Preserve Bolts at Christmas Tree Pass

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moosedrool

climber
lost, far away from Poland
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 12, 2014 - 11:46am PT
I got an email from Access Found asking for action.


"We need your help to stop the NPS from removing bolts on wilderness climbs at Christmas Tree Pass!

Even if you do not climb at Christmas Tree Pass, your voice is needed to help prevent Lake Mead Recreation Area from setting a dangerous precedent that could affect climbing at other National Parks."

http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=520695

I have never been to that area. What is your opinion. Is the place overbolted?

Andrzej

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 12, 2014 - 11:49am PT
Letter sent
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Mar 12, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
I have never been there either - disclaimer.
It seems that the NPS has already modified its initial bolt removal proposal of 4 years ago.
Now, per the AF:
"...the plan also states that the number of ‘bolt-intensive face climbs’ should be reduced to protect Wilderness character (solitude specifically) and natural and cultural resources. (A previous version of this plan was released in 2010 and scrapped due to issues raised by climbers and Native Americans.)
The draft Wilderness Management Plan calls for NPS managers to identify concentrations of their dubious interpretation of ‘bolt-intensive face climbs’ in order to decide which routes to erase for the sake of protecting Wilderness character."

That does still seem vague. What does it take to be "bolt-intensive?"
    one bolted route with a bolt every 20 feet?
    4 such routes spaced 30 feet apart? 40 feet apart?
    one apparently rap bolted sport route?
    4 such routes spaced 20 feet apart?


Based on what was posted in previous threads, apparently one sport crag was bolted there.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1151982&tn=100
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2111707&msg=2113134#msg2113134
Could removing some of those particular concentrated bolts be enough to resolve the issue?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2014 - 10:20pm PT
Letter sent.

I can understand their concern for Spirit Mountain, but the Bridge Canyon Wilderness where the majority of the climbing is located is not an issue. The backcountry petroglyphs have no climbing routes near them, there's no chalk on the rock art. Any damage to rock art has come from idiots in Grapevine Canyon, not the climbers. The climbing impact has been good. Quite a bit of the litter at Dali Dome has been removed. Bags of spent shotgun shells have been collected.

They do need to post the wilderness areas. Keeping out the off-roaders would be a good thing.
moosedrool

climber
lost, far away from Poland
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2014 - 10:54pm PT
Send some letters people.

Please.

Andrzej
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Mar 13, 2014 - 12:16am PT
done and done
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Mar 13, 2014 - 12:33am PT
Bags of shotgun shells? No surprise in this state. Went to Pig Rock today North of Reno and it's a beautiful spot covered in graffiti, shot up junk, shell casings, and broken glass. Way to go! The climb we "warmed up" on appeared to have had gas poured down it and ignited. You stay classy! Woo! Party in the desert!

I'll write when I get to a PC. Don't ban bolts, drone strike rednecks, lol!
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 13, 2014 - 08:28am PT
The Lake Mead National Recreation Area Bolt Choppers are at it again
Please use either one of the links below to post your opposition to the latest NPS bolt CHOPPING plan. Comments are due on or before March 23, 2014.

Access Fund Comment Tool
http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=520695

Park Service Comment Link
http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=317&projectID=16820&documentID=57044
then click on "Comment on Document"
Comment Period: 01/14/2014 - 03/23/2014

The latest CTP bolt chopping plan is a solution in search of a problem.
The land managers from both NPS and LMNRA have been trying to come up with an excuse for chopping all of the bolts at Christmas Tree Pass, NV, aka: Bridge Canyon Wilderness since 2009. There are about 90 established routes at CTP, about 80% bolt protected. And, most of the bolts were placed on the lead using a star drill and a 20 OZ piton hammer.

This bolt chopping B.S. is government at its absolute worst. Loose Cannon Land Managers who hate rock climbers and rock climbing abusing their authority and discretion to punitively, capriciously, arbitrarily and maliciously destroy a climbing area. They should be scourged.

