Russia vs EU vs NATO vs US (OT)

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 41 - 60 of total 258 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 2, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
And what exactly Obama should do?

The thin is, when it comes to international affairs, all the US diplomacy cares about is how it will play back home now. No long term strategy, nothing. The example of Benghazi attack is very symptomatic for all the US foreign policy making. The US ambassador has been killed, and all the administration cares about - the freaking elections! The next game in town!

Putin is in the very different position. Bush dealt with Putin. Obama deals with Putin. And Obama's successor will be dealing with the same Putin. Putin's foreign minister Lavrov is a career diplomat tracing all the way back to Soviet times. What exactly was Kerry's expose to the foreign affairs in 1990s? How about Clinton's?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 2, 2014 - 06:09pm PT
Speaking of gas lines. They are owned by Ukraine state corporation. Never traded to Russia. About 1/3 gas supply to Europe comes from Russia. If you cut it now - Europe may not appreciate that. And about 100% of gas supply to Ukraine comes again from Russia. You want to fiddle with that?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 2, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
The thin is, when it comes to international affairs, all the US diplomacy cares about is how it will play back home now. No long term strategy, nothing. The example of Benghazi attack is very symptomatic for all the US foreign policy making. The US ambassador has been killed, and all the administration cares about - the freaking elections! The next game in town!


Yeah that's pretty obviously all wrong too.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 2, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
I'll bet those pipeline details are complex. I'm sure Ukraine does not want to piss off the EU by cutting supply, but I suspect they can leverage the transport of Russian crude.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 2, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
but I suspect they can leverage the transport of Russian crude.

No way if they want any part of what is in the pipes. Russia could just
build a new pipeline through Byelorussia and Poland. Sure, it would take a
few years during which the Ukrainian economy would collapse and they would
all freeze. The Ukraine doesn't hold any cards other than the sympathy card.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 2, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
The Ukraine doesn't hold any cards other than the sympathy card.
That is true. I'm not sure were crude lines go. As of NG - Russia has just built two new sea pipelines bypassing Ukraine. Very expensive protects. They would not do that if not for the history of Ukraine hijacking the Russia's EU customers supply.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Mar 2, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
How bad will Kerry mess up?

Get Hillary back or a replacment fast.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 2, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
$15 billion a few weeks ago when Yanukovych was begging the EU to sweeten the deal would have probably avoided this entire thing. Instead we are going to spend way more than that floating the Ukraine economy and flexing military muscle to keep Russia from taking the rest of Ukraine much less getting Crimea back.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 2, 2014 - 07:15pm PT
I doubt Putin is interested in the whole Ukraine. 45 million people, about 10 million retirees going on state paycheck? That is about $3-5 billion a month, giving the current average state pensions in Russia.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 2, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
the big scare in Washington at the moment

I really doubt anybody in Washington is scared - they know their pay checks are good and we
don't really have a dog in this fight - Obama just wants the world to think The Leader Of The
Free World is on the job, much as he has been for the Palastinians, Sudanese, Zairians,
Malians, Syrians, and all the Nigerians presently being slaughtered. You notice he doesn't
say sh!t to his Chinese paymasters regarding the Tibetans or the Uighurs.
WBraun

climber
Mar 2, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
LOL ....

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 3, 2014 - 12:11am PT
Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine?

Exposing troubling ties in the U.S. to overt Nazi and fascist protesters in Ukraine.

By Max Blumenthal

February 25, 2014 "Information Clearing House - As the Euromaidan protests in the Ukrainian capitol of Kiev culminated this week, displays of open fascism and neo-Nazi extremism became too glaring to ignore. Since demonstrators filled the downtown square to battle Ukrainian riot police and demand the ouster of the corruption-stained, pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovich, it has been filled with far-right streetfighting men pledging to defend their country’s ethnic purity.

White supremacist banners and Confederate flags were draped inside Kiev’s occupied City Hall, and demonstrators have hoisted Nazi SS and white power symbols over a toppled memorial to V.I. Lenin. After Yanukovich fled his palatial estate by helicopter, EuroMaidan protesters destroyed a memorial to Ukrainians who died battling German occupation during World War II. Sieg heil salutes and the Nazi Wolfsangel symbol have become an increasingly common site in Maidan Square, and neo-Nazi forces have established “autonomous zones” in and around Kiev.

An Anarchist group called AntiFascist Union Ukraine attempted to join the Euromaidan demonstrations but found it difficult to avoid threats of violence and imprecations from the gangs of neo-Nazis roving the square. “They called the Anarchists things like Jews, blacks, Communists,” one of its members said. “There weren’t even any Communists, that was just an insult.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37752.htm
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 3, 2014 - 12:15am PT
Democracy Murdered By Protest — Ukraine Falls To Intrigue and violence
February 23, 2014 | Categories: Articles & Columns | Tags: | Print This Article Print This Article

Democracy Murdered By Protest
Ukraine Falls To Intrigue and violence

Paul Craig Roberts

Who’s in charge? Certainly not the bought-and-paid-for-moderates that Washington and the EU hoped to install as the new government of Ukraine. The agreement that the Washington and EU supported opposition concluded with President Yanukovich to end the crisis did not last an hour. Even the former boxing champion, Vitaly Klitschko, who was riding high as an opposition leader until a few hours ago has been booed by the rioters and shoved aside. The newly appointed president by what is perhaps an irrelevant parliament, Oleksandr Turchynov, has no support base among those who overthrew the government. As the BBC reports, “like all of the mainstream opposition politicians, Mr. Turchynov is not entirely trusted or respected by the protesters in Kiev’s Independence Square.”

