageous to car companies but which he doesn't use.

You see, everyone says Tesla is running on government money (which he paid loans back in full, ahead of time) and yet they ignore the 4.6 BILLION of your tax dollars in oil subsidies that Trump paid out in 2017 to benefit your ice mobile.

So if the government quit giving a tax break of $7500 per electric car (which will stop in 2018 for Tesla anyway) and stopped giving 4.6 BILLION a year to Schell et al. it would be realistic. It makes me laugh when people whine about Tesla being supported by tax payers but they ignore how their government works and how much what they drive is also subsidized.

Canada is even worse at 3.3 Billion which is an even greater percentage of our GDP. Trudeau said he would let everything expire over the next 10 years and focus on renewables. We'll see.



tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 10, 2018 - 08:23am PT
So weird. Who can think up a glow comment like that. You have a great imagination I guess. Good to see you can Entertain yourself like that!
couchmaster

climber
Jan 10, 2018 - 08:49am PT
I won't argue against the electric car subsidies. The country makes polices like that taking many factors into account. Gifting the richest folks in our society so they can drive an electric car may be a useful and productive thing. Won't talk about Musk either, deep respect for the man for many reasons. Lets talk instead about the $4.8 billion allegedly that the gov is GIVING to big oil. Maybe some research is in order for you Tooth. Allowing someone to keep (or for a lot of the oil taxes merely defer the tax) more of their money isn't a "gift".

https://info.drillinginfo.com/federal-oil-and-gas-subsidies/

http://www.heritage.org/environment/report/whats-oil-subsidy

Are you saying this statement below is incorrect?

"let’s analyze what the oil & gas sector pays in taxes. In 2012 the top two corporations paying federal taxes in the US were ExxonMobil and Chevron paying a combined total of $45.2 billion. On average, the industry pays a 45% tax rate when all state, federal, and foreign taxes are totaled up. By comparison the Healthcare Industry pays a total rate of 35% and the Pharmaceuticals pay an estimated rate of 21%. Based upon these numbers it’s hard to believe which business sector is criticized the most for “subsidies”."


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 10, 2018 - 09:27am PT
We use that for big oil since that is what is used when talking about Tesla. Tax breaks and subsidies. A tax break is the same as taxing someone and then returning the money to them minus the new tax obligation that would benefit have been created. So better than getting a return on your taxes. Especially when you are paying 45% to begin with.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 10, 2018 - 09:36am PT
I live in a place that doesn’t do anything for cars over $70,000. I think that makes sense. The electric subsidy is meant to move the bulk of cars sold to clean energy. Giving it to rich people doesn’t make a lot of sense if they are low volume sales, however, we wouldn’t have any of the cheap cars on the market here if your country had not allowed an expensive car to be built, sold and used to prod the rest of the cars into production. I think the subsidy helped there. Now my model 3 is on its way thanks to everyone who paid for model x and s’s. I just wish the other car companies would make long distance cars too. I live in northern bc too far for a bolt to be able to make it to Vancouver especially since they have no fast charging and no charging network.

If I had the choice I would buy a Toyota or Subaru again. But they don’t seem to have anything but ice engines for sale.



Ps. Inner glow and wood effect are settings in Lightroom/PS that were probably not a reflection of the poster’s religious views of Musk.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 10, 2018 - 11:29am PT
Well the intent in that one is obvious!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 10, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
Can he walk on fresh as well as salt water?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 10, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
What are you two ,like eighty something?
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 10, 2018 - 03:20pm PT
I pray to him every night (haven't heard anything back yet).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 20, 2018 - 09:01am PT
Just looked at the LA Times’ review of the Model 3. The car they tested had a sticker of,



wait for it,



$57,500!!!!!! Yeah, the peoples’ car! How is that gonna sell?
And the interior looks like a Polonez with an iPad bolted to the dash.
For 57 Large? Seriously?

tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 21, 2018 - 05:54am PT
think nokia flip phone vs. iphone or any other modern phone now.


How will it sell? People will drive it, realize that with the smaller battery (220mi range minus $9000) and no luxury $5000 addition, it will cost 14% less than a civic or accord to own and operate over 5 years.


Plus, when you drive electric it is hard to go back to ice. By the time the 500,000 of us get ours, you can worry about Tesla selling any more.

Maybe they might spend their first dollar ever advertising it, compared to the millions spent on trying to advertise and sell civics or accords, Tesla doesn't seem to have any problems selling their cars as quickly as they can build them.




Do you really think that you need all the guages an ice car does? Oil temp? Coolant temp? RPMs? Check engine light? Brakes are hardly used, engine braking refills the battery. No distributer caps, exhaust systems to break down. Who the hell would want cars to be built with so little to break down? How is this thing going to sell?

Lower cost to own/operate for 5 years than civic/accord.

0-60 4.6 seconds with long range battery, going to increase with AWD option this spring.






You're a funny guy!
perswig

climber
Jan 21, 2018 - 06:26am PT
For 57 Large? Seriously?

Betting a fidget spinner comes standard, though...
Dale
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 09:01am PT
I just paid the same for a Volvo. I grant you the Tesla will make you feel warm and fuzzy but
I can drive my Volvo anywhere, and I’m all about road trips to wherever, such as Lofoten and
Finnmark, where we’ll be going after Volvo flies us over there.

And would you really want to spend time in this:

OR THIS?

And that ‘infotainment’ system does everything the vaunted Tesla’s does, without looking
like some junior high shop class mashup.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 21, 2018 - 09:24am PT
Paid the same initially but after 5-10 years of ownership the comparison will be lopsided and the drive wherever you want argument is one that even if it were true today, is changing so quickly with the tens of thousands of chargers being installed and the next Tesla has 600mile range with 0-60 in 1.9 seconds. So you better use that argument quickly before anyone finds out the truth.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 09:34am PT
Really? On last summer’s road trip thru E OR, WA, ID, MT, WY, CO,UT, and AZ I didn’t see
any charging stations. Granted, I wasn’t really looking, but I do notice them around here.
And I guarantee that the total time I spent gassing up wasn’t a fraction of one Tesla recharge.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 21, 2018 - 09:55am PT

First photo is from one independent charging company. Next two are Tesla. You can go here...

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/charging

to determine how long a trip would take with a given Tesla for any number of stops on a trip.



I live in northern BC now, and I can get to Squamish or Banff and then on to wherever I want via Tesla, in the winter, just as quickly as with my internal combustion engine car.

Volkswagon should have almost 3000 of their fast charging stations by next year. Chargepoint has 45,000 stations.




If you don’t like the bare dasH, you can always buy a spare oil gauge from amazon and it will be “well appointed” ha ha!. .




I'm sure that the reason you didn't see them is that you are trained to look for a gas station where you take time out of your day to go specifically to a location specifically to gas up and buy bags of chips/soda pop. Electric car mentality is to do away with that and do your charging where you park to do other useful things. Eating, shopping, sleeping, etc. If that's a stupid idea and you think time should be taken out of your day to take your cell phone into a certain store, out of your way, just to recharge it, then good for you! The rest of us charge our cell phones at night while we are sleeping, or in a plug at the airport while we are travelling. We don't take time out of our days to charge our phones. Or our cars?


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 21, 2018 - 10:42am PT
Please give an example of a business decision where the market didn’t determine the soundness of the decision.
I can’t think of one. Unless it resulted in an environmental disaster.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 21, 2018 - 10:54am PT
Because it sounded silly. Redundant. I thought we must have missed the point of being that wordy.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 21, 2018 - 11:02am PT
Just a better reflection of you, not the issue at hand.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 27, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
Folks on Reddit are saying that Musk is mfg a $600 flamethrower he is taking pre-sales on. Apparently not a joke but I'm withholding judgement on that. Looks like the price is $500.

https://taskandpurpose.com/elon-musks-600-flamethrower-will-apparently-released-civilian-market-april/?bsft_eid=82d2fc1f-222d-4617-94cc-5d2c46849037&utm_campaign=tp_daily_friday_pm&utm_source=blueshift&utm_medium=email&utm_content=tp_daily_pm_ricks&bsft_pid=33fd103e-e257-4e63-8778-b1551a4e80ec&bsft_clkid=867a65b0-a664-43ec-8f1b-ae863c96aedd&bsft_uid=6a55bce2-33c3-4a34-a891-6a2adb3642b8&bsft_mid=4d73a398-f4fa-454d-a26c-07306a550ca3&bsft_pp=1


WTF a bunch of civis do with flamethrowers? I'd be afraid to see that at a crowded mall.

Interesting text: https://www.boringcompany.com/flamethrower
"-Fire extinguisher sold separately (for exorbitant amounts of money)
-Taxes and shipping will be added at checkout
-Additional customs fees may apply for international orders because of laws
-International customers can receive a full refund if not happy with said fees
-Before shipping, aspiring flamethrower aficionados will be sent a terms and conditions rhyme for review and acceptance
-Starts shipping in spring
-May not be used on Boring Company decorative lacquered hay bales or Boring Company dockside munitions warehouses"

Extinguishers are $30.00 with $16 freight to my area. Says: "Buy an overpriced Boring Company fire extinguisher! You can definitely buy one for less elsewhere, but this one comes with a cool sticker and the button is conveniently riiight above."


The Boring Company
Order 1543xx
Thank you!

"Hi xxxxx, thanks for pre-ordering a Flamethrower. We will notify you when we have additional shipping information."

I added the xxx's
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jan 27, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
WTF a bunch of civis do with flamethrowers?

hunting and self defense. just remember "all it takes to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a flame thrower"

Seriously cuts down on time spent cutting trails and cleaning new routes.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 1, 2018 - 03:28pm PT
Sales closed on the flamethrowers, they hit 10 million dollars in orders
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 1, 2018 - 03:38pm PT
To state the obvious, these are not real flamethrowers, the kind you see in war that put burning liquid on a target. More like the carnival kind that shoot out a flame only.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 1, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
More like a giant butane torch on steroids.

20,000 people said " gotta have me one of those!"

I heard they are sending out a complimentary fire extinguisher with each one.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 1, 2018 - 10:39pm PT
They are already selling for almost triple the sale price

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 1, 2018 - 10:41pm PT
Hula Hoops for psychopaths.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Feb 6, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
Holy Shit!

I just watched the two Falcon Heavy boosters land simultaneously.

“It’s like science fiction.”
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Feb 6, 2018 - 01:03pm PT
OMG. Synchronized swimming isn’t as precise as those landing boosters.

F’ing UNREAL.

A Tesla in space. Yippppeeee


Susan
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 6, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
Yeah, and watching that launch was cool.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Feb 6, 2018 - 01:45pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 6, 2018 - 01:51pm PT
Maybe the core and "of course I still love you" had a spat?

2 out of 3 ain't bad...

Great launch!

Yeah, simul landings on the ground by the boosters...wow...

I used to support LC-40 just down the beach...pretty neat to see SpaceX gettin' 'er done.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Feb 6, 2018 - 02:19pm PT
I haven't been following this stuff, and was pretty blown away by the boosters landing. The amount of engineering that goes into something like this is utterly dumbfounding. So much knowledge of gases and thermodynamics and material properties at unusual temperatures and pressures, coordination/timing of control signals, aerodynamics, materials manufacturing and precision measurements and tolerances... How committing it is to just create test environments for each of the components that go into this system, and then envisioning how they will all work together and interact with each other....

It is humbling to think about my personal accomplishments and how small they are in the context of something like this.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 6, 2018 - 02:25pm PT
Did they nail the landing with the main booster?

TV News cut to advertisement right as it was coming in.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 6, 2018 - 03:09pm PT
Their live feed of the core was cut...

The video feed of the launch control folks have a voice that says, "center core landing burn has start up"...followed by "we lost the center core" about 9 seconds later.

I think it splashed into the ocean.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Feb 6, 2018 - 03:13pm PT
The launch and 2 of the 3 boosters are an amazingly impressive achievement. Nothing this powerful has flown since the Apollo program shut down in '74.

If they can get a few more these to work, they might put the SLS out of business, and a Mars trip might actually start looking possible.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 6, 2018 - 04:47pm PT
Sadly no; from theverge.com:
Though the Falcon Heavy’s outer cores successfully landed after launch this afternoon, the middle core of SpaceX’s huge rocket missed the drone ship where it was supposed to land, a source tells The Verge. SpaceX later confirmed The Verge’s reporting in a press conference.

The center core was only able to relight one of the three engines necessary to land, and so it hit the water at 300 miles per hour. Two engines on the drone ship were taken out when it crashed, SpaceX CEO Elon Musk said in a press call after the rocket launch.

But truly amazing; it's well worth watching the videos. Seeing those two boosters landing together......
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Feb 6, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
Two Out of Three Ain't Bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 6, 2018 - 07:41pm PT
At the post mission presser, Musk was asked about the Dragon 2 manned missions to the ISS, and he commented that this year was still possible. The only holdup is getting NASA to sign off on them as being "man rated."
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 6, 2018 - 08:43pm PT
I saw a statement somewhere that several of the engines didn't fire to slow the booster down and so it hit the drone ship at 300mph damaging the ships engines.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 8, 2018 - 08:55am PT
Pretty cool this description on JPL's HORIZONS site...


"Yes. We added a Tesla Roadster to the satellite catalog." - AF Space Command




So very cool!!


https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/spacex-falcon-heavy-launch-elon-musk/552296/
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 8, 2018 - 09:06am PT
I think this a space age ego trip, which is unfortunate.

And then there is the problem of having more junk orbiting around out there.

Better would have been to use the risky first launch to put a scientific payload some place that the heavy lift capability of the rocket was uniquely able to access. Especially strange since the Silicon Valley denizens claim to be technologically sophisticated, and not at all averse to taking on risks. Apparently the best they could come up with was an advertising stunt.

What a waste.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 8, 2018 - 09:07am PT
So very cool!!

Great - more space junk, aka litter. We’ve effed up this planet so let’s trash space now.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Feb 8, 2018 - 09:39am PT
“As such, Falcon Heavy's success on its maiden mission is not a sure thing and so placing a satellite or some other operational payload on board wasn't considered a prudent move. Test flights typically carry a mass simulator, taking the place of the payload in the form dead weight, like concrete or steel blocks.”


https://www.space.com/39606-spacex-falcon-heavy-fourth-car-space.html

And this “space junk” is not in earth orbit. It is headed for a heliocentric orbit in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 8, 2018 - 09:52am PT
Oh, it’s not ‘junk’ by virtue of its orbit? That’s Trumpian Logic, sir.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Feb 8, 2018 - 11:02am PT
It’s not dangerous junk, as it would be if it was in Earth orbit, so why should it be such a source of sour grapes?

A couple tons of concrete, which is a standard payload on an unproven launch vehicle, would have been better?

And if it were Trump's Junk he would have said it was the biggest, bestest, beautifulest, mostest importantest, payload in galactic history.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 8, 2018 - 03:35pm PT
A couple here might enjoy...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROnomVVQ2cU


I loved his commentary around the 8 minute mark regarding the car, Starman and Earth in the backdrop. So surreal.

I can't help but wonder if our descendants in 300 yrs, say, or 3,000, will do flybys of this Tesla and Starman and what they will think and if they will be wowed. Real Star Trekkie. Star Trek Voyager, in one episode, featured a 50s truck (edit: 1936) which Voyager encountered in deep space. Can't remember much more. Maybe it was the one with Amelia, the cryonic chambers, etc..

Yeah, here it is, thanks to Google AI...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_37%27s

Surprised I havent' heard any tweets, news outlets, etc.. referencing this STV episode.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 8, 2018 - 03:48pm PT

lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_37%27s
Zclipper69

Trad climber
mill valley
Feb 8, 2018 - 06:56pm PT
Musk has for sure figured out the 420 to 1 mechanical advantage hauling ass system.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 8, 2018 - 07:21pm PT
“As such, Falcon Heavy's success on its maiden mission is not a sure thing and so placing a satellite or some other operational payload on board wasn't considered a prudent move. Test flights typically carry a mass simulator, taking the place of the payload in the form dead weight, like concrete or steel blocks.”

isn't the whole premise of private sector space voyaging that they can do it faster and better than NASA and are willing to take risks?

I can think of a number of things they could have done, and perhaps different orbits they could have achieved, with a payload they could have built on Silicon Valley tech know how.

Even hauling a very large jug of water would have been more useful than what they did.
john hansen

climber
Feb 8, 2018 - 07:30pm PT
Kerosene and Oxygen.

That's about as simple as you can get.

Then making all the other stuff work,, not so much.

The double landing was impressive.

The first stage of the Apollo was kerosene and Oxygen.

Here is a new view of the landing, they came in fast,and then slowed down really fast at the end.


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=space+x+double+landing&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dspace%2bx%2bdouble%2blanding%26pc%3dMOZI%26form%3dMOZSBR&mmscn=vwrc&view=detail&mid=BD404F2FDE5BD5CB9F68BD404F2FDE5BD5CB9F68&rvsmid=19B5AE5CA040A6BEBD2619B5AE5CA040A6BEBD26&FORM=VDQVAP

stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Feb 8, 2018 - 07:42pm PT
There probably were more useful things he could have done, somewhere in between a Tesla and a concrete block. Don't think you would have wanted to launch an expensive experiment on a rocket with a high likelihood of failing, but still, they could have found something.
But...

It was marketing. Musk is trying to get people excited about space. And I do think it's a little beyond just his own personal commercial interests. If putting something fun up there in a distant orbit helps motivate people for space and science, I'm OK with a little bit of fun.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 9, 2018 - 07:44am PT
So I just happen to follow Paul Bloom on Twitter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bloom_(psychologist);

His tweet a couple of days ago links just perfectly, I think, to this thread and the views expressed here.

"There are 2 kinds of people. (1) Those who think that @elonmusk putting a car into space is exhilarating & admirable. (2) Those who think it's foolish & wasteful. You can tell a lot about a person based on their feelings about this.

(I'm in category (1), for what it's worth)"

https://twitter.com/paulbloomatyale/status/961021050875203584


Notables: (a) The word "wasteful." (b) "You can tell a lot about a person based on their feelings about this."



One might think climbers would be a bit more inclined to category (1).
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 9, 2018 - 08:54am PT
Its interesting...

Every local news channel here had that shot of the starman in the car...

A younger generation might get some inspiration?

What else drives a bump in math/science? Grumpy old dudes spraying about the waste of launching sports cars into space? Ha ha...

Innovation drivin' by the selfie...is still innovation.

The whole show is just kinda fun. And...that's...ok...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 9, 2018 - 09:30am PT
very deep analysis in a tweet, no doubt, I wonder if he cites them in his CV.

Inspiration comes from many different places for different persons, no doubt about that either. When you think about Musk's ambition to colonize space, a truly serious intent would build on what is known about the challenges. So as risky as a first launch of a heavy lift rocket might be, the opportunity afforded by a successful launch to preplace resources for a future program would seem rational.

And currently inexpensive resources on Earth, like water (required for life), are very expensive to lift into space, and potentially useful for future spacefaring enterprises.

My main criticism is really just voicing my disappointment. I think that Musk can essentially do anything he wants, if he can raise the funds, at the moment, but that he could also have been more serious about his planning.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 9, 2018 - 09:38am PT
Boy, you just don't let up sometimes.

A tweet's not meant for deep analysis.

Paul Bloom's no schlup. Here you go: h-index: 70
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=fg_h250AAAAJ&hl=en


Lighten up. Play along once in awhile.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 9, 2018 - 09:52am PT
h-index, another cosmetic...
you can look mine up too while your at it
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 9, 2018 - 09:57am PT
Hardball. All right, I'll play.

you can look mine up too while your at it...

No humility there, lol.


Curious, how many singular or dual author citations you got? What would that h-index be, I wonder?


This ain't about you, Ed.

It's about a Tesla Roadster and Starman in space, a successful launch, and all the excitement and inspiration and last but not least science and engineering accomplishment that comes with that.

The visual of Starman in a Tesla Roadster (itself a major innovation of the times) with our Earth Island Blue Marble as backdrop is going to be in the minds of generations for a long, long, long time to come. THAT is a major emphasis here.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 9, 2018 - 10:05am PT
Curious, how many singular or dual author citations you got? What would that h-index be, I wonder?

This ain't about you, Ed.


precisely, it's about doing good science and engineering, being a part of a team where everyone contributes...


...not about sending my little red roadster into orbit. Maybe King Missile wrote a related lyric...
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Feb 10, 2018 - 03:54pm PT
What Elon has done with the Tesla in Space is make space fun and exciting to the average person like it was in the go-go years of Mercury and Apollo.

For most of the past couple of decades we have seen mostly feeds of some boring quasi military guy eat Jello on the Space Station. Hardly a whoopee moment after a couple of hundred times.

In the.end, Elon has shown the watchful aliens that humans can still do silly things.

It's one of our special powers.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Feb 10, 2018 - 04:36pm PT

What was Elon thinking? A DACA recipient could have been driving that car to college or work.

May be a political statement about having a dummy at the wheel.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 10, 2018 - 04:51pm PT
Just think for a minute ,that car may outlive our planet and life here ,because of ............
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Feb 10, 2018 - 04:54pm PT
I'm not so sure about the DACAs...they busted 2 of them smuggling illegals into California this week.

Probably just raising money for college tho.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Feb 10, 2018 - 04:58pm PT
The Tesla is a little bit for SpaceX fun and excitement.