Hopefully, CTP won't be Cave Rock II.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Fresno, CA
Mar 13, 2014 - 09:09am PT
Letter sent. We stopped them from chopping bolts in 2010 and we can do it again.
kaholatingtong

Trad climber
Nevada City
Mar 13, 2014 - 09:15am PT
sent.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Mar 13, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Sent one, too. Isn't the Forest Service supposed to support reasonable multiple use of resources under their jurisdiction?
Manny

Social climber
tempe
Mar 13, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
Letter sent. I support climbing in wilderness. I do it all the time and have placed bolts in wilderness. I never heard a single complaint, not even in Christmas tree pass. Until now.
DesertRatExpeditions

Trad climber
Flagstaff, Arizona
Mar 13, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
Letter Sent.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Mar 13, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
*BUMP* Letter Sent
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 13, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
"Sent one, too. Isn't the Forest Service supposed to support reasonable multiple use of resources under their jurisdiction? "

A lot of this is just "Empire Building" by another federal bureaucracy that is looking to expand. They cut all the trees down and went looking for other things to manage. Best to tell your congressfolks to just cut their funding so that they can start to prioritize important things and drop stupid bullshit like this, but until that time, send letters.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire-building
Climberdude

Trad climber
Fresno, CA
Mar 13, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
Bump - already sent letter.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 13, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
The US Forest Service is under the Department of Agriculture and has an entirely different mission than the National Park Service which is under the Department of the Interior.

From Wikipedia:
Spirit Mountain Wilderness Area is a 33,518-acre wilderness area located in the Newberry Mountains in Clark County, Nevada. It is managed by the Bureau of Land Management and the National Park Service. Most of the wilderness is located in the Lake Mead National Recreation Area. The area is adjacent to both the Nellis Wash Wilderness Area and the Bridge Canyon Wilderness Area.



This proposal is asinine and could set a dangerous precedent for climbing on public lands.
bpope

Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
Mar 13, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
bump for more letters
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Mar 13, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
sent mine.

Bump for more!
crunch

Social climber
CO
Mar 13, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
letter sent
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 13, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
Here is a link to the National Park Service "Director's Order #41: Wilderness Stewardship" in regards to climbing in NPS Wilderness. Sorry I can't figure out how to paste the whole section, see pages 15-16 of the document:

http://www.nps.gov/policy/DOrders/DO-41%28Corr%29.pdf

"The NPS recognizes that climbing is a legitimate and appropriate use of wilderness. However, any climbing use or related activity must be restricted or prohibited when its occurrence, continuation, or expansion would result in unacceptable impacts to wilderness resources or character, or interfere significantly with the experience of other park visitors."



I'll be the first to admit that climbers are terrible land stewards. I hope this is changing. In regards to Christmas Tree Pass, with crappy rock quality and the lack of suitable terrain for climbing, along with maybe, maybe two hundred climbers a year this proposal is ludicrous. More importantly, if passed it could set a dangerous precedent.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 13, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
I'll disagree about climbers being bad land stewards. The folks that I have gone out there with over the last dozen years have always left the climbing area cleaner than they found it. Bottles, beer cans, 'dozer parts, and shotgun shells always get carried out. We usually have two garbage bags full of empty bottles and cans. (OK, some of those are ours, but still)

And while there is some crappy rock out there, there's some good rock and some good routes. Routes that would make you wish that they were "bolt-intensive." Its remoteness is its charm. Like what Joshua Tree must have been like in the '50s. No crowds at Dali Dome. Wilkerson Sword is a true classic climb. H&R Block has good rock and good routes.

The first bolt is always a long way off the deck. It's not fun to pop off before getting to it.

It's worth fighting to keep. Although, I think they might make some good points about Spirit Mountain.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 13, 2014 - 09:18pm PT
That's awesome, keep up the litter clean up.

I stand by my generalization that many climbers have been terrible land stewards. Just take a glance at R&I mag or Mountain Project, but I don't want to derail this thread.

Scott B told me Wilkinson's Sword was a classic, hope to do it someday.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Mar 13, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
The Plan’s definition of ‘bolt-intensive face climb’ is inappropriate and should not be used to determine whether the NPS will remove fixed anchors.