In western Ukraine the only organized and armed force is the ultra-nationalist Right Sector. From the way this group’s leaders speak, they assume that they are in charge. One of the group’s leaders, Aleksandr Muzychko, has pledged to fight against “Jews and Russians until I die.” Asserting the Right Sector’s authority over the situation, Muzychko declared that now that the democratically elected government has been overthrown, “there will be order and discipline” or “Right Sector squads will shoot the bastards on the spot.”

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/23/democracy-murdered-protest-ukraine-falls-intrigue-violence/
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
NATO boys are running around trying to figure out what to do with crazy Putin who's given them some 12 hours to get ready for some real action and check out the market how it responded to upcoming disaster .

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 3, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2014/03/02/why-obama-shouldnt-fall-for-putins-ukrainian-folly/ideas/nexus/


Why Obama Shouldn’t Fall for Putin’s Ukrainian Folly


Russia and the West Have Conspired to Tear the Country Apart. Both Sides Must Stand Down Now or Face the Consequences.



BY ANATOL LIEVEN|MARCH 2, 2014


We’re now witnessing the consequences of how grossly both Russia and the West have overplayed their hands in Ukraine. It is urgently necessary that both should find ways of withdrawing from some of the positions that they have taken. Otherwise, the result could very easily be civil war, Russian invasion, the partition of Ukraine, and a conflict that will haunt Europe for generations to come.

The only country that could possibly benefit from such an outcome is China. As with the invasion of Iraq and the horrible mismanagement of the campaign in Afghanistan, the U.S. would be distracted for another decade from the question of how to deal with its only competitive peer in the world today. Yet given the potentially appalling consequences for the world economy of a war in Ukraine, it is probable that even Beijing would not welcome such an outcome.

If there is one absolutely undeniable fact about Ukraine, which screams from every election and every opinion poll since its independence two decades ago, it is that the country’s population is deeply divided between pro-Russian and pro-Western sentiments. Every election victory for one side or another has been by a narrow margin, and has subsequently been reversed by an electoral victory for an opposing coalition.

What has saved the country until recently has been the existence of a certain middle ground of Ukrainians sharing elements of both positions; that the division in consequence was not clear cut; and that the West and Russia generally refrained from forcing Ukrainians to make a clear choice between these positions.

During George W. Bush’s second term as president, the U.S., Britain, and other NATO countries made a morally criminal attempt to force this choice by the offer of a NATO Membership Action Plan for Ukraine (despite the fact that repeated opinion polls had shown around two-thirds of Ukrainians opposed to NATO membership). French and German opposition delayed this ill-advised gambit, and after August 2008, it was quietly abandoned. The Georgian-Russian war in that month had made clear both the extreme dangers of further NATO expansion, and that the United States would not in fact fight to defend its allies in the former Soviet Union.

In the two decades after the collapse of the USSR, it should have become obvious that neither West nor Russia had reliable allies in Ukraine. As the demonstrations in Kiev have amply demonstrated, the “pro-Western” camp in Ukraine contains many ultra-nationalists and even neo-fascists who detest Western democracy and modern Western culture. As for Russia’s allies from the former Soviet establishment, they have extracted as much financial aid from Russia as possible, diverted most of it into their own pockets, and done as little for Russia in return as they possibly could.

Over the past year, both Russia and the European Union tried to force Ukraine to make a clear choice between them—and the entirely predictable result has been to tear the country apart. Russia attempted to draw Ukraine into the Eurasian Customs Union by offering a massive financial bailout and heavily subsidized gas supplies. The European Union then tried to block this by offering an association agreement, though (initially) with no major financial aid attached. Neither Russia nor the EU made any serious effort to talk to each other about whether a compromise might be reached that would allow Ukraine somehow to combine the two agreements, to avoid having to choose sides.

President Viktor Yanukovych’s rejection of the EU offer led to an uprising in Kiev and the western and central parts of Ukraine, and to his own flight from Kiev, together with many of his supporters in the Ukrainian parliament. This marks a very serious geopolitical defeat for Russia. It is now obvious that Ukraine as a whole cannot be brought into the Eurasian Union, reducing that union to a shadow of what the Putin administration hoped. And though Russia continues officially to recognize him, President Yanukovych can only be restored to power in Kiev if Moscow is prepared to launch a full-scale invasion of Ukraine and seize its capital by force.

