Everest Avalanche

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 121 - 140 of total 313 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Oregon

Apr 21, 2014 - 11:41am PT

when ever i go climbing. You?

Apparently you aren't, or your climbing is all past tense.

SC seagoat

Trad climber

Santa Cruz CA

Apr 21, 2014 - 11:41am PT

Thanks Jan.

Susan

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Oregon

Apr 21, 2014 - 11:48am PT

Maybe we need to define terms.

I'll use Webster's.

de·ter transitive verb \di-ˈtər, dē-\
: to cause (someone) to decide not to do something

: to prevent (something) from happening

If you are doing it, you haven't been deterred.

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Oregon

Apr 21, 2014 - 12:07pm PT

I'm not talking about limiting objective hazards, I'm talking about not climbing because of them.

Do you know what and objective hazard is?

Objective hazards are those which exist without regard to a climber's presence and are defined as those out of your control. Every climb has them, whether you chose to acknowledge them or not. The only difference between climbs is one of degree.

You may chose to limit objective danger, but only by not being in its presence. You don't eliminate objective hazard other than by not doing the activity. If you are on Everest, you are accepting hazard and are not deterred.

It's not a hard concept to grasp unless you are in complete denial of what an objective hazard is.

jstan

climber

Apr 21, 2014 - 02:25pm PT

It seems disproportionation of risk is a problem. The sherpa appear to be suggesting a "free market" answer. Pay them what their service is worth.

A small comment. If sherpa are paid per "season" the pay is necessarily not proportional to risk. They might better be paid based on hours at altitude and trips through the ice fall. This might even encourage clients to carry some of their own equipment. Or even cook their own meals.

granite_girl

Trad climber

Oakland

Apr 21, 2014 - 02:25pm PT

It seems like the mountain guides in Europe keep their mountains pretty safe. Well, relatively safe, since there are still occasional deaths from avalanches and other objective hazards. They set bolts where necessary, implement "rules" to keep guided parties on popular routes at the front of the line, have extensive training and certification requirements, and otherwise pretty much run the show in certain areas. Matterhorn and Mont Blanc come to mind as being particularly regulated. Mind you, I haven't actually climbed in Europe, or with a European guide, but this is my impression from researching potential climbing trips.

There are still plenty of fantastic routes on other mountains, or even other faces of the same mountains, to keep everyone (most people) happy.

I wonder if there are any lessons that the Sherpa's could draw from the European guiding experience that would help them as they develop their own mountain protocols.

McHale's Navy

Trad climber

From Panorama City, CA

Apr 21, 2014 - 02:42pm PT

Most of the "clients" are clueless about the objective hazards of the icefall.

If the application process required them to survive a round of russian roulette they might have a better idea,..

Didn't the avalanche that caused the deaths come off Nuptse.......not that the ice-fall is not dangerous. That's like a grand slam.

Scott Patterson

Mountain climber

Craig

Apr 21, 2014 - 02:53pm PT

This should be done for every season:

//Sherpa Demands

The demands from the Sherpas are wide ranging and include:

• Increment of immediate relief announced for avalanche victims

• Provide Rs 10 million (US$103,590) each to families of deceased

• Set up a memorial park in the name of the deceased in Kathmandu

• Cover all expenses for treatment of the injured

• Provide Rs 10 million (US$103,590) to critically hurt who cannot rejoin mountaineering activities

• Set up mountaineering relief fund with 30 per cent of royalty collected from issuing permits to different mountains (est $1M for 2014)

• Double the insurance amount to the mountaineering workers

• Provide additional chopper rescue to mountaineering support staff if insurance fails to cover the cost

• Provide perks and salaries, except summit bonus, through concerned agencies to Sherpas if they want to call off climbing this season

• Manage chopper to bring logistics and equipment from different camps if mountaineers decide to abandon climbing this season

• Don’t take action against SPCC icefall doctors if they refuse to fix ropes and ladders on the route this season

• Let the expedition members to call off this season’s climbing if they wish so//

It seems like the mountain guides in Europe keep their mountains pretty safe.