But the main reason was cross promotion. You couldn't buy that exposure and coolness factor for millions of dollars for Tesla. It was an incredible bargain for that company. 1 used car for all that free marketing. Genius.
nah000

climber
now/here
Feb 10, 2018 - 06:57pm PT
sorry... can’t help myself:

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 14, 2018 - 04:58pm PT
WBraun

climber
Feb 14, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
Everything is perfectly provided on this planet for the living entities to be happy.

Instead, these st00pid gross materialists and their st00pid so-called modern science have mismanaged it all into a self-destructive world.

Now they want to travel by mechanical means to other planets and follow their same st00pid mismanaged methods.

All idiots!

These st00pid destructive clueless modern cavemen, st00pid so-called modern scientists do not know that thousands of years ago people could travel to other planets without mechanical means.

These modern clueless fools will destroy everything in their paths due to their ultimate poor fund of knowledge of life itself ......

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 22, 2018 - 06:08am PT
Musk is fixing to launch another one of his st00pid rockets from Vandenberg in about ten minutes. 6:17 AM. Look west and up and you should see it.

http://www.spacex.com/webcast
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 22, 2018 - 08:06am PT
Chaz, thanks for the heads-up.

I hope they're successful catching the flairing. They're supposed to catch it in a huge net strung aboard a sea-going ship!

Apparently it is expensive enough to warrant this.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/22/17039860/spacex-falcon-9-payload-fairing-mr-steven-net-catch


Mars? Sign me up!!!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 26, 2018 - 02:29pm PT
The Model 3 is a bona fide POS. The LA Times savaged it last week. Lots of pissed of
Musk Aid drinkers. And Fuggetabout it being reasonably priced. Apparently you can’t get
one for less than $49K, and many run over 60K! Tesla refuses JD Powers from accessing
their data. People are flocking to the Chevy Bolt.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 1, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
Really Reilly?

https://electrek.co/2018/03/01/gm-cant-take-advantage-tesla-model-3-delays-chevy-bolt-ev/




German automaker tore a M3 apart and had this to say...

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/auto/elektroauto-im-fahrbericht-das-model-ist-teslas-neues-glanzstueck-1.3866854

“Each sub-assembly system was put to the test, but the testers were especially impressed by the power electronics. Compact, expandable, fully integrated, modular, easily accessible, well-protected, reasonably priced and astonishingly clever in many details – that was the verdict of the experts, to which colleagues from other manufacturers also agreed.”

“This minimalism runs through the entire vehicle. There is initially only one engine, only one forward and reverse gear, only one driven pair of wheels, only one cooling circuit for the entire system.”

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 1, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
So you got proof that the Model 3 caused those Bolt sales to drop? How could it be if Tesla
isn’t producing any? The Model 3 is still an over-priced POS and Musk is a carny hawker.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 1, 2018 - 07:56pm PT
That graph has nothing at all to do with model 3 in any way. It is 100% sales of Bolt. To which you say people are flocking to.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 1, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
sixth sentence in the first paragraph
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Mar 2, 2018 - 07:16am PT
know someone that had i3 hated it, traded it in for a bolt. A co-worker just got a Bolt. He bought based on calculations of saving gas since he has a long commute. Turns out his saving were conservative since now on the weekend everyone in the family wants to drive the bolt.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 2, 2018 - 07:17pm PT

Just saw the model3 here in Vancouver. Four more months and they should be delivering them to us in BC.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
Mar 2, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
Elon Musk is f*#king idiot with a company that has bad reputations among workrs
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 3, 2018 - 08:29am PT
Oh yeah. How how could I forget. Fl and Elon are Satan. Ha ha! Listen to yourselves!
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Mar 12, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
I'm ready to go! The weightlessness will relieve all my arthritic joints. My new business will be making Martian Mist from the carbon Dioxide atmosphere; purest ethanol, a Martian Vodka of highest quality. What Moose and I don't drink ourselves, we'll share with the Earthlings for $5000 a 750 ml bottle. Same as a superior grade Cognac.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 30, 2018 - 07:06am PT
Musk is launching another one of his st00pid rockets from Vandenberg in about 5 minutes.

7:13 am Yosemite Valley Time.

Look west and up.

http://www.spacex.com/webcast
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 30, 2018 - 08:09am PT
Moody’s has downgraded Tesla’s credit rating to B3, one step from junk bond.
The shell game approaches its inevitable conclusion, but flashy rocket shows
are a nice distraction.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Mar 30, 2018 - 08:18am PT
damn it, where's my car?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 31, 2018 - 01:57pm PT
Moosie is standing strong with his Tesla stock. He’s gonna ride it like Major T. J. "King" Kong.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Mar 31, 2018 - 09:44pm PT
Majid_S: Elon Musk is f*#king idiot with a company that has bad reputations among workrs

That's what I've heard from more than one quarter. I used to teach a case study on Musk & Tesla. I also have a close friend who's a scientist there. He calls Musk a sociopath.

Musk has had great difficulties making production deadlines, and keeping senior managers--especially in those functions . . . sort of like the POS.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Apr 3, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I
"This is what may have happened in the recent Tesla Autopilot Crash"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
Hopefully the hyped-loop will have the unexpected benefit of instantaneous sterility.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
Apr 17, 2018 - 09:31pm PT
wait till Chinese car company sells similar model car in the US for half price. Your stock will worth 1/3
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Apr 18, 2018 - 06:16am PT
Got my Tesla last month. Can't say I'll ever buy another ICE. It snowed a foot here yesterday, northern BC, and the thing handles better with summer tires on the subsequent ice roads than my Subaru or Tundra 4wd did with not winters, but ice tires.
Convenience of not standing out in the cold to fill up with gas, or make gas stops at all. Sub 4.5s 0-60 is fun. More room to sleep in the back with the seats folded down than my 4Runner had and about the same as my Outback. But I can keep the climate control on all night if I want. There is a reason people like the product! Supply and demand. The demand is high for a reason, now I know why. The supply is well, higher than all legacy automaker's BEV production combined.

They got up to 4270 BEV's made last week, and no inventory left unsold. I wish my company could increase production at that rate. Or even have more than a week's production on the schedule.

tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Apr 18, 2018 - 06:25am PT
wait till Chinese car company sells similar model car in the US for half price. Your stock will worth 1/3

You mean 2/3. The fact that China has no respect for anyone else's intellectual property is already factored into the stock price. And 1/3 of Tesla is electric cars, 1/3 is electric production, 1/3 is electric storage. So make the cars worth 0 since we already know that anytime China makes a knockoff it overtakes 100% of the market, even the luxury market, isn't that right?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 18, 2018 - 07:52am PT
Today’s LA Times:

Musk has second thoughts on aggressive automation for Tesla Model 3

By RUSS MITCHELL. APR 17, 2018

In early 2017, Elon Musk told stock analysts that Tesla Inc.'s goal "is to be the best manufacturer on Earth." He'd get there by inventing a factory so dense with robots and devoid of human beings it would resemble an "alien dreadnaught" video game warship.
Speed, he's said, "is the ultimate weapon when it comes to innovation or production."
Instead, Tesla this week was forced to bring the Fremont, Calif., production line of its crucial mass-market Model 3 electric sedan to a complete halt, according to the company. It is at least the second shutdown in the last two months. And in an internal email, Musk said Tesla will add workers and go to round-the-clock production to meet goals.
Officially, the company is describing the weeklong shutdown of the Model 3 line as "planned downtime" to "improve automation and systemically address bottlenecks in order to increase production rates."

Tesla executives hatched the plan weeks ago, a spokesperson said. "This is not unusual and is in fact common in production ramps like this," the spokesperson said.
Auto industry veterans disagree. Several said that stopping an assembly line for a car in commercial production is not only unusual, it's exceptional. And manufacturing experts say the retrofits being made during the shutdown will make Model 3 assembly more closely resemble other automobile plants around the world.
"Periodic shutdowns of hours or a day are not uncommon during pre-launch pilot build. They are unheard of in regular production, where he supposedly is," said Bob Lutz, the former General Motors vice chairman and noted Tesla critic, who has also held top executive positions at Chrysler, Ford and BMW.
"This shutdown is most likely for the purpose of ripping out all the '22nd century' fully-automated assembly systems which were going to 'revolutionize automotive manufacturing' and turned out not to work," Lutz said via email.
Dave Sullivan, an analyst at AutoPacific Inc., said in an email: "Traditional automakers adjust bottlenecks on the fly during a launch. This is totally out of the ordinary."
The news was another blow to Tesla shareholders, who have seen the stock price recover somewhat after plunging 17% in one week in April on news of production problems, a car crash involving the company's Autopilot technology and a big recall. Tesla shares fell sharply at the start of trading Tuesday before finishing down 1.2% at $287.69.
The shutdown caught workers by surprise as well. Over the weekend, Tesla ordered Model 3 assembly line workers to not show up for work Monday through Saturday. Take vacation days, they were told, or use up remaining personal days off, or elect not to be paid at all.
Workers were told at the last minute, a Tesla spokesperson said, because "the exact timing (of planned shutdowns) may not be finalized until closer to when it happens."
But on Tuesday, Tesla said in an internal email it will begin around-the-clock production and add another factory shift in Fremont as it tries to ramp up Model 3 output to 6,000 a week by the end of June. (Musk said the carmaker produced 2,250 of the sedans last week.) Between the Fremont plant and its battery factory, Tesla will be adding about 400 people per week for several weeks, Musk wrote in the email obtained by Electrek.
The company had previously said it was targeting production of 5,000 vehicles a week by around the end of the second quarter.
"The reason that the burst-build target rate is 6,000 and not 5,000 per week in June is that we cannot have a number with no margin for error across thousands of internally and externally produced parts and processes," Musk wrote.
"We are burning the midnight oil to burn the midnight oil," he added.
Musk described the 6,000 car last-week-in-June production level as a "burst-build" that will "lay the groundwork" for steadily high production rates a few months from now. That means any given week of production could fall far short, making third quarter production forecasts more uncertain than ever.
The shutdown came just days after Musk appeared on a CBS This Morning segment, admitting that Tesla over-automated the Model 3 assembly line. In the taped segment, CBS This Morning co-host Gayle King was led by Musk on a tour through Tesla's then-bustling Fremont factory.
Musk sought to reassure viewers that lessons have been learned and that the Model 3 project, considered crucial to Tesla's continued existence, was back on track. Musk offered few details about automation problems beyond the admission that too many robots were installed. But he did say that "we have this crazy complex network of conveyor belts and it was not working. We got rid of the whole thing."
The too-many-robots admission appears to be a sobering comedown for Musk, who has said automation would one day become Tesla's primary business. Today, Tesla builds electric cars, solar energy systems and battery storage devices.
Although he's famous for warning that humanity should fear the arrival of artificial intelligence, Musk is eager to see robots replace human workers at Tesla. "Parking is one of my biggest nightmares," he said in 2016, referring to the always-overloaded parking lot at the Fremont plant. "It's like you can't fit everyone."
In the CBS This Morning interview, Musk backpedaled. "Maybe you need more people here working," King told him. "Yeah, we do," Musk said. Later that day he tweeted, "Yes, excessive automation at Tesla was a mistake. To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated."
He also copped to over-ambition in the design of the Model 3 in the interview. "We got complacent about some of the things we thought were our core technology, we put too much technology into the Model 3 all at once." Tesla owner forums are ripe with complaints including dead batteries, body panels that don't fit right and malfunctions in the input-output screen. Many customer service calls, owners report, result in instructions to reboot the system.
For years, Musk and his lieutenants have said that the Model 3 would be easier to manufacture than the Model X sport utility vehicle, which remains riddled with quality problems, earning low marks in Consumer Reports. "We're really trying to take a lot of lessons learned from Model X. We put a lot of bells and whistles on Model X and a lot of advanced technologies that weren't necessary for version one of the vehicle," Musk said in 2016.
If the Model 3 assembly line cranks back up as scheduled Monday, Musk will be hoping it marks a fresh start. Progress toward Musk's goal of 10,000 cars a week by the end of December is essential if Tesla is going to fulfill his prediction that the company will generate more cash than it burns in the third and fourth quarters of this year, alleviating the need to raise additional capital.
Analysts such as Efraim Levy at CFRA are skeptical. Barring some sort of "manipulation," he sees no way Tesla can produce positive free cash flow two quarters in a row this year.
In the CBS interview, Musk dismissed stock analysts.
"The problem a lot of analysts have is they kind of look in the rearview mirror instead of looking out the front windscreen," he said. "People have underestimated Tesla because they have looked at [what] Tesla's done in the past and used that as a proxy for what we're able to do in the future."

russ.mitchell@latimes.com
Bloomberg contributed to this report.

Hope they don’t run out of Kool-aid, too.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 18, 2018 - 08:40am PT
Musk: "The problem a lot of analysts have is they kind of look in the rearview mirror instead of looking out the front windscreen," he said. "People have underestimated Tesla because they have looked at [what] Tesla's done in the past and used that as a proxy for what we're able to do in the future."

The 20-20 foresight of a visionary.

The past has always been the best predictor of the future, albeit at very low rates of predictability—especially when speaking of human behaviors and results. With regards to complexity, meteorologists have purportedly have the most successful prediction rates—50%. The weather tomorrow is most likely to be what is today.

I may have told this story before. I was at a Dzogchen retreat about 8-10 years ago just outside Joshua Tree. The lama was a boisterous sort, so the retreat was wide open fun. At lunch one day, I was sitting at a table of 8, and we were arguing about cause-and-effect, free will, etc. Two fellows across from me were adamant that they had free will and could predict what they would and could do. Some of us were not so sure, so theoretical arguments ensued. One of the two fellows said he would predict what he would do next, by golly, and said he would get up and get another cup of coffee. His ideological colleague said that he’d do the same, and both walked smartly off to do so. Both went to the coffee pot, served themselves, and after getting cream or sweetener, they ran into each other and spilled their coffee onto the floor. We roared.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 18, 2018 - 08:52am PT
Not sure about his cars, but Musk can and does turn on a dime.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Apr 18, 2018 - 09:04am PT
What is the point of piling on and criticizing the guy besides making small people feel bigger?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 18, 2018 - 03:35pm PT
You talkin’ about The Donald or The Elon?
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 18, 2018 - 05:53pm PT
Ah, a believer.

My wife worked for Chambers in his heyday and then for Amazon. She's an excitement junkie. That's how we found our way to climbing. Most all of our climbing friends were working for SV firms. I taught MBAs who were working there. The hype was as thick as honey. And honey it could be for many people in the right place at the right time. Even now retired, my wife still gets drawn into missionary, visionary, strategy-critical projects.

It's like a drug or a tornado. You get sucked in. I mean, it's fun and all, but it takes your a part of your life from you.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Apr 18, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
So what benefits are there to cutting people down and being condescending or pointing out the negative with every post?


Power just went out all over Puerto Rico today except for 662 customers because they had Tesla PowerPacks or powerwalls. Which is entirely a good thing. But I’m sure you guys have only negative commentary available because it is connected to the nerdy kid you like to bully. Right?



days later Edit:*crickets*
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 3, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
Dood puts the ‘A’ IN Arrogant. I’d love to know what he said about Moody’s when they downgraded his credit rating to junk status.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
May 3, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
Dood puts the ‘A’ IN Arrogant.

No argument there.

Moody's

Uh, they're also a bunch of arrogant tools that make things like the '08 meltdown possible through willful and self-serving selective blindness.

Anyone involved at high levels of any corporation or high finance is de facto an as#@&%e to some degree. That's how they got there.

I took today as a buying opportunity. Yeah, he may be a tool, but he does have a vision and has made some previously untenable things a reality (viable electric cars / reusable space technology at a fraction of NASA prices).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 3, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
Gotta love a devoted contrarian. Tesla is the poster chile for the big time
shorters after that séance of a conference call. Actually, they've been
upping their short antes for a while. Oopsie, ya gonna snap up some Tesla
junk bonds when they come calling with their hat in hand in the third quarter
when the cash runs out? BwaHaHaHa! I know, Henry Ford declared bankruptcy
a few times before he got it right. You do know Elon lied all along about
producing a $30K 'affordable' Model S, right? Did I mention they're losing
over $22K on EVERY MODEL 3 THEY SELL? Helluva business plan that.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 4, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
Tooth: So what benefits are there to cutting people down and being condescending or pointing out the negative with every post?

I don’t think that’s what people here mean to do.

I think we’re fascinated by visionaries who create new communities or who have considerable talent--but who fall from grace. It’s a form of dramatic tragedy: characters who over-reach; hubris; Daedelus (the punished innovator) and his son Icarus (flying too close to the sun); etc.

There are also romantic heroes (where most everything goes right); comedic heroes (where everything goes well enough and is mildly funny); or ironic heroes (where good things come from the bad and vice versa).

Which story do you feel attracted to? Which one do you think is "most truthful?"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 4, 2018 - 12:45pm PT
o what benefits are there to...pointing out the negative with every post?

Because, to coin a phrase, the market climbs a wall of worry. Yer welcome!

Idolatry is fine, but not for an investor.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
May 4, 2018 - 12:58pm PT
For a smart guy, he's not to smart.
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
May 4, 2018 - 01:18pm PT
^^^ too.....

;)

Don't cast stones.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
May 4, 2018 - 10:44pm PT
I never claimed to be smart.

But I did manage to retired at 50.

LMAO
skitch

Gym climber
Bend Or
May 5, 2018 - 05:02am PT
I heard E-Musk is building a life size replica of earth, and will put it in the same orbit...and tesla owners get to live there for half price.
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
May 8, 2018 - 02:23pm PT
I think you meant "retire". LOL

Glad you never claimed to be smart Frumy, but you did bash someone else for not being smart.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2018 - 04:04pm PT
How many Tesla/miles does it take to offset the carbon footprint of one rocket launch?
That’s some big time hypocrisy! Oh, I forgot, the Teslas are just buying us time to move to Mars.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 8, 2018 - 09:11pm PT
SomebodyAnybody: If not for the existing launch infrastructure he essentially rents, courtesy of the US taxpayer, he wouldn't be doing jack sh#t at a fraction of NASA prices. 

True, but irrelevant.

Organizations with big fixed costs are obsessed with making breakeven. Any firm can take a loss for a while from not covering variable costs, but if they can’t make breakeven, they will be out of business very soon. Organizations in industries that require heavy fixed assets (e.g., infrastructure) will find ways to make up for what they don’t use (excess capacity when demand is low). They’ll sell off their excess capacity at bargain basement prices. It’s common. Little specialized players will show up, buy up excess capacity, and serve niche buyers at good prices. Some companies took this idea to the bank; IKEA bought up excess capacity in Eastern Europe long ago, and over time turned those little manufacturers into very competent producers.

Some industries require HUGE investment (like telecom) but cannot develop a unique product from it (for higher prices). They’ll sell excess capacity if they get the chance.

I hope the Federal Government does something useful with its excess capacity.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 8, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
I think he currently cares more about how Grimes rates him than Moody's.

Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
May 9, 2018 - 07:01am PT
I spent many years working in the automotive manufacturing business. The issues that Tesla is having producing the Model 3 are predictable for a newbie manufacturer of a mass-produced car. The positive side of Musk's approach is that he can start over on all designs and simplify them to get better engineering solutions. This is a huge advantage in complex systems which have otherwise been built up over time with compromises to accommodate prior decisions. This is the reason Musk is so successful. But low-cost mass production relies on suppliers to make components which are assembled into Tesla cars. While cars are large, almost all of their many parts must be precisely made for the vehicle to work, for both fit and function.

Another important, associated issue is the degree of component precision required to use automation: the more automation you use, the tighter all of the tolerance have to be in the components. Robots are pretty dumb; they do exactly what you tell them to do. They do not have much capability to make adjustments for variation in the parts. This is an enormous driver in the need for very tight tolerances. As parts are assembled, the tolerance stack-ups get wider. They may be centered on a mean value, but the tails of the distribution get longer. In an automated system, a one-in-a-thousand chance will shut you down. There are too many chances. One-in-a-million chance with lots of chances built into component interactions can be too much and can cause constant shut-downs: the odds are low, but the number of tries can be very high.

Clearly the Model 3 has assembly issues because the parts are not being delivered on time or parts are slightly off and cannot be assembled, or, while less likely in my opinion, there are technical issues with the actual function of parts. I think that the Model 3 manufacturing system is automated from end-to-end, there is no sensible way to intervene if something goes wrong.

I don't know the details, but a normal procedure is to assume the worst and build many buffers between blocks of automation. Electronics are made this way because small components can be taken on and off the line. For big stuff, you have to build gaps to create a time buffer by making the line longer and to design for human interaction. There is probably not room to make the line longer at the old Nummi plant in Fremont, and it doesn't help much to have room for humans to intervene if there are no humans.

From an odds perspective, a rocket ship launch is less likely to go wrong than a continuous string of autos on an automated line. A rocket may or may not be more complicated than an auto--I don't know--but doing anything exactly right multiple times in quick succession is very hard.

Fixing these issues after a design is set is very expensive and very time consuming. Mass production requires that parts are made using high-speed tooling. Changing tooling is expensive. Everything is connected, so a solution here creates a problem there. Deciding what to do is contentious. Heads roll. My guess is that Tesla is discovering that they were not as precise as they needed to be when designing for manufacturing, picking vendors, and approving tooling. The smallest details can create havoc.