(from the access funds page...)

What is the definition? Anyone know? Searched for it, just can't find anything specific. Just 'sport climbs, bolt ladders'.

Is this standard being applied abstractly? Who is allowed to make the determination of what bolt-intensive means?

I have to say I agree with the concept, but perhaps existing routes could/should be grandfathered in if they were established before the wilderness designation.

I won't support any Access Fund campaign that seeks approval for sport climbs and bolt ladders in wilderness areas.
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 14, 2014 - 01:12am PT
The term "bolt-intensive face climb" is not well defined in the latest NPS LMNRA rock climbing management plan. Further, there are no bolt intensive multi-pitch face climbs at Christmas Tree Pass that I am aware of.

A lot of the routes we did back in the 1970s have 35' run outs on 5.10c and ground falls clipping into the belay bolts at the top of the first pitch. Credit Dick Richardson (RIP: 5/11/1998) for the extreme danger factor. Let's just say that there are not a lot of extra bolts on the old classic multi-pitch routes at Christmas Tree Pass. We did quite a few 2 or 3 pitch routes, one 4 pitch route and one five pitch route out there during the 1970s - all face climbing and all bolt protected.

Land Managers are supposed to manage the wilderness in a way that both preserves the wilderness and makes it available for safe recreational use by the people, some of whom are rock climbers.

Unfortunately, land managers Greg Jarvis and Jim Holland have a personal bias against rock climbers and rock climbing. They think that it is their job to protect wilderness from human beings, rock climbers in particular. And, they want to do that by constructively banning rock climbing by prohibiting any new bolts and granting themselves broad power to unilaterally decide which bolts need to be removed.

What we do NOT want to do is give NPS // LMNRA land managers who have a personal bias against rock climbing and rock climbers broad unspecified power to decide how many bolts is too many or not enough.


I didn't install the sport climbing bolts. And, if it was up to me, I would remove all bolts placed on rappel on routes that are short enough to top rope.
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Mar 14, 2014 - 11:27am PT
Bump for the Friday crowd
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Mar 14, 2014 - 11:30am PT
Ive thought on this much.

All BLM and USFS property and lands already have CFR's on the books that point to a bolt or fixed pro as an illegal thing. They ALREADY have all the power they need.

See sec 261.6H of the code of federal regulations, title 36.

Ive had many bolts/hangars stolen - one whole crag worth in the early 90s, and then more hangars stolen from a couple of routes more recently. So for me, im fed up with providing some d-bag little shyts a free supply of hangars.. So after thinking on this, i wont support another petition of this sort. As far as im concerned we as a group went apeshyt with bolts long ago, and that only gets worse. The last time i was at the ORG, i couldnt believe the "outdoor gym" look to it all, and i could not feel anything besides shame that such goings on were part if the game i was involved with.


In N NV, the many routes that have gone up the last few years have but 1 fixed piece in total..There are NO "convenience" anchors either.. Since when was rock climbing supposed to be "convenient".. Nothing like three bolts in between perfectly good anchor cracks..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Mar 14, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
WML,, you started climbing well after the surge of bolted climbing took place in the USA. So from your angle i can see why you think like you do.

However, there are many bans on bolting now, as well as all fixed protection. The writing is on the wall. ONLY climbers think bolts are any such "work of art". The rest of the world not so much. One of the main arguments at cave rock was all the fixed draws dangling down. Now days those draws are getting replaced with chains. Even more ugly to any one other than climbers. Especially given the nature of the routes going in today are mostly near access that all other users have as well.


Are we being land stewards of any fashion by pin cushioning every face with holds there is- a bolt every 7.384 feet ? That answer is of course,, NO. Long ago,, those faces werent even considered routes- as there was no ACCEPTABLE way to protect them other than a slung knob. Then a scant few bolts were done on seriously runout routes that today, are either retro bolted to gym norms, or ignored and called stupid selfish death routes.


Perhaps to understand the evolution of climbing here you had to live it. The FREE climbing revolution here did NOT start on the back of a bosch but rather the invention of removable protection.