Apples and oranges though. Even the safest 8000 meter peaks have higher death rates than almost all the mountains in Europe. Unless people stop climbing, the death rate for an 8000 meter peak will likely never be as low as it is on most European peaks.

William Finley

Social climber

Anchorage

Apr 21, 2014 - 03:03pm PT

Incredibly potent mix of motivations. I felt that lure for years. Its sad that the most popular route is guarded by an insane amount of seracs. I can't think of any other mountain where folks willingly put themselves in such a situation so commonly.

Alpamayo, Huascaran, Mont Maudit, Mont Blanc?

granite_girl

Trad climber

Oakland

Apr 21, 2014 - 03:19pm PT

Apples and oranges though. Even the safest 8000 meter peaks have higher death rates than almost all the mountains in Europe. Unless people stop climbing, the death rate for an 8000 meter peak will likely never be as low as it is on most European peaks.

Agreed, Scott Patterson. The mountains are very different. And European mountains aren't totally safe either. However, it seems like the European mountain guides have much more control than the Sherpas over their personal agency on the mountains. For example, the Sherpas apparently feel that they are risking penalties if they refuse to finish this season. 13 people died. There should be no question that individuals or whole teams can pull out if they feel the need.

Anyway, the whole situation is saddening. I hope that the Sherpas find a way to manage Everest so that they are comfortable with the risk/benefit trade-off.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Apr 21, 2014 - 03:20pm PT

Finley

None of those peaks have commonly used routes that even slightly compare to the Khumbu Icefall. Yes they have routes with seracs exposure.. But that Khumbu is orders of magnitude worse than anything I know of that is used regularly.

It's not just the icefall.. which is insane in itself. It is the Seracs looming above it. One would have a hard time deliberately designing a worse route.

It's almost like someone said.. lets find the worst imaginable way up a mountain.. and then went up it.

William Finley

Social climber

Anchorage

Apr 21, 2014 - 03:30pm PT

Yes the Khumbu is worse - I was just pointing out that high objective risk is part of the game on many mountains and that avalanches on this scale happen in many other places.

I fully agree that Sherpas should be compensated more in the event of injury or death, I just get frustrated when a bunch of westerners pontificate how the Sherpa people should go about their business.

Perhaps this tragedy will result in better compensation - which is great. But the usual cries of "Everest is a joke" "Close it down" are misguided. If the Sherpa people are adequately compensated and they're willing to undertake the risk, then why the outcry?

What are the other options? Go through Tibet? Send the displaced workers to Quatar?

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Apr 21, 2014 - 03:33pm PT

Do Sherpas climb on their own or only as a way to gain employment. I am sure some do but I would guess many do not spend their off time climbing. I think it is great they earn their money from it but it seems to me you should be experienced, capable, and love climbing to risk your life for it. Many up there do not have all three it would seem. This would obviously apply mostly to westerners buying there way up the peak but also to Sherpas that are only in it for a job.

Scott Patterson

Mountain climber

Craig

Apr 21, 2014 - 04:12pm PT

Do Sherpas climb on their own or only as a way to gain employment. I am sure some do but I would guess many do not spend their off time climbing.

As mentioned in an earlier post, some do climb on their own without being paid (increasingly more common). The infamous season of 2006 on K2 for example, had Sherpa as members of climbing teams. They just wanted to climb K2 and were unpaid.

Most of the speed records on Everest and some other 8000 meter peaks are set by Sherpa and they do not (at least not directly) get paid to do this.

The majority do not climb on their own, however, at least on the really big mountains.

Sherpa do however climb on their own on smaller mountains ("smaller" by Himalayan standards). It seems that there is hardly a non-glaciated peak anywhere in Nepal that isn't adorned with prayer flags, even on many of the peaks which are "semi-technical". Near monasteries especially, even on exposed peaks that would have a 5th class YDS grade, there are prayer flags and the mountains are usually climbed fairly frequently by Sherpa. They do however, usually climb those mountains for different reasons than we do.