My experience with this comes from being a supplier to GM GMT-800 program in 1999 when GM completely redesigned their SUVs and Pickups from the ground-up, so to speak, just as Tesla has done with the Model 3. I was hired to launch the supplier's new $75mm per year business.

My business career is based on figuring out how to make stuff that has not been made. I know many, many ways to be 98% correct and fail %100 of the time. I even know a few ways to be 99.9% correct and fail %100 of the time.

The company I ran had the contract to produce the engine mounts for all of GMs SUVs and Pickups, about 800,000 vehicles per year in about 20 different pairs. Unlike the Model 3, the volume of production with a vehicle change-over is pretty much instantaneous--you stop making last year's model, shutdown the assembly plant for a couple of weeks and then start making the new model. If you cannot make the vehicles, the customers buy a different vehicle from another supplier. There are complicated processes to make sure that everything is ready.

Engine mounts are bolted to the frame and must match to mounts bolted to the engine. The engine is 'dropped' onto the frame side engine mounts and three holes on two different surfaces and different planes on each side must match the holes in the mating bracket bolted onto the engine. This is not rocket science: simple design as automotive designs go.

But, the frame is moving on the assembly line. There are only about 60 seconds to get this done. The holes are deep within the engine well and are hard to see. The engine is heavy. Jerking it around to get the holes to match takes time and can cause damage. It only works if the tolerances and the fit-up are very precise. It didn't work. It is worth pointing out that the cost of a line stoppage at a GM plant is about $20,000 per minute.

GM was convinced that we had messed up the tooling, for which we had charged GM about $2,000,000. We had not messed up, and our parts were precisely made to GM's specifications, but we jumped through hoops to find a solution. It turned out that GM's engineering team had designed the engine mounts assuming that the slope of the metal between the mating surfaces would guide the engine into place and all six holes would line up, but they did not tell anyone their assumption. It was a flaky idea borne of the engineering team's lack of relevant experience: they did not know how metal was formed, did not understand that we followed the tolerances shown on the design prints, and they had not worked on an assembly line. They also did not know how all the small misalignments would interact to hang-up the engine on one side or the other.

On their computer models everything was perfect, but in real life, the sheet metal thins out as you bend it: it does not stay where the computer models says it will be. We had software which showed us how the metal would thin out. But GM did not have this sort of software; they didn't need it: they knew everything they needed to know. I doubt they thought about it very hard. In any case, it was not a sensible design criterion.

To get them back into production, our quick-witted sales and engineering managers suggested that we take our engine mounts and weld a little button on each side of the upper nose mount, ground down to a precise dimension, to guide the mating of the two parts. The sales manager picked a number out of the air--a very high number, more than doubling the part's cost--to charge GM until we could change the tools and fix the issue. Within a day we had a solution and about three days later were shipping parts with this fix. It cost GM millions of dollars, but relative to not building vehicles it was a bargain. Out little company made a lot of money. GM appreciated our can-do effort.

It took many months to rebuild the original tools to add this guiding feature into the metal itself. We had to add cost to the newly designed parts which GM then added to our price. This was just one of many issues that GM faced in launching the new SUV and Pickup designs. After a year or two they had worked out the issues and could build good vehicles and they eventually made money on them. But they pretty much soured on the idea of blank-slate designs. As an aside, Toyota, which for many years was the best at vehicle manufacturing, never designed from a blank slate. Their first Lexus was a Toyota on which they upgraded the engine, cabin surfaces, and a few other components. Over many years, they eventually upgraded everything so that it became a completely different car. Toyota knows what they don't know.

This sort of manufacturing humility is probably frowned upon at Tesla. It is hard to change the world. It is also normal for pretty much everyone to underestimate the issues someone else will have with our best ideas.

I would guess that since Tesla's model 3 is brand new, the potential for these sorts of issues is magnified many times. It is also likely that they lack the sort of experience that is needed: how do you evaluate someone's ability to do something they and you have never done. Finding solutions is generally not easy because the team must both understand all the old ways of doing things and map this into a new world they are creating, anticipate problems their suppliers will have without being able to rely on their supplier fully understanding how the parts will be used, and work from a clean slate to achieve the promise of the new vehicle. There is just not enough horsepower to get it all figured out. It is as if everyone suddenly finds themselves promoted into a job they cannot do, living the Peter Principle, including Musk. That said, I would guess that Musk is probably personally involved in sorting out all the issues. Otherwise there is no one around with enough authority and know-how to break the logjams.

This story is the same for Boeing and its Dreamliner a few years ago. What could possibly go wrong with a brand new design, new materials, with all of the components outsourced to suppliers around the world who had never made them before?

From a business perspective, Musk is probably right to say that they will fix the issues. However, he is like everyone else in over-estimating how quickly he can get it done. He is also probably correct in lying to the press and shareholders about how easy it will be work out the issues. Otherwise, it just looks like they are stupid--they are not. They just underestimated how hard it is to figure out really complex systems. That said, they should, as techies, have taken a lesson from Steve Jobs, who had more misses than successes in his new products.

One fall-out of these sorts of great-designs-meet-the-real-world-of-manufacturing is that the initial cost targets cannot be reached. Some mistakes can be addressed with a one-time cost, but many of these sorts of issues can only be addressed by adding cost and complexity: the very things that Musk is very good at eliminating.

I hope he succeeds. But I would not buy a Model 3 for a couple of years.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 9, 2018 - 07:24am PT
Nice write-up, Roger.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
May 9, 2018 - 08:21am PT
Thanks, Mike. Life after climbing, part 3.
dirtbag

climber
May 9, 2018 - 08:50am PT
Screw Elon musk.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
May 14, 2018 - 09:26am PT
After my thread-killing post above, I am hesitant to post anything else on Tesla's Model 3 assembly issues. That said, I have had several conversations with friends over the weekend, one of whom is considering buying a Tesla. I suggested that he not buy a Model 3 for a few years. He urged me to look a the videos of Tesla's robotic assembly, so I read a few things and watched a few videos.

Monro and Associates takes new cars apart and details all of the technology and estimates the cost of the vehicle and all of its components. It has been doing this for many years. They purchased two Model 3 and took them apart. The upshot: the battery, the electronics, the drive of the Model 3 is fantastic. The fit and finish of the mechanical assembly is very low quality. Keep this dichotomy in mind as you read the this post.

The talk is about the automation being the source of the delays, but in my experience, the robotic automation and the fit and finish are related. Robots are blind, one-handed, and dumb (BOB), Monro's term. Anything done by a robot has to be very precise. As parts are added to the vehicle structure, the "skateboard" in this case, the tolerances become more and more of a problem. Bad fit and finish, and halting assembly, are natural out-growths of this.

In the Monro interview, Tesla Model 3 Teardown Analysis, its CEO, Sandy Monro, articulates what is great about the Model 3 and what is very bad. (The video interview is long and I am not sure how well it will translate to non-automotive viewers. I found it interesting and informative, but I could follow the threads of the conversations.) The question is how did they get it so wrong?

In 2016, Tesla hired a manufacturing executive, Peter Hochholdinger, from Audi, as vice president of vehicle production, filling a critical position as the automaker tries to make more Model X crossover SUVs, introduce a new version of the Model S sedan, and develop its mass-market car, the Model 3.

The head of engineering, is Doug Field, formerly from Apple. Apparently Field was in charge of both engineering and production, so as to avoid the sorts of problems they are currently having. Field is now taking a 6-week sabbatical, right in the middle of a meld-down, and Musk is taking control of the assembly issues.

As an automotive guy, I think that what is happening could be foreseen: there is no reason to think that even a stellar electronic products engineering executive would know what corners to look around in automotive assembly. If you are in doubt about this assertion, think about what you would have thought if Apple had replaced Mr. Field with a stellar automotive engineer from Detroit?

From the WSJ:

Tesla’s Engineering Chief Takes Leave of Absence at Pivotal Moment

Doug Field is stepping away for several weeks, according to people familiar with the matter

Tesla Inc.’s top engineer overseeing vehicle development is taking a leave of absence from the company at a crucial moment when the electric-car maker is struggling to boost production of the Model 3 sedan, according to people familiar with the matter.

Doug Field, Tesla’s senior vice president of engineering, is stepping away from the company for several weeks, these people said. One person described the absence as a “six-week sabbatical,” and Tesla declined to say when he would come back.

Mr. Field has been a key leader at the Silicon Valley auto maker since joining in 2013 from Apple Inc. He oversees the engineering of Tesla’s vehicles, and last year he was also given oversight of production to better align the two efforts. That changed this spring when Chief Executive Elon Musk said he retook control of production.

In April, Mr. Musk wrote on Twitter that he would handle direct oversight of production and was back to sleeping on the factory floor. At the time, he praised Mr. Field as “one of the world’s most talented engineering execs.”

In a little over a year, Tesla has seen many of its senior leaders leave, including its chief financial officer and sales president.

The hiring of Mr. Field from Apple, where he was vice president of Mac hardware engineering, was touted as a win for Mr. Musk, who had big ambitions for Tesla. Mr. Field had also worked at Ford Motor Co. and Segway, giving him unique experience in both the tech and autos industry.

“Tesla’s future depends on engineers who can create the most innovative, technologically advanced vehicles in the world,” Mr. Musk said in a statement at the time. “Doug’s experience in both consumer electronics and traditional automotive makes him an important addition to our leadership team.”


Write to Tim Higgins at Tim.Higgins@WSJ.com

Did you notice the Mr. Field was credited with having automotive experience from Ford? He worked at Ford for six years right after he graduated from college in 1987. In 1997, ten years later, how to integrate components was still not understood by Ford, GM, or Chrysler or most of their suppliers.

Where in all of this the Audi executive is not clear: there is a good chance that he knows what should have been done, but there is also a good chance, in my opinion, that he would not have a clue. Knowing how to manage a business as well organized as Audi is not anywhere close to knowing what has to be done to create it from whole cloth.

I also believe that Musk is probably the only person who can figure this out. I am not speaking as a fan; these sorts of issues are always figured out by someone like Musk.



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2018 - 10:30am PT
I thought Hochholdinger was a design guy? If so putting him in charge of production is strange.

Two Teslas crashed last werk. One ran into the back of a fire truck! Clearly, the kool-aid
drinkers buying Teslas are blind with infatuation, or just plain blind.

Meanwhile Musk has announced a “thorough reorganization’. Boy’s got a lot on his plate.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
May 14, 2018 - 10:50am PT
Hochholdinger was a straight-up production guy in all his positions at Audi. In my experience with American, German, Japanese, and Chinese automotive executives, none were good bets to launch something brand new. That said it is very hard to figure out who will be good at large project management, new tecnology, and nuts-and-bolts manufacuting. I think that propably the only thing that should have been done and wasn't is Musk living at the factory for the past three years. Investors invested in Musk, not Hochholdinger or Field. In this regard, Musk and Tesla's board screwed up. Aside from Musk, the board doesn't look to bring much to the party. Shareholders should be upset. Hubris is an ancient frame of mind.
miker12

Boulder climber
Us
May 14, 2018 - 01:44pm PT
Why the hell only reach people will fly to Mars?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 18, 2018 - 09:37am PT
I was lucky to see a SpaceX launch last month. I spent a couple of months improving my thermal flying in Florida. I was about 4 hours from KSC.

I paid extra to observe it from the closest point, the LC:9 Gantry 2.3 miles away.

It was awesome. The noise was powerful, and got super loud when it was about 20 seconds into the flight.

Got a free hat and Falcon Heavy t-shirt....

Musk is a visionary. Willing to lose money for a decade in order to place himself in the lead.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 18, 2018 - 09:58am PT
Good article from Bloomberg...

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-burns-cash/

Tesla has $3.4 billion in cash but owes $9.4 billion!
couchmaster

climber
May 18, 2018 - 11:25am PT

Great writeup Roger! The numbers at Tesla look bad to me. Moose invested in them, and good luck with it as they seem terribly overvalued now.

However, good news, The Boring Co will be starting to ship flamethrowers in a couple weeks it's been announced. Of interest, it appears that the regular carriers may have reconsidered the delivery of said devices.

http://archive.li/FXb8w



jstan

climber
May 18, 2018 - 10:46pm PT
Great write up Roger. Read it all. When designing a new system we invariably break it into subtasks and assign different groups to do the tasks. The system engineer is concerned mainly with final assembly so in the drawing package that engineer gives most of the tolerance to final assembly; making final assembly easy. The person stuck with making small components has no tolerance and is left to make something perfect. These parts are generally referred to as "unobtainium." This leads to product being shipped with "holes in it."

New products require either giving power to someone who knows everything or to getting people to talk to each other. Homo sapiens are not inclined to do either of these things.
nah000

climber
now/here
May 18, 2018 - 11:05pm PT
yup another couple +1s for Breedlove’s posts above... missed them until now. interesting and well written insights... thanks.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
May 22, 2018 - 05:05am PT
The Consumer Reports conclusion sucks. I don't know how much sway they have in the market place, but they have excellent test protocols. No one launching a new product needs to have the product itself panned.

Separately, a friend who is in the market for a new car is considering a used Tesla S. He loves the car, but when compared to other luxury cars, it is too expensive. Also, the word is that a Tesla is great if you don't have any issues, but that Tesla's service is not good. This does not surprise me given that their business model, but is probably not such an issue with the luxury S. That said, Tesla S and X models have below average reliability scores, bracketed by Jeep and Lincoln. Not good company for cars which cost as much as a house. Reliability become an issue with more customers and lower cost cars. Tesla should hire old guys from KIA to help them with this issue.
EdBannister

Mountain climber
13,000 feet
Jun 7, 2018 - 10:30am PT
Tesla's top two, below Musk, quit last year. Right after having 400 million in deposits on undelivered cars, and borrowing 500 million on top of 1.2 billion in existing debt. They are burning through cash faster than they are producing cars.

It will be interesting to see how long before the bubble pops.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 7, 2018 - 10:58am PT
Bipolar people can be very productive and if they're intelligent and motivated can take big risks that others might not in their grandiose moments.

But I sure wouldn't bet the farm on 'em like getting on a rocket headed to Mars.

I still don't get the fully-electric car thing when hybrid designs make so much more sense.

The "self-driving" option takes a special kind of stupid to turn on except maybe in emergencies. IMO, if they removed that feature they'd be a lot better off.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 7, 2018 - 12:16pm PT
Man I have enjoyed driving my X this month! Now I can get to Squamish every weekend since it is free to drive the 4 hours - and enjoyable too!
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 7, 2018 - 09:33pm PT
(Interesting that there would be a thread on investing in a single company. There are many good (and bad) stories out there that could be discussed. I guess folks need a focus to talk about what interests them. Me, too.)


Roger,

IMO, companies at the stage of development like Tesla (who is also a standard bearer for a technology) must scale. It’s all they really think about. It’s important.

To be a long-term competitor, firms must find ways to get their costs down. In industries such as this, scale enables it. Scale is necessary. I worked at Cisco Systems for a while, and it was all they could think about. In their time, they made more money than God, and they did everything they could to build scale. Car companies show this understanding since that same God was in knee pants. Scale brings so many benefits to the buyer other than costs, too—like experience curves and customer linkages and the excess capital to increase customer service, etc. In many industries, “size matters” (for you males who could not give up long-necked beer bottles, me included).

Yo, I don’t mean to sell any spirituality here, but almost everything that one sees in business can be explained. Knowing does not mean solving. Almost anyone around the block can see / find problems in organizations. Given that there are scarce resources, the question becomes: what are your priorities (usually 3 or less), and how are you going to deal with them?

I recently read a historian who claimed that it was only relatively recently that work became work. Beforehand, it was the way one expressed himself part and parcel in the community. General managers now must find ways to energize and engaged the people who make up the organization. Vision, charisma, mission are all pretty important. In this regard, Tesla has an audience. However, as I’ve heard (only from a very biased sample), on the inside, all’s not perfect with Tesla.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 7, 2018 - 11:22pm PT
Express oneself? I thought the idea was to make money? Ya goes onto StuporTopo to express yerself, on yer OWN TIME! Course, if yer bankrupt then ya gots lots of time to express yerself.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 8, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
When all the truth comes out, people are finally going to realize that Musk was a decently talented tech guy, who got exceptionally lucky to make his initial fortune, bought into his own hype and bullsh#t, and is so far from a "visionary" or "genius" it's not even funny.

I'll give Musk more credit than that. He made his initial fortune that no doubt was a combination of skill and luck.

He started a private space company from scratch that, if I understand correctly, is actually profitable. That is jaw-dropping. Rocket science is hard. I would have thought it would have been easier to be the first new car manufacturer in 80 some years.

He created a brand new sports car company with a fanatical, Apple iphone sort of loyalty. Amazing.

His initial sports car seemed to be doing pretty well.

But if you keep betting the company on trying to scale up and the next thing, giga-battery factory, mass produced cars, electric semi-trucks.

I think eventually you are going to roll snake eyes.

I'm not optimistic Musk is going to make it mass producing electric cars on low margins.

It may be too late, but if he really wanted this to succeed I think he should sell Tesla to a large car company. When VW was trying to get out from under diesel-gate, they would have been a good choice. They know how to mass produce cars on low margins and Tesla would have fast tracked their switch to electric. But I'm not sure VW would get as much out of it today.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 8, 2018 - 02:30pm PT
He created a brand new sports car company with a fanatical, Apple iphone sort of loyalty.

Not sure that is a rousing endorsement. The guy recently killed in his Tesla was a 38 yr old Apple software engineer who wasn’t either smart enough to read the manual or pay attention.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 9, 2018 - 11:26am PT
Moose,

Market domination is most often a result of many factors, most of which are pretty much out of people’s control. History plays a big role, and very little events can end up having an unforeseen effect that creates market winners. There is also market dominance from uncompetitive behaviors.

I think someone once said that every business fortune has some larceny in its history. I can’t think of a market that is really free. One might think farming and commodities markets would appear to be most “open and free,” but there are many things that go on in those markets that tilt the playing field.

I would add that there is also luck, but I don’t really know what that is or really means.

If you want to point to a good business organization, find one that has truly innovated twice in a row.

As for the brilliance of Jobs and the wonder of Apple, there is quite the story how Apple “innovated” the MacIntosh and then essentially squandered an 8 year lead on Microsoft. The story turns on how Xerox created PARC and then ignored innovations that later created new and different industries. The whipping that Microsoft later gave Apple was not lost on Jobs when he returned to the Chief Executive suite. He finally understood how to create what are called “lock-outs.” (There is now a relatively new branch of economics that describe “increasing returns to adoption.”)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 9, 2018 - 12:21pm PT
Rocket science, despite public image, really isn't "hard".

The fundamentals aren't hard, but significantly lowering manufacturing costs, developing reusable components, and dramatically upping your launch tempo is actually quite hard.

The "hyperloop" is one of the single stupidest things I've ever seen get funded. The scale and cost of infrastructure involved compared to something like standard high speed rail, vs the very small advantages, should have killed that in the conceptual stage.

Interstate and urban permitting issues alone warrant exploring all possible options, particularly on the east coast. And that includes highspeed rail and energy infrastructure like direct-current electrical transmission interties. It's also what forced Google-led Atlantic Grid Development, LLC offshore onto the continental shelf for a new east coast interconnecting transmission line and even it is running into issues attempting to bring power ashore.

Developing a fast, multipurpose tunneling technology really isn't crazy at all.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 9, 2018 - 12:37pm PT
Rocket science, despite public image, really isn't "hard". Cutting edge medical technology is hard. The "hard" work has already been done in that arena.

The fundamental difference here is that being a new car manufacturer requires scaling a very complicated manufacturing effort quickly, in a notoriously cyclical, intensely competitive, low margin business, before running out of working capital, on top of competing to win enough market share to stay in business at all. Competition is against corps with extensive experience, capital-intensive existing infrastructure, and enormous scale.

Private space launch company is competing against - who exactly? There aren't many alternatives to getting, say, a com satellite into orbit. This while using, for a tiny fraction of the cost of establishing, taxpayer funded launch facilities.

Rocket science, despite public image, really isn't "hard".

It was coined in the 60s. We use it now as a metaphor.

DMT


Sure, we put a man on the moon in the 60s. It is still a low volume, high risk activity. Really expensive satellites regularly fail to reach orbit. It happened last January.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-satellite/u-s-spy-satellite-believed-destroyed-after-failing-to-reach-orbit-officials-idUSKBN1EY087

January 8, 2018
A U.S. spy satellite that was launched from Cape Canaveral, Florida, aboard a SpaceX rocket on Sunday failed to reach orbit and is assumed to be a total loss, two U.S. officials briefed on the mission said on Monday.
...
Northrop Grumman built the multibillion-dollar satellite, code-named Zuma, and was responsible for choosing the SpaceX Falcon 9 launch vehicle, both officials said.

If multi-billion means "3" billion and if the Model 3 goes for an average price of ~$50,000, you could buy 60,000 Model 3's for the price of one rocket failure. If Tesla could ever, actually, you know, deliver said vehicles.

From the media reports, its not clear if SpaceX is to blame or if "a payload adapter" built by Northrop is to blame, but it still looks like the mission was sunk by "rocket failure". This stuff isn't an off-the-shelf commodity.

Private space launch company is competing against - who exactly? There aren't many alternatives to getting, say, a com satellite into orbit.