The result would be horrendous bloodshed, a complete collapse of Russia’s relations with the West and of Western investment in Russia, a shattering economic crisis, and Russia’s inevitable economic and geopolitical dependency on China.

But Western governments, too, have put themselves in an extremely dangerous position. They have acquiesced to the overthrow of an elected government by ultra-nationalist militias, which have also chased away a large part of the elected parliament. This has provided a perfect precedent for Russian-backed militias in turn to seize power in the east and south of the country.

The West has stood by in silence while the rump parliament in Kiev abolished the official status of Russian and other minority languages, and members of the new government threatened publicly to ban the main parties that supported Yanukovych—an effort that would effectively disenfranchise around a third of the population.

After years of demanding that successive Ukrainian governments undertake painful reforms in order to draw nearer to the West, the West is now in a paradoxical position: If it wishes to save the new government from a Russian-backed counter-revolution, it will have to forget about any reforms that will alienate ordinary people, and instead give huge sums in aid with no strings attached. The EU has allowed the demonstrators in Kiev to believe that their actions have brought Ukraine closer to EU membership—but, if anything, this is now even further away than it was before the revolution.

In these circumstances, it is essential that both the West and Russia act with caution. The issue here is not Crimea. From the moment when the Yanukovych government in Kiev was overthrown, it was obvious that Crimea was effectively lost to Ukraine. Russia is in full military control of the peninsula with the support of a large majority of its population, and only a Western military invasion can expel it.

This does not mean that Crimea will declare independence. So far, the call of the Crimean parliament has been only for increased autonomy. It does mean, however, that Russia will decide the fate of Crimea when and as it chooses. For the moment, Moscow appears to be using Crimea, like Yanukovych, in order to influence developments in Ukraine as a whole.

It also seems unlikely that the government in Kiev will try to retake Crimea by force, both because this would lead to their inevitable defeat, and because even some Ukrainian nationalists have told me in private that Crimea was never part of historic Ukraine. They would be prepared to sacrifice it if that was the price of taking the rest of Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit.

But that is not true of important Ukrainian cities with significant ethnic Russian populations, such as Donetsk, Kharkov, and Odessa. The real and urgent issue now is what happens across the eastern and southern Ukraine, and it is essential that neither side initiates the use of force there. Any move by the new Ukrainian government or nationalist militias to overthrow elected local authorities and suppress anti-government demonstrations in these regions is likely to provoke a Russian military intervention. Any Russian military intervention in turn will compel the Ukrainian government and army (or at least its more nationalist factions) to fight.

The West must therefore urge restraint—not only from Moscow, but from Kiev as well. Any aid to the government in Kiev should be made strictly conditional on measures to reassure the Russian-speaking populations of the east and south of the country: respect for elected local authorities; restoration of the official status of minority languages; and above all, no use of force in those regions. In the longer run, the only way to keep Ukraine together may be the introduction of a new federal constitution with much greater powers for the different regions.

But that is for the future. For now, the overwhelming need is to prevent war. War in Ukraine would be an economic, political, and cultural catastrophe for Russia. In many ways, the country would never recover, but Russia would win the war itself. As it proved in August 2008, if Russia sees its vital interests in the former USSR as under attack, Russia will fight. NATO will not. War in Ukraine would therefore also be a shattering blow to the prestige of NATO and the European Union from which these organizations might never recover either.

A century ago, two groups of countries whose real common interests vastly outweighed their differences allowed themselves to be drawn into a European war in which more than 10 million of their people died and every country suffered irreparable losses. In the name of those dead, every sane and responsible citizen in the West, Russia, and Ukraine itself should now urge caution and restraint on the part of their respective leaders.

Anatol Lieven is a professor in the war studies department of King’s College London and a senior fellow of the New America Foundation. He is author of Ukraine and Russia: A Fraternal Rivalry.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Mar 3, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
Little off topic, but why does it seem all eastern European men only wear track pants?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 3, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
Track pants were in fashion in 1980-s and somehow stuck. They always have Adidas three stripes as an artifact of old days. Cheap too - chipper than jeans.

In Caucasus region people wear blazers all the time - like when herding sheep. Weird.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 3, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
This is what I was talking about.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

EDIT: Remember when Victoria Nuland (US State Dept) was talking to the Ukranian Ambassador on a hot-mic saying, "F*#k the EU"?

What do you think that was about? She was answering what they should do if the EU rejects their little plan.

vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 3, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
My guess anything anti-Russian will do for US. Nazis or not.

Due to Putin's intervention in Syria we are not supporting Al Qaeda there. Should we be thankful or not?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 3, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
Vlani, that's why people keep calling me a commie-sympathizer. It's knee-jerk anti-Russian crap.

I hate communists with a passion, but Putin and Russia are far from the Communists of the past. I actually fear the current US administration more.

Putin is just trying to do what's good for Russia and he does not like seeing the EU/US meddle in his yard. Putin did not start this. We did.
Messages 41 - 60 of total 258 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta