A lesson in water politics

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Messages 101 - 120 of total 177 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Feb 13, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Mm-k.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Feb 13, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
No, I read English just fine. You do not write clearly, and invite scrutinization.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Feb 13, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
You know what? Never mind. Just keep doin your thing. It adds a fascinating aspect to the dialogue.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 13, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
care to tell us the last vote you made for a rep who didnt think birth control was a sin?

A little overcooked, but solid point.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 13, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
Not that its germane to the topic, but ive voted for many that approve of birth control.

Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Feb 13, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
Read Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner. CA and most of the west wouldn't have be having a population explosion if things hadn't been done with the natural flow of water in the west.

moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Feb 13, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
I don't get you, rSin. Why are you so angry? Can we have a civilized discussion?

Andrzej
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 13, 2014 - 09:41pm PT
Obviously YOU dingus did not read Bob's link.

Bob's link too the ppic page ought to have calmed you down-- it points out very clearly what most folks here have been telling you, that the vast majority of water used in cali is used by agriculture and has nothing to do with population growth.

the boldfaced part of in your quote from the link comes from the book I keep trying to get folks to read, The Great Thirst.

Norris Hundley was the leading expert on water history in the western US and one of the leading experts on contemporary water law and policy. Read his frickin book if you want to try and say something informed on the topic. The book ought to be a starting point, rather than a Bible, but you can't even be a n00b if you don't do the beginner work.

I'm guessing that your fixation on urban population growth as the major problem stems from living on the east side-- the east side is indeed one of the few places in Cali where most of the water ends up in urban/residential useage, largely in LA basin. DWP is a huge, and much despised, presence on the East Side, and I can see how a local whose grip on the issue was largely shaped by that could reach the understandable, but erroneous, conclusion, that the Owens Valley experience was representative.

But the Owens case is the anomaly. For a start, only a tiny slice of water in the state of California ever came down that side of the Sierra Crest. The western slope is and always has been vastly more heavily watered, and most of that water goes to agriculture at subsidized prices. It gets turned into beef to feed the nation's obesity epidemic, and much of the rest gets exported to Chine in billions of tiny little almond-shaped packages.

We could easily quadruple California's population. That's not a happy prospect, for me, personally, but statistically it is the case. ANd that has been, traditionally, the way water change has gone--

The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Feb 13, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
it points out very clearly what most folks here have been telling you, that the vast majority of water used in cali is used by agriculture and has nothing to do with population growth.

Where is the final product of all that expanding thirsty agriculture ending up?

In the mouths/bellies of the increasing population... correct?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
I do know that a small extinctable Smelt is depriving Central Valley Farms of needed water.

Destroying the Central Valley farms is a sin. The smelt is expendable IMO. And there is no guarantee they will be destroyed.

There are simple solutions that lazy State Operators just won't spend the time on. It could be a win-win.
julton

climber
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:13pm PT
Where is the final product of all that expanding thirsty agriculture ending up?

In the mouths/bellies of the increasing population... correct?
Incorrect.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
I do know that a small extinctable Smelt is depriving Central Valley Farms of needed water

heh.


The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:26pm PT
Incorrect.

Really... where is all the produce going then.
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
I appreciate what you are explaining klk. I hadn't realized that even though my dad worked for state water resources for 30 years. We always lived on the west side and so I didn't have an appreciation for what goes on on the east side.

I believe the Chief is meaning not just california population growth, but world wide population growth. ( could be wrong about that ) Something we can't really do anything about.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
I believe the Chief is meaning not just california population growth, but world wide population growth...

Precisely.

70plus % of all California grown Agriculture/Produce is exported throughout the planet and consumed by, Humans as indicated by KLK.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
my dad worked for state water resources for 30 years

that's cool-- those were the glory years.

was he tech side? policy? admin?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
I remember back in the mid-80's when New Melones Reservoir was a brand new watershed addition. They even added awesome boat-ramps, stocked it with bass, catfish, trout, and other fish. Me and my Dad did okay on weekend trips to the young lake reeling in bass.

Now it's an awesome watershed that extends the reach of the Stanislaus River holding capacity that is a needed backup to Don Pedro Reservoir.

It extra holding capacity that only started in the mid-late 80's. Good idea!

Now if we could just have a couple of similar large, deep reservoirs between San Lois and Bakersfield, and as a result, feed the LA basin lakes, we'd be super solid. Dry years and wet years to overflow down stream to Southern holding 'tanks'.

Most eco-nuts hate reservoirs but they offer a lot. Water-sports, water (duh), wildlife access, and supply to farm lands.

No-brainer.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
Something we can't really do anything about.

Exactly.

It extra holding capacity that only started in the mid-late 80's. Good idea!

Now if we could just have a couple of similar large, deep reservoirs between San Lois and Bakersfield, and as a result, feed the LA basin lakes, we'd be super solid. Dry years and wet years to overflow down stream to Southern holding 'tanks'.

Mosy eco-nuts hate reservoirs but they offer a lot. Water-sports, water (duh), wildlife access, and supply to farm lands.

No-brainer.


Yup.

But instead of being proactive by funding and creating more of these, the state governor would rather have some bs "bullet train".

And the politically left inclined will keep crying foul on the part of the states agriculture industry, subsidized or not, that is a major player in feeding the world's growing population.

Politics, you bet.
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:51pm PT
He was an electrical engineer. He helped design the pumping plants at San Luis reservoir. Plus he helped design parts of the california aqueduct. He ended up in management and retired from being in charge of Lake Castaic, Pyramid Lake, and a few hundred miles of the aqueduct. He was being groomed to go to Sacramento, but had a heart attack in his early 50s and stayed in southern california.

I have a funny story about his work. At one point he was in management at San Luis reservoir when the state workers went on strike. In management he wasn't allowed to go on strike, though he supported their position. But many of the workers were ignorant of his support and we were harassed fairly often. I was attacked a couple of times and got my ass handed to me by groups of guys. But the funny part was that one day my dad got a call and it was from a worker threatening him. He hung up and a brick came flying through our living room window. Almost immediately after that we got another phone call and my dad answered it without giving the person a chance to speak. He cussed the guy out calling him an as#@&%e and saying that he was going to kick his ass. The guy calling was governor Jerry Brown.

klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 13, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
70plus % of all California grown Agriculture/Produce is exported throughout the planet and consumed by, Humans as indicated by KLK.

yes it is, but only because cali taxpayers subsidize it, and you have argued in this thread that we aren't subsidizing it enough-- that taxpayers ought to invest hundreds of billions more in building new reservoirs in unfavorable sites so that we can keep sending water at below-market-rates to china in the shape of almonds or to the obese in the shape of pre-formed hamburger patties from feedlot beef.

that seems pretty much insane to me. which is why no one else in california or even heaven help us washington dc is proposing that the way out of this debacle is to build more big reservoirs. not even the nunes proposal that dmt led with-- as an example of really dumbass political theater --proposed new major storage projects.

the mere tunnel/pump projects that jerry brown is pimping come in at 25 billion (and the study's author concedes that even that project is likely to come in at a much higher price tag for the simple construction). i don't know anyone who really believes that the tunnel plan could come in anywhere near 25billion new tax payer dollars.

we could have vastly higher population in and outside of california without any change in the water we currently have in a drought year. we just wouldn't have folks eating taxpayer subsidized burgers and almonds. the fantasy reservoirs that you and now bluering (heh) are demanding would cost an almost inconceivable sum-- probably trillions. and that's if there was water to fill them.


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