I'm not against the US trying to encourage a free market space industry. When the idea was floated, it wasn't clear that a private start-up could ever get enough reliability to compete with government agencies such as NASA, direct contracts (not free-market) from the military, and then there are the Russians, Europeans, and Chinese who will all launch commercial satellites for a fee.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 9, 2018 - 01:23pm PT
Will his time machine let me know when to short Tesla stock?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 9, 2018 - 01:32pm PT
“If Tesla could ever, actually, you know, deliver said vehicles”.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 9, 2018 - 01:45pm PT
Somebody be playin’ with their numbas! If the Model 3 is already at 30% of market share how come I’ve seen like 3 of them, ever? I could go out and see 3 of any of those others in the next 2 minutes, just within two blocks! Where they hiding ‘em?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 9, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
Share of sales. For the month stated on the graph that we learn to read in grade six. It doesn’t say percentage of cars on the road. It is market share of sales for the month, over 500/day. Or are you just playing dumb? Just laugh it off and pretend you were trying to be funny and top it off by being patronizing.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 9, 2018 - 10:34pm PT
You reading comprehension challenged types are so gullible, not to mention humourless.
You do have my sincerest pity.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 9, 2018 - 10:47pm PT
That would be one of the most impressive market share grabs in history. According to the graph, Tesla’s share went from, what . . . 4% to 30% in 6 months. Wow!

Reservations are not sales. The graph is not lying, but it’s hardly telling the truth.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 10, 2018 - 04:54am PT
Those aren’t reservations. They are US deliveries. You really don’t know that they are building and delivering almost 5000/week now? Most are coming up here to Canada right now do they don’t pass the 200,000 mark this month and trigger a 50% reduction in the federal tax credit for you Americans. If you wait till July 1 the reduction kicks in December 31 instead of June 30/October31 scenario which means thousands of Americans missing out on the tax credit. Once they turn off the Canada deliveries in July you will see the red line on that graph spike even more.


If it were a reservations graph, there wouldn't be any other manufacturers on there, since they aren't taking reservations, just orders painfully negotiated at a dealership. Plus, the red line would be much higher, 450,000 reservations and growing. This business model of having all that demand means all the supply will be sold, no 2017's left sitting on lots like with the i3, Leaf, Bolt, etc.
A Essex

climber
Jun 10, 2018 - 05:47am PT
Trumpo will heavily tax and effectively ban electric vehicles

mark my words
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 10, 2018 - 06:15am PT
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 10, 2018 - 07:20am PT
The fact that Ford and GM haven't gone into the electric segment in any meaningful way for automakers that large tells you something. The fact that 10 years ago Elon put together a 10-year plan, and now has part 2 out, hitting all the goals along the way tells you something. The fact that there is a crossover and then truck coming up next in the lineup tells you the rest of the story.

Taking any one piece of the pie out of the story tells you something, but an incomplete part of the puzzle.




An interesting comment on the price... my monthly budget hasn't changed after switching from payments and fuel and insurance on a Tundra to payments and fuel and insurance on a Model X. The fuel part offsets the payments part. The insurance is the same. I figure giving an American company money for their auto is the tradeoff I have to suffer if I can't give Saudi's money for their oil.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 10, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
Those aren’t reservations. They are US deliveries. You really don’t know that they are building and delivering almost 5000/week now?

And based on Tesla history, those Model 3s will have more recalls than all the other vehicles you showed on that graph combined.

They are, at most, delivering 5000 prototypes a week.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 10, 2018 - 02:45pm PT
Not from what I have experienced. But certainly the story according to the hyped media to fool the unaware.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 13, 2018 - 08:49am PT
True to Elon’s tweet, shorts have lost about two billion so far this month on $TSLA.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 13, 2018 - 07:45pm PT
Tooth: Taking any one piece of the pie out of the story tells you something, but an incomplete part of the puzzle.

Let's look at that.

You did notice, didn't you, that the category presented is almost entirely "electric vehicles?" It's a niche. (It's been made clear from the beginning, that Musk will not make hybrids, which has much better economics, production economies, and surer technologies.) Electric passenger vehicles has been a niche for the last 15 years.

BTW, My research from industry trade rags indicated the claimed sales were reservations. Perhaps you have a more compelling source than Tesla itself.

I applaud innovation when I see it. But in corporate enterprise, it's a two-step dance. One, new product innovation. Two, innovation in production, otherwise called commercialization. The second one is waaayyyy harder. Trust me on this one.

As I think I said above, scale will determine a winner in a heavy capital intensive industry. I grant you that Tesla may be winning in his niche, but until he achieves the kinds of economies developed by truly innovative production capabilities (think Toyota about 15-20 years ago), Tesla will remain a niche player and not be able to become a dominant player in the industry.

There is a long list of one-off innovators who were impressively successful, but very very few who did it twice in a row. Musk is attempting what they would call in hockey a hat trick.

Be well.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 13, 2018 - 10:24pm PT
Yes! In most ways, we all want the company to succeed.
couchmaster

climber
Jun 15, 2018 - 03:39pm PT
Elon Musk news I didn't see posted. Some of it's almost a month old but here ya are:

After ripping the dishonest media on Twitter, Musk said he was going to start a web site to keep a scorecard on truthful vs untruthful reporters and news sites. He was going to call it Pravda but it turned out some Russian folks had that site. He was happy to find that PravDUH was available, so look for Pravduh coming up.

Next: The Boring Company ran into issues on shipping the Flamethrowers noted upthread but deftly renamed them so as to not run a fowl of the law. The newly renamed "NOT A FLAMETHROWER" is now shipping. So look for those to show up at your homes soon kids, and remember, they don't ship with fire extinguishers. The "overpriced" (Musk's exact wording) Boring Company fire extinguishers are available at extra $$$.

Lastly: the name for the Tunnel Boring machine has been determined. The newly named machine, called Godot, (LOL! crap - this stuff is all so funny) is hard at work. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/13/elon-musks-boring-machine-electric-sled/
There's a video of the sled which they expect to carry cars at 125 mph underneath cities which is pretty good. Don't watch it if you have seizures. https://www.instagram.com/p/BT_itC8h0Cx/?utm_source=ig_embed



...a fowl...heh...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 15, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
On BBC I heard them talking about the Chicago hole. At its peak it would handle 2000 bodies/hour which is what a decent subway handles in a few minutes. It’s just that subways are for proles and punters and fancy schmancy E ticket tubes are for toffs. I just don’t get why all you pinko proles think it is so swell.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 15, 2018 - 06:06pm PT
Хорошо! I’m gonna invest in the new electric Zhiguli!
BTW, FYI, I’ve plenty of TSLA stock, I live to yank yer chain. You knew that, right?
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
Jun 15, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
1000 Tesla employees got emails at 1 Am in the morning to participate in a online meeting, at 8Am the next day, security removed their badges and and let go.


There 155 electric car company of some sort now in silicon valley working on the next cheap electric car and 80% are from China

Tesla will be filling chap 11
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 16, 2018 - 10:24am PT
Musk has positioned Tesla as a growth company, but he just had to lay off 9% of his employees. That, and the company is having problems with their fundamental task: building cars. Today car makers are enjoying a boom while Tesla is shrinking. I think we're about to see the ideals of the tech world collide head on with the realities of the car making world.

You know the old adage, buy low sell high? Now might be the time to do the latter.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 16, 2018 - 12:09pm PT
Tesla will be filling chap 11

It is certainly possible Musk runs it into chap 11. I still think it would be a better move to sell it to another car maker before it got to that point. Musk would probably only do that if investors really forced him to, but that could happen.

And even though I think the odds are against him, I don't rule out the possibility that Tesla gets through this rough patch and some day becomes a profitable company.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 16, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
It is certainly possible Musk runs it into chap 11

Possible?

If you retards ever read my posts (and anything else other than The Daily Worker) you would recall that not long ago I posted Tesla’s Altman Z-Score, a respected and quite reliable measure of a firm’s liklihood to go bankrupt. Solvent firms run in the mid to high 4’s. Anything less than 3 is cause for grave concern. Below 1.8 and it’s time to call the undertaker. Tesla’s, as of only a few week’s ago, was 1.3!!!!! Glowing press releases and Chairman Musk rants ain’t gonna fix that.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 16, 2018 - 09:58pm PT
17,000 cars burn each year in the US but one Tesla makes the news. 17,000 climbers summit a route each year but one rope soloing couple falls off el Cap and my mom freaks out that I’m headed out climbing since that’s all the news talks about. Even though a gas car burns four times more often than a battery car and a newb raps off his rope more often than those of us who have been climbing for 20+ years.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 17, 2018 - 04:15am PT
Moose, I suspect he is hoping you don’t suffer unduly from yer recto-cranial infarction.

The man is trying to tackle some of the biggest problems of our times.
Going to Mars is a problem? It’s not even a First World problem! And please don’t disillusion me by telling us you think his elitist subterranean white elephant benefits anything remotely close to the majority of us. And the problem of building cars economically is only a problem for him, and his crankloon kool-aid drinking investors.

BTW, I think I erred in saying I have much TSLA stock. I sold most of my funds with it quite a while ago and put the money into bonds. I’m sure I still have some but I haven’t bothered to look.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 17, 2018 - 07:26am PT
I sell carbon sequestering machines. They are called trees.

If you are worried about powering electricity with dirty coal plants or something , look at the stars and what power has been added this year and what is in the pipeline. The grid is getting cleaner and has the possibility to go all non carbon producing. Gasoline cars do not have that trend or option. I’ll keep my overpriced golf cart since it is run by falling water and sunlight here and it can outrun any car that doesn’t do 0-60 in 3.4 seconds.

Here's a good article from the dailykos

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Upfront: If you think that anything is justified against a person simply because that person is wealthy, this is not an article for you. If you think it’s okay to lie, mislead, or otherwise attack a person simply because of their financial status, consequences be damned, then you should probably look elsewhere. You won’t have far to look.

We, Model 3 owners and people on the waiting list, have noticed a strange, disturbing, but all too explicable trend whenever the topic of Tesla comes up with people who don’t follow the company in detail.

“Tesla… didn’t they go bankrupt?”
“Too bad you’re never going to get your car, given that they’re going bankrupt. They lose money on every car they sell.”
“Isn’t that that car that killed people?”
“I wouldn’t get into one, with all those fires.”
“But all their management is fleeing!”
“I can’t support Tesla, they treat their workers terribly.”
Yet the reasons for these sorts of reactions, as frustrating as they are, are all too clear. Let us begin with the basics.

1. It’s hard to overstate how much people stand to lose from Tesla’s success.

Contrary to a newly emerging narrative that Tesla has “had it easy” in the press, Tesla has been smeared from Day 1. Back in the Roadster Days, TTAC for example ran a “Tesla Deathwatch” series, supposedly counting down the days until Tesla’s inevitable bankruptcy. Top Gear famously staged a scene where the Roadster supposedly ran out of power on the track and had to be pushed off (it didn’t), suffered a dangerous brake failure (it only suffered a blown fuse and never lost braking power), and a bunch of myths about EVs in general and the Roadster in particular, concerning charge time, range, and general usability.

But then, it was just an ideology at stake. Today it’s much, much bigger.

Tesla is the most shorted stock in the United States — 10,7 billion dollars bet against it. What does this mean? In short selling, you pay a stockholder interest to “borrow” their shares, which you promptly sell, with an obligation to buy them back for the stockholder later. Because these stockholders would not have otherwise sold their stock, it injects new stock into the market, which depresses the stock value. Inversely, when shorts cover their position by buying the stock back later, this creates extra buying that otherwise wouldn’t have happened, elevating the price.

Short selling is always dangerous, but it’s unusually dangerous when a large portion of the stock is in short positions. The downside to a short position is technically unlimited; if you shorted a stock at $1 a share and it rose to $1 million a share, your losses would be a million times your investment. To prevent shorts from getting into a situation that they can’t get out of, short positions come with contractual obligations to cover their shorts (aka, buy back the stock) if the stock price rises too much. However, as shorts buy back stock, this raises the price of the stock, which can trigger other shorts to be forced to cover. This self-perpetuating cycle is known as a short squeeze. The more of a company’s stock is shorted, the more of a risk there is for a short squeeze, and the more the price will spike during it; in a Tesla short squeeze, the shorts would have to buy nearly a quarter of all of the stock in the market in a relatively short period of time. But most entities holding Tesla’s stock are long-term investors, and correspondingly don’t want to sell. This puts even more upward pressure on the stock.

Tesla has gone through several short squeezes before (due to the large number of people who either don’t believe in EVs, don’t believe in automotive upstarts, or just simply don’t like Musk). But never on this scale. To reiterate, if Tesla’s stock rises too much, people with 10,7 billion dollars bet against Tesla stand to utterly lose their shirt

So far, they’ve managed to control this. As production delays with the Model 3 have been being resolved and the company moves toward an increasingly clear road to profitability in Q3/Q4, short sellers have been increasing their short positions, offsetting the gains in Tesla’s stock that would normally occur.

t.jpg
But this tactic has run out of rope; they’re running out of stock to short. Only a fraction of the available stock is in institutions that lend to short sellers; they cannot endlessly borrow more to sell, and what remains is now charging much higher interest rates to do so.

Literally the only thing short sellers can do at this point to try to hold the price down is FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). And they have $10,7 billion dollars on the line in order to do so.

2. It should be understood who, exactly, the shorts are betting against.

When people picture Tesla’s stock holders, they generally picture a bunch of silicon valley hippies investing to save Mother Earth. Reality, however, tells a different story. The largest owners of Tesla stock are, in order:

T. Rowe Price Associates, Inc. (9.21%)
Fidelity Management and Research Company (8,23%)
Baillie Gifford & Co Limited. (7,53%)
Tencent Holdings Ltd (4,95%)
Vanguard Group Inc (4.20%)
Capital World Investors (2.62%)
BlackRock Institutional Trust Company (2.04%)
Jennison Associates LLC (2.00%)
BlackRock Inc (1.29%)
State Street Corp (1.47%)
BAMCO Inc (0.96%)
Invesco PowerShares Capital Mgmt LLC (0.81%)
Susquehanna Financial Group, LLLP (0.75%)
PRIMECAP Management Company (0.65%)
Geode Capital Management, LLC (0.61%)
Goldman, Sachs & Co. (0.57%)
Morgan Stanley & Co Inc (0,55%)

Around 3/4ths of Tesla’s stock is held by major institutional investors — companies who have built their empires based on choosing good stocks. Furthermore, institutional investors have recently been increasing their stakes in the company.

The shorts aren’t betting against dirty ignorant hippies that Tesla is going to fail. They’re betting against ruthless Wall Street bean counters.

Why did these firms invest?

3. Tesla’s vehicles have large margins.

A common myth is that Tesla loses money on every car they sell. This can only be arrived at by the most naive of calculations: taking their quarterly losses and dividing by the number of vehicles sold. But Tesla has been spending massive amounts of money on capex in order to build huge factories and expand their store, service and charging networks in advance of the flood of new Model 3s. Rapidly growing companies run negatives (see Amazon), and it’d be utterly irresponsible of them not to. No investor in such a company wants the company to start paying dividends when they’re small; they want them running at as much of a loss as they can sustain while they divert all of their funds into scaleup.

So how does Tesla actually do on a per-vehicle basis? To that, we turn to the quarterly reports. Before Model 3 production became significant — aka, just S and X sales — Tesla was earning a 25% non-GAAP margin / 27,9% GAAP margin in their automotive division. These are very healthy margins. As Model 3 production ramped up — and famously encountered difficulty — Tesla’s gross margins fell, bottoming out at 13,8% non-GAAP and 18,3% GAAP, before rising back to 18,8% non-GAAP and 19,7% margin.

Now, working against Tesla’s budget sheets has always been two big line items: research and development, and SG&A (Sales, General & Administrative expense). The first, however, rises little to none in proportion to the volume of vehicles being manufactured. The latter rises somewhat in proportion to manufacturing volume, but less than linearly, and more to the point you have to pay much of it in advance of reaching high volumes. In short, over the coming years, these will become swamped by the (ever growing) automotive margins. Nothing to mention Tesla’s emerging solar and energy storage product lines, both of which should start becoming significant late this year.

4. Let’s just pretend that none of that was true.

And let’s pretend that Tesla was actually in trouble, for the sake of argument.

Tesla has significant physical assets which they can borrow against which they have not yet borrowed from
Tesla can reduce R&D at will (and to a lesser extent, SG&A) — the two main negatives on their balance sheet.
Tesla can dilute its stock by issuing new shares; with nearly half a million people on a waiting list, the intrinsic value of the company means that there’s always going to be a buyer.
Musk can create contracts at will from SpaceX (and, to a lesser extent, Boring Company). SpaceX is on a roll and flush with cash.
Musk can sell off a portion of his SpaceX stake to personally bail out Tesla. There’s a massive demand for buying into SpaceX that hasn’t been able to be filled because it’s privately held. And Musk has shown repeatedly throughout his history that he isn’t, if anything, afraid to go personally “all in”.
To sum up: Tesla is in no way, shape, or form going away. Period.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the executive departures: there have not been an unusually high rate, Tesla just has an unusually large number of people at the director/VP level or higher. But don’t let that interfere with breathless headlines like “Tesla Executives Continue To Flee As The Company Goes Rogue” (Forbes), “There's something wrong: Tesla's rapid executive turnover raises eyebrows as Musk thins the ranks” (Financial Post), etc.

5. The scaremongering, however, does not appear to be going away either.

1,3 million people die in road accidents per year. How many of them do you hear about? Yet literally every time someone dies in a Tesla (vehicles which are becoming increasingly common, and thus will be crashing more often), it’s front-page news — sometimes covered for weeks on end. If there’s a fire, the story is “EVs are dangerous in fires” or “Teslas are dangerous in fires”, despite this having been debunked years ago, and again recently. A gasoline vehicle is statistically five times more likely to catch fire per unit distance travelled than an EV. In the US alone, 174000 gasoline and diesel vehicles burn per year; where’s the headlines?

The reason for the safety, in case anyone is curious, is that the individual battery cells are not only physically isolated from each other, but also surrounded by non-flammable coolant; the rupture of one cell just dumps its heat into the coolant. A pack generally has to be severely mangled to be able to burn. Here’s the front of a Model S that was literally burned to the ground without managing to catch the pack (further back, under the driver and passengers) on fire:

img_2805.jpg
Of course, if there’s no fire, the standard fallback is, “blame it on Autopilot”.

Tesla has by far the most vehicles on the road with level 2 autonomy features. Level 2 means a combination of a human and a computer, with the human in charge. This contrasts with level 3 (the computer is in charge, but the human must be able to take charge at a moment’s notice), level 4 (the computer is in charge and can get itself out of trouble, but cannot drive in all conditions on its own), and level 5 (the computer never needs assistance). 1/3rd to 1/2 of all miles in Teslas are driven on Autopilot. Every time there’s an accident, there’s immediately entirely-baseless speculation that Autopilot was on.

Take, for example, the recent Tesla crash near San Ramon, CA. Right away in the first paragraph, speculation that Autopilot was on! Then again, 4th paragraph! Then concluding with a paragraph talking about deaths that have occurred when on Autopilot. Because of course, when you don’t know the facts, the perfectly responsible course of action is scaremongering, right? Of course, nestled in-between in this little nugget:

The driver's speed in the 35-mph zone was not yet known, but "it was great enough to leave the roadway, hit a fence, keep going down an embankment and into a pond on the property," Jacowitz said.

The fastest AP would allow you to drive on that road is 40mph. If the car was moving at a great speed, by definition Autopilot was not on. Despite having all of the evidence right in front of them, did they bother to mention this? Of course not.

By the way, Autopilot was not on. As is most commonly the case. The initial story got a huge amount of coverage. The reveal? Very little.

Of course, when Autopilot was at fault, they cover it for weeks or more. They’re still covering the highway speed crash into a stopped fire truck that left a woman (who was using her phone and not looking at the road) with a broken ankle. I’ll repeat: a highway speed crash into a stopped fire truck left her only with a broken ankle. Teslas have an amazing safety record, with an average fatality rate of 1 in 320 million miles, compared to the US average of 1 in 86 million. Yes, they’re on average newer, and yes, they’re on average in a higher price category. But this is nonetheless an amazingly good safety record. And to reiterate, 1/3rd to 1/2 of all miles on Teslas are on Autopilot.

One can rightfully understand why hearing “Is that the car that kills people?” is amazingly frustrating.

As an aside: we’ve probably all heard of the Consumer Reports testing, where they talked about how much they loved the vehicle, but couldn’t recommend it because after one emergency braking stop, subsequent braking stops were inconsistent in length, and sometimes worse than a pickup. They also reported problems with wind noise and a stiff ride (although these have been fixed for months; the CR cars are early production). Not as widely reported: Tesla diagnosed the problem remotely (ABS calibration), fixed it in a day, and rolled out the fix within a week. Compare that to, say how GM handled the ignition switch controversy — a decade of denial and downplaying. Just days ago, Fiat announced a recall for 5,3 million cars due to cruise control getting stuck on, leaving drivers in the terrifying position of having to fight their car to a stop with the brakes. But it got almost no coverage compared to the Model 3 testing, which required two emergency stops in a row, to brake like a pickup.

Regardless, Consumer Reports plans to retest.

6. Who needs shorts when you have UAW?

I’m normally very pro-union. I'm a union member at my current job, and (unsuccessfully) voted to unionize in my last job. But UAW’s actions in this regard have left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

Tesla’s Fremont factory used to be NUMMI, a GM-Toyota joint venture — and a UAW shop. During the automotive downturn in the late ‘00s, there was pressure to cut back on US manufacturing. To save their Detroit base, UAW dropped NUMMI like a hot potato. Workers were furious.