In the end, its the land that will suffer no matter how you slice or dice it.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 14, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Comments are due by March 23.

Here is a link to the Access Fund from the OP:


http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=520695
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Mar 14, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
Never been there, but isn't equating grid bolting to that found at Christmas Tree Pass a poor use of brain?

Here's all you need to know about bolting: the general public doesn't give a sh#t. The end.

Send a letter and save the ethics wank, fellas.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 15, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
Here is some more information posted from the Access Fund website (see link above):

The draft Wilderness Management Plan calls for NPS managers to identify concentrations of their dubious interpretation of ‘bolt-intensive face climbs’ in order to decide which routes to erase for the sake of protecting Wilderness character. This interpretation of the national-level NPS policy on wilderness climbing management and fixed anchors, outlined in Director’s Order #41 (DO#41), is potentially damaging to climbing routes located in National Parks nationwide.

This plan does not treat climbers as equals to other Wilderness visitors, does not reflect widely accepted interpretations of DO#41, and is not consistent with how Wilderness climbing is managed by other National Parks across the country. Furthermore, the proposed plan is not based on well-substantiated resource impacts, scientific analysis, or visitor use patterns and impacts. The Access Fund has conducted site visits, met with park planners, and provided a lengthy list of management plans—also used by Department of Interior-managed climbing areas—where managers effectively balance public access with resource protection. See Access Fund's official comment letter for a detailed analysis of the Wilderness Management Plan.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 17, 2014 - 11:12am PT
Bump

Ron, there is no grid bolting at Christmas Tree Pass. And if you don't want you hangers stolen, place buttonheads.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Mar 17, 2014 - 11:20am PT
Meh, no grounds needed for that one to whine.

This move by the management down there is incrimpehrnsubull. As Gary just related, I always heard the ethic there was in line with tuolumne, not org i.e. ground up and spaced. If they can't handle the "crowds" of climbers and "over bolting" there, they'll have to close down Yose, like, yesterday.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Mar 17, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
bump for letters to be sent
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 18, 2014 - 11:57am PT
Bump
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 18, 2014 - 10:54pm PT
There are still a handful of days to comment on this proposal (click link above). I hope that all folks who enjoy recreating and rock climbing on National Park Service land take a few minutes to make their opinion known.

andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 19, 2014 - 05:42am PT
The Access Fund has conducted site visits, met with park planners, and provided a lengthy list of management plans—also used by Department of Interior-managed climbing areas—where managers effectively balance public access with resource protection.

In fact, the Access Fund has bent over backwards trying to reason with LMNRA land mangers Greg Jarvis and Jim Holland (retired?) for more than 5 years without any success whatever. Those two cretins have been obsessing about chopping all of the bolts in the Bridge Canyon Wilderness since 2009. See Erik Murdock's very well written Access Fund comment letter at: Access Fund LMNRA EIS comment letter

Inexplicably, LMNRA Superintendent William K. Dickinson has left Jarvis and Holland in charge of creating a rock climbing management plan for LMNRA since 2009. Jarvis and Holland have been repetitively publishing the same bolt chopping plan for more than five years (with a few very minor revisions). Neither Jarvis nor Holland knows anything about rock climbing. Further, on information and belief, none of the rangers who work for Bill Dickinson are rock climbers. And, no employee of NPS or LMNRA has ever been climbing in the Bridge Canyon Wilderness.

If Bill Dickinson had any brains, he would have just borrowed the ranger who manages rock climbing at Red Rock Canyon, Nevada from the BLM and had him put together a rock climbing management plan for LMNRA. On information and belief, the Red Rocks ranger is a rock climber.

I want to see either Jarvis or Holland lead one of Dick Richardson's run out 5.10c face routes, I mean 35 to 40 feet of continuous 5.10c right off the belay bolts to the first bolt. And, after they fall 70 feet onto a two bolt belay (originally 2 - 1/4" dia x 1 1/8" deep Rawl contraction anchors circa 1978), I want to hear them say that the route (Exhibition) is over-bolted. Almost forgot, the last pitch of Exhibition has no leader protection (easy 5th class IF you don't freak out and go the wrong way).
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 19, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
The Lake Mead National Recreation Area Bolt Choppers are at it again
Please use either one of the links below to post your opposition to the latest NPS bolt CHOPPING plan. Comments are due on or before March 23, 2014.