AKDOG

Mountain climber

Anchorage, AK

Apr 21, 2014 - 04:22pm PT

It seems like the mountain guides in Europe keep their mountains pretty safe. Well, relatively safe, since there are still occasional deaths from avalanches and other objective hazards.

My guess is more people die in the Alps every year than anywhere else. Personally I think it is a sht show over there at times, more about cattle herding, watching un-spaced groups on avalanche slopes seem common when I climbed there. 30 people died on Mt Blanc alone in 2007.

Ham and Eggs

Mountain climber

Aoraki/Mt Cook Village

Apr 21, 2014 - 05:09pm PT

A small comment. If sherpa are paid per "season" the pay is necessarily not proportional to risk. They might better be paid based on hours at altitude and trips through the ice fall. This might even encourage clients to carry some of their own equipment. Or even cook their own meals

The Sherpa and Sherpani are already paid a base rate for the season. And paid additional amounts for load carries. And often, receive a gratuity as well.

Anyone know much about the earful you cop, if as a Westerner, you insit on carrying your own loads and cooking your own meals?

The local community continues to insist on more and more money. Better pay conditions etc. are warranted. If they however want to be paid Western Guide rates, they should develop western guide level skills.

The likes of HIMEX and Adventure Consultants have for years, been supporting the families of Sherpa and Sherpani lost, be it directly, or indirectly through the Hillary Foundation. Both companies have also helped the families of Sherpa and Sherpani find work in the likes of New Zealand, France, Japan and Austria - they continue to do so.

This avalanche had nothing to do with how much people get paid, though it has been used as a forum to highlight the pay and insurance issue. For many years, the Sherpa and Sherpani asked for more work - so as has been observed, more and more have been provided work on the mountain, so now we have locals outnumbering clients by 2:1 - it's adding to the cluster F! And now the locals are also wanting more money - but they don't want the Sherpa to client ratio to decrease.

SPCC should no-longer be setting the route through the Khumbu. 'Hand it back' to Western Guides with 30+ years of solid climbing and guiding in the mountains.

The new local guiding services which are starting to rock-up, the bosses ought be UIAGM/IFMGA certified - full certification, not this 'proviso exemption' standard that the NMGA has received. Couple years climbing/guiding solid routes around the world, in a genuine lead role, experiencing varying conditions, as a minimum.

And the old scene of western clients rocking-up, on summit day not knowing how to walk-in crampons or use a jumar etc. - the responsible guiding companies have not allowed such folk on their teams for years.

John Ely

Trad climber

Apr 21, 2014 - 05:10pm PT

Here's another view of the avalanche from below in the link in the comment below. The clips above are from the camp above. Pretty horrifying. Appears to be a huge avalanche off a spur of the West Ridge.

At the end of World War II, the development of the relative equality of the New Deal in the US and social democratic system in Europe, and the destruction of the old British imperial order, it was striking how much climbing was done with new nylon braided ropes, surplus webbing and 'biners - and by citizens with few or no guides.

With the post-Reagan growth of unchecked capital accumulation, and the vast inequalities, both within countries and more extravagantly on a global scale - our new 'gilded age' - the old guiding industry from the late 19th and early 20th century has come back in spades. As much as I would prefer an older system of learning to climb at your local mountain club or gym and then build long and slowly towards bigger and bigger goals with one's own enterprise, joining eventually into expeditions as teams, the shape of the global order is not in line with this essentially post-WWII ethic.

In a larger perspective, the Everest and 8000 meter industry is part of the advertising banners for a huge trekking and tourist economic sector in Nepal and the Himalaya in general that is an important part of Nepal's future welfare. Purchasing mandatory life insurance and establishing a scale of living wages for this dangerous work would help ease the burden and jack the price up for tourists, but Nepal has difficulties. As the Washington Post notes today, Amnesty International is nearly as critical of the Nepalese as it is the Qatari Gov't for allowing inhuman working conditions for its migrant labor in Qatar because foreign remittances, despite the horrific conditions (Qatar as an 'open jail'), are a major portion of the country's GDP....

Probably one should just build a tram line up the west ridge.....