Because Tesla moved in, many of these same people now have jobs again, and UAW is about as popular there as the plague. They’ve been trying to unionize the Tesla factory for years and haven’t been able to get enough signatures; they can hardly even get anyone to show up to a free BBQ. But hey, if you can’t beat them, why not spend nearly half a million dollars to smear Tesla?

UAW frequently argues that the Tesla factory is “unsafe”. Most commonly they rely on data from three years ago (when Tesla was still learning mass manufacturing), which showed their factory as having a 33% higher injury rate than the national average (8,8 recordable incidents per 100 workers). Ignoring that they’re around the national average now, UAW neglects to mention that when the plant was a union shop, it had an injury rate of 30-45 recordable incidents per year before Toyota stepped in, and even in its later years was double the rate at the Tesla factory today.

(And for the record — Musk has publicly called for a vote on unionization).

7. But hey, send in the cavalry.

Step up Reveal, an “independent journalism organization” to start “reporting” on Tesla. Quotation marks are normally considered to denote sarcasm, and boy do I ever mean it.

Reveal seems to have made it their goal to prove that Tesla’s Fremont factory is some horribly dangerous place — in a manner that’s covered with UAW’s fingerprints. Strangely, they never thought to bother to mention a single injury anywhere else in the auto industry, because I guess everyone else is spotless. They additionally push the notion that Tesla has been “keeping injuries off the books”, ignoring that Cal/OSHA is probably the most stringent auditor in the nation and Tesla has never been cited for doing so (while the Big Three have been repeatedly cited — but you wouldn’t know this from listening to them). Mainly, though, they focus on “personal stories”, which are nice and convenient because even if they’re false, the company can’t respond because it would interfere in any potential litigation.

The first of their “personal stories” was about how a person involved in developing the factory was told that they can’t use yellow caution tape or beeping forklifts because they offend Musk’s sensibilities. The lack of these things, according to Reveal, could be to blame for the “high” rate of injuries.

Now, apparently Reveal never discovered The Google, or couldn’t allocate 30 seconds for fact checking, because literally you just go to Google Images or YouTube and search for the Tesla Fremont factory, and here’s what you see:

1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg
CBS This Morning

Etc, etc, etc.

After being repeatedly badgered by Reveal on Twitter, Musk responded sarcastically:


Reveal

@reveal
21 May
Replying to @elonmusk and 3 others
Hi Elon. We'd love to have you on the show to talk with @al_letson.

Meantime, the story was based on internal company documents, interviews with five former members of the Tesla safety team and dozens of other current and former employees.

More detail:https://twitter.com/reveal/status/986294387259748352


Elon Musk

@elonmusk
Cool, we can do the interview at Tesla in front of the yellow barriers & beeping forklifts you said didn’t exist. Please send your meeting request to wakassliar@tesla.com.

2:15 PM - May 21, 2018
1,498
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Now, having been duly corrected about their error, Reveal did the proper journalistic thing and promptly posted a retraction... haha no, I’m just kidding, they made no mention of their falsehoods and just doubled down on their single-target hit piece series.

In Reveal pieces, you can see the similar fact checking quality applied to everything they do. You’ll learn about the guy injured in an arc flash which threw him “15-20 feet through the air”, because apparently the laws of physics have stopped working and we now live in a cartoon. (Yes, we’ve all seen people “thrown long distances by explosions” in the movies; that doesn’t happen in real life. That’s done with hydraulics). You’ll also hear about the guy who was left with “permanent lung damage” when a piece of metal being welded near him caught fire and he breathed in the fumes. As someone who also welds, I know the sickness well; if you heat galvanized steel too much the zinc coating can catch fire, and the resulting zinc overdose you get from breathing the fumes leads to uncomfortable symptoms very similar to the flu. Also similar to the flu in regards to the fact that unless you overdose so much that it kills you, it goes away. Zinc is an essential dietary nutrient; your body digests it over time. You cannot be left permanently disabled by a zinc overdose.

Of course, Reveal has shown no interest whatsoever in fact checking. If you have anything bad to say about Tesla, by all means, give them a call. They'll write an article about whatever you tell them.

8. Enter Twitter.

For a while I had thought it was just we — Tesla owners and people on the waiting list — who were getting extremely frustrated by the way Tesla was being covered. Musk had — with the occasional snarky comment or retort — mostly been staying silent. That changed late last week. Irked on by a combination of aggressive UAW supporters on his twitter feed, Reveal, and an unfortunately timed false article condemning him for meeting with the Saudi crown prince due to Yemen (he never met with him; the journalist posted a retraction), Musk started tweeting about his annoyance with false reports and announced plans to create a crowdsourced site where users can rate journalists for accuracy. And Twitter lost its collective mind.

Just over the weekend it spawned four new controversies. From least significant to most:

1) NanoGate: Musk criticized a person (in response to their criticism of him) as them not being an actual scientist because they were crowdfunding “nanotech” research, and Musk considers nanotech to be a vacuuous buzzword. This is being widely spread (somewhat in the press, but mainly on Twitter) as “Elon hates science”.

2) CultGate: A person with legitimate journalistic credentials (Jens Erik Gould) tweeted to Musk an op-ed on The Knife analyzing recent coverage of him in the press, noting their heavy use of weasel-words about him and generally only citing one side of any given story. What Musk didn’t know (and wasn’t immediately obvious) is that Gould is now involved with a recently-prosecuted cult (NXIVM), and The Knife is one of their websites. When this was pointed out to him, Musk deleted his retweet and apologized. This is being spun (particularly in the press) as Musk just randomly tweeting out op-eds from a cult site because they happened to suit him.

3) MisogynyGate: Journalist Erin Biba — who had previously written personal attacks against Musk on Twitter (including about his genitals), but then hid her twitter feed when they were pointed out — condemned Musk for “attacks on science”. He responded, “I have never attacked science. Definitely attacked misleading journalism like yours though.” Biba responded by accusing Musk of misogyny, in a conversation that had literally nothing whatsoever to do with gender. She recently wrote an Op-Ed on the Daily Beast talking about receiving personal attacks from “MuskBros”, saying that Musk’s following on Twitter is “angry men”, even though just a cursory reading of the comments shows around a 50-50 gender split.

Is it worth mentioning that SpaceX’s president of 10 years, hand-picked by Musk (and one of the company’s first employees), is Gwynne Shotwell?

Myndaniðurstaða fyrir site:flickr.com gwynne shotwell
4) AntiSemitismGate: Perhaps the most ridiculous. When someone tweeted to Musk suggesting that powerful people were trying to destroy the media, Musk responded, “Who do you think*owns* the media?” A concept that we here, annoyed at Sinclair and the Murdoch empire, would quite agree with. But of course, why interpret something according to context when you can turn it into a smear? That’s right — the interpretation Twitter went with — and shamefully, some press accounts — was that Musk was trying to say that Jews control the media. Even more annoyingly, this led to an influx of deplorables into Musk’s twitter feed.

In case it needs clarifying:


Ben Collins

@oneunderscore__
26 May
Replying to @elonmusk and 4 others
Uhhh Elon where are you going with this


Elon Musk

@elonmusk
Pointing out to aspiring journo & Rodin spokesmodel, Josh Top, who thinks public polls are controlled by “powerful people” that the media is *owned* by same. Anyone who thought this was anti-Semitic is just revealing their inner bigot. The context is very clear.

9:07 PM - May 27, 2018
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For the record: while he’s not Jewish, Elon is a Hebrew name, and he’s proud of it. This year he took his children to Israel on spring break to learn about the country’s history.

Paid respects to Masada earlier today. Live free or die.

A post shared by Elon Musk (@elonmusk) on Mar 19, 2018 at 4:36pm PDT

To sum up: I have plenty of disagreements with Musk. I think his journalism rating site is a dumb idea (crowdsourcing just leads to fights and ballot stuffing). I disagree with his universe simulation hypothesis, or that intelligent AI is around the corner. I think self-driving will take longer to mature than he assumes, and I think Venus is a better colony destination than Mars. I could make a long list of disagreements. But this level of attempts to distort and smear literally anything about him have been taken to absurd levels as of late.

Likewise with Tesla. Tesla can rightly be called out for setting way too aggressive schedules for itself, then failing to meet them. Early production vehicles are often not as refined as they should be (although Tesla nonetheless generally gets stellar owner satisfaction ratings). The Model 3 delays will slow down their expansion plans, and allow some of the late-to-the-EV-party automakers a chance to catch up a few years from now if Tesla isn’t careful (VW in particular is finally spending big). But in general, I think they’ve plotted a very prudent course — recognizing first the potential for li-ion EVs, changing their image, changing the concept of how long charging should take, and seeking to bring costs down while maintaining profitability through sheer scale. And regardless of whether you like them or not, they’re going to be around long into the forseeable future. Regardless of how desperate the people who shorted the stock in the $250s are to see that not happen, or how much bad reporting they can generate.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 18, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
Hey, I came here first to read comments on Musk's claims of company sabotage.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Jun 18, 2018 - 09:33pm PT
he's a visionary

hmm, no.
a visionary doesn't sell flame throwers.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 19, 2018 - 07:55am PT
I guess tooth and moose are all in.

Good. It takes both sides to make a market.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 19, 2018 - 08:39am PT
Jim: It's [an automobile] a personal conveyance that cost you money.


It might be interesting to know that most trends are moving away from owning automobiles. The younger generation is buying far fewer of them, and they are not in love with the automobile as older generations were. (I remember reading that that senior citizens now buy the majority of new automobiles in the market.) Ride sharing services are growing more than the sales of automobiles, and public transportation is also increased significantly. In addition, the youngest generation do not want to live in the suburbs; they are attracted to live in urban environments.

As for some data about the growth and promise of EVs, you can look at this site from McKinsey. (Easy to read; has lots of graphs.)

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/the-global-electric-vehicle-market-is-amped-up-and-on-the-rise

https://www.mckinsey.com/Industries/Automotive-and-Assembly/Our-Insights/Three-surprising-resource-implications-from-the-rise-of-electric-vehicles?cid=other-eml-alt-mkq-mck-oth-1805&hlkid=fbc25fd738b64967832f1ee0f0161050&hctky=9424624&hdpid=99f9f5bd-67f0-4540-881e-1767acdf56aa

Note what McKinsey says about EV's current market share position. It's very small.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Jun 19, 2018 - 08:39am PT
Bump for an immigrant trying to make a difference. One who maybe made some money along the way. Haven't they talked about immigration reform from both ends of the educationalsocioeconomic spectrum.



#Moosegrationtude



Edit:If Musk has enough at the end to pour some bucket loads back home,I might argue for rain bringer. Not a sociologist, but the potential turmoil caused by "their" AIDS epidemic, generations of institutionalized dehumanization, separation of wealth, etc., could be destabilizing. Anyone ever see him decorate himself with a diamond?


Edit edit: senegoal!
couchmaster

climber
Jun 19, 2018 - 10:01am PT

Just a heads up, the smoke off those batteries is highly toxic. Next time you see a burning Tesla head upwind and get the f*#k away. Way way the f*#k away. If you even inhale small amounts, the hydrofluoric acid can, with a possible delayed effect, affect the nervous system, respiratory tract, lungs, and impair the cardiovascular system. You'll be messed up for sure. That's just to start. Who knows what long term effects will be.

If you feel even slightly impaired or are coughing excessively, have someone drive you to the emergency room ASAP. Nasty business that.



From my view, I hope Musk succeeds and succeeds wildly. Pushing the innovation envelope gets us all down the road to a better future. (usually). I love the guy and his humor, but wouldn't bet long or short on Tesla the company right now. I believe that it's the most overvalued company I've seen in my life. I expect that the stock will crash and crash hard, but I hope the company can continue. Anyone who saw what those guys pulled out with Paypal shouldn't be betting against Musk though.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 19, 2018 - 12:13pm PT
....believe that it's the most overvalued company I've seen in my life.....

Then you're not looking around.... netflix/amazon/google... The bubble is huge this time.. Musk is a zit.

At the very least they do make something and offer some kind of innovation, even if hopelessly improbable as a viable business.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 19, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
In addition, the youngest generation do not want to live in the suburbs; they are attracted to live in urban environments.

I think it is great that urban areas have become nicer places to live. People walk more and drive less. Good for human health and environment health. Urban environments use less energy per capita and have better public transportation potential.

But lets see if those younger generations still like the urban environment when they start having kids and instead of being the drunk out on the sidewalk at 2:00am they are the ones being woken up and annoyed by the young drunks outside.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 19, 2018 - 01:04pm PT

His primary mission is to fight global warming. Here is how.

1. Musk made EVs desirable. After Tesla's success, every car manufacturer is investing big money in EVs. More electric cars means less gasoline burned. Simple

2. Musk's investment in energy storage will bringing down electric battery prices, not to mention the improvements in the technology. (Since during the night electric energy is cheap, it makes sense to store it and use it during the day).

3. Musk's solar tiles are more likely to sell than those ugly solar panels. When connected to the battery (or Tesla car), this technology can make your house energy self sufficient.

4. The HyperLoop (don't confuse it with Boring Company), will be cheaper and more energy efficient than any current mode of transportation, and has the potential to be the fastest, too.

5. Boring Company is trying to solve traffic congestion. (Hope it does, although the project in the current form is not ideal).

1. Starting companies is hard. Creating a new car company and bringing out a sought after model is an accomplishment. But battery technology has improved a lot. It is very easy to develop a lot of torque with electric motors. Having a pure electric sports car and/or hybrids is a no-brainer. Somebody was going to do that. Credit to Musk for pushing things along a bit faster. Putting sattelites into orbit was also a proven technology. Again, credit for starting a company from scratch that does that. I don't believe Musk will live to see humans land on Mars. If that happens, my guess is that it is a vanity project by the Chinese in the same way (and at a similar share of GDP) as the USA moon project in the 60's.

2. Great that he is making a huge investment in batteries. He's not the only ones. The Chinese have similar scale projects.

3. More than one person has commented that solar panels should be the roof instead of being bolted on top of the roof. Hurray to Musk for pushing that along.

4. Hyperloop has nothing to do with fighting global warming. This isn't proven technology and Musk isn't going to bring it to market.

5. Nothing to do with fighting global warming. Although tunnels are a proven technology, I'm not sure that Musk is that serious about this one. And as others have pointed out, subways make more environmental sense than moving single occupancy cars through.

I still hope Tesla makes it. Still have my doubts.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 19, 2018 - 01:45pm PT
Definitely not worshiping Musk. Never worshipped or knew the names of sports figures growing up! But I do like that we can have an option to internal combustion engines to drive and I prefer the option. I think it is a mistake, and wrong, to worship people. here is one guy who is accomplishing what every car company should be doing.

Driving electric cars and makIng the transition over time can happen so that power grids can adapt as well as technology to minimize mining harm. We can’t assume power grids will remain the same balance of power we had last year, it changed for the better overall this year already. Same with battery composition. Same with mineral extraction. Musk may bail/fail but he has succeeded in the goals he set for himself ten years ago. He will have personal scandals like Trump has had, but I like a lot of the salient points made by the article I copied/pasted above.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 26, 2018 - 05:41am PT

I didn’t pay for this feature but I woke up to another over the air update this week. Dedicated to the memory of an 18-yr old who died while joyriding an S. I can also limit the kW available to the motors so that the acceleration is at a quarter power, like my Subaru or TOYOTA. Now owners can use their phones to limit the performance of their cars at any time, or put it in Valet mode or use Chill mode.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 26, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
Definitely not worshiping Musk.

Yea, I don't get that one either. I keep hearing that he is"visionary". And I just don't see it. He is good at starting companies and bringing existing products to market. Be it batteries, electric cars, or launching satellites.

Now maybe he has a bit of Steve Jobs in him. Both the charisma and the ability to take something that either already exists or has already been tried, and create a well-engineered product with a huge markup. More power to him. But I'm not going to bet, or invest, on his chances of success.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 2, 2018 - 07:13am PT
Tesla just made more model 3 BEVs in Q2 2018 than Chevy, VW and Honda sold of all their BEVs in 2017 combined!




Can you imagine if I predicted that in 12 months a car company would begin to sell a new car that outsold all cars in its category from the top three automakers in that category and not only one of their cars but all of their cars combined? So sad. Time they step up and start providing what is in such high demand. The more you drive rlectric the more you hate ICE. I drive a Toyota yesterday and was choking on exhaust fumes in Vancouver. Something i havent experienced for a long time and wish everyone put HEPA air filters in their vehicles like Tesla. I mean, these others make millions of cars a year, why cant they make them as pleasant to be in as this startup company?

And for everyone who says Tesla or Elon is doing it wrong,” just look at his balance sheet”, what would you do different and why? And you cant change the 10-yr plan to fit you, you have to accomplish the 10-yr plans as well.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 2, 2018 - 10:56am PT
Tesla builds giant tent to ramp up Model 3 production; expert calls it 'insanity'

Tesla put together an “entire new general assembly line” in three weeks with spare parts, Chief Executive Elon Musk said. (Saul Loeb / AFP/Getty Images)
Dana Hull, John Lippert and Sarah Gardner
Bloomberg
Elon Musk has six days to make good on his pledge that Tesla Inc. will be pumping out 5,000 Model 3 sedans a week by the end of the month. If he succeeds, it may be thanks to the curious structure outside the company’s factory. It’s a tent the size of two football fields that Musk calls “pretty sweet” and that manufacturing experts deride as, basically, nuts.

I'll give him credit for thinking outside of the building box:



I wonder how many of those Models produced in that tent get recalled some day...
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 2, 2018 - 11:00am PT
what would you do different and why?

Most new companies fail. Musk has done some impressive things but he has clearly hit a rough patch.

What:

If the primary focus was to bring Tesla electric cars to market in mass production numbers, as opposed to Musk's personal ambitions, I think the smart thing to do would be to sell the company to somebody like VW/Porsche.

Why:

To avoid bankruptcy and the company completely failing.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 2, 2018 - 11:34am PT
Your if is wrong. Thats not the ten year plan. Without Reading that first and then giving solutions the response seems silly. Counter-productive.


The goal isnt to do the safest thing or the thing least likely to go bankrupt. That is a great plan for Ford or someone concerned first with stock price and a routine existance. Those types of goals and thinking aren’t entrepreneurial and nothing gets started like that anyway. My sister thinks and operates that way and that is why she is an employee, not an entrepreneur.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 2, 2018 - 11:46am PT
Amazon is a different company but their plan remains. Note the difference.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 2, 2018 - 12:12pm PT
The first Tesla ten year plan did not. Day to day plans did. And this second ten year plan is out. Tactics and ways to actualize the goals will and do change. The higest level ten year plan doesnt with either company. Given that high level ten year plan, what would you do differently? This is a game we would play in business school on companies that we had info on for up until five years previous. We could then test our proposals against the reality if the past five years when we proposed the same game plan that the companies took.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 5, 2018 - 09:33pm PT



The goal isnt to do the safest thing or the thing least likely to go bankrupt. That is a great plan for Ford or someone concerned first with stock price and a routine existance. Those types of goals and thinking aren’t entrepreneurial and nothing gets started like that anyway. My sister thinks and operates that way and that is why she is an employee, not an entrepreneur.

I was asked what I would do differently and why and I answered.

I thought Musk was this visionary out to save the climate by making electric cars sexy. Or is he just another Amazon /Uber intent on world domination?

Sure if you keep betting the company you might double up. And you might not

For every Amazon/Google there are tens of thousands of entrepreneurs that went bankrupt.

It would be shame if Musk's ego sank what might have otherwise succeeded.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 13, 2018 - 11:27am PT
Credit where credit is due:

Congrats Tesla on meeting the goal of 5000 cars/week by the end of 2017, I mean the end of Q1 of 2018, I mean the end of Q2 of 2018.

I guess I'm a little late, but so were they.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 13, 2018 - 11:36am PT
Jim Brennan

Trad climber

Jul 5, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
68.7 million in state tax taken off of the back of any good corporate citizen is what shiny, happy people like.

Dentist, you should be the first to understand the devil in the details having made your living in the space a coffee cup affords.

There are always flees to get rid of, who learned how to talk.


So assuming this is correct, who is to blame? The guy who put the bids out to fifty states or the politicians who came in with a the bids to take tax money from individuals and give it to corporations (If you want to look at it that way)? Of all the billions of government subsidies spent on oil this year, who is to blame? Exxon or Schell who make billions in profit, or the government who gave it to them from your pocket? That money could have gone toward a wall, or have stayed in your pocket! U live in a capitalist republic. Don't blame the players. What would you say about a guy who didn't take the best bid and went with the worst one? Why not complain about the CA politicians who bid even more public money away (but overall didn't have the best bid so it hasn't happened with a GF yet?)
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 13, 2018 - 11:40am PT
Capitalist Republic. Communist Dictatorship. Socialist Democracy. They all have issues. You are complaining about this one, you could have human rights issues like in China etc. That says more about your government to me than your fellow citizens who are just playing by the rules that you as a society have set up for yourselves. If you were a democracy, the popular vote would have won. Instead, the country has elected someone who is actively pushing for more of this sort of thing, building corporations with the help of government. Lowering corporate taxes, trade wars in support of USA, USA! The intent is there, and this will happen to more than just Tesla and 'clean' coal companies. Does it make the owner/owners/shareholders of these corporations little devils, or is the system that you all live in and pay taxes into kinda letting the little folks down?