Access Fund Comment Tool
http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=520695

Park Service Comment Link
http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=317&projectID=16820&documentID=57044
then click on "Comment on Document"
Comment Period: 01/14/2014 - 03/23/2014

The latest CTP bolt chopping plan is a solution in search of a problem.
The land managers from both NPS and LMNRA have been trying to come up with an excuse for chopping all of the bolts at Christmas Tree Pass, NV, aka: Bridge Canyon Wilderness since 2009. There are about 90 established routes at CTP, about 80% bolt protected. And, most of the bolts were placed on the lead using a star drill and a 20 OZ piton hammer.

This bolt chopping B.S. is government at its absolute worst. Loose Cannon Land Managers who hate rock climbers and rock climbing abusing their authority and discretion to punitively, capriciously, arbitrarily and maliciously destroy a climbing area. They should be scourged.

Hopefully, CTP won't be Cave Rock II.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 20, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Deadline is March 23
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 20, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
When they outlaw climbing only outlaws will climb.
Manny

Social climber
tempe
Mar 20, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Please write and stop this potentially devastating precedent. Takes a few seconds. Andrew and Dick put up some really challenging routes. I put a few up also. I did a couple of cracks and faces.

Grid bolting is not an issue. Removing bolts arbitrarily in our public lands is a bad thing. Let's stop it. Send your comments today:

http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=520695
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 20, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
Can't say I cared much for the [granular] rock when George and Joanne took me, and I wouldn't bother with Red Rock so near (I'm more a sandstone guy), but hell, those are some sphincter-puckering leads. Kudos. If sport climbers ever took a shine to the place you'd have to be back here asking folks to stop retro-infilling all those routes.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 20, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
Have any bolts actually been removed so far or are we still in the planning stage?

CTP is a perfect test case area for those sorry land managers that don't care for us as a user group. No real established local climbing or voting population to cause problems so that these clowns aren't risking much.

Once bolts are actually being removed then some well organized civil disobedience is wholly in order and will be organized very publicly so that the individuals involved will ultimately have to explain themselves in front of someone in power like my good friend Colorado Senator Mark Udall who can see that they are demoted or at least bridled.

I would love to believe that these comments gathered through the normal mechanisms used to dissipate electoral anger are being read and considered but I really doubt it will amount to much.

Having said that, comment away folks and wait to see what comes of it because you never know...

I was involved in the fixed anchors in wilderness discussion quite a while ago and these folks gamed us real well with alarmist, lawyer driven policy in the hopes that we would help them with their funding problems as a very vocal user group. This time the gloves are off if they see fit to spent precious resources actually pulling bolts to diminish our access and options.

A couple of media folks and some bullhorns and I do believe we could take care of this situation directly should these public servants choose not to involve us in the policy making as they clearly aren't inclined to now.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 20, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
I went there a few years ago when Ron put together an event with Layton Kor. Didn't find any climbing worth going back for....did I miss something?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 20, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
For me the issue was having to wipe my shoe on the opposite shin pretty much every single move to remove the ballbearing-like crystals that the rock continuously sheds. The fact that several meters of those crystals constitutes the 'soil' in the area kind of said it all to me.

But people do get their fascinations and obsessions - I've certainly been so afflicted from time-to-time - but couldn't quite 'get it' in this case even though, as I said, it's some ballsy climbing. I just [personally] didn't find it to be particularly enjoyable climbing irrespective of the difficulty / challenge.

Given the locale, not sure why this area was picked for de-bolting versus any other - how often does the place get visited by anyone of any user group at all?



R.B.

Trad climber
47N 122W
Mar 20, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
I remember climbing there in the early '80's with Tim Toula climbing the crunchy oatmealy 5.10 face climbs in his "Five Tennies." Even though it isn't a "five star" destination, it is worth visiting at least once in your lifetime.