I left the US when my yearly taxes started to get high and realized that I really am Canadian. I like having a public safety net for those of us in our society who need help, healthcare or home care. While watching stealth bombers fly by my office window each day in Guam and see where the majority of my tax dollars were going, I made the decision to move back to Canada. I don't think that individual, Citizens in your country are to blame for playing the game that is set up in your country. I see the inter fighting as needless and sad. I don't support it from a tax end, but I support Tesla by driving their SUV. So you could say I don't support the government directly, as I like another system better, but I do support the results and products that are put out by the results of how your system used to work. We don't know the results that will come out of the changes that are currently being made, but I'm sure it will turn out well for those who are already doing well!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 15, 2018 - 09:32am PT
Please show me the facts to prove your theory that his presence slowed the production yet still hit the 5000/day goal only after he spent time there.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 15, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
it was essentially three months with a tiny break of like one day that I wasn't there.

Yes, this how you want your CEO of 3 different billion dollar companies to spend his time and energy.

I mean what could possibly go wrong when your CEO is in the factory doing actual production work, making plans to create a boring company and selling this idea to cities, and running over to Asia to try and rescue kids from a cave.

I'm sure the companies run on autopilot just like Tesla's do.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 15, 2018 - 11:01pm PT
Took a tour of Volvo’s Torslanda factory last month. For a place that puts out a car every minute it was amazingly serene. Nobody looked stressed in the least. In fact, because Volvo values its employees’ mental welfare (as well as physical - duh) everybody changes jobs at a rate of every 45-90 minutes so they don’t get bored and they can enjoy someone else’s company! Apparently the 1400 robots don’t enjoy that perq. But they didn’t look too bothered either.

Sorry, no pics, you have to give yer cell phone to the nice Swedish lady (actually she was American! 🙀) before you can get on the tram.

ps
In the interest of journalistic integrity I should point out that I’m pretty sure I saw some members of the Swedish Bikini Team working there, dungarees not withstanding.
couchmaster

climber
Jul 16, 2018 - 01:02pm PT
Hot on the heels on the shocking news that Elon was a significant contributor to the Republican party, the stock drops over 3% allegedly over Musk calling one of the Thai rescuers a Pedophile.


Litigation to follow most likely.





ps, Riley, you gonna buy one of those Zhejiang Geely Holding Group Co. cars? I saw that Uber had ordered "up to" 24,000 self driving versions to be delivered starting next year. 24,000 self-driving cars. Next year. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volvocars-uber/volvo-cars-to-supply-uber-with-up-to-24000-self-driving-cars-idUSKBN1DK1NH

We live in interesting times.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 16, 2018 - 06:02pm PT
"Like I say, a lot of crow being eaten around here" Sandy Munro

[Click to View YouTube Video]
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Jul 16, 2018 - 06:02pm PT
Musk is an ass.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 16, 2018 - 06:11pm PT
622 miles on a single charge on a Model 3 is the new record. I just climbed in Squamish this weekend and slept in my Tesla both nights. Nobody bothered me (unlike in my Outback or Toyota) and I could keep the climate control on all night and it silently kept me cool while filtering out crap with the HEPA/carbon bioweapons defence mode. I never notice it until I drive my truck and can smell every other car on the road. We really need to make the conversion to electric. It is such a better product to use.
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jul 16, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
Elon should just STFU and stick to what he does best, build cool sh#t.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jul 16, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
Seems to be a real fool.
couchmaster

climber
Jul 18, 2018 - 07:10pm PT

Please help Elon, GoFundMe started to put the kids back in the cave so Elon can rescue them.

john hansen

climber
Jul 18, 2018 - 09:44pm PT
Moose I believe you bought in at $ 17 dollars a share,, you should feel pretty good.

Hope you bought a few thousand shares. At that price you can afford to hang around for ever in the hope Musk pull's it off.

Got in at 196 and out at 271. 38 percent over 40 months.

I can live with that.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2018 - 12:26am PT
Something is wrong with the world, I haven’t heard a thing from EM or about Tesla in like days! WTF?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 23, 2018 - 05:54am PT
Whew! I was wortied!

Reuters:
Shares of Tesla Inc fell more than 4 percent in trading before the bell on Monday, after a
report that the electric car maker has turned to some suppliers for a refund of previously made
payments in a bid to turn a profit.
Tesla has asked some suppliers to refund money paid by the electric car maker since 2016,
the Wall Street Journal reported on Sunday citing a memo.


The desperation manifests itself.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 23, 2018 - 11:14pm PT
Reiters:

By Kate Duguid | NEW YORK
The amount investors must pay to insure their debt holdings in Tesla Inc against declining
credit quality rose on Monday to its second-highest price ever, implying the company is at a
greater risk of default following a report that sparked concern that Tesla may need to raise
funds.
Insurance on Tesla's debt, which is sold as a credit default swap contract, increased from
Friday by 13 cents to $5.96 per $100 of Tesla debt. That followed a Wall Street Journal report
on Sunday that Tesla had turned to some suppliers for a refund of previously made payments
in a bid to make a profit, citing a memo sent by a Tesla global supply manager.

A Tesla spokesperson said on Monday that the company had no comment on the credit
default swaps, but said in a statement in response to the WSJ story that Tesla had asked
fewer than 10 suppliers to reduce capital expenditure project spending. Tesla said that any
changes with these suppliers would improve future cash flows but not affect its ability to
achieve profitability in the third quarter.

Company founder and Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk may be obligated to tap debt or
equity markets again this year, according to analysts, though he has said he would do neither.
The market's faith in Musk's ability to raise cash if needed has kept Tesla's implied risk of
default lower than similarly rated junk bonds and has propped up the price of its debt,
according to analysts.

Tesla's junk bond coming due in 2025 fell 1.75 cents to trade as low as 88.875 cents on the
dollar, its biggest drop since Moody's downgraded the company's senior notes to Caa1
following production delays.

It cost $5.96 to insure $100 of Tesla's debt, plus an upfront cost of around 18 percent,
representing a total of 24.1 percent of the face value of the 2025 bond on Monday.
"The CDS is saying that there are a lot of people betting this company is going out of
business," said Thomas Graff, head of fixed income at Brown Advisory.

Tesla has burned cash ramping up production of its Model 3 sedan, which prior to July, had
fallen short of a series of targets.
Profitability has been elusive for Tesla. There is over $11.5 billion of short interest on Tesla's
shares, the largest of such positions in the U.S. market by dollar value, according to financial
analytics firm S3 Partners.

A short position is a bet that a company's shares will fall in price. Investors borrow shares in
the hopes of selling them and then buying back shares at a lower price to repay the loan,
allowing them to pocket the difference.
As a percentage of outstanding shares, Tesla's short interest is 20.4 percent, which places it in
the top 50 most shorted stocks on the Nasdaq.
The implied market probability of a default on Monday rose to 38.9 percent from 38.3 percent
on Friday, according to Thomson Reuters Eikon. The probability of a default was 34.19
percent when the credit-default swap contract, the first and only referencing a Tesla bond,
launched on June 27.

Compared to Monday's swoon in the bond price, the increased default probability seems low.
That is explained, however, by the illiquid state of Tesla's CDS, which have had only one
trader, Edward Koo at JPMorgan, regularly offering quotes on the swap, according to Reuters
trading sources who requested anonymity because the quotes are not public.

Because it has become harder to find third parties who are willing to take on credit risk via
CDS since the financial crisis, market makers sometimes have to absorb that risk themselves.
That raises CDS prices.

But the opportunity offered by Monday's falling bond price saw a market maker added to the
mix, with Goldman Sachs quoting an upfront price of 18 basis points to buy debt protection,
and 16 to sell, according to Reuters trading sources with access to the quotes. JPMorgan's
quote was 23 points for buyers, versus 18 for sellers, up a point for both parties from last
Wednesday's quote.
(Reporting by Kate Duguid; Additional reporting by Vibhuti Sharma; Editing by Leslie Adler)
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 31, 2018 - 04:31am PT
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jul 31, 2018 - 06:26am PT
Tooth,

in the Credit box at the bottom of the illustration, you might consider citing where you got it. I assume you didn’t put the data together. There are a few science types here.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 31, 2018 - 06:52am PT
And why is there a graphic of a Model X on that graph? Kind of calls into question its credibility, huh?
All those other makes actually deliver cars they sell.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Jul 31, 2018 - 07:36am PT
and now he is selling surf boards. anything for a buck, eh.
couchmaster

climber
Jul 31, 2018 - 08:51am PT
Man, haters gonna hate. OK haters, here's something else to hate on. Ever try googling "Tesla model 3 production chart"? You can get @ 20 versions of that chart from multiple sources. It's not hard, try it. http://redgreenandblue.org/2018/06/12/tesla-model-3-sales-blowing-away-plug-evs-us-market/


 anyway-

Event coming up. Invitation only. You can pick up your "Not-a-Flamethrower" at the Boring parking lot.

"Hello,
You are invited to the following event:
Not-a-Flamethrower San Francisco Pick Up

Event to be held at the following time, date, and location: Saturday, August 25, 2018 from 11:00 AM to 5:00 PM (PDT)

A Boring Parking Lot in San Francisco, California

Event registration is by invitation only. Register with your email address to attend this event.

Get fired up! You are cordially invited to our Bay Area not-a-flamethrower pick up. We look forward to seeing you in a boring parking lot in San Francisco where you will be among the first to pick up your not-a-flamethrower! We are about to liven up our own event by toasting some marshmallows and prepping to take on a zombie horde.

RSVP by Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 11:00 AM PST.

Boring Rules

To attend the pick up, not-a-flamethrower customers must bring a valid form of ID that matches the name on the original order. Orders and tickets are non-transferable, friends and family members will not be able to pick up orders on behalf of not-a-flamethrower customers.
Customers will only be allowed to pick up their not-a-flamethrowers during their one hour pick up window. We are trying to solve soul-destroying traffic, but we are just getting started so please arrive on-time.
Each not-a-flamethrower customer will be allowed to bring one guest only (+1). Choose wisely.
Can't make it? Please let us know at flamethrower@boringcompany.com. We've got a long waitlist and a fellow not-a-flamethrower enthusiast will thank you for it!"

Heh, "get fired up".

tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 31, 2018 - 09:30am PT
The science types can calm down. I’m a scientist, or at least my first degree was. And I can handle reading material outside of journals. InsideEVs is where to get the entire delivery list each month.it should get posted tomorrow.

Anyway, just got off the plane and I’m headed to my car which got a free charge in long term parking so I can drive five hours home from vancouver. The mountains in Bolivia were amazing!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 31, 2018 - 11:11am PT
Well balanced article in LA Times today on tomorrow’s earnings report conference call and the questions that should be asked- not on their website yet.

“One owner recently told The Times he’s been making lease payments on his Model X FOR FOUR MONTHS while it’s sat at a body shop waiting for a hood replacement.”

Nice! That tells me Musk has told his peeps “Screw our owners, put every hood from the suppliers onto a new car which we can sell.”

“Given numerous reports of battery failures on Tesla online forums...”

“Musk might also be asked about photos and aerial drone videos posted on Facebook and Twitter that appear to show thousands of Model 3s parked uncovered on huge lots outside Stocton and near the Burbank airport. Tesla’s media relations department said thoseare simply holding areas for cars that are on their way to new owners.”

You mean they can’t even get the cars they build to their owners because their ‘store’ philosophy is so inefficient?

WBraun

climber
Jul 31, 2018 - 11:18am PT
“One owner recently told The Times he’s been making lease payments on his Model X FOR FOUR MONTHS while it’s sat at a body shop waiting for a hood replacement.”

That owner is an idiot.

Drive your car with a damaged hood and then put the new hood on when comes.

To put a hood on your car is piss easy.

Americans are soooo st00pid, spoiled and lazy .....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 31, 2018 - 12:13pm PT
Moosie, I put the ‘C’ in calm. Nuthin’ calms me like watching train wrecks.
Gotta run - just got a call from Indonesia! LOL!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 31, 2018 - 01:04pm PT
You phunny, homes. You do know yer homies comprise the largest ethnic group in Norway?
Norway has significantly cut back on the numbers they’re letting in - they are a small country
and their wealth is not infinite. For the most part they’ve not had a lot of issues with their
recent immigrants, especially groups like the Poles and other E Europeans. Sweden, on the
other hand, has seen a huge increase in crime although the gubmint and its media lackeys
have made every effort to soft pedal it. Sweden is holding national elections in September
and some think the Social Democrats could be shown the door for the first time since the end
of WWII!

Norwegians still love us and the Brits. They still send a Norwegian fir tree to be erected in
Trafalgar Square every Christmas. If you go there do not miss the Hjemmefront Museum in
Oslo. It is the Resistance Museum. We stayed at a remote mountain lodge in the middle of
the country that was on the ‘Blood Road’. The Nazis brought Yugoslav partisan prisoners
there to build this road. One Yugoslav died for every 50 meters of road that was built!
couchmaster

climber
Jul 31, 2018 - 01:29pm PT


Hardly blame them for needing regime change. They took a bunch of hot blooded young guys who live around women who live under tents and turned them lose with a bunch of half naked hot blonde beauties. Then they kept on doing it. If you want to help folks, why not go there and help them. Interesting that Sweden tried to sweep this under the rug by not keeping track of rapes by nationality.


2013 stats, it's worse now.
couchmaster

climber
Jul 31, 2018 - 01:36pm PT


PS, FYI, if you can make it to the Boring parking lot for the Not-A-Flamethrower even I referenced, they will simultaneous be having a marshmallow roast.

Map to a Boring parking lot in Frisco: http://www.adimlardergisi.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/1e84554d-e81b-4ea5-9aff-e4b624910c89.png
john hansen

climber
Aug 1, 2018 - 07:29pm PT
From above.

BREAKING: Tesla reports a record $717.5 million net loss in second quarter as it cranked up production of Model 3 electric car.




And amazingly it went up over 27 points in after hours trading..

https://www.bing.com/search?q=tesla+stock&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 1, 2018 - 09:28pm PT


Somehow they are delivering more Model 3's in the USA than ever. Where is the demand coming from?




Some short-sighted people had nothing but negative predictions about amazon in their first 9 years.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 2, 2018 - 12:25pm PT
Amazon at least had a revenue stream. Which is a lot more than you could say about a lot of dot com bubble companies.

But Amazon also had first mover advantage. Tesla doesn't.

In its growth years Amazon had nothing like the competition that Tesla has.

Toyota and others are already in the low end all electric market.

The German companies are putting huge resources into the upscale all electric market.

It would be like if Walmart had suddenly decided to compete head on against Amazon for online sales back when Amazon was first offering something besides books.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Aug 2, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
Tooth, numbers are just that, numbers.
Kind of like movies that make millions of dollars. Doesn't mean they're very good.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 2, 2018 - 02:50pm PT
Did I claim they were anything else mr condescending? I drive an X. I know the movie is good btw.
couchmaster

climber
Aug 5, 2018 - 05:53am PT
Elon posts up the short vid "Hitler gets the short squeeze: "LOL, that guy is having too much fun. ROTF here.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1026073171638738944?s=19


From http://twitter.com/elonmusk

couchmaster

climber
Aug 7, 2018 - 12:18pm PT


Hates gonna still hate as the stock rockets because Saudi Arabia jumps in as a Tesla investor with around an estimated $ 2 BuhBuhBuhBuhhbillion investment. The famed republican donor Elon Musk tweets he's considering taking the company private at $420 a share, "funding secured". What's he smokin"? Hah, 420...heh 420 a share....heh

http://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/07/tesla-shares-jump-on-report-saudi-arabia-sovereign-wealth-fund-has-2-.html
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 7, 2018 - 01:11pm PT
Where’s the money gonna come from to buy back the shares?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 7, 2018 - 04:15pm PT
He was making war on the short sellers.

Trouble is; if he didn't actually have the funding then he was lying and the SEC has him.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 7, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
Unless it’s coming out of his checking account there’s no way he has that kind of cash so, yes, that is big time manipulation and he should get a room with Bubba in Leavenworth, KS.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 7, 2018 - 07:54pm PT
Yeah. From my point of view, with really nothing but the media to enlighten me, Elon should be in jail! (I hope I don't look like a fool tomorrow when we all find out what he knows)

Wait, we found out today that SA invested billions many weeks ago, but are blind to the fact that that could happen again. The teaser, taster, went well, now someone is ready to go all-in. It's not impossible, improbable, or unprecedented. Why did we have our panties in a bunch again? Any number of companies like Apple have enough cash sitting around to make this happen. Elon doesn't, all his is tied up in his 20% share of Tesla stock. Not sure why your mind would have gone there first.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Aug 7, 2018 - 09:10pm PT
Where’s the money gonna come from to buy back the shares?
Supposedly he would need $62 billion to buy back the stock.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 7, 2018 - 09:27pm PT
He wouldn’t need that much as supposedly some fanbois would accept shares in a private
Tesla. I would think he would need at least 30 Billion unless there are a lot more suckers
out there than I think there are. That kind of money doesn’t grow on trees nor would he get
much, if any, from an attempted bond float. Maybe he thinks he can sweet talk the Saudis
now that they’ve got skin in the game but I doubt it.

The real question now is whether Trump lets the SEC have at him. Sure seems like he’s
got some serious splainin’ to do.
Duke

Social climber
PSP
Aug 7, 2018 - 09:56pm PT
As a Tesla share holder, I along with many other share holders would have 0 interest in selling at $420. Will be happy moving to a private share holder position. No reason long term share holders would be interested in cashing in? Most have been in for a very long time.

Tesla is probably better suited to be private vs. public.

Musk owns 20%, and won't be selling.

If it happens, it will be the largest LBO of all time. It won't be easy as there are several tests that must be passed including a shareholder vote.

I also own the X. Like the stock it has out performed expectations.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
Aug 7, 2018 - 10:51pm PT
There are over 53 electric car/truck startup now in silicon valley and 90% are Chinese based manufacturer so What Tesla accomplished in 10 years, these guys are doing it in 1-2 years. You do the math



tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 8, 2018 - 05:03am PT
Wrong. Nobody has accomplished what Tesla has. Not even ford in 100 years. Nobody has a supercharger network. Long distance driving capability that I would take over my ICE. Multiple models which are good to drive etc. Tesla has a complete and worthwhile product. Not a neiche one off product.




You are saying that Karma and others who have one working prototype for sale have what Tesla has.



I'm saying that Tesla has a compelling and viable mass-produced produce in three models that has the ability to have replaced my gas car with ease and which which I have put on 20,000km in the past 4 months when I could have chosen to take my ICE up here in northern BC. Because it is better to drive, own and operate and that those other companies offer the same.

Wrong.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 8, 2018 - 06:29am PT
As a Tesla share holder, I along with many other share holders would have 0 interest in selling at $420. Will be happy moving to a private share holder position. No reason long term share holders would be interested in cashing in? Most have been in for a very long time.

Doesn't work like that. If you're out, you're out.

If you get all intransigent about selling, you'll end up with a motion to partition and you're on the outside looking in.


BJ, it looks like you don't know what you are talking about at all. He isn't out. Current shareholders are not out. Read Elon's tweet before and after the one that says $420 and funding is secured. SMH. Really? How ignorant can your comments be? Just because you haven't thought it through doesn't mean the CEO and board haven't.






@elonmusk
Def no forced sales. Hope all shareholders remain. Will be way smoother & less disruptive as a private company. Ends negative propaganda from shorts.



@elonmusk
Replying to @heydave7
Absolutely. Am super appreciative of Tesla shareholders. Will ensure their prosperity in any scenario.



@elonmusk
Shareholders could either to sell at 420 or hold shares & go private


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 8, 2018 - 06:51am PT
Did your ignorance embarrass you? If only you had read more than once sentence.... you wouldn't have been so wrong and had to resort to name calling reminiscent of pre-school. Good job BJ!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 8, 2018 - 06:56am PT
You'd better hope the CEO got it all backwards with his tweetS or you'll look like an even bigger fool.

If it hadn’t been for his tweets you would know zero about this. So why are you latching onto part of one tweet and twisting it and then implying that the rest is a lie? Either take it all at face value or don’t. Creating fantasies out of part of a tweet makes you look silly. I have one fewer posts on this thread than you BJ.
couchmaster

climber
Aug 8, 2018 - 11:04am PT
Ill take t"tings that don't matter worth a cuk for $100 Alex.'
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Aug 8, 2018 - 12:05pm PT
I am buying another house with my earnings on Tesla this year.

Haters gonna hate.

Maybe it will implode, maybe knott, but I am getting mine.

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 8, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
Not all doubters are haters. I actually hope Tesla succeeds but I am in the camp that thinks they have less than 50-50 chance of succeeding as an independent car company.

Musk is a polarizing figure. The media hype and fan worship is annoying but whatever.

Musk is also a bit thin skinned. I could totally see him making an impulsive tweet about taking the company private in order to punish short-sellers. If that is the situation, I hope the SEC takes appropriate action.

And I would be a little reluctant to buy a Tesla. If the company goes completely under, future maintenance/battery replacement and resale value could all be an issue.

Although I think Tesla being sold is more likely than liquidation, but with Musk's ego, you never know how it might shake out.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 8, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
I am buying another house with my earnings on Tesla this year.

Haters gonna hate.

Maybe it will implode, maybe knott, but I am getting mine.

I suppose that's a bit like the Trump economy in general. Hard to say how it will play out, but so far at least, a lot of us are relishing the ca-ching! while it lasts.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Aug 8, 2018 - 05:55pm PT
Effie A DMT...

Ride that train. I worked for tesla doing all their food in house when they began, before the sedan, before the subsidy.

I watched the first sedans unveiling.

Talked to the engineers, and grease monkeys.

I have been “in” for over a decade.

South Bay style.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 8, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
The quality of the Mod S isn’t in question. The Tucker was also a great car.
The quality of the company is much more than just the car.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 8, 2018 - 09:28pm PT
Reuters:

He has not provided details or evidence of the funding by Twitter or in a following blog posted on the Tesla web site, and several securities attorneys told Reuters Musk could face investor lawsuits if it was proven he did not have secure financing at the time of his tweet.
"The words 'financing secured' are the danger point – that’s a statement of fact and could set him up to be accused of a material misstatement if it's proven false," said Erik Gordon, an assistant professor at University of Michigan’s Ross School of Business with a background in law.
Using Twitter to announce materially important information is not common, but the SEC allows companies to use social media to announce key information in compliance with its fair disclosure rules if investors are alerted about which outlets will be used.
Musk is a prolific tweeter and Tesla alerted investors in a 2013 SEC filing that they should follow Musk's Twitter feed for "additional information" about the company.
There is no reference to Musk's Twitter account on the company's investor relations page under "investor communication," although Tesla's Twitter feed is included.
Some Wall Street analysts were skeptical of Musk's ability to gather the huge financial backing to complete such a deal, given that Tesla loses money, has $10.9 billion of debt and its bonds are rated junk by credit ratings agencies.
"Who gives $30 to $50 billion to buy back the shares?" asked NordLB analyst Frank Schwope. "And if you stay as a shareholder you get less information than before and you depend more and more on Elon Musk."

If you’re long Tesla you’re either an idiot, terminally greedy, or both.
The shorts are sharpening their knives.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
Aug 8, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
tooth

Look at Neo

https://www.nio.io/

This is one of the 53 companies I was talking about. my guess is that over 50% of their engineers came from tesla.


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 9, 2018 - 11:45am PT
I don’t get it. You post skepticism and hearsay based on what the CEO introduced and you think there is a reason for me to respond? The SEC isn’t investigating anything, the shorts hired lawyers to ask the SEC to do so, and the SEC has responded by simply asking for a report to back up the word Secured that he used. Remember that in 2013 the SEC expressly stated that Elon could use Twitter as a mouthpiece.


So now you expect a response every time another guy posts another guys thought on the matter?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 9, 2018 - 12:40pm PT
tooth, I don't think you're right, according to reports, the SEC is investigating Tesla/Musk.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/sec-has-made-inquiries-to-tesla-over-elon-musks-taking-private-tweet-1533757570

They could be in a lot of trouble as his "announcement" significantly moved the stock price, just as it was clearly intended to do. (I'm assuming his statement was not true, as most people are now.)
I don't have strong opinions about Musk one way or the other except it's pretty clear he's been acting unbalanced, and that can have consequences when your a Twitter user / head of a public company.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 9, 2018 - 12:50pm PT
No. Have not opened an investigation. They have a preliminary inquiry that they are doing that won’t necessarily lead to anything more formal. According to Judith Burns the SEC spokeswoman.

The only way this could lead to an investigation is if it was materially false. By seeing as the Board has been discussing it for a week already, it doesn’t appear as if Musk shot of a random thought spur of the moment.

Of course everyone wants to know where the money is coming from and wish they had known about SA months ago, but if I were Apple, for example, asking to buy in , i would want my identity kept quiet until after the shareholder vote.




Notice the difference between news that reports on what someone’s emotional response to this is (like the links above that quote brokers et. al. ) and the bare facts about what has happened. Eg, Elon tweeting news on the company he is CEO of, on Twitter, which the SEC expressly states is fine to do in their resolution five years ago. Then the fact that Tesla both out out a blog post and reported what their Board has been doing about it. That’s all the facts. All the rest is speculation and hype. What do you gravitate to?
couchmaster

climber
Aug 9, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
The stock is overvalued as much as any stock in history it seems, I can recognize that for many of us we want the technology and the company to have wild success. They are differing things. If you want to drink the stock koolaid you will lose money, it is a matter of time when you will lose it, so drink in moderation. Good luck, and I too hope the company has great success.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 9, 2018 - 08:14pm PT
I don’t own stock. Just an x. I agree that technically the stock is overvalued. But the driving/ownership experience of their product is undervalued.

edit:





Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA

Aug 11, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The number of Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) shares sold short has rebounded and are now higher than before CEO Elon Musk proposed on Tuesday taking the electric car maker private, according to data from financial technology and analytics firm S3 Partners.

As of Thursday, 34.75 million Tesla shares were sold short, up from 34.67 million shares on Monday, S3 data showed. Tesla is the most shorted U.S. stock.

Short-sellers aim to profit by selling borrowed shares, hoping to buy them back later at a lower price.

Short-sellers racked up paper losses of $1.3 billion on Tuesday after Tesla shares rallied 11 percent. Since then, the shares have given up all the gains and short-sellers have recouped about a $1 billion, the data showed.

The share fall has been fueled by investor skepticism over the deal’s prospects and media reports that U.S. regulators are asking Tesla why Musk announced his plans on Twitter and whether his statement was truthful.

Tesla and the Securities and Exchange Commision declined comment on Thursday.

Emboldened, shorts have pushed Tesla short interest percentage to 27.3 percent of the float on Thursday, up from 27.2 percent on Monday, S3 data showed.

“This hasn’t scared the large players in the market at all,” said Ihor Dusaniwsky, head of research at S3 in New York.

Musk has come under pressure from hedge funds betting that Tesla’s stock will drop given its production issues and negative cash flow, and Tesla is the most shorted U.S. stock. He reasons that taking Tesla private would relieve that pressure.

“His whole focus on shorts is a misallocation of his time and resources,” said investor Christopher Irons, founder of independent investigative research website quoththeravenresearch.com.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

That boy ain’t as smart as he thinks he is.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 11, 2018 - 02:37pm PT
https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/11/tesla-hires-volvo-designer-ian-kettle/
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 11, 2018 - 02:40pm PT
The shareholder lawsuit has been filed. What took so long?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 11, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The number of Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) shares sold short has rebounded and are now higher than before CEO Elon Musk proposed on Tuesday taking the electric car maker private, according to data from financial technology and analytics firm S3 Partners.

As of Thursday, 34.75 million Tesla shares were sold short, up from 34.67 million shares on Monday, S3 data showed. Tesla is the most shorted U.S. stock.

Short-sellers aim to profit by selling borrowed shares, hoping to buy them back later at a lower price.

Short-sellers racked up paper losses of $1.3 billion on Tuesday after Tesla shares rallied 11 percent. Since then, the shares have given up all the gains and short-sellers have recouped about a $1 billion, the data showed.

The share fall has been fueled by investor skepticism over the deal’s prospects and media reports that U.S. regulators are asking Tesla why Musk announced his plans on Twitter and whether his statement was truthful.

Tesla and the Securities and Exchange Commision declined comment on Thursday.

Emboldened, shorts have pushed Tesla short interest percentage to 27.3 percent of the float on Thursday, up from 27.2 percent on Monday, S3 data showed.

“This hasn’t scared the large players in the market at all,” said Ihor Dusaniwsky, head of research at S3 in New York.

Musk has come under pressure from hedge funds betting that Tesla’s stock will drop given its production issues and negative cash flow, and Tesla is the most shorted U.S. stock. He reasons that taking Tesla private would relieve that pressure.

“His whole focus on shorts is a misallocation of his time and resources,” said investor Christopher Irons, founder of independent investigative research website quoththeravenresearch.com.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

That boy ain’t as smart as he thinks he is.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 11, 2018 - 03:25pm PT
Martha Stewart should explain to Musk what insider trading is when you are in prison,..
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 11, 2018 - 10:13pm PT


https://v.qq.com/x/page/j0754tsjcjd.html

Chinese saying they are putting the GF3 into production as fast as possible.

The China 🇨🇳 Shanghai gov also declared that Tesla's 500,000 pure electric vehicles annual production are the largest foreign investment in Shanghai's history. Tesla is also the first 100% sole proprietorship of the foreign-invested company.

On the other hand, several China's largest banks are actively negotiating with the Shanghai gov to provide partial financing support for Tesla's factory in Shanghai. At the same time, Tesla began to publish Shanghai factory recruitment information on major recruitment websites.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 12, 2018 - 11:46am PT
He reasons that taking Tesla private would relieve that pressure.

“His whole focus on shorts is a misallocation of his time and resources,”

Smells like obstruction to me.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 13, 2018 - 06:16am PT
Sorry to take the wind out of a lot of conspiracy theorists/pessimists' sails...

“The Saudi Kingdom’s Public Investment Fund is working to be part of any investor pool that emerges to take Tesla private, people with knowledge of the fund’s plans told Bloomberg News on Sunday. The fund, which recently built a stake just shy of 5 percent, is exploring how it can be involved, the people said on condition of anonymity.”
Bloomberg
from here....

https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-taking-tesla-private

Update on Taking Tesla Private
Elon Musk August 13, 2018
As I announced last Tuesday, I’m considering taking Tesla private because I believe it could be good for our shareholders, enable Tesla to operate at its best, and advance our mission of accelerating the transition to sustainable energy. As I continue to consider this, I want to answer some of the questions that have been asked since last Tuesday.

What has happened so far?
On August 2nd, I notified the Tesla board that, in my personal capacity, I wanted to take Tesla private at $420 per share. This was a 20% premium over the ~$350 then current share price (which already reflected a ~16% increase in the price since just prior to announcing Q2 earnings on August 1st). My proposal was based on using a structure where any existing shareholder who wished to remain as a shareholder in a private Tesla could do so, with the $420 per share buyout used only for shareholders that preferred that option.

After an initial meeting of the board’s outside directors to discuss my proposal (I did not participate, nor did Kimbal), a full board meeting was held. During that meeting, I told the board about the funding discussions that had taken place (more on that below) and I explained why this could be in Tesla’s long-term interest.

At the end of that meeting, it was agreed that as a next step, I would reach out to some of Tesla’s largest shareholders. Our largest investors have been extremely supportive of Tesla over the years, and understanding whether they had the ability and desire to remain as shareholders in a private Tesla is of critical importance to me. They are the ones who believed in Tesla when no one else did and they are the ones who most believe in our future. I told the board that I would report back after I had these discussions.

Why did I make a public announcement?
The only way I could have meaningful discussions with our largest shareholders was to be completely forthcoming with them about my desire to take the company private. However, it wouldn’t be right to share information about going private with just our largest investors without sharing the same information with all investors at the same time. As a result, it was clear to me that the right thing to do was announce my intentions publicly. To be clear, when I made the public announcement, just as with this blog post and all other discussions I have had on this topic, I am speaking for myself as a potential bidder for Tesla.

Why did I say “funding secured”?
Going back almost two years, the Saudi Arabian sovereign wealth fund has approached me multiple times about taking Tesla private. They first met with me at the beginning of 2017 to express this interest because of the important need to diversify away from oil. They then held several additional meetings with me over the next year to reiterate this interest and to try to move forward with a going private transaction. Obviously, the Saudi sovereign fund has more than enough capital needed to execute on such a transaction.

Recently, after the Saudi fund bought almost 5% of Tesla stock through the public markets, they reached out to ask for another meeting. That meeting took place on July 31st. During the meeting, the Managing Director of the fund expressed regret that I had not moved forward previously on a going private transaction with them, and he strongly expressed his support for funding a going private transaction for Tesla at this time. I understood from him that no other decision makers were needed and that they were eager to proceed.

I left the July 31st meeting with no question that a deal with the Saudi sovereign fund could be closed, and that it was just a matter of getting the process moving. This is why I referred to “funding secured” in the August 7th announcement.

Following the August 7th announcement, I have continued to communicate with the Managing Director of the Saudi fund. He has expressed support for proceeding subject to financial and other due diligence and their internal review process for obtaining approvals. He has also asked for additional details on how the company would be taken private, including any required percentages and any regulatory requirements.

Another critical point to emphasize is that before anyone is asked to decide on going private, full details of the plan will be provided, including the proposed nature and source of the funding to be used. However, it would be premature to do so now. I continue to have discussions with the Saudi fund, and I also am having discussions with a number of other investors, which is something that I always planned to do since I would like for Tesla to continue to have a broad investor base. It is appropriate to complete those discussions before presenting a detailed proposal to an independent board committee.

It is also worth clarifying that most of the capital required for going private would be funded by equity rather than debt, meaning that this would not be like a standard leveraged buyout structure commonly used when companies are taken private. I do not think it would be wise to burden Tesla with significantly increased debt.

Therefore, reports that more than $70B would be needed to take Tesla private dramatically overstate the actual capital raise needed. The $420 buyout price would only be used for Tesla shareholders who do not remain with our company if it is private. My best estimate right now is that approximately two-thirds of shares owned by all current investors would roll over into a private Tesla.

What are the next steps?
As mentioned earlier, I made the announcement last Tuesday because I felt it was the right and fair thing to do so that all investors had the same information at the same time. I will now continue to talk with investors, and I have engaged advisors to investigate a range of potential structures and options. Among other things, this will allow me to obtain a more precise understanding of how many of Tesla’s existing public shareholders would remain shareholders if we became private.

If and when a final proposal is presented, an appropriate evaluation process will be undertaken by a special committee of Tesla’s board, which I understand is already in the process of being set up, together with the legal counsel it has selected. If the board process results in an approved plan, any required regulatory approvals will need to be obtained and the plan will be presented to Tesla shareholders for a vote.











What is the sound that Saudi crickets make?

Whatever $2.7B landing on the table sounds like.


I'll just leave this here...




Replying to Reily -
Yeah. From my point of view, with really nothing but the media to enlighten me, Elon should be in jail! (I hope I don't look like a fool tomorrow when we all find out what he knows)

Wait, we found out today that SA invested billions many weeks ago, but are blind to the fact that that could happen again. The teaser, taster, went well, now someone is ready to go all-in. It's not impossible, improbable, or unprecedented. Why did we have our panties in a bunch again? Any number of companies like Apple have enough cash sitting around to make this happen. Elon doesn't, all his is tied up in his 20% share of Tesla stock. Not sure why your mind would have gone there first.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 13, 2018 - 09:07am PT
OK



crazy like a fox.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 13, 2018 - 09:19am PT
I take it with a grain of salt because Musk has to cover his ass now that the SEC is investigating him.

But if the Saudis are willing to pony up big bucks both to take the company private and to provide funding at a lower interest rate, it would certainly brighten Tesla prospects.

If that happens, will be interesting to see if they would put up that much money while leaving Musk a free to do as he pleases.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 13, 2018 - 09:23am PT
What is the sound that Saudi crickets make?
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 13, 2018 - 09:29am PT
Going private will make those things “inside the kimono” unavailable to the public scrutiny. It’s a way from having to respond to short-term demands from a wider base of shareholders (who are invariably far more concerned with short-term performance).
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 13, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
I think it is to get away from the nattering nabobs of negativity otherwise known as short sellers.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 13, 2018 - 01:59pm PT
What is the sound that Saudi crickets make?
The sound of one wing chirping.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 14, 2018 - 08:49am PT
So he had a twitchy twitter finger but we now have the Elon-gated explanation.

SEC will have a tough time holding his feet to the fire.

When someone is described as; visionary, ethereal, eccentric, that it is actually code for mental instability.



Wait,.. who are we talking about again?
;)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 14, 2018 - 09:02am PT
Martha Stewart was visionary, ethereal, and even a little eccentric in the eyes of her fans yet the SEC had no qualms making an example of her. I also have no doubt she was a lot more pleasant to hang out with. She apparently was very generous with her time to some troubled women.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 14, 2018 - 09:20am PT
Martha Stewart did more than say something she knew would piss off people she didn't like.

She profited from inside info.


But I'm sure she redeemed herself making potholders in Danbury.
couchmaster

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:01pm PT
Martha Stewart did not go to jail for insider trading.



10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Aug 14, 2018 - 09:23pm PT
I think tooth is worried about the cavity that is tesla.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 06:44am PT
$320 is looking more likely than $420.
The shorts are looking smarter.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 15, 2018 - 08:06am PT
Toker Villain: When someone is described as; visionary, ethereal, eccentric, that it is actually code for mental instability.

Perhaps. Genius is often “way out there.” Why might that be? Typical understanding of reality is invariably traditional. The only way to create / innovate new things (views, products, methods) is to get off the beaten track. Most often that looks imprudent, a little crazy.

I’m not so sure it’s about mental instability. The effect of genius often means instability, but that refers to social and economic systems. Joseph Schumpeter (an Austrian economist in the 1880s) called it, “creative destruction.” Almost everyone in Silicon Valley wants to create new market spaces around their ideas (which could put them in the catbird’s seat).

Check out wiki on Schumpeter; it’s a good write-up and may inform you of some of the remarkable understanding he seemed to have had. Very prescient.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 10:16am PT
The SEC, despite Tooth’s insider info, has already issued subpoenas.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 15, 2018 - 10:28am PT
I'm buying popcorn.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 15, 2018 - 12:17pm PT
The only way to create / innovate new things (views, products, methods) is to get off the beaten track.

Ok. I keep hearing this about Musk. And I keep asking, on this forum and another one that I browse, what has Musk done (since perhaps Paypal) that is innovative. And I never get an answer besides some hand waving visionary thing.

He wasn't the first private space company. He wasn't the first all-electric car. He wasn't the first to use robots in manufacturing.

As far as I know, he was the first to bring an all-electric, sports car to market. Credit for that. Although given the amount of torque that electric motors can generate, that strikes me as fairly obvious.

And then he has a bunch of adolescent fantasies (that aren't original) about Martian colonies and hyper loops.

As far as I can tell, visionary is another name for a charismatic salesman that knows how to create a fanatical following with a chic brand.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 15, 2018 - 12:32pm PT
As far as I know, he was the first to bring an all-electric, sports car to market.

Not even close. My friends Allan Cocconi and Dave Sivertsen of AC Propulsion built their tzero in 1997. It was primarily a test bed for the technology they sold to many of the big companies. While it only did 0-60 in 4 seconds you could also do a 95% charge in only an hour.

here’s a link to just a few of their patents:
https://patents.justia.com/assignee/ac-propulsion-inc
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 16, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
Reuters:

Whistleblower accuses Tesla of spying on employees at Gigafactory: attorney

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - An employee fired from Tesla Inc's (TSLA.O) Nevada battery factory filed a whistleblower complaint with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, accusing the company of spying on employees and failing to act after learning that a Mexican cartel may be dealing drugs inside the plant, his attorney said on Thursday.

A former member of Tesla’s internal investigations team, Karl Hansen, filed a tips, complaints and referrals form to the SEC about the Gigafactory on Aug. 9, Hansen’s attorney Stuart Meissner said in a news release. Whistleblowers can receive 10 percent to 30 percent of penalties the SEC collects.

Tesla said it took the allegations that Hansen brought to the electric car maker seriously and investigated.

“Some of his claims are outright false. Others could not be corroborated,” Tesla said in the statement.

The SEC declined comment.

The complaint sent to the SEC comes amid intense focus on the company and Chief Executive Elon Musk, whose tweets about taking the company private last week set off a scramble to determine whether he violated securities law in stating that funding for the deal was “secured.”

Hansen alleged that Tesla, at the direction of Musk, installed surveillance equipment at the Gigafactory outside Reno, Nevada to eavesdrop on the personal cellphones of employees while at work, according to Meissner.

Hansen also claims that Tesla did not disclose to investors that thieves stole $37 million in copper and other raw materials during the first half of 2018, according to his attorney.

Hansen alleges Tesla failed to disclose that it received written notice from the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration about a Tesla employee possibly engaged in selling cocaine and crystal methamphetamine from the Nevada factory on behalf of a Mexican drug cartel, according to Meissner who did not release the whistleblower filing he said his client made to the SEC.

Reuters could not reach Hansen for comment.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Hope y’all got a gud store of popcorn!

tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 16, 2018 - 10:18pm PT
“Mr. Hansen’s allegations were taken very seriously when he brought them forward. Some of his claims are outright false. Others could not be corroborated, so we suggested additional investigative steps to try and validate the information he had received second-hand from a single anonymous source. Because we wanted to be sure we got this right, we made numerous attempts to engage further with Mr. Hansen to understand more about what he was claiming and the work that he did in reaching his conclusions. He rejected each of those attempts, and to date has refused to speak with the company further. It seems strange that Mr. Hansen would claim that he is concerned about something happening within the company, but then refuse to engage with the company to discuss the information that he believes he has.”

From Tesla
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 17, 2018 - 06:16am PT
reutets:

Tesla's Model 3 margins could be dented by costly powertrain: UBS

(Reuters) - Electric carmaker Tesla Inc's (TSLA.O) premium Model 3 sedan will not produce better profit margins than a conventional BMW (BMWG.DE) and the company could actually lose $6,000 on every base model due to higher costs for the powertrain, according to an analyst at UBS.

Tesla’s shares were down about 3 percent at $325 in premarket trade on Friday.

The company is banking on its Model 3 to ensure future profitability. The base model is $35,000, but car buyers can upgrade to a $49,000 version, which has a longer range battery and high end trim.