I sent a comment letter to the NPS which basically says:

It is bad public land-use policy to remove existing bolts in established climbing areas where lead climbers would expect to be in place when climbing. If the govt removes the bolt, the govt is potentially liable for a wrongful government action lawsuit. Climbing in this area has probably been happening over 50 years, and this makes it a special historical land use that has protection under Section 106 of NEPA.
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 22, 2014 - 12:12am PT
For me the issue was having to wipe my shoe on the opposite shin pretty much every single move to remove the ballbearing-like crystals that the rock continuously sheds. The fact that several meters of those crystals constitutes the 'soil' in the area kind of said it all to me.
If you are willing to walk a little bit farther than you did, the rock quality at Christmas Tree Pass is as good or better than the best quartz monzonite at Joshua Tree National Monument. Be careful. Your next fart might be a wet one.
5.10c in EBs on 1/4" Rawl bolts circa 1978
5.10c in EBs on 1/4" Rawl bolts circa 1978
Credit: andrewsolow

Space Needle 'Lunar Flakes' pitch 4 circa 1977
Space Needle 'Lunar Flakes' pitch 4 circa 1977
Credit: andrewsolow

Space Needle
Space Needle
Credit: andrewsolow

Drill Master Pitch 2 circa 1979
Drill Master Pitch 2 circa 1979
Credit: andrewsolow

Following Drill Master pitch 2 circa 1979
Following Drill Master pitch 2 circa 1979
Credit: andrewsolow

Drill Master pitch 3 circa 1979
Drill Master pitch 3 circa 1979
Credit: andrewsolow

View of Dali Dome and the Space Needle from the top of Trac II circa 1...
View of Dali Dome and the Space Needle from the top of Trac II circa 1978
Credit: andrewsolow
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 22, 2014 - 01:10am PT
how often does the place get visited by anyone of any user group at all?
Not very often. Red Rocks is a lot closer to Las Vegas. Christmas Tree Pass is about 14 miles North West of Laughlin NV.
If you've got a little $$, you can stay at Harrah's in Laughlin for about $40 bucks per night, less if it's mid-week.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 23, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
I'm not certain if the comment period is still open through today, but it is worth a try.

I went there a few years ago when Ron put together an event with Layton Kor. Didn't find any climbing worth going back for....did I miss something?

Jim, I believe the issue which has activists concerned is that the NPS is, once again, proposing legislation to remove climbing protection bolts from public lands. CTP is a forgotten, seldom visited backwater with a handful of routes on sometimes questionable rock. With so many premier areas within just a few hour drive it might hardly be considered a destination area. Still cool though, and worth a visit.

It seems prudent that climbers who enjoy recreating in National Park Service Recreation Areas take just a couple of minutes to make their voices heard.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 23, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
The quality of the climbing and the question whether the NPS should be removing bolts are entirely separate issues. Joshua Tree has the same shite rock and is about 100 miles away.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 23, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
Very well said, OTE.

If the NPS takes it upon themselves to start removing bolts at CTP, what place is next? Joshua Tree Wilderness Areas? The Wilderness Area of El Capitan?
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 23, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
CTP is a forgotten, seldom visited backwater with a handful of routes on sometimes questionable rock.
Seldom visited is correct. But, the rock quality on the major formations is as good or better than the best quality rock found at Joshua Tree National Monument. See the pictures posted above in this thread.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 23, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
Point taken, Andrew. The one route I've done there so far was a sweet 100+' fist / handcrack with stellar rock (though a bit sharp for my tender sandstone hands). I would imagine there are some cool routes in the area.

I hope everyone takes a few minutes to make their voice heard.
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 24, 2014 - 07:26am PT
I've spent a lot of time wandering around CTP. The terrain is really rough. There's almost never any potable water. The place is full of Mohave Green rattle snakes from mid April thru Mid October (their bite is fatal if not treated within 2 hours). And, the Rangers will bust you if you camp within 1/2 mile of the road.

BUT, you definitely won't have any trouble finding a place to park. You definitely won't have to wait in line for your turn to climb. And, no one will cop an attitude no matter what your climbing ability happens to be.
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