UBS said the powertrain - a component crucial to Model 3's architecture, cost $950 higher than a previous forecast, but still better compared to General Motors Co's (GM.N) Chevy Bolt.

“While Tesla’s powertrain was better than peers in terms of cost per kWh and performance, their lead was not as large as we would have expected,” analyst Colin Langan said in a research note titled “Is Tesla Revolutionary or Evolutionary?”

Langan added that the cell cost at $148/kWh is well above Tesla’s guidance of below $100/kWh ending 2018.

He said the powertrain modules are in-house designed and built by Tesla, which is enabling it to move earlier with new technologies.

The Model 3 UBS Evidence Lab disassembled was $49,000, which included the 75 kWh battery and the high end trim. The model is expected to have a factory variable margin of about 29 percent and a gross margin of about 18 percent.

According to the note, Tesla’s gross margin comes in at 18 percent for a high-end Model 3, while the BMW 330i records 21 percent. The powertrain for Tesla’s Model 3 costs $17,827, more than double BMW spends on the component.

“With these economics, we expect the $35k base Model 3 to lose about $6k/car,” Langan said.

On Thursday, Evercore analysts said Tesla is on its way to make 8,000 Model 3 cars per week even as it burns more cash, following their visit to the electric carmaker’s California facility.

Musk, who shocked markets last week after tweeting a proposal to take the company private, gave a wide-ranging and emotional interview to the New York Times on Thursday on the company’s troubles and the personal burdens he has suffered running the company.

Reporting by Nivedita Balu in Bengaluru; Editing by Bernard Orr

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

So now he’s pulled out the Sympathy Card?
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Aug 17, 2018 - 08:05am PT
Musk, who shocked markets last week after tweeting a proposal to take the company private, gave a wide-ranging and emotional interview to the New York Times on Thursday on the company’s troubles and the personal burdens he has suffered running the company.

lol
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 17, 2018 - 08:20am PT
TSLA DOWN 7.8% at $309

Dem short doods are lookin’ pretty happy, and prescient.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 17, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
How’s that popcorn holding out?
TSLA down 9.35% to $304!
Put a smiley face on that, Tooth!
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 17, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
what has Musk done that is innovative?


Yea, if only NASA had ever had the vision to make a reusable rocket!


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 17, 2018 - 03:09pm PT
Not to get anyone riled up but if you post a stock price and tauntingly call me out like a preschooler in the schoolyard , man up and quote what I said about it upthread so everyone can laugh at your foolishness.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 17, 2018 - 03:38pm PT
man up and quote what I said about it upthread.

If I had seen anything relevant or meaningful I would surely do so,
but at this point whatever you said will look better in the post mortem.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 17, 2018 - 03:42pm PT
Quote what I said about stock price - unless it doesn’t help in painting the picture you want to of me, or of picking a fight...
couchmaster

climber
Aug 17, 2018 - 06:04pm PT
We should stop with he anger, accusations and finger pointing. It is what it is.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 17, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
I’m happy to have a civil discussion but I’m not a mind reader. If you have a point to make
then make it, like an adult, unless yer just channeling yer hero.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 17, 2018 - 06:19pm PT
Oh please. You quote a stock price and ask me to comment on it. I already had. You were just being argumentative for the sake of it instead of following a cohesive conversation/thread. Since you are unable (or more likely, unwilling for the reasons I stated) to do so I said that I thought stock price was overvalued and that I owned none of it.



You argued that you need to be a mind reader to quote what I said about stock price. After what you just posted. 🤦‍♂️
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 17, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
The shuttle? You forget how the shuttle got to orbit? Are you a maroon?

NASA developed a partially re-usable rocket.

Guess what? Space X developed a partially re-usable rocket. Space X is not re-using all of the pieces, only the first stage.

And I'm not comparing NASA's cost effectiveness against Space X. Musk has a good engineering team (and an absolutely out of this world marketing team).

Landing and re-using part of a rocket is nothing new.

It is an incremental/evolutionary change.

Not a visionary/revolutionary change.

The Space Shuttle was far more revolutionary than the Falcon 9.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 18, 2018 - 04:49am PT
NASA developed a partially re-usable rocket.

Guess what? Space X developed a partially re-usable rocket.

Nasa developed a re-usable payload (Shuttle).

Guess what? Space X developed a re-usable rocket (Falcon). And continues to use a reusable payload (Dragon)


There, fixed that for you.



Also, there are two other parts sent up. Fairings and second stage, both of which have plans for recovery/reuse (Mr. Steven, etc)

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 18, 2018 - 10:10am PT

Nasa developed a re-usable payload (Shuttle).

Guess what? Space X developed a re-usable rocket (Falcon). And continues to use a reusable payload (Dragon)


There, fixed that for you.

Sure, the solid rocket boosters on the sides of the shuttle provided the majority of the lift in the first minutes of flight.

But you do realize, don't you, that all the fuel in that giant external gas tank attached to the shuttle was burned by the space shuttle's 3 rockets on the way to orbit?


Also, there are two other parts sent up. Fairings and second stage, both of which have plans for recovery/reuse

Well, great. I'm glad they are pushing things along to hopefully reduce launch costs.

Again, I'm not arguing against his company's engineering skills.

I'm just in a losing battle pushing back on claims of visionary revolution.

NASA developed the technology to get a rocket vehicle in space and bring it back to the ground in a manner that it could then be used again.

I just don't see the visionary leap of faith required before one can start asking is it cost effective to bring other parts of the rocket back to the ground and re-use them. Kudos to him for having the engineering skills to be the first to bring back and reuse a first stage rocket.

It seems like an excellent example of incremental evolution.



Cheers
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 18, 2018 - 10:25am PT
So show me a controlled landing of a booster.

Yes, he is first to get a first stage rocket back to earth.

But as was already pointed out, NASA did a controlled vertically landing on the moon. Lower gravity and no atmosphere, sure. It was also almost 50 years ago.

The Mars skycrane was a similar engineering challenge to a vertical landing of booster.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 18, 2018 - 10:53am PT
The moon landings were faked. Just ask Werner.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 20, 2018 - 10:13am PT
TSLA below $300 - Elon’s gonna have a stroke!
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
Aug 20, 2018 - 10:53pm PT
SEC is looking at Elon now
couchmaster

climber
Aug 23, 2018 - 08:57pm PT

Cutting edge Electric supercar Vehicle from Kalashnikov to knock Elons socks off. http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/move-over-elon-musks-tesla-kalashnikov-unveils-electric-supercar-1905222



NO! Really!


Side note: all German car mfg are bringing EV's to market, and a slew of other mfg are as well, like Jag.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 24, 2018 - 10:24am PT
Far more importantly Kalashnikov is developing a line of clothes.

In the U.S. we scrap about 12 - 15 million cars a year - WTF are we going to do with millions of large heavy highly toxic dead batteries?

A real man wears Kalashnikov undies.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 24, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
You really don’t know what happens to car batteries after the car is trashed? This isn’t news folks. ASSuming it goes in the landfill or whatever is just like those who add up the energy spent in gasoline per year for transport and then directly transfer that to electric energy they ASSume must be needed to transport electric vehicles. FYI, they are 80% + more efficient, no heat or noise. So they use 1/16th the energy. So you don’t have to make as much electrical energy as is used burning gasoline. That’s not counting the extraction, refining or transport costs of gas.

On the other hand, used battery packs are used for energy grid storage among other things with lower demand uses. Or the modules can be reused. Or the cells. Or they can be recycled. Too much value to throw them out like rusty motors.

Plus, longevity of electric cars is surpassing ice. Check out the vehicle logs of Tesloop to see what happens at 4-500,000 mi plus.


FYI, not all americans are so ignorant about this subject and I’m surprised at climbers lately. Usually the ones I hang out with in the mountains are fairly well educated and care about our environment. I feel as if Trump himself keeps tweeting up here from some of these comments!😂
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 24, 2018 - 08:29pm PT
Nothing Musk has done that I couldn’t have done with a new coal mine and centralized power for the country - Trump



Just because he is your current leader doesn’t mean you have to imitate his bad qualities. He won’t give you a medal if that’s what you are after.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 24, 2018 - 10:08pm PT
Not as easy as you think.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 25, 2018 - 05:46am PT
Not easy but already doing it and making it into useful non polluting product. What about nuclear waste. Doing anything with that? What about coal and natural gas and fuel emissions. Doing anything useful and clean with that? NO. All the current byproducts are harming the environment and you are against the one that actually works because it’s hard? What a lazy outlook.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 25, 2018 - 05:49am PT
Staying Public
Elon Musk August 24, 2018
Earlier this month, I announced that I was considering taking Tesla private. As part of the process, it was important to understand whether our current investors believed this would be a good strategic move and whether they would want to participate in a private Tesla.

Our investors are extremely important to me. Almost all have stuck with us from the time we went public in 2010 when we had no cars in production and only a vision of what we wanted to be. They believe strongly in our mission to advance sustainable energy and care deeply about our success.

I worked with Silver Lake, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, who have world-class expertise in these matters, to consider the many factors that would come into play in taking Tesla private, and to process all the incoming interest that we received from investors to fund a go-private transaction. I also spent considerable time listening to current shareholders, large and small, to understand what they think would be in the best long-term interests of Tesla.

Based on all the discussions that have taken place over the last couple of weeks and a thorough consideration of what is best for the company, a few things are clear to me:

Given the feedback I’ve received, it’s apparent that most of Tesla’s existing shareholders believe we are better off as a public company. Additionally, a number of institutional shareholders have explained that they have internal compliance issues that limit how much they can invest in a private company. There is also no proven path for most retail investors to own shares if we were private. Although the majority of shareholders I spoke to said they would remain with Tesla if we went private, the sentiment, in a nutshell, was “please don’t do this.”
I knew the process of going private would be challenging, but it’s clear that it would be even more time-consuming and distracting than initially anticipated. This is a problem because we absolutely must stay focused on ramping Model 3 and becoming profitable. We will not achieve our mission of advancing sustainable energy unless we are also financially sustainable.
That said, my belief that there is more than enough funding to take Tesla private was reinforced during this process.
After considering all of these factors, I met with Tesla’s Board of Directors yesterday and let them know that I believe the better path is for Tesla to remain public. The Board indicated that they agree.

Moving forward, we will continue to focus on what matters most: building products that people love and that make a difference to the shared future of life on Earth. We’ve shown that we can make great sustainable energy products, and we now need to show that we can be sustainably profitable. With all the progress we’ve made on Model 3, we’re positioned to do this, and that’s what the team and I are going to be putting all of our efforts toward.

Thank you to all of our investors, customers and employees for the support you’ve given our company. I’m incredibly excited to continue leading Tesla as a public company. It is a privilege.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 25, 2018 - 08:17am PT
tooth,

There are a great many things wrong in the economic world we live in, in addition to waste and pollution.

Research has shown that people will pay an additional 15% premium for products and services that are produced by environmentally conscious companies—but not much more than that.

Sorry to say but in the last analysis everyone’s purchasing decisions are invariably a question of price, associated with a given level of quality (if they can measure it).

We all love visionaries, but they must make good on the sale of their visions to stakeholders.

Investors and buyers almost never understand a new technology nor have firm handles on new market segmentations. Everyone is betting on the come. Since no one really knows what will happen in the future, astute investors and buyers (imagine VCs’ investment decisions) will default to the perceived character of leaders and their leadership teams. When in doubt, buyers will go for proven brands, and investors will back “good management teams.”

Musk doesn’t always seem to understand these issues very well at times. The consistency and economic effects of his decisions (especially with regards to production, but now finance) have suggested to investors that he may not know what he’s doing. Furthermore, the ethics of his character has been tarnished. Musk has not been managing his and his company’s images adroitly.

As above, when people cannot readily judge the worth of new product ideas in new market spaces, they will make decisions based upon perceived legitimacy, credibility, and character. Musk and Tesla has problems in all of these areas.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 25, 2018 - 08:18am PT
The true mark of an unbridled ego - making a fait accompli look a choice. Well played, Sir Elon!
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 25, 2018 - 09:26am PT
I'm not against electric cars. I am against the naive attitude that we are recycling batteries properly. We are not. I've been in the auto repair & or manufacturing business my entire life. I know a little of what I'm talking about.

In the early 70's I work through high school driving tow trucks for the 2nd largest OPG in the U.S. I never had to put on a hazardous waste suite to get a car off the freeway. That is going to be standard equipment with these new batteries.

tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 25, 2018 - 11:07am PT
Batteries used to have cobalt in them. You don’t have to evolve if you die.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 25, 2018 - 11:45am PT
A better investment than TSLA would be in batt recycling.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 25, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
If you ignore the fact that the largest battery manufacturer in the world has designed them for reuse and has their own recycling in-house.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 25, 2018 - 02:32pm PT
LA Times review today of the new Jag I Pace says it is every bit as good as the Model X, and then some. Audi, Porsche, Merc, and Bimmer all due to bring their e’s out in next few months. They all know how to build quality rides AND make money doing it.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 25, 2018 - 02:53pm PT
Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy


How well do you think they are doing? What does the iPace and Bolt plus all these other new cars coming out say about their ten year old mission statement?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 26, 2018 - 05:59pm PT
This guy is fascinating! I wish him well.

A Karma ( a competing e car) ad appeared at the top of the page.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 28, 2018 - 01:08pm PT
Reuters:

With a debt load of about $10.5 billion and the possibility of an impending cash shortfall, Wall Street expects the luxury electric carmaker may need to raise funds before long.

Tesla Chief Executive Musk said late on Friday he would heed shareholder concerns and no longer pursue a $72 billion take-private deal, abandoning an idea that stunned investors and may draw regulatory scrutiny.

None of that has done anything to help it with a looming issue: cash.

Tesla, which has had just one quarter of positive free cash flow since the fourth quarter of 2013, has $1.3 billion in debt coming due in the next 12 months. Meanwhile it has just $1.3 billion of cash on hand after backing out $942 million of customer deposits on cars.

With analysts forecasting a slowed, but continued, cash burn in the second half of 2018, Tesla may need to borrow up to $2 billion by the end of the year to stay afloat.

In response to a request for comment, a Tesla representative referred to Musk’s statement on the company’s second-quarter earnings call when he said the company planned to pay its convertible debt with internally generated cash flow.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

“internally generated cash flow“? That sounds like ‘magic cash flow’.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 28, 2018 - 01:33pm PT
They pass around a basket at the next company meeting.

Done.

Sigh... sadly I've been at startups that have done that. Tough times.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 29, 2018 - 07:55am PT
What I don't get is it would seem some people are expecting Honda/Toyota reliability and support....

It would seem to be more akin to an exotic to me. It's going to break, and when it does it'll be very expensive and difficult, if not impossible in some cases.

Someone I work with was complaining about his new 3. Little stuff and strange electronic gremlins... I really think he expected an Accord (which has 30+ years of evolution behind it).

They are neat and if you've got the $$$ great, but know you'll be beta-testing an exotic.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2018 - 08:08am PT
The guy doing his own repairs on the Tesla is smart.

But doesn't have a good background on repairing automotive electrical connections.

He was using the worst garbage to splice some wires together which will definitely cause him some
troubleshooting headaches down the line when corrosion sets in on those horrible connectors he was using.

It's much better to solder those connections or use heat shrink crimp terminals.

Soldering is the best and most reliable in areas where exposure to the elements is, especially where moisture can enter ......

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 29, 2018 - 11:10am PT
What I don't get is it would seem some people are expecting Honda/Toyota reliability and support....

It would seem to be more akin to an exotic to me. It's going to break, and when it does it'll be very expensive and difficult, if not impossible in some cases...

They are neat and if you've got the $$$ great, but know you'll be beta-testing an exotic.

Not being reliable was doable for a luxury sports car. But a lot of people have pointed out that customer expectations in the $35,000 to $50,000 range are a lot different.

Both the reliability in the first place and, when something does go wrong on a newish car, that you can take it into to the dealer and have it promptly fixed.

We will see how model 3 reliability intersects with Tesla's customer's expectations.

Maybe the cult of Elon Musk will carry them through. But I'm not betting on that.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 4, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
Mercedes shows off its new electrics and Tesla tanks - down just shy of 5% today to 289.
Right about 10% for the last 5 days.
The shorts are breathless with anticipation. Not a peep from Elon in like a week.
Has his matron muzzled him?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 4, 2018 - 06:32pm PT
So that explains why Kanuckian Immigration gives me such a hard time!
I guess I need to stop pretending that I like it?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Sep 5, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Sep 6, 2018 - 07:14am PT
Tooth,

Er, . . . where is the “About Us” at that website (insideevs.com)? Who’s talking?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Sep 6, 2018 - 07:37am PT
Irrelevant bro. Those are simply numbers. Those numbers are as reported by each car mfg company. Any other source that reports numbers as reported by the mfg has the same. This aggregator has a pleasant layout. No alternative facts as you Americans salivate over.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Sep 6, 2018 - 09:16am PT
You're not answering the question, tooth.

Who is responsible for the website? Who made it?

It's a valid research (hermeneutics) question. Am I supposed to check every data point? To what extent can I rely upon the people / person who gathers the data?

Most of us don't have a great deal of trust for websites that don't identify themselves.

I've made this complaint to you in an earlier post upthread. You seem to have a tendency to find websites that don't identify themselves, or you present data without sources.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Sep 6, 2018 - 09:21am PT
BTW, tooth,

I used to teach at your best business school there (Ivey--UWO). Canadians have a tendency to call foul quickly when international competitors get the better of them, and they have a identifiable tendency to call its government for help when competition gets tough.

You're nice people, but competitively you're soft in international competitive environments. Sorry.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Sep 6, 2018 - 09:44am PT
And despite my business and statistics degrees/education from the US, which teach that you need to verify info regardless of the source, don’t trust anything. Remember that to be a dentist you have to take years of science degrees, learn how to read research, do research yourself and that includes statistics, and after years of that you don’t care about reputation or who the person is. The only thing that matters is the numbers or outcome. OTOH, you resort to generalized character attacks instead of admitting that the numbers are verifyibly true. Not a smart argument there kiddo!




I love how you didn’t like or want to verify the numbers so you attacked the character of Canadians! 👏 bravo!
RRad

Trad climber
Poway, CA
Sep 6, 2018 - 09:59am PT
https://insideevs.com/about/
Finding the "about us" took about 5 seconds...
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Sep 6, 2018 - 10:00am PT
The problem with hero worship or totally relying on what the people you approve tell you is that nobody is correct 100% of the time so when they are wrong, you are a fool.

Luckily for you, statistics are the easiest facts to verify so the last thing an educated person would attack with straw man or character attack arguments.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 6, 2018 - 10:01am PT
So yer not going to answer Mike’s polite question?
They don’t come much more polite than him.

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Tesla's (TSLA.O) stock and bond prices dropped on Wednesday after Chief Executive Elon Musk renewed an attack on a British caver whom he had previously insulted on social media and a day after Mercedes unveiled a challenge to the electric car maker.


Elon is coming seriously unhinged. I fail to see his value to TSLA.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Sep 6, 2018 - 10:27am PT
His polite question is a veiled passive aggressive argument in an attempt to discredit the numbers. He can post the about us part himself, tell people why he doesn’t like them and tell people why he then doesn’t like the numbers all by himself if he wants - it would look silly but at least it would simplify things. It’s an excercise in futility as the message is independent of the messenger - numbers straight from manufacturers.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 6, 2018 - 10:32am PT
Well, those numbers are history. The bottom line numbers are what count and those are growing more ominous by the day. How can Tesla compete with Jaguar, Audi, and Mercedes? Those guys make money, Tesla bleeds cash. It ain’t a matter of ‘If’.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Sep 6, 2018 - 10:40am PT
Numbers count. Show me anyone making money on electric cars. Chevy doesn’t on the Bolt. Heck, show me one non-compliance BEV sold by an American company. Also, driving the new jag beside a Tesla means the Tesla will go 50% further down the road before needing to recharge. And then they can. On the supercharger network. What can Jaguar do??And so then , how are they really a competitor yet? Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see all cars electric as I have one if each and the gasser never gets used now. But the hopes and dreams of people who talk about Tesla killers are just as far off as $tsla is or Musks tweets have been!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 6, 2018 - 10:47am PT
LA Times review of I Pace a week or so ago said it was every bit as good as the Model X, plus the doors work.
Trust me, Merc, Audi, and Jag will make money on their cars.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Sep 6, 2018 - 10:50am PT
If you compare bottom line numbers between companies you will find that the profitability of the 3 is close to 30% when compared to the Bolt which is under 0%. However, if you add in the charging network to both, you add 0 to the Bolt and this is what you are usually spoon fed by media. Which means you are fooled into comparing apples to oranges. Easy to tell the frothy-at-the-mouth haters/lovers from the thinkers on that point alone.


I trust you Reilly. They will make money. I don’t trust anyone telling me how good a car is until I own/drive it though. How about you?


What car reviewer knows my needs of living in northern BC hundreds of miles from a supercharger and would have told me that he X tows better than my truck? I just looked at numbers and found out that they don’t lie and surprisingly it was better than advertised, keeps getting even better and has none of the scary things that the FUD-mongers like to print for click bait.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Sep 6, 2018 - 01:09pm PT
Numbers count. Show me anyone making money on electric cars.

Well if making electric cars is going to be a long term losing game before finally turning profitable (like Amazon was), then I would bet on the deep pocket books of the